Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[VP89]

Awesome. So now you’re quoting McClaren saying that ETH was focused on process more than results. How he taught him that winning is important and that results matter, winning matters. It seems Ten Hag has decided that process is more important than results because we aren’t getting results and the tactics are abominable.

Watch Steve McClaren's interview - he is citing the dutch philosophy to be focused on the right style even in isolated games where it's a stalemate. It's astounding thats the conclusion you drew from it and literally moved goalposts in what we're actually debating.

Not sure if you’ve managed people in a business before, but delegation of duties is normal. Ten Hag delegating shit tactics for other people to implement is still shit management and mostly, if not all on the head of Ten Hag.

Right, so if it's normal then why are we suggesting he's suddenly a bad coach and everything is on him? Would you then agree that Owen and Scholes are low IQ pundits who lazily assumed that Ten Hag must be doing all the coachin

g, and McClaren is sitting twiddling his thumbs?
Look, we’ve locked horns before, and that’s fine. You’re all over the Caf in support of Ten Hag. I only ask that you apply the same standards to yourself as you do to Scholes and Owen. As it stands now, it looks more and more likely that Ten Hag will finish this season with the lowest PL point total of any United manager ever. He’s probably going to be sacked. Your posts in this thread are looking more and more delusional. My advice: own it. Say you were wrong about Ten Hag.

All of this is in good fun. Not trying to offend anyone. My apologies if I came across that way.

It doesn't matter what we've debated in the past, the point I've made is Owens and Scholes are ill informed pundits who have next to no knowledge on *modern day* tactics, coaching, or the european footballing landscape. If they did they'd be doing more than making cameos on BT Sport for 10 minutes here and there.

Whether Ten Hag has the right idea on the current tactics is a separate matter, I agree he's trying to implement something too ambitious. It could work with the right players, but it certainly doesn't with this bunch and that's a separate debate where we'd both land on an agreeable conclusion that he'd be worthy of a sack for such mistakes.

 

[VP89]

I have a soft spot for Scholes as I once met him and had a chance to watch him play 5 aside very very close up. He was playing with all time legends and BY FAR the best on the pitch. They played a local side that I had connections to as part of a promotional tour. Maybe that’s why I took offense.

Funnily enough I've been really fortunate to meet both Scholes and Ole, and I've been extremely frank in their underperformance for their relative roles (not to them, admittedly too star struck)
You have to seperate art form artist - as players they were amazing, as people they are humble and great. As a pundit and manager relatively, they are basically underqualified. If Scholes sticks to player opinions I'm fine. Like how he gave a segment on Kroos, I enjoyed listening to it.

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry, the cult comment wasn’t meant for you. I know you aren’t.

I have a soft spot for Scholes as I once met him and had a chance to watch him play 5 aside very very close up. He was playing with all time legends and BY FAR the best on the pitch. They played a local side that I had connections to as part of a promotional tour. Maybe that’s why I took offense.

Scholes is one of my favorite player I have more than a soft spot for him as a player, I like his insight when it comes to midfield play but if he says something that isn't substantiated and also base it on context that isn't relevant then I will question it. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong but I will question his take based on what he said.

 

[DSG]

Funnily enough I've been really fortunate to meet both Scholes and Ole, and I've been extremely frank in their underperformance for their relative roles (not to them, admittedly too star struck)
You have to seperate art form artist - as players they were amazing, as people they are humble and great. As a pundit and manager relatively, they are basically underqualified.

We are all fans at the end of the day. I’ll always respect Ole and thank him for coming into the club when there was a lot of poison. He wasn’t good enough in the end, but for me, those were the best years post SAF. No, we weren’t playing like Barca or Bayern but there was a lot of positivity. Of course, his last season was awful, but I think the job just got too big for him.

I think many of us — I’m guilty of it too — get into seeing things as black and white, especially over the internet. Really things are more nuanced, more shades of gray.

 

[stevoc]

So if we've had 20-30 bouts of illness then how many have the other sides had?

On all the injury tables we've hovered between 4th and 5th most of the season.

 

[Lentwood]

My question was more about what made him likeable as a person since you mentioned that you still liked him as a person. And what made you give up on him.

These are genuine questions the likeable part is something that I can't relate to but I'm still curious to know why people see it differently. And on the Football side of things I'm wondering what was the thing that made turn against him. Personally I was perplexed for the entirety of the preseason, I was perplexed during the latter part of the previous season but assumed that the players were just exhausted and maybe not being as diligent as they should since one of ETH's flaw was his lack of squad rotation. But during preseason we had similar issues that were just exacerbated by strange positionings, I also blamed the players and put it on them not being familiar with the new setup. I only realized that it wasn't the player when during a game I saw Hojlund take instructions from Van der Gaag, Martial and Hojlund aren't similar players, they don't have the same background, they don't have the same tendencies so it made no sense that both would do the same peculiar things without it coming from the same source.

I know that some people turned against ETH due to results, others because they aren't entertained or maybe his press conferences. To me it's because I can't make any sense of our tactics, no manager has ever baffled me more than ETH this season.

I turned against him because my criteria for 'success' in a United manager right now is not necessarily results, its performances, improving players and implementing and coaching the team effectively.

I appreciate those things take time, so, for example, if you search my post history, you will see I maintained that Arteta was doing a good job at Arsenal even when 80% of people were ridiculing him. I could see he was slowly but surely getting rid of the bad apples and building a youthful, high-energy, well-coached side.

I had hoped EtH could do something similar, but last season there was only limited evidence of progress, his signings are confusing and he doesn't seem to understand what's required in the PL / at the highest level.

As you say, the pre-season was hugely concerning and to be honest, I think the Wolves game was the moment I actually thought "this isn't going to work". I wanted to give him some time, though, because it was clear he was trying to build something a bit different...but after numerous poor results and even worse performances, it was evident his ideas are unworkable.

 

[JPRouve]

I turned against him because my criteria for 'success' in a United manager right now is not necessarily results, its performances, improving players and implementing and coaching the team effectively.

I appreciate those things take time, so, for example, if you search my post history, you will see I maintained that Arteta was doing a good job at Arsenal even when 80% of people were ridiculing him. I could see he was slowly but surely getting rid of the bad apples and building a youthful, high-energy, well-coached side.

I had hoped EtH could do something similar, but last season there was only limited evidence of progress, his signings are confusing and he doesn't seem to understand what's required in the PL / at the highest level.

As you say, the pre-season was hugely concerning and to be honest, I think the Wolves game was the moment I actually thought "this isn't going to work". I wanted to give him some time, though, because it was clear he was trying to build something a bit different...but after numerous poor results and even worse performances, it was evident his ideas are unworkable.

Thanks. That's pretty much how I came to a similar conclusion.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Nothing really new in this article but Cox is saying Ten Hag lacks the confidence and conviction to implement his style and that any success he has enjoyed at Man Utd was when he reverted back to counter attack football after the terrible start last season. He also reported our goal difference was poor for a third place team last season, so that could be a trend. Finally, he says there is little point to persisting with Ten Hag. Cox is a tactic writer and even he can't see what Ten Hag is trying to formulate.

 

[Brophs]

Reminds me of the Sunday Supplement where every journalist’s opinion about who was a good player seemed to be almost entirely based on who had allowed themselves to be interviewed the previous week. Bonus points for picking the journo from the train station and being polite to staff in front of them.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Nothing really new in this article but Cox is saying Ten Hag lacks the confidence and conviction to implement his style and that any success he has enjoyed at Man Utd was when he reverted back to counter attack football after the terrible start last season. He also reported our goal difference was poor for a third place team last season, so that could be a trend. Finally, he says there is little point to persisting with Ten Hag. Cox is a tactic writer and even he can't see what Ten Hag is trying to formulate.

I think his reputation as a tactician travelled faster than his actual ability in that department. His lack of charisma probably helped in that regard because journalists and fans had to invent a reason for why he was so highly rated when he got the job.

The reality is that he happened to arrive at Ajax when they had a generational crop of young talent and they could go harder in the champions league as they had little energy expenditure in the Dutch league.

 

[stefan92]

Reminds me of the Sunday Supplement where every journalist’s opinion about who was a good player seemed to be almost entirely based on who had allowed themselves to be interviewed the previous week. Bonus points for picking the journo from the train station and being polite to staff in front of them.

Neville doing Neville things (=never calling for a manager to be sacked). That's all.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

Reminds me of the Sunday Supplement where every journalist’s opinion about who was a good player seemed to be almost entirely based on who had allowed themselves to be interviewed the previous week. Bonus points for picking the journo from the train station and being polite to staff in front of them.

Most of our ex players and legends are insufferable off the pitch.

I preferred it when we didn't know what their true personalities were like off the pitch. With the rise of social media post 2010, we now get more insights into their character/personality.

Sky used to be full of ex Liverpool players as pundits. Most of Fergie's ex players either failed in management or went into media work, so we're now stuck listening to them on Sky Sports and TNT Sports.

Neville is one of the more annoying ones to listen to when it comes to United. He covers other topics well.

 

[Berbaclass]

Nothing really new in this article but Cox is saying Ten Hag lacks the confidence and conviction to implement his style and that any success he has enjoyed at Man Utd was when he reverted back to counter attack football after the terrible start last season. He also reported our goal difference was poor for a third place team last season, so that could be a trend. Finally, he says there is little point to persisting with Ten Hag. Cox is a tactic writer and even he can't see what Ten Hag is trying to formulate.

Good article.

 

[mythz]

Can't wait for another press conference with smile, confidence and alot of charisma from eth.

Our positive minded manager

 

[Berbaclass]

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Haven't read the article so maybe he says this anyway.. But with Arteta (like Klopp etc) results weren't great in the first year or two, but you could see what they were trying to do. There were seeds.

Not seen it with Ten Hag since January 2023 now.

I also see no obvious replacement who I'd be desperate to get. So it's a tough situation. I've started to think Potter will get it. Just based on that he seems to fit the profile they're after.

 

[RuudTom83]

Players/Managers adjusting to the poor standards at the club is the common reoccurrence the last 10 years.

I have no confidence in anyone at the club at this stage tbh.

 

[VP89]

Haven't read the article so maybe he says this anyway.. But with Arteta (like Klopp etc) results weren't great in the first year or two, but you could see what they were trying to do. There were seeds.

There were no seeds for the first 18 months under Ten Hag. I dislike the revisionism here. We only saw what he was about when he finished 5th (still outside of top 4).

 

[Judas]

If I could see what Ten Hag's plan was, a style, an improvement, an argument could be made to keep him, looking perhaps at the injuries he's had to deal with as a workable excuse. But he's shown such naivety, such poor basic managerial behaviours, poor in game management and just baffling team and tactical selections. Why would anyone want to give him another punt at it?

 

[NLunited]

Is that accurate? I’m sure we are into 60+ injuries for the season I read somewhere. Might be imagining though.

We don‘t have a squad to deal with it and most of our injuries are in the back line.

Any attempt to minimize the impact of the injuries is silly imo. We have been in deep shiit.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

There were no seeds for the first 18 months under Ten Hag. I dislike the revisionism here. We only saw what he was about when he finished 5th (still outside of top 4).

Sorry I'm lost. Did you mean to put another name other than Ten Hag? Ten Hag's never finished 5th.

 

[Berbaclass]

If I could see what Ten Hag's plan was, a style, an improvement, an argument could be made to keep him, looking perhaps at the injuries he's had to deal with as a workable excuse. But he's shown such naivety, such poor basic managerial behaviours, poor in game management and just baffling team and tactical selections. Why would anyone want to give him another punt at it?

I don't think it's a lack of style that's the issue it's more that were not good at what is being asked at all due to many factors.

The style of man-to-man pressing, directness, and quick vertical transitions require players with lots more mobility/physicality.

 

[Judas]

We don‘t have a squad to deal with it and most of our injuries are in the back line.

Any attempt to minimize the impact of the injuries is silly imo. We have been in deep shiit.

Even before the injuries (although they've seemingly been going on all season) we never really seemed to have a plan or identity for the new season, did we? We finished last season pretty meekly, then just carried that into the new season.

 

[NLunited]

Sorry I'm lost. Did you mean to put another name other than Ten Hag? Ten Hag's never finished 5th.

He was referring to Arteta.

 

[The_Midfielder]

If I could see what Ten Hag's plan was, a style, an improvement, an argument could be made to keep him, looking perhaps at the injuries he's had to deal with as a workable excuse. But he's shown such naivety, such poor basic managerial behaviours, poor in game management and just baffling team and tactical selections. Why would anyone want to give him another punt at it?

He will surpass De Boer ' reign in England if he is given 1 more season.. I feel

 

[Berbaclass]

We don‘t have a squad to deal with it and most of our injuries are in the back line.

Any attempt to minimize the impact of the injuries is silly imo. We have been in deep shiit.

Yes I agree, it impacts the very foundation of what we're trying to do.

Martinez alone is a huge loss as Cox alluded to in his article.

 

[Berbaclass]

He will surpass De Boer ' reign in England if he is given 1 more season.. I feel

That's a bit of a silly thing to say. He's been immeasurably better than De Boer.

 

[Judas]

I don't think it's a lack of style that's the issue it's more that were not good at what is being asked at all due to many factors.

The style of man-to-man pressing, directness, and quick vertical transitions require players with lots more mobility/physicality.

True. But then why do even his own signings not fit the football he potentially wants to play? There just seems to be a total disconnect to the stuff he talks about and what we see on the pitch. It's been that way since he arrived, and barely improved apart from a brief purple patch. I just don't think the players buy what he's selling, rightly or wrongly, be it they're too stupid, or he just lacks the managerial ability and/or charisma to inspire.

 

[VP89]

Sorry I'm lost. Did you mean to put another name other than Ten Hag? Ten Hag's never finished 5th.

No you mentioned with Arteta there were seeds of what they were trying to do. In reality they looked no better (and arguably worse) than Emery for almost 2 years.

 

[Berbaclass]

True. But then why do even his own signings not fit the football he potentially wants to play? There just seems to be a total disconnect to the stuff he talks about and what we see on the pitch. It's been that way since he arrived, and barely improved apart from a brief purple patch. I just don't think the players buy what he's selling, rightly or wrongly, be it they're too stupid, or he just lacks the managerial ability and/or charisma to inspire.

That's the issue yeah, I can't answer that, unfortunately. Really poor decision-making in that aspect.

 

[NLunited]

There is a style ( ) and it looked promising to me. It still does if we could do it. That‘s the problem isn‘t it?

It‘s mad Hag has persisted with it not having the personnel fit to do it. Games like against Palace damage the morale and confidence.

Besides, I think we need to be tactically flexible as a matter of principle.

 

[Juice Juiced]

Scouce spiting cnut and G Nev are morons and dinosaurs. IDK how people can watch them.

 

[NLunited]

Even before the injuries (although they've seemingly been going on all season) we never really seemed to have a plan or identity for the new season, did we? We finished last season pretty meekly, then just carried that into the new season.

Pretty much. There was a plan, but we struggled right away with it. Consistency was never achieved. We looked good in spells, never a whole game.

 

[matt10000]

We are all fans at the end of the day. I’ll always respect Ole and thank him for coming into the club when there was a lot of poison. He wasn’t good enough in the end, but for me, those were the best years post SAF. No, we weren’t playing like Barca or Bayern but there was a lot of positivity. Of course, his last season was awful, but I think the job just got too big for him.

I think many of us — I’m guilty of it too — get into seeing things as black and white, especially over the internet. Really things are more nuanced, more shades of gray.

about fifty…

 

[Judas]

There is a style ( ) and it looked promising to me. It still does if we could do it. That‘s the problem isn‘t it?

It‘s mad Hag has persisted with it not having the personnel fit to do it. Games like against Palace damage the morale and confidence.

Besides, I think we need to be tactically flexible as a matter of principle.

But he doesn't have anywhere close to the players he needs to make it work, it's just woeful management. It doesn't work, his plan has failed. The best moments this season have all come in total Chaos Ball matches with no real rhythm and just football mayhem.

I don't think he's anywhere closer to understanding the PL than when he arrived, and that's mental.

 

[Maticmaker]

If I could see what Ten Hag's plan was, a style, an improvement, an argument could be made to keep him, looking perhaps at the injuries he's had to deal with as a workable excuse. But he's shown such naivety, such poor basic managerial behaviours, poor in game management and just baffling team and tactical selections. Why would anyone want to give him another punt at it?

I would agree entirely with your comments and would add that I am not even sure ETH himself wants to stay on.

In fact its even possible he will be needed to stay on because the 'sh** shifting' at OT has not been done yet, and Sir Jim and the new team haven't really started to move ..yet, and will still need a scapegoat to fire somewhere down the line.
If a 'fluke' win over City in the FA Cup occurs (not entirely out of the question given the run of luck we've had in the competition this year) I think Erik will stay and the real slog begins next season.

We are way down the 'road to hell paved with good intentions' and don't see any light in the distance.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

There were no seeds for the first 18 months under Ten Hag. I dislike the revisionism here. We only saw what he was about when he finished 5th (still outside of top 4).

There were. He made them better defensively.

During the 18/19 season, Arsenal conceded 51 goals from 38 PL games under Emery.

When Arteta took control in late December 2019, Arsenal had conceded 27 PL goals from 17 PL games under Emery. They only conceded 21 goals from the next 21 games with Arteta in charge. 2 clean sheets under Emery vs 8 under Arteta.

They then only conceded 39 goals the following season. 20/21 season.

They then started to evolve in terms of attacking during the 5th place season. 21/22 season.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

No you mentioned with Arteta there were seeds of what they were trying to do. In reality they looked no better (and arguably worse) than Emery for almost 2 years.

You wrote ' There were no seeds for the first 18 months under Ten Hag' - so I wasn't sure

In fairness, I don't know about the first 18months exactly but I remember when Arsenal fans were calling for Arteta's head and demanding he be sacked, I was thinking 'I hope they do' because I felt it was going to click - which it has.

Maybe it'll click with Ten Hag but I don't see it

 

[VP89]

You wrote ' There were no seeds for the first 18 months under Ten Hag' - so I wasn't sure

In fairness, I don't know about the first 18months exactly but I remember when Arsenal fans were calling for Arteta's head and demanding he be sacked, I was thinking 'I hope they do' because I felt it was going to click - which it has.

Maybe it'll click with Ten Hag but I don't see it

Ha sorry mate, I was being silly with my wording, clearly!

 

[Berbaclass]

There were. He made them better defensively.

During the 18/19 season, Arsenal conceded 51 goals from 38 PL games under Emery.

When Arteta took control in late December 2019, Arsenal had conceded 27 PL goals from 17 PL games under Emery. They only conceded 21 goals from the next 21 games with Arteta in charge. 2 clean sheets under Emery vs 8 under Arteta.

They then only conceded 39 goals the following season. 20/21 season.

They then started to evolve in terms of attacking during the 5th place season. 21/22 season.

Ten Hag made us defensively solid last season, right?