Would 4-0 loss v Palace classify as “meltdown”
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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It sure seems like it is entirely a defence of ETH!
So the entire point is given this he should be adapting his tactics to ensure that the back 4 is given extra protection instead of exposing it, this is what the ETH excuse-ists seem to forget,
we all accept that there have been injuries, we could all forgive results and performances based solely on that, but what is so damning is his inability to change his tactics to the best effect, to stupidly and stubbornly stick to effectively what is a 4-1-5 system with a high press,
If we were just analysing the Crystal Palace win you have a point but for the majority of the season we have had at least 2 recognised CBs playing, and McT
Would 4-0 loss v Palace classify as “meltdown”
Not to mention it came off the back of drawing 1-1 at home to... Burnley. I've never seen a manager so finished but continue on. Not even Ole at the end, and that dragged on.
I'd be happy to use injuries as an excuse to a point, but virtually every team in the league has outplayed us at least once this season and that's not even exaggerating. The performances have been as bad as it gets for a club our size.
I wasn't part of the conversation, but this has been my consistent view on Ten Hag as well. I've never had a problem in not being pragmatic. I feel like many posters reflexively switch their views between "do whatever it takes to win" and "our style of play needs to be progressive like Klopp or Pep (somewhere in between)."
Having said that, that still doesn't mean I believe in his ideal way. There is no point in sticking with him when his style has such obvious flaws, and his talent ID that would help him realize his process (I don't believe that) isn't worth believing in.
What right players (not even specific players, but player profiles) could possibly make his system work? There is no compactness, which every top side that plays great pleasing football values. Compactness is important in transition. It is important for the press, and important when defending in general.
Furthermore, if getting his system right was so important to him and he doesn't care about results (I'm not against this view), why does he continue to play players like Rashford, McTominay, Maguire, etc...? Either they have no future under his new system that he believes so highly in, or he really wants to keep them, which would contradict realizing his ideal way of playing. Rashford doesn't help the press at all. For a side that has such huge gaps in midfield and therefore less players for the opposition to find their way out of the pressing maze, he plays someone that compromises the press.
As you believe having better players that can pass the ball under pressure is so important for his style to be realized as that would mean less counter attacks against United, why does he continue to play McTominay? He's so adamant about long term results, yet persists with a player whose only goal is to give you short term results? He doesn't fit either.
Maguire is so slow that defending transitions under a more compact side, is suicide. Yet he plays Maguire. So he must really like defending deep. In which case, which midfielders could you possibly get that would make those large gaps less of a problem? Even the most athletic players could not help all that much with that much space.
Even if you give him the right profiles, why would you believe he would recognize which players are the best fits when his team selections or transfers have never proven or prioritized his system over short term results? I've seen McTominay with the ball at a point in the match where numerical superiority is supposed to be used to our advantage, yet with his skills he doesn't have the ability to make use of that. That is very easy to see, and either he didn't prioritize that aspect in a footballer's skills or he can't see what's obvious.
Lastly, I'm assuming you believe it takes years to coach players to a standard that can take advantage of his system that's in its early stages of its realization. I don't believe this. I've seen many coaches coach their side to a standard that gets their team playing good football. Klopp for example got his early Liverpool sides immediately playing his style that was immediately seeing good returns in performances. Not results, but performances. Results followed years after with the right players.
There is no reason for me to believe he has the ability to coach to a standard that would realize his system at United. Ajax can't become an example of that coaching because he's had access to those types of players at United, and he couldn't get it done. So either it was a fluke or it was due to being given a runway that is the Eredivisie that gave his players enough leeway that would allow them to grow in that system over time to then translate that to the Champions League. Reason being, he's had many former players at United like DVB, and he's had many players who have done their business at a higher level than the Eredivisie like Sancho compared to someone like Ziyech or Tadic.
This seems like a huge gap to bridge logically. This is why I don't understand how anyone can still believe in his project.
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Fake news. There is no way Agassi carries a tennis racquet around with him at all times.
TBF he was happy to allow both Maguire and McT to leave. They both rated themselves sufficiently highly to turn West Ham (who'd just come off winning a European trophy and had a manager who would have played them most weeks) down, and players have inordinate power these days to the point where they'll only leave a contract for a hefty pay-off at best or do a Bogarde at worst. Cue the injuries and Maguire is the most experienced pro and can only play deep ( we've seen him on the turn when playing a high line...).
I agree that if he was 'flexible' enough to turn to Scott for a plan B on various occasions after that, then it's strange that he's not more adaptable when Shaw's out and Martinez is out and that midfield space is hence vacant upon the CMs following his instructions to overload. Experimenting with it a few times, getting burned, and using this as evidence to SJR and the rest that he needs more suitable Cms as well as LB cover/a CB shake-up would be one thing, but he's pursuing into madness and probable sacking....
No way Tiger Woods could even make a hole either, well unless it's anyone but his wife's.
His voice sounds like Roy Kent‘s. Allright let‘s do it.
You have a lot of sensible statements here and i dont particulary like where Man UTD has been heading over the past 6 months. So even though i was defending E10H for a long time, i'm now opposed to him staying - a change is needed the players probably lost willingness to fight. In that regard i would add the following
a) He plays Maguire because he has nobody else. he made it perfectly clear at the beginning of the season he didnt plan to use him. The injuries and lackluster showings of the limited available CBs forced his hand. our 2 starting CBs barely played together or played at all this year. It's either Maguire or using academy players and those players arent that talented. We're playing Casemiro as CB and he clearly isnt suited for the role. I think for some games Bruno played there.
b) He plays MCSause because Eriksen cant defend in space, track players or even press. His legs are gone. With Bruno playing like a madman (i guess he's often an aggresive ball winning midfielder, there's a huge gap he probably hopes that McSauce can help with the press. We brought Amrabat in but he is not it. McSauce was also up for sale.
c) He plays Rashford because he's theoretically the best attacking player in this team. He doesnt press but all teams have an outlet player that typically doesnt.
I still dont understand how we are set out to play.. We seem to be trying to press high with the front 3 and Bruno ( ?) our LB and RB are usually nowhere to be found and once the opponents change 3 passes they're facing our GK because our CBs are not pressing high. The drop in Casemiro's form probably hasnt helped, Mainoo isnt the general we need him to be yet, and Bruno is a madman.
So are we playing good football? There were genuinely moments in games we played good football. Momentarily. for 10 mins. He's doubling down on a way of playing but the players cant deliver. To succeed, he needs at least 2 CMs in the Valverde / Tchuameni profile maybe(?) and backs that can actually play as complete wingbacks. Obi-Wan Bissaka is very limited (did he even cross the ball this year?), Dalot is very erratic. And we probably need to offload Rashford too.
The question is, do we think he 'vision' can translate to proper football or is it just bullshit?
As a final note, Ragnick who theoretically is a high-press and counter press mastermind, got bollocked quite hard, trying to implement the system. It takes time to transition, and frankly, the backbone of that team is still here (Dalot, Bissaka, Bruno, Rashford, McSauce, Maguire, Lindelof, Varane).
Antony put up 3 fingers whilst Onana was talking behind his hands,however no one truly knows what was actually being said
Don't think it matters whether we lose heavily to Arsenal on Sunday he will be here until Cup Final. Quite honestly it now looks like we could have lost 6-0 at Palace and he still would have survived
I think a lot of the selections are dictated by who's available. He could be more purist and throw a quick 18 year old cb in instead of Harry Maguire possibly but that would be a bit stupid even if it made the team look a bit more coherent. He could have picked Eriksen over McTominay a few times maybe and we might look better until we concede a corner.
I think it would have been really hard to have a good season this year and he hasn't done a bad job. Not a bad job is never enough at United and momentum and faith are too damaged so i think he's past the point of no return. I expect they've already decided he's gone at the end of the season, they'll publicly support him in the mean time as is right and sensible.
I think it would have been really hard to have a good season this year and he hasn't done a bad job. Not a bad job is never enough at United and momentum and faith are too damaged so i think he's past the point of no return. I expect they've already decided he's gone at the end of the season, they'll publicly support him in the mean time as is right and sensible.
The reason why I pointed out those team selections is because he's telling fans through the media that United fans should believe in his multi year project. A multi year coaching process that does not give fans results or performances, or a system that values something other top coaches value, compactness. He's saying that his coaching cannot give fans these obvious signs of good coaching, because his players are crap and that he values this system so much that growing pains as bad as what we're witnessing is due to him prioritizing the long term future, rather than chasing short term results.
Now how can he excuse short term results with growing pains of his system, if he's playing players that contradict his system's advantages or at the very least are players that will not be part of his future? Either he's terrible at identifying talent that suits his system, he doesn't value his system's advantages enough despite him claiming he doesn't like being pragmatic, or he's a hypocrite.
Either way, there is no logical staircase I can climb for me to be on board with this.
I have to accept inconsistencies in his thought process, falsehoods on how long it takes to coach a side, crap results, and crap performances.
We are not man marking anyone. Man marking involves following the target. We do not do that. We sit deep. Most of our goals happen due to individual errors. This defense had plenty clean sheets last season. I am sorry but I trust the manager to set up a defense. Its easy for us to say that he is doing this this and that that. But in reality its much more complex and given the injuries and drop of form and player tantrums, I think I can cut my manager some slack,
Thanks matey.
If Ten Hag has anything about him, he would ask to stay at Carrington for preseason this summer so that the team can prepare adequately for next season.
This is not the time for a company sponsored mini holiday to the USA
This is not the time for a company sponsored mini holiday to the USA
Why would Ten Hag be there though? Offering heh advice?
It's more a way to make money and finance his salary than company sponsored holidays.
Sadly I still think that him staying one more year is the most probable managerial outcome for us.
I don't think ten Hag deserves it, but I will accept it if that's what the new board prefers.
Yeah I know but they are not great for football though. These money making trips are ok if the team has the football basics drilled into them and can simply have a few light matches to start a playing rhythm.
Our team doesn't have anything right at the moment. It needs a coaching overhaul.
Sadly I still think that him staying one more year is the most probable managerial outcome for us.
I don't think ten Hag deserves it, but I will accept it if that's what the new board prefers.
I don't think anyone should accept it. You can't allow the standard that's currently being set to fester for much longer. It just doesn't seem realistic he turns it around from him. He doesn't show anything to make me think he can do it, and the new owners will surely want to make a better fresher start than this.
I'm still confident he's a dead man walking.
I agree with you. I think he's a poor man-manager, a poor tactician, a poor injury recovery planner and the list goes on....
But I don't get enough hints from INEOS statements that there are actively looking for new manager. I'm sure they are considering some names but it just doesn't seem serious enough.
They have very little effect on the ability to train intensively during preseason. Not touring will maybe see you gain at the most 4 or 5 more days, which isn't really a difference maker when you consider an entire season, let alone two entire seasons. But if they really feel the need to get those handful of training sessions they can do double/triple sessions earlier in the preseason or start a week earlier.
I mean, 4-5 days out of a 2 week tour is basically half the time right?
I do think you lose a lot more than 4-5 days though. There's the travel from city to city, jet-lag (since the USA is so big), the PR stuff players have to do during downtimes...
If we make up for it with double/triple training sessions later, then we risk another injury-plagued season. A lot of detrimental effects add up and we are not in a position to brush off these minimal gains.
How many PL games have Liverpool had their 1st choice GK and back four available this season?
Alisson has missed 10 PL games
Robertson has missed 14 PL games
TAA has missed 10 PL games
Matip has missed 22 PL games
Liverpool finished 3rd during that injury crisis a few years ago They took 26 points from their final 10 PL games. 8 wins and 2 draws.
Their back four consisted of players such as Rhys Williams, Nat Phillips, Kabak and Fabinho during those games. And only conceded 6 goals across those 10 games.
Most valuable club on the planet, getting hammered, battling to qualify for the conference cup, yet not sacking the manager.
I think there are enough rumours and reports coming out to suggest that he's likely to be sacked. INEOS don't want as many leaks as previous years.
They don't want to cause too much disruption ahead of an FA Cup final.
The data is there for INEOS to analyse. It goes back to last season. It'll be very difficult for ten Hag to survive this season.
4 or 5 days isn't much at all and double/triple sessions during preseason are normal, you don't risk injuries unless you are a dumbfeck of a manager. As an example you can do a cardio heavy session in the morning, with HIIT football drills, followed by video sessions and then do tactical sessions at walking pace in the afternoon.
The only thing that can be the cause of injuries is the HIIT sessions when players aren't properly rested which is why you need to be careful with it during the season but it's something that you have to do anyway. The supplemental sessions are the others the video and tactical sessions, those are the ones that a new coach or a coach that wants to "drill" his team will focus on and they are not physically demanding, they are just time and mentally consuming.
Well, herein lies the problem....
Seriously though, yes maybe the gains would be minimal, but I think it's worth giving it a go. If the tactical sessions are time and mentally consuming, it would be great if the players had proper rest time and were not asked to sign autographs, attend photo sessions, travel, or get over jet-lag, in that time.
It's 100% not worth it. If your manager is that useless then sack him or start preseason 5 days earlier but don't lose a dozen of millions for no good reason those millions are important for United when it comes to FFP and also pay our bills including incoming players.
Well maybe I'm being naive, but I'd like to see a bigger focus on football rather than commercial activities for a change.
Ten Fraud could learn a thing or two.
All well and good him saying that with the squad Real have.
Ancelotti makes that squad look way better than it actually is. It's a good one but it's not actually better than the ones few other big clubs have.
1. How many of those games have overlapped? How many games have they missed all of them at the same time?
2. Yes they finished 3rd with their crisis that consisted of two defenders being out for months
How does this work out? We've shat the bed these past 10 years and I'd imagine our marketing part of things isn't what it used to be either compared to the new kids on the block, doesn't make much sense.
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