I never said he had a 0% chance of winning. But we have a marginally better chance without him.
We can revisit the question of whether his presence adds any value to our performances after we've played Palace, Arsenal and Newcastle.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I never said he had a 0% chance of winning. But we have a marginally better chance without him.
We can revisit the question of whether his presence adds any value to our performances after we've played Palace, Arsenal and Newcastle.
Why can't we play in our own way and not Ajax's way? United really has lost it's identity if we're trying to copy other clubs and failing.
Depends what's an element of control mean to you?
Would you agree that Ten Hag had been the driving force behind identifying targets?
Hes a driving force. But not the driving force. He has no more power over transfers than the DoF.
The problem is, the DoF is utter wank and offered nothing on the table to work with, so by default we ended up getting a load of ten hag names. Which isn't the design of the system.
Finally. Hopefully he continues calling out the drivel of pundits and the media.
Fuming that he didn’t say «Yeah we’re looking to sell the majority of these useless pricks as soon as the season ends»
Dealing with adversity is the sign if a top manager. No year is a regular by that metric, nothing is ever ideal. If everyone had mostly stayed fit this season he should have been coming 4th ahead of Villa and Spurs.
I dread to think where we'll be in 2 years if he carries on. But if for some inexplciable reason he's still here in 2 years then I hope you are right and he has us going in the right direction. But at the same time it shouldn't be taking 4-5 years just to get into a position to maybe make a title challenge. I don't think anyone including the club envisaged such a long term project when Ten Hag was hired. And to be honest he's no spring chicken either, if we're thinking that long term I'd prefer us to hire a young manager in his early to mid 40's this summer for that kind of project.
Yeah. The polls creep ever more in Ten Hag’s favor as his press conferences are analyzed and dissected and we forget how crap we looked in the last match.
Yeah. The polls creep ever more in Ten Hag’s favor as his press conferences are analyzed and dissected and we forget how crap we looked in the last match.
You know people voting yes on the poll are still saying they want Ten Hag to leave in a little over 4 weeks?
What is the rot specifically though? Players? Directors?
Teh Galzrs aren't running things day to day anymore, Woodward, Arnold and Murtagh are gone.
16+ players that played under Ralf are gone. Only Dalot, Rashford, Maguire, Varane, Shaw, Bissaka, Martial, Bruno, Lindelof, McTominay and Diallo remain.
Of those I'd say keep, Dalot, Bruno, Shaw, Rashford (don't see the club selling him) and Lindelof or Maguire as a back-up.
Sell, Wan Bissaka, McTominay, Diallo and one of Maguire and Lindelof.
I think Varane and Martial will probably leave with their contracts running out.
So we could be going into next season with only 5 or 6 players that finished the 21-22 season, is it really such a big task?
First doubts I have with ETHs position today.
Not due to the performances, or the noise around the club, but he doesn't know what's going on above him.
Bruno said about his future so clearly the players are briefed but ETH claims the reports are untrue. Clearly there may be plans without ETH at the helm.
Not due to the performances, or the noise around the club, but he doesn't know what's going on above him.
Bruno said about his future so clearly the players are briefed but ETH claims the reports are untrue. Clearly there may be plans without ETH at the helm.
Ralf Rangnick diagnosed many of our problems and told us of several players we should pursue but we knew he wasn't good enough for us. How stupid is Bayern Munich for wanting him? The rot in this club from tip to tail is thorough and is hopefully being addressed. I'd take Rangnick back as DOF in a second.
The system we had in place is wank mate, we all know that that we're not disagreeing there. But (and we can debate the reasons why) Ten Hag has been the one within the club primarily identifying potenital signings. I'm sure a few like Tom Heaton or Casemiro were club suggestions he was ok with, might have been a few others. But would you say it's fair to say that maybe 80% of his signings were his own suggestions?
Yeah, in this case it actually does make sense for "Keep until end of season" to creep back up, as with each passing day, we'd have less and less time with an interim in place.
He's a dead man walking and he knows it (or maybe he's too dumb and oblivious he doesnt know like how he thinks we are entertaining and play well). Anyhow I have a feeling we have already approached and agreed a deal with someone to manage us next and we havent announced it out of the circumstances (upcoming FA cup final and that particular someone still has something to win in his current club). I think its gonna be Tuchel. He's exactly the type of head coach INEOS is looking for. Someone who dgaf about transfer in general and just wanna do the coaching stuff.
Well, some. The sack/keep poll was 70/30. I’m assuming the 30 from there are voting to keep til the end of the season and beyond.
Yes, but your insinuation is it's there by design, which is false. The system only works if the DoF is capable of having his own weight in opinion and his own candidates to overlay the managers suggestions with.
How long after the FA Cup final do you think they'll wait?
And to some extent, you can have very good players who you aren't going to get the best out of.
I think this is a key point, and personally I think it's what does for him.
There's a huge summer in terms of recruitment coming up. Clearly Ten Hag isn't going to get the control he had over transfers under the new regime but will need some input, if he's the one coaching the team and setting them up next year. They're not just going to hand him players, given the unique system he is and/or wants to employ, and nor should they. It'd be a disaster.
There's a year left on his contract and no realistic prospect they extend it given performance. Another poor season next year further impacts FFP making another big summer "reset" the following year unlikely.
They can move him on at the end of the season and nobody will bat an eye lid. If he doesn't go, he is, by inference, their man and if it doesn't work out, they carry the can and put everything back another year. Ratcliffe is talking about returning the club to the top table as soon as he can. The club is in flux but they're moving quickly and I personally think they'll act decisively.
All logic dictates they'll move him on, in my opinion. New manager, new players and starting again.
I think Ten Hag wanted that responsibility. Do you disagree?
Curious to know if the more vocal Ten Hag supporters watched the CL semifinal PSG v Dortmund. @VP89 @BenitoSTARR @NLunited @glazed
There is a narrative that continues to be voiced by the Ten Hag supporters that this squad has too many injuries, the right players weren’t bought because Ten Hag doesn’t have control over transfers, and there are no problems with the tactics themselves, it’s the players lack of execution. Varane, Eriksen and Casemiro are too old, etc. Frankenstein squad and so forth.
Watching Dortmund go toe-to-toe with PSG was fascinating. Dortmund has retreads all over the pitch, including two who played for Ten Hag here last season, Sancho and Sabitzer. Mats Hummels at 35, and possibly the slowest human ever, playing a relatively high line, is dancing around the pitch, directing traffic, cleaning up messes. Fullkrug, the retread of retreads, scoring a goal and being a nuisance. Sancho roasting Mendes and constantly putting the defense under pressure with key passes and beating his man. Sabitzer covering huge areas. This squad at Dortmund is so much greater than the sum of its parts. Look at how they defend, compact. The way they break forward on the counterattack. When in possession, there is constant movement, options everywhere, crisp patterns of play.
They go dumpster diving for players every season, looking for value in youths or castoffs. They haven’t spent more than €30m on a player since 2016, and that year they spent 35m for Dembele!
And somehow, Edin Terzic has figured a way to play with structure, organization, control. That’s coaching. That is top notch pre game preparation.
It’s easy to see how our squad, with superior players, could play like Dortmund. Bruno plays the role of Brandt, Hojlund as FullKrug, Mainoo as Sabitzer, Casemiro as Can, Sancho as, well, Sancho. Maguire as Hummels.
So, I suppose you can continue to make excuses for Ten Hag. But instead of complaining, real managers/coaches like Terzic are putting out exciting teams that are making deep runs in major competitions with a fraction of the resources.
@hobbers @stevoc Would like to know if you watched the match and what your impressions were.
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Playing staff and senior staff. Nobody on here can convince me our players are potential title winners.
Yes I would argue it’s a rebuild given we’ve replaced CEO, DOF and more.
In your opinion yes.
There isn't as much acceptance because he's made big personnel changes already and they've largely been shit. And even the good ones were more short term than Mourinho's. Also the football we play is rank.
Ange and Emery can come in and get their teams playing recognisably better football with better results within weeks. Ten Hag apparently needs £800m and 4 years to do it? Maybe more? What a failure.
There is a big difference between building a league winning side and one that can do a spurs or villa. Villa is still very impressive.
What adversity has Pep had at City?
We have had an abnormally disruptive season by any measure. To deny that is just silly now.
It absolutely should be taking us about 4 years to get into that position given we haven’t been operating as a proper elite football club for 11 years.
Not long they want to move fast. Replacement likely lined up already
INEOS should have enough of an idea right now that he is quite obviously not the man to take us forward. And installing a new system and structure with one of the most important positions still being filled with the wrong guy seems a strange approach. So no, there's not a single reason we should keep him any longer than this season.
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My honest answer is I watched it and other than Sancho playing well for the first half wasn’t really paying much attention.
Dortmund have a good footballing operation and have done for a long time. So it’s not a huge surprise that they can have the odd good season or performance in a cup competition. But you know they’re 5th in the Bundesliga behind Leverkusen, Bayern, Stuttgart and Leipzig?
We could also argue that the best footballing structures tend to go the furthest regardless of manager. Real Madrid, Bayern, City now etc are all regulars in these final stages.
If we focus on football and not commercial performances then I’m sure we’ll be back there too.
Some of the players aren’t playing for the club or the manager. How many managers have been thrown under the bus at this club? You can’t decide when to play good and bad when you’re getting a wage of over 150k a week. All our fans that pay there hard earned money weekly to watch them and they can’t even be bothered to show up and put in a decent performance. Dropping points to teams like Burnley who are getting relegated when our squad is probably worth 5x there’s is. The manger isn’t blameless like I’ve said numerous times before but how many times can we keep changing managers? If we’re happy to accept someone like potter or Southgate which are one of the more attainable managers then that will show how low we have become. Ratcliffe said when he came in we want the best in class in every department and unless we’re bringing in Guardiola/Klopp that ain’t happening.
That’s a complete cop out and deflection.
I’m purely talking about on field tactics and performance. They were second last season in the Bundesliga and equal on points. They sold Bellingham who is definitely on the shortlist for Ballon D’Or. They have +20 GD and 57 pts in 31 matches. We have a +1GD with 54 pts in 34 matches.
Ten Hag is supposed to be focusing on football. We have a much more superior squad. Just another excuse for Ten Hag…
Make any excuse for Ten Hag but try to explain his catastrophic midfield set up that has persisted no matter the players available or selected..
Beyond anything else that is the issue behind my lack of faith in him, it hasn't worked, it kills the midfielders, I don't think there is a midfield trio in the game who could cover the ground this insane set up creates.
Beyond anything else that is the issue behind my lack of faith in him, it hasn't worked, it kills the midfielders, I don't think there is a midfield trio in the game who could cover the ground this insane set up creates.
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How am I supposed to respond then?
Im just telling you I didn’t properly sit and watch the game. I was watching American Horror Story with my wife and had it on my phone in the background so I can’t comment beyond what I said.
We’ve had a more difficult season, in a more difficult league, with more off field issues, under greater scrutiny.
Put Ten Hag in Dortmund and do you doubt he’d do well?
Im not making any excuses here it’s called context. Sometimes when we make judgements about success we look at context.
Not all journeys are the same, not all clubs are equally scrutinised and tested. At the end of the day nothing you or I say has any real impact. It’s all just opinions.
So when I do bother to post in here at least accept that when I say something it’s my genuine view and not me trying to be difficult or deflect or cop out.
I reply to pretty much everyone on here even when they are rude to me. So I don’t think you can accuse me of copping out. I just don’t know enough about Dortmund’s tactical set up that night to provide the insight you require of me so sorry to disappoint.
Sorry deny what exactly?
No it shouldn't, what happened under different managers and almost entirely different squads 5-6+ years ago should havelittle or no bearing on Ten Hag's success or failure circa 2024.
No I didn't watch it sorry. Having been subjected to 50+ games of United's football this season. My enthusiam for watching football of any kind is at an all time low.
Yup, this is something that gets conveniently ignored in the midst of the injuries discussion.
He's been using this midfield setup since preseason. Even back then, the alarm bells were ringing here, and it was repeatedly pointed out by multiple people that this setup would not work if he persisted with it into the season.
None of the managers since leaving United have proven United were wrong to sack them to be fair. And as I've pointed out the majority of the squad is new players or promotions in the last 2 years. So we can't keep saying ''these players have threw x amount of managers under the bus''. It's different players mate.
Very rarely do I think it's the case that a player just doesn't bother, it's much more complex than that. Very few players are playing well this season right across the squad, that's not a coincidence. I'm sure there are a lot of factors at play and I'm not blaming the manager for all of them. But confidence and morale are a very real thing, it can't be turned on and off.
How many right backs can we buy? How many central midfielders? How many strikers? I think most people would agree the answer as many as we need to, to find one that works out. It's no different with the manager, they're just another cog in the machine, and with the new strucure in place the managers position become much less influential and from here on out they should be even more replaceable. As the DOF and technical directors will be handling the recruitment and squad building and providing coninuity between coaches.
Apart form a select few names like Pep, Klopp and Carlo there will be very few managers who are not atainable for United. Ten Hag is I believe the 4th-6th highest paid coach in world football. So I'd imagine the vast majority of football managers working today would like to be on that type of salary.
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We’ve had an abnormally disruptive season.
Past performance and long term structural inadequacies take time to improve.
Is this a cop out @DSG ?
Yes, we had no striker (because ETH bought Mount instead of an experienced striker). But the main question is: why did ETH try to use Sancho as a striker and not his boy Antony who was completely useless as a RW?
Mourinho won Roma there first cup in so many years. Moyes is doing alright with West Ham and won a European trophy with them. Not saying we should have kept them but managers have been and gone and done well at other clubs. Although I agree the managers haven’t been good enough for here, could you argue the club have failed them aswell? If you look across at our rivals and see city, pep has people above him running a club properly. We’ve had a bunch of clowns running our club and not always signing managers 1st choice targets. LVG, Mourinho, and even Ole have all had some complaints about this club. I agree there all different players apart from Rashford who’s played under most of them managers. And he could be a major figure in the dressing room that affects other players… Ole said last year that there’s still a bad player in the dressing room
Do you believe that in Real Madrid everything is running perfectly and all the players are saints?
Do you believe that the manager of Real Madrid would remain in his position after finishing last in an very easy CL group?
Our main problem with "the structure" is that they have not fired ETH yet.
People still hold on to this idea that you hire the "right" manager and you're set for a decade when in reality such cases are outliers. You hire and fire as many managers as you need, it's that simple.
West Ham fans want Moyes out. Imagine that, they're pretty much on our level and it's not considered good enough.
From August the season ahead was very predictable.
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