Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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With an Ajax team that had its best players taken every season. That didn’t even get to champions league group stage for many years before he got there. Of course he wasn’t going to get to UCL semi finals every season its not Bayern or City he was managjng

Eh, you do realise that he was dumped into The Europa League for some of those seasons?

He couldn't make a SF in that either.

Bosz took Ajax to the final of The Europa League 7 months before ten Hag became Ajax manager.

The things you people come out with. Shameless stuff.
 
That’s because they started of so poorly. They couldn’t get worse than 8th let’s be honest. We overachieved in ETH first season which is why everyone expected us to come like 2nd or something this year. It was never happening. He’s been here 2 years, got into 3 finals and won 1 cup. I’d say Klopps fall of was worse than ours. They came 2nd in 21/22 and then 5th the year later. Is that not a worse downfall than ours?

Nobody would have been upset with top 4 again this season and around 70 points and an improvement in the style of play. Neither happened.

You really go to extreme lengths to kid yourself. Klopp had 1 truly bad season out of 8 full seasons. The team had come to the end of a cycle. Just like Fergie's United coming to the end of a cycle after winning the league in 2003. The next 2 seasons were poor. A new team had to be built. Ronaldo, Rooney, Fletcher, etc.
 
Bayern bailing us out by poaching ETH, taking the decision out of the hands of the potential saps in charge, would be too good to be true.
It won’t happen because they won’t pay whatever compensation we want, and he wont walk unless he’s sacked and gets a payout. Bayerns interest is solely based on him being a free agent and them scraping the barrel after Rangnick rejected them.
 
Eh, you do realise that he was dumped into The Europa League for some of those seasons?

He couldn't make a SF in that either.

Bosz took Ajax to the final of The Europa League 7 months before ten Hag became Ajax manager.

The things you people come out with. Shameless stuff.
Other than 18-19 the only knockout ties he won were against Lille and Young Boys, and was eliminated by Rosenborg, Nice, Getafe, Roma and Benfica in his other attempts.

As you mentioned they already made EL final the season before he joined. They weren’t some minnows and other than 18-19 their performances were pretty much what you expect from them (good group performance in 21-22 though).
 
It won’t happen because they won’t pay whatever compensation we want, and he wont walk unless he’s sacked and gets a payout. Bayerns interest is solely based on him being a free agent and them scraping the barrel after Rangnick rejected them.

Truly scraping the barrel. They’ve been rejected by De Zerbi, Rangnick and even tried to lure Nagelsmann back.
 
It won’t happen because they won’t pay whatever compensation we want, and he wont walk unless he’s sacked and gets a payout. Bayerns interest is solely based on him being a free agent and them scraping the barrel after Rangnick rejected them.
ETH gets CL football and a more realistic shot of a title next season, plus Bayern have no issue matching top PL club wages for players/managers (as opposed to transfer fees traditionally): a clean mutual consent with him then parachuted into the Bayern job makes sense from most, if not all sides (maybe Bayern the least, dependent on how much you rate him as a head coach, but that's another discussion).
 
Truly scraping the barrel. They’ve been rejected by De Zerbi, Rangnick and even tried to lure Nagelsmann back.
De Zerbi wasn't confirmed to be a candidate. The club has confirmed their interest in Alonso, Nagelsmann and Rangnick. So those three definitely decided against Bayern. Everybody else is just a rumour (but still makes a fun list, as you can include also Emery, Hoeneß and Tuchel if you like)
 
But did he have to use 30 different combinations at CB? Did he have over 60 different injury’s in a season? And you can compare there 2nd seasons as being better but the fact is none of there first full seasons was better than ETHs. Last year you could see how Liverpool got affected by just losing VVD and a couple of other players. Why does everyone els get a free pass and can use injuries as an excuse but when it’s us it can’t be used?
I asked that same question when someone said De Zebri is a very good manager and it's all because of Brighton's injuries. How come everyone else gets a pass except ETH?
 
Nobody would have been upset with top 4 again this season and around 70 points and an improvement in the style of play. Neither happened.

You really go to extreme lengths to kid yourself. Klopp had 1 truly bad season out of 8 full seasons. The team had come to the end of a cycle. Just like Fergie's United coming to the end of a cycle after winning the league in 2003. The next 2 seasons were poor. A new team had to be built. Ronaldo, Rooney, Fletcher, etc.
You’re comparing 8 seasons with a guy that’s not even finished 2 yet? Who’s to say if he was in charge next year we wouldn’t finish top 4? No one can predict the future.
 
I asked that same question when someone said De Zebri is a very good manager and it's all because of Brighton's injuries. How come everyone else gets a pass except ETH?
Exactly. People was still wanting De Zerbi despite them getting battered of villa 6-1. He’s no different to ETH in the sense that when his team lose they can lose pretty ugly.
 
I did not agree he was not top 3 LCBs no point lying too and again you backed nothing up this is a subjective conversation and its all our opinions
You didn't answer and moved the goalposts to top 6 instead (Because you know he's not better than VVD, Gabriel or City's options minimum).

Who are your top 3?
 
You didn't answer and moved the goalposts to top 6 instead (Because you know he's not better than VVD, Gabriel or City's options minimum).

Who are your top 3?
Licha was better than Gabriel last season, and he's been injured all of this season.

Your basis for scraping him off is because he's effectively injured. I don't think that's giving him a fair shake for evaluation.
 
You didn't answer and moved the goalposts to top 6 instead (Because you know he's not better than VVD, Gabriel or City's options minimum).

Who are your top 3?
Let’s be fair, Martinez is probably not even the 6th best CB in Manchester.

Dias, Stones, Gavrdiol and Varane are better. You can make arguments that Akanji and Ake are better, though I think there is not much between these three.

And when it comes to the league, he probably doesn’t make top 10 considering that there are also Van Diijk, Saliba, Gabriel, van der ven, Konate, Romero to name a few with the first three being definitely better than Martinez.
 
It's pretty tedious having to constantly educate you.

30 combinations is becoming the new 115 charges.

60 different injuries is pure fantasy stuff.

Liverpool had a bad season last year. It was Klopp's 8th season. You're going to have bad season eventually. The team was coming to the end of its cycle.They had a bad sesson because their midfield got old and players declined. Fabinho fell off a cliff, Henderson got older, The Ox wasn't reliable anymore, Milner was in his late 30's, etc. They sold/released all four of them last summer and replaced them with Mac Allister, Endo, Szoboszlai and Gravenberch. It rejuvenated the team and they have had a decent season. Won a trophy and are still technically in a title race if they win today.

Liverpool have had multiple injuries this season and haven't been a complete disgrace. Alisson, Matip, Robertson, TAA, Bajetic, C.Jones, Szobszlai and Jota have all missed lots of games this season.

When they had an injury crisis during the 20/21 season with van Dijk missing for almost the entire season, they still finished 3rd. They took 26 points from 30 to finish that season. They had CB combinations made up from Rhys Williams, Nat Phillips and Kabak. Fabinho even had to play a few games at CB.They rocked up to Old Trafford and beat us 4-2 with Williams and Phillips playing at CB. Phillips even assisted a goal. Look at the level these two are playing at currently. That's why Klopp is elite. He could achieve 3rd from a difficult situation.

No excuses at all. Klopp failed to achieve top 4 once from 8 full seasons as manager. He built up a bit of leeway by that stage.
Bit in bold spoils what could be just a good contribution to discussion.

It’s true we have had a silly amount of combinations enforced on us due to injury.

This week alone we have 11 injured players.

Klopp had a bad season largely due to the players available to him not being good enough. Funny that.
 
ETH gets CL football and a more realistic shot of a title next season, plus Bayern have no issue matching top PL club wages for players/managers (as opposed to transfer fees traditionally): a clean mutual consent with him then parachuted into the Bayern job makes sense from most, if not all sides (maybe Bayern the least, dependent on how much you rate him as a head coach, but that's another discussion).
The Bayern lads won’t tolerate him. They threw Ancelotti under the bus because they thought his training was too light. Imagine what they’ll think of Ten Hag’s sessions and his tactics?
 
Giving a manager who isn't good enough the players he needs just wastes more time

This is of course true but also begs the question.The reality is that we don't know if ETH is good enough to succeed at a well organised top club because he has only ever operated in England in a badly failing dysfunctional top club. You might argue we need a manager suitable to that environment but no such person exists because it is an impossible task. My hunch, and it is only that, is that he is good enough coach if he has the right club structure supporting him. That latter is the hard bit, not sacking the guy on the bench to appease the infant like screaming of the fans for goals and wins right now.
 
Exactly. People was still wanting De Zerbi despite them getting battered of villa 6-1. He’s no different to ETH in the sense that when his team lose they can lose pretty ugly.

Yeah he definitely loses very ugly, that 4-0 defeat away at Luton was very concerning
 
This is of course true but also begs the question.The reality is that we don't know if ETH is good enough to succeed at a well organised top club because he has only ever operated in England in a badly failing dysfunctional top club. You might argue we need a manager suitable to that environment but no such person exists because it is an impossible task. My hunch, and it is only that, is that he is good enough coach if he has the right club structure supporting him. That latter is the hard bit, not sacking the guy on the bench to appease the infant like screaming of the fans for goals and wins right now.

I don’t think we need to use terms like infant to describe a section of fans fed up with this season
 
Licha was better than Gabriel last season, and he's been injured all of this season.

Your basis for scraping him off is because he's effectively injured. I don't think that's giving him a fair shake for evaluation.
He really wasn't.
 
Exactly. People was still wanting De Zerbi despite them getting battered of villa 6-1. He’s no different to ETH in the sense that when his team lose they can lose pretty ugly.
De Zerbi is a good coach but when Brighton lose they get hammered and that is not something a top coach can sustain and keep their job at the likes of United.
 
The Bayern lads won’t tolerate him. They threw Ancelotti under the bus because they thought his training was too light. Imagine what they’ll think of Ten Hag’s sessions and his tactics?


They should know as Ten Hag was a coach in Bayern for 2 years before he went to Utrecht and then Ajax.
 
Injuries, owners, ill-organised structure - none of this excuse his suicidal setup and complete chaos in our game since the second part of last season.
We've been looking like a mess for a long time and it feels like ETH has no idea how to change it.
 
Let’s be fair, Martinez is probably not even the 6th best CB in Manchester.

Dias, Stones, Gavrdiol and Varane are better. You can make arguments that Akanji and Ake are better, though I think there is not much between these three.

And when it comes to the league, he probably doesn’t make top 10 considering that there are also Van Diijk, Saliba, Gabriel, van der ven, Konate, Romero to name a few with the first three being definitely better than Martinez.

Akanji and Ake are definitely better, which is testament to the job City have done developing their defenders as neither of them came there with a very good reputation. Akanji in particular, even Dortmund fans were surprised to see them being interested.
 
People would have accepted 70 points this season and 3rd/4th with an improvement in performances and overall consistency.
If we were playing inconsistent football and were to narrowly miss out on top 4 this season we could be having these discussions taking injuries and other factors into account. I know a lot of people still wouldn't be happy with 5th, which is expected and understandable but still you could say there were mitigating circumstances and maybe there would be some merit in keeping a manager who failed to meet the minimum expectations for the first time. But we simply can't be having these discussions when we're consistently bad for over a year, cannot outplay and beat anyone convincingly and our 7th place on the table is extremely flattering. By most relevant metrics we should be worse because we are.
 
I don’t think we need to use terms like infant to describe a section of fans fed up with this season

How else would you describe people who want instant gratification and scream at what they see in front of them, but seem to have no real willingness to engage with the behind the scenes realities of 15 years of Glazer mismanagement and how hard that is for one guy to unpick? It reminds me of when I told my kids they couldn't have ice cream.

De Zerbi is a good coach but when Brighton lose they get hammered and that is not something a top coach can sustain and keep their job at the likes of United.

Problem is we still think we are a top club and we just aren't. Entitlement won't get us back to the top. Football is littered with the shells of once great clubs.
 
This is of course true but also begs the question.The reality is that we don't know if ETH is good enough to succeed at a well organised top club because he has only ever operated in England in a badly failing dysfunctional top club. You might argue we need a manager suitable to that environment but no such person exists because it is an impossible task. My hunch, and it is only that, is that he is good enough coach if he has the right club structure supporting him. That latter is the hard bit, not sacking the guy on the bench to appease the infant like screaming of the fans for goals and wins right now.
You seem to be ignoring the very large midground.

Group 1 - Injuries and the poor club structure mean absolutely nothing, and ETH should be fully judged on how things have gone this season.
Group 2 - Injuries and the poor club structure have a big impact and any manager will have struggled to some extent, but doesn't excuse just how incredibly bad things have been this season.
Group 3 - Injuries and the poor club structure mean it's utterly impossible to judge this season at all, so it doesn't matter how bad we've been.

You seem to be in group 3 and claiming that everyone who says ETH hasn't been good enough is in group 1. In reality I don't think many are in that group at all and the large majority are in group 2 - acknowledging that we've been in a rough position that will always make it difficult for the manager to some extent. But not so difficult that we're probably going to finish the season in 8th with a negative goal difference, had about two games all season where we've genuinely played well for the full 90 and not many more that we've even put a 45 minutes together, based on most metrics (and the eye) we should be in the bottom half of the table and are very lucky to be where we are, finished bottom of a fairly easy CL group, been outplayed by literal Championship teams, and are fixated on playing a suicidal formation that makes it impossible to exert any kind of control on the match.

The injuries and poor club structure can absolutely be used as an excuse to some extent. It means that the expectation on ETH should be tempered by those things. But he still has to meet those lowered expectations, and he hasn't come close.
 
Yeah, he was. Last season Gabriel was very much the weak link in the center back partnership, with Arsenal effectively collapsing when Saliba got injured.
So what you're actually saying is Saliba was better than Gabriel? Agree

By what logic does that = Gabriel is a weak link and Martinez is better?
The same Martinez that played 90 minutes in a 7-0, 6-3 and a 4-0 half.
 
So what you're actually saying is Saliba was better than Gabriel? Agree

By what logic does that = Gabriel is a weak link and Martinez is better?
The same Martinez that played 90 minutes in a 7-0, 6-3 and a 4-0 half.
No, what I'm saying is Martinez was a better CB than Gabriel last season. Gabriel made a fair amount of unforced errors himself, some of which he was fortunate not to lead to a goal.

You're making Martinez guilty by association in those games, cherry picking fixtures where the team collapsed. It's a bit of a weird argument, you'd be better off looking at their own player performances.

Worth reminding that Gabriel had consistency in the CB pairing, which makes a big difference. The minute he lost Saliba last season, he and the defence collapsed.
 
Akanji and Ake are definitely better, which is testament to the job City have done developing their defenders as neither of them came there with a very good reputation. Akanji in particular, even Dortmund fans were surprised to see them being interested.
Yeah, I never understood the overhyping of Martinez. He is okay, a Heinze-like CB who can do a good job in a title winning team as a deputy but not good enough to be a starter. As I said would he fifth-sixth choice at City, a team we should aspire to. He has some very good attributes (being vocal, passing) but also some serious weaknesses (aerial duels, being weak and slow and drinkable). The way how Caf was acting last year it was like he is the second coming of Baresi, when I though he was just an ok CB, for whom we overpaid significantly and won’t be a starter of a title-winning team.
 
They should know as Ten Hag was a coach in Bayern for 2 years before he went to Utrecht and then Ajax.
He managed the reserve side for 2 seasons before moving back to Holland. If they saw anything remotely good in him he’d have been promoted to the main job or have gone back to manage them at some point in the last 10 years since he left.
 
No, what I'm saying is Martinez was a better CB than Gabriel last season. Gabriel made a fair amount of unforced errors himself, some of which he was fortunate not to lead to a goal.

You're making Martinez guilty by association in those games, cherry picking fixtures where the team collapsed. It's a bit of a weird argument, you'd be better off looking at their own player performances.
So I'm making him guilty by association but when you say Arsenal 'collapsed' without Saliba it was because Gabriel is a 'weak link'?

OK.
 
Problem is we still think we are a top club and we just aren't. Entitlement won't get us back to the top. Football is littered with the shells of once great clubs.
Yeah I’m not disputing that but if you want to become a small club then start normalising massive defeats every time you lose, that’s the fast track to being a small time club. The difference between a big club and a small club is how much you’re willing to tolerate failure.
 
You seem to be ignoring the very large midground.

Group 1 - Injuries and the poor club structure mean absolutely nothing, and ETH should be fully judged on how things have gone this season.
Group 2 - Injuries and the poor club structure have a big impact and any manager will have struggled to some extent, but doesn't excuse just how incredibly bad things have been this season.
Group 3 - Injuries and the poor club structure mean it's utterly impossible to judge this season at all, so it doesn't matter how bad we've been.

You seem to be in group 3 and claiming that everyone who says ETH hasn't been good enough is in group 1. In reality I don't think many are in that group at all and the large majority are in group 2 - acknowledging that we've been in a rough position that will always make it difficult for the manager to some extent. But not so difficult that we're probably going to finish the season in 8th with a negative goal difference, had about two games all season where we've genuinely played well for the full 90 and not many more that we've even put a 45 minutes together, based on most metrics (and the eye) we should be in the bottom half of the table and are very lucky to be where we are, finished bottom of a fairly easy CL group, been outplayed by literal Championship teams, and are fixated on playing a suicidal formation that makes it impossible to exert any kind of control on the match.

The injuries and poor club structure can absolutely be used as an excuse to some extent. It means that the expectation on ETH should be tempered by those things. But he still has to meet those lowered expectations, and he hasn't come close.

Yeah sounds silly but I would almost put myself between group 1 and group 2 as want him sacked, however not having a regular squad to choose from will have it's issues, only reason I say about excuses is because he will use it to defend himself.
 
So I'm making him guilty by association but when you say Arsenal 'collapsed' without Saliba it was because Gabriel is a 'weak link'?

OK.
No, I'm saying Gabriel was capable of more individual errors, and if you wanted to point to Licha in collapsing games I can do the same with Gabriel.

Licha lost his partner in a fair few games and maintained consistency in his own performances. Gabriel didn't.
 
Yeah I’m not disputing that but if you want to become a small club then start normalising massive defeats every time you lose, that’s the fast track to being a small time club. The difference between a big club and a small club is how much you’re willing to tolerate failure.

Yeah a case in point of this would be just brushing off 4-0 to Brentford, 6-3 to City and the Anfield abomination as just freak results
 
You seem to be ignoring the very large midground.

Group 1 - Injuries and the poor club structure mean absolutely nothing, and ETH should be fully judged on how things have gone this season.
Group 2 - Injuries and the poor club structure have a big impact and any manager will have struggled to some extent, but doesn't excuse just how incredibly bad things have been this season.
Group 3 - Injuries and the poor club structure mean it's utterly impossible to judge this season at all, so it doesn't matter how bad we've been.

I think I'm in group 4. Injuries and the poor club structure have a big impact and any manager will have struggled to some extent. We could have done a lot better if the manager had compromised more than he did, but that would have come at the unacceptable price of backsliding on the core mission of insisting that we try to play a certain way. Even if we fail miserably.

I'm therefore willing to overlook just how incredibly bad things have been this season to some extent. Where I think ETH is culpable is in over training players and bringing them back from injury too soon when he needed to keep them fit given how thin the quality in the squad is. But this is also most likely a reflection of a heavy pre-season tour, bad medical, poor training facilities and too many old or fragile players for a high intensity game, none of which ETH can control. Sure you can say let's not play high intensity. But then what? There are ten teams in the EPL who will trash you a whole different way. Ultimately it comes down to the idea that we have to build things in a certain way and in a certain order to achieve the ultimate objective of being competitive.

End of the day I don't think ETH will survive the summer though I sort of hope he does. What's important is that we build something that isn't dependent on whether the head coach is a genius or a fool. Because they're rarely either and modern football doesn't work like that.

Yeah I’m not disputing that but if you want to become a small club then start normalising massive defeats every time you lose, that’s the fast track to being a small time club. The difference between a big club and a small club is how much you’re willing to tolerate failure.

I don't agree. It's whether you are willing and able to offer the characteristics that bring success. I don't tolerate my continued inability to date Dua Lipa but it has little bearing on how I actually spend my friday night. The Glazers have spend 20 years filling their pockets rather than seeking success and that will not be easy to fix.
 
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You didn't answer and moved the goalposts to top 6 instead (Because you know he's not better than VVD, Gabriel or City's options minimum).

Who are your top 3?
I actually do think he is better than Gabriel and Ake (not Dias though)Top 6 is not a movement of goal posts since PL XI do not distinguish between rcb and lcb when picking the XI

Hes been injured for a year last season he was one of the best cbs in the PL
 
Just know today that Klopp is only two or three years older than ETH. This manutd job is the first ETH got at a big club when he was 52.
 
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