I don't see the value in spending big sums when the money is overspent and/or wasted. Klopp was saved from himself by a competent Director of Football overlaying the manager's targets with better ones. He was able to trust their judgement and get the likes of Salah (who he didn't want) instead of Brandt (who he did want). Ten Hag had free reign at United which is obviously a flawed system.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Why would Newcastle fans have stuck around though? Thought most of them would have left not long after the final whistle.
No, I was answering a question about how he spoke to the fans, and said his general demeanour of a fighting spirit was a positive. I then said he's broadly backed his players in public unless they've taken a royal pisstake.
You then came out and spoke broad things, which were mutually exclusive to the point I was making. I didn't address them because they had feck all to do with the point I was making.
You think Ten Hag's desire to want a more consistent partnership at the back was talking shite, but you're more than comfortable in talking shite assuming they 'must' have fallen out, because hey feck it, that has to be the only reason?
You got hit with facts. This is a ten Hag thread. I said that I get that you're ten Hag in what, but provided evidence as to why that's a ridiculous stance. I expanded on the initial point about him not publicly criticising players. You ignored the rest because there wasn't a good counter argument.
He made up some bollocks about Evans giving the team more balance, which was a load of crap. You know it deep down. He dropped Varane for weeks. There's no smoke without fire. You're not dumb.
I'll avoid future interactions with you. Time waster.
I fear for some of you lot if he does stay.
I'd just retire from watching football for a few years.
That's an important outlier Erik has categorically failed his minimalistic responsibilities as a manager this season to such a bad extent that the hierarchy could sack him for that element alone (depletion of standards). Fans have to remember that Erik is an employee on 9 million a year, he's 100% accountable.
Additionally, it's funny to find many comparing Arteta and Klopp's seasons through time but not resources. Arteta a rookie manager when reaching the 400 million mark (net) had Arsenal challenging last season and 600+ has them pushing city to the wire. It's not a team littered with world class talent, the manager built a system that the players are successful in.
If context is the most fundamental element then the expectation next season for Erik should be to challenge for the league in any event United spend close to 200 million. He would be the most backed manager from a financial standpoint, that has to strongly resonate with some plausibility for the team and clubs development.
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That could be argued, but at the same time, this spending was done after EtH himself fancied such a role, asked to sign players he wanted/coached, and was not willing to work with Rangnick, whom in theory should have helped him in that role.
While I think that he fecked up, the bulk of criticism there should go for Arnold and Murtough who abdicated their responsibilities. The moment EtH asked to be in charge of transfers (and he asked based in the reports of the interview back then), was the moment he should have been thanked for the interview and removed from the candidate pool.
Our form this whole season has been really bad, even finishing 8th would be a over achievement based on how we have performed this season.
I was ETH in but its very hard to defend such poor performances over such a sustained period of time.
Our injuries do not give him a pass this season, he should be good enough to adapt to injuries and find a way for us to play consistent football but he really has not done this at all.
I'm still torn on whether to fully blame ETH or fully blame the players for being utter tosh under most managers.
I think we underestimate just how poor our squad is, a lot of these players are not as good to compete over a whole season.
Changing the manager will not change that so we need a complete overhaul of players and then we can discuss what to do with ETH.
I was ETH in but its very hard to defend such poor performances over such a sustained period of time.
Our injuries do not give him a pass this season, he should be good enough to adapt to injuries and find a way for us to play consistent football but he really has not done this at all.
I'm still torn on whether to fully blame ETH or fully blame the players for being utter tosh under most managers.
I think we underestimate just how poor our squad is, a lot of these players are not as good to compete over a whole season.
Changing the manager will not change that so we need a complete overhaul of players and then we can discuss what to do with ETH.
Only on a Man Utd forum would we be debating whether to keep him. To be honest i think we just like to argue for the sake it because otherwise we would be bored. At any club of similar stature he'd be long gone. Even midtable teams aren't terrified of sacking their manager. Leicester sacked Ranieri despite him pulling off one of the greatest pl wins in history.
When a manager gets sacked we still feel bad even if it's the right decision. It's like blowing a puppy's face off with a shotgun. I mean, sure, it's normally really easy to do but imagine if that puppy gave you a speech moments beforehand about begging teams to win and saying 'heuh?", whilst sounding more and more like an extra in District 9 as he went on? I don't know about you but I'd take a few extra seconds before finally splashing that little doggos brains against the barn wall.
Bascially what I'm trying to say is that we're too nice.
shot up to 25%
It's kind of funny when you realize how short sighted and short-termist people can be, especially when one of the popular argument is to think and judge long term.
Unless he manages to seriously turn it around, he won't last long. If he manages to turn it around and is here in a-few years time, then great.
That's why your dog looks at you sideways.
I was talking about how he protected the players. I ignored the rest because it wasn't relevant to my point. I'm not trying to defend shit - I'm in agreement the stats are bad
You can't just bring in points unrelated to what I'm saying and then get angry I don't address them. If you want to move goalposts and talk about something else, then we can do it - but stick to the point being discussed in the meantime. It's really not difficult to do.
He actually said he needed his players to be fit and available, and we know Varane can't stay fit if games are every 3 days. Do better next time.He made up some bollocks about Evans giving the team more balance, which was a load of crap. You know it deep down. He dropped Varane for weeks. There's no smoke without fire. You're not dumb.
I'll avoid future interactions with you. Time waster.
That was a regular last home game speech to thank the fans. Says nothing about his future.
Which I don't think anyone should blames a manager for doing here, given how broken and shite the structure is at the club. Klopp outright rejected us because we were Disney Land. Truth be told if we hired Tuchel or Enrique or Xavi I would have been more excited post Ole if they said they will take charge of transfers. We had a decade of bad transfers otherwise, and we just sacked our global scouts so I had no faith in the club operating properly without managerial input.
I agree with your general sentiment. It's worth noting however Ten Hag didn't want to be solely in charge of transfers, he wanted an equal veto. I agree this is unreasonable if there's a proper structure in place (like Edwards at Liverpool built). That's not really the case here.
End of the season is a few weeks away, so that's not ages in my book. Always far easier to sort out such things outside the season and near impossible to get a manager while he's in the middle of a season. Unless you know better and have some evidence of these top level managers who left midseason to join another club?
I think we would improve next season under ten Hag. It'd be impossible not to. But I don't ever see us winning a PL title under him. That's why I'd move on.
He doesn't deserve to survive this season. No manager should. I posted it earlier, but a negative GD in the league across 51 PL games is possibly the most damning stat of them all.
13/14, 18/19 and 21/22 were rough. Dire stuff. This is a new level of failure.
The thing with pro-EtH arguments is that one could construct a very similar line of argumentation in favor of Murtough:
1. By all accounts he was successful in all the jobs before being DoF at United.
2. We should have waited until Berrada starts and let him evaluate the existing DoF first and whether he needs to be replaced.
3. If we say that EtH is worth keeping then Murtough‘s key decision (hiring EtH) cannot be judged yet.
4. Yes he may have screwed the responsibilities on recruitment side, but that is more on Arnold who should not have allowed him to do so.
5. We should have seen how Murtough works with having a world class head of recruitment and chief scout before judging him.
6. The inflated fees are not his fault, if the club does not need the money and the player is not ready to strike and push for a move - you are not negotiating a low fee even if you are the best negotiator in the world.
7. We were 3rd and won a cup last season after a transfer window where he played a key role, and the signings contributed to our season greatly. If EtH gets so much credit for that season so should Murtough
8. If EtH relies on medical staff assessments and they are to blame but not him, then same with Murtough who relies on other people in assessments of transfer targets, and if they screw up he is not to blame. He is just doing his best to sign the players other people identified.
9. He is not to blame for the incompetence of Woodword and Arnold above him, and below him nobody could have predicted that EtH would struggle to such an extent, the injuries etc etc etc
10. it is also quite challenging to get a new better DoF as we see with Ashworth.
and so on. Yet everyone knows that most of those arguments don’t hold water and Murtough was not good enough and rightfully replaced.
Yeah, LvG said something similar in 2016.
"I want to thank you for the unconditional support. Wherever we have played, however things have gone on the field, you never let us down."
"Thank you for that and we will bring the FA Cup home to you. You deserve it. Thank you!"
Nah mate, my dog has more important things on his mind.
He does seem to keep one eye on you.
If only murder was legal. I'd apply to be the executioner.
True but it could be Ineos wanting to keep their cards close to their chest. The last time we were in this situation the Glazers were leaking fir months that Jose would be taking over. The way Van Gaal was treated was very bad optics for the club. Its possible Ineos are wary of that and want to be seen as doing things the right way this time.
Who knows though.
It was the Newcastle fans.
This is from the Norwegian United fan club:
No, not at all. The United fans did not boo.
So I stood on the Sir Bobby Charlton stand myself, and looked over at the 100 or so remaining Newcastle supporters who took the chance to bow. In the United camp there was massive support. If there were any United fans joining in the booing of the Newcastle fans, there were certainly none near where I was sitting, and there must have been very, very few.
Instead, I witnessed a unison "Erik ten Hag's red and white army", echoing over the Stretford End and the nearest stands as the manager approached.
So many of our problems seem to trace back to the decision made at some point last year about wanting to be the best transition team in the world.
Too much is made about how we played after the league cup last year, that was mostly down to fatigue - we never saw the insane chaos football that we've seen this season.
The 'transition' focus seemed to have been made in conjunction with the old hierarchy. Perhaps Wilcox & co. have rightly determined that it's a ludicrous strategy and tasked him with setting up for more control.
It's only been a couple of games, but you're starting to see that come through a little bit more. If he can demonstrate that he can deliver what he new footballing hierarchy want, maybe he will be secure going into next season.
Too much is made about how we played after the league cup last year, that was mostly down to fatigue - we never saw the insane chaos football that we've seen this season.
The 'transition' focus seemed to have been made in conjunction with the old hierarchy. Perhaps Wilcox & co. have rightly determined that it's a ludicrous strategy and tasked him with setting up for more control.
It's only been a couple of games, but you're starting to see that come through a little bit more. If he can demonstrate that he can deliver what he new footballing hierarchy want, maybe he will be secure going into next season.
Where would they be today if they had sacked Arteta then?
I don't think so. By all accounts Bayern are still trying to keep Tuchel who are just finishing their first trophyless season for 12 years.
With a squad that has obvious glaring holes (some fixed a bit in the winter, but still just a bit), reached a CL semifinal and has underlying stats in the league that mean Bayern would win it hadn't they been unlucky and especially if Leverkusen simply hadn't been as lucky.
Comparing that to a team that is lucky to have as many points as it has and embarassed itself in the CL is a bit stupid honestly.
We are not a serious fanbaseshot up to 25%
This is a key point for me. Arteta clearly had a very fixed idea of what he wanted to do and successfully built a system (although with the assistance of a better structure than Ten Hag has enjoyed) around players who could do it. Arteta must have had a hand in that in terms of identifying players.
I personally have very significant doubts, based on the poor recruitment so far, whether ETH can do that. More so, I think giving that option to a manager with a single year left on his contract and risking him buying more players the next manager may not want.
Whilst this is a fair point is seems to assume that if given time Ten Hag will be good enough. What evidence are we seeing that he's ever going to be good enough?
What has he done on the pitch this season to warrant more time?
do you think missing out on the title, against a team that's gone the whole season unbeaten, and being knocked out from CL semi-finals, arguably due to refereeing cock-ups, is the same/similar/comparable to being 8th, with negative GD, 31 points off the top, and finishing last - and again with negative GD - in a CL group that included Copenhagen and Galatasaray?
If he ends up staying as manager for next season he should not be allowed to spend or have a say in what players we spend money on this summer.
Huh? Explain yourself now. We've had far more decisions go against us this season than for us so I would argue we could've had more points actually.
We've really only had the Onana massive one in the first game where he should've had the red card that's actually gone in our favour.
We've had penalties not given, had penalties given against us that weren't pens in the weeks prior and after, red cards for stuff other players didn't even get booked.
I think people just have blind hatred towards the manager at the moment which is fine, I'll let them sulk for now but they need to get back on board next season
I don't think its in any way comparable. Bayern has sacked managers who topped the league but sacked them because their football wasn't attractive enough. Leverkursen are having a freak season and the board can see that
In fairness our squad isn't comparable to theirs either, there's no point in making a comparison in terms of the performance of the teams when pretty much all of their players are better than ours. If Tuchel had deliberately decided to play a system all season that doesn't make any sense and had no chance of working then that would be more of a comparison.
Yes but you're not looking at the big picture. This is who we are at the moment. And if we start sacking the manager all the time we'll just end up another Everton/Watford/Burnley.
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