Yeah I know this.
Last edited:
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
Yeah I know this.
I'll just say this. Bayern are the most commercially inclined club on earth. I which people would stop mentioning them when they have no clue. Also United have always been one of the most commercial club on the planet, it's something that was built by the Edwards Family and how the club became the wealthiest in the World when it wasn't close to be the most successful.
And yes every bit of it is a defence of ETH.
It's clearly a two way thing: we obviously need better structures, but we also need to appoint a better manager.
If ETH walked into our club with new structures in place, who knows, he may have fared better. But, I just feel things have gone too far this season and don't really see a way back for him. It's unfortunate because I genuinely really wanted him and thought he done pretty well last seeson (for a first season in the job). I just don't see how any structures will help him now, as things have gotten completely out of control. The underlying stats against us are absolutely astonishing.
If ETH walked into our club with new structures in place, who knows, he may have fared better. But, I just feel things have gone too far this season and don't really see a way back for him. It's unfortunate because I genuinely really wanted him and thought he done pretty well last seeson (for a first season in the job). I just don't see how any structures will help him now, as things have gotten completely out of control. The underlying stats against us are absolutely astonishing.
That we have people actually drawing conclusions from a 4-2 win over a team that just shipped 5 to Burnley at home last weekend speaks volumes about where we currently are.
Some were genuinely asking why we can't just be happy with the win. Fml.
Regardless of one's thoughts on Ten Hag I think yesterday and this whole season shows the dichotomy between sets of players in the squad. You play Eriksen, kobiee, Bruno and you have good possession and good passing (probably the best passing display in terms of moving the ball all season) but if it was against a very physical midfield they would likely get overrun. Put in Casemiro or Mctominay in that midfield, its more physical but you lose that possesion/passing ability. I think Casemiro playing at CB also highlighted just how important Martinez is as Casemiro was trying those through the line passes and even he was struggling to pull them off.
I think its very important that whoever is manager next season whether Ten Hag or someone else that we bring in a holding midfielder that is both physical and technical, as well as a CB in the similar vein. This team is screaming out for a Carrick/Rodri type player as well as a dominant technical CB. If we can sort those two positions out along with a left back and right winger, it will go a long way to improving our possesion play.
I think its very important that whoever is manager next season whether Ten Hag or someone else that we bring in a holding midfielder that is both physical and technical, as well as a CB in the similar vein. This team is screaming out for a Carrick/Rodri type player as well as a dominant technical CB. If we can sort those two positions out along with a left back and right winger, it will go a long way to improving our possesion play.
Small joys and all of that.Sigh, you know what you know, this confirms there’s no point in trying to expand these discussions with you.
A bad structure by default means our managers have not Been able to perform to their best standards. I accept ETH may be not what we need or may even be as bad as we have seen, but I don’t accept that hes been a proven failure. Sometimes it’s being at the wrong club at the wrong time. Alot of people think ETH would have prob been a top candidate now had he not joined 2 years ago.
I don’t see this as a normal situation because even without the manager the club has effectively had no clarify for most of his tenure. who is even making decisions right now ? Does that mean he shouldn’t be able to have us playing better ? Probably not, but I don’t know how much all this stuff plays a role. Since other clubs aren’t going this sort of transition, it’s not really a like for like compariso.
If he had been coming back of a season with Atletico/Dortmund/Lazio where they performed at the level we have performed this season, we wouldn't even look his way. Truth be told he'd have been fired at virtually any other football club by now, we are possibly the only club incompetent enough to still have him in the job after spectacular CL fiasco and what has been an utterly disastrous league campaign all along.
I'm sorry but to a general point about why well run clubs routinely fail to make good appointments. You wrote a long post that had nothing to do with mine where you tried to defend the position of Manchester United's manager.
How is that not a defence of the manager?
i want to him stay just to see who we sell. I'm hoping we get rid of 10 players/
Who do you want him to sell?
We could win every single game till the end of the season (which we won't anyway) that my opinion on him wouldn't change
Good rumours coming out this morning about Varane being told to look elsewhere come the end of his contract. Get rid of martial, greenwood, Rashford, DVB, Hannibal, Sancho, Antony, AWB, lindelof, Casemiro, Evans, mctominay too please.
No one. It's the club and the new technical directors that should do it, Ashworth and Wilcox.
Are you happy being angry ?
It’s almost like different people have different ways of addressing tough times.
Being reflctive is being able to look at one’s self honestly and understanding there’s a lot we don’t understand about the world and each other. In the absence of that , ignorance and ego takes over. Most people don’t learn to reflect honestly , I know I’ve been wrong, hypocritical and just as obsessed with certain aspects of United as you are with this sacking the manager obsession so I don’t speak from an ivory tower.
My stance has consistently been I’m not sure about ETH or if any of what’s gone on at United is a mitigating reason to give him another year. Many of you have responded to me like I’m a relentless defender of him because you can only see one this as “either you want ETH sacked or you are a cultist” or something childish to that effect.
You and many others can’t objectively discuss this topic because you are coming at it entirely from a POV that there is only ONE true POV, which is your POV. Round and round we go, to where nobody knows………
Would you be willing to keep him if he was put in a similar position than he was at Ajax. Meaning that the club impose a style and brings the players?
Nice gaslighting. I really feel nothing at this point. The season has been a disaster.
I like ETH, I wanted him here and think he done well last season. This season has been indefensible.
Sigh.
If that’s what you got from the post, it’s a waste of both our times taking this topic any further.
Just curious but how does the injury record compare to last season? No it is not a defence of the manager it is just to satisfy my own curiosity, where were the injuries, which area of the team?
I know. The post you quoted literally alluded to that. The caveat being: I think it's gone too far at this point and don't see a way back for him. Had he come in with the right structures in place, then who knows. Ultimately though, he did fail here if he's sacked at the end of the season. I feel he has more of a chance than any other post-Fergie manager to actually go on and do well elsewhere.
Do you understand that if some fans choose to try and enjoy when we do ok, it won’t make any difference to what INEOs choose to do ? So Why do you have a problem with fans who are just trying to take whatever positives they can from the season ?
It’s Possible to be unhappy with how things are and still try to find bits of joy from a game.
I personally wouldn't.
I don't want him to be the manager under any circumstance.
Even at Ajax itself, he was more pragmatic/direct than Bosz was(who's arguably having a better domestic season with PSV than ETH ever did with Ajax).
To be fair at this point the only reason I can think of why someone would be so willing to persist with ETH is because they've invested so much personal stock in him that the sole thought of backtracking on that feels like too much effort.
Forget about football, no other organization in the world would give another YEAR to someone who has failed so badly at their job, even in corporate world the best you are going to get is 2-3 months to address your issues and if you don't it's curtains. He's already got so much time beyond what he should have got given his failures, yet here we are talking about how maybe it's a good idea to give him a free pass for another year. Any ambitious club would have sacked him after we were knocked out of CL, no manager should have survived that (unless they had massive credit in the bank in the first place, which he quite obviously should not have had) and he's already got 5 months on top of that with no improvement whatsoever (arguably we are even worse now than we were then).
It's insane that it is even a discussion when his failure has been so spectacular. David Moyes is on the verge of being let go by West Ham for having the same season, and here we are talking that maybe ETH should be given another year.
You can genuinely make an argument, there's been at least 5 strong opportunities to sack him and it wouldn't have been underserved.
-7-0 loss to Liverpool
-3-0 loss to Bournemouth
-Crashing out of the CL group stages in embarrassing fashion
-Getting destroyed by Brentford(2nd most dominant performance of the season for all teams in the Prem for touches inside the opposition box)
-The 4-3 debacle vs Chelsea
-Giving up a 3-0 lead vs Coventry and winning in pens
He's very lucky he's still in a job.
I can see that. I still think that he is a decent head coach and could be a good short term option under more stringent conditions. But at the same time, is that really a better idea to keep what I believe is a known quantity that we will have to replace at some point instead of a more promising unknown quantity?
And to be clear, I'm still highly critical of what he has done this season.
Sacking him after Liverpool would have been silly, we were having a decent season and that was a freak result. November/December last year should have been the time to pull the trigger, I am sure any other club that is not stuck in its romantic approach and cult of a manager would have fired him after Copenhagen or after Bournemouth. Because we didn't, it was hard to fire him afterwards as we'd basically accepted that we are content with that level, we are OK with being embarrassed every other game and having 1 good performance a month. This is also why I do expect him to get another year, despite me thinking it's utterly insane to just write off seasons like that.
I don't believe it is.
I genuinely think his ceiling is just top 4 + decent domestic cup funs. Just like all of our managers post-SAF. We need someone better.
It would have been harsh I agree, but it was a historic defeat and one can argue he didn't have the goodwill in his CV and United CV to survive that kind of result.
I personally would have unequivocally sacked him after the Brentford game. Easily the worst performance the team has had post-SAF.
That's also how I rate him. In my mind the question is which gamble is the best, I prefer to go with someone else but I don't mind keeping him if we believe that the ideal target doesn't exist this summer.
Nah, every manager would have survived that. Mourinho lost 5-0 to Barcelona and while it was embarrassing, it wasn't cause for dismissal either. You don't judge managers by one result and everything prior to that game was fine.
If 7-0 happened now, on the back of a horrific season we've had, this would have been warranted and could have worked as a catalyst for change, though I am pretty sure he'd get a free pass for that now as well because of how low our standards have fallen in the last months. I don't think there's anything that could get him fired for the next 8-10 months.
Apart from City putting 6 past us a few months prior to that.
Mourinho survived that 5-0 because of how early it was in his Madrid tenure.
Mourinho's loss to Barcelona was also poor, but his CV was incomparable to ETH's. A few months ago, he knocked out the same Barcelona side and led Inter to the treble. That was also their first loss of the season. We had heavy defeats prior to the Liverpool loss as well.
And it's the greatest club side of all-time arguably dishing the loss. I don't think it's apples-to-apples, but I agree it would have been a harsh firing somewhat. But one can make an argument for it IMO.
Personally don't see how the board can justify keeping him considering the performances and results this season.
And if he had a similar 3rd season to the 2nd season, they'd look like fools.
No he did not injure his ankle.
Just having doubts about his abilities alone would be enough to get him sacked at any serious club in this situation. But all the conversations we're having are about making 100% sure he's not the right man. "Let's try to sack the whole club and sell half the players to see what happens first". Basically doing everything backwards and being the opposite of ruthless.To be fair at this point the only reason I can think of why someone would be so willing to persist with ETH is because they've invested so much personal stock in him that the sole thought of backtracking on that feels like too much effort.
Forget about football, no other organization in the world would give another YEAR to someone who has failed so badly at their job, even in corporate world the best you are going to get is 2-3 months to address your issues and if you don't it's curtains. He's already got so much time beyond what he should have got given his failures, yet here we are talking about how maybe it's a good idea to give him a free pass for another year. Any ambitious club would have sacked him after we were knocked out of CL, no manager should have survived that (unless they had massive credit in the bank in the first place, which he quite obviously should not have had) and he's already got 5 months on top of that with no improvement whatsoever (arguably we are even worse now than we were then).
It's insane that it is even a discussion when his failure has been so spectacular. David Moyes is on the verge of being let go by West Ham for having the same season, and here we are talking that maybe ETH should be given another year.
People just can't accept that ETH is very likely not what they thought he was. As if sacking him without making 100% sure he was to blame on his part would be some kind of monumental mistake and he's going to dominate football elsewhere.
That's the thing, I have zero issue with it. But, some really push the whole fallacy that if you're not happy, you're seething with rage. That's just disingenuous and bordering on gaslighting. People can be happy all they want, but they don't need to push it onto others in a semi-aggressive manner.
I personally just feel numb to it all tbh, like I have done at numerous points in the post-Fergie era. I don't get angry when we lose anymore, and I don't feel what could be described as joy by beating Sheffield United. I have no qualms saying that. It's been a rough 11 years, so I think it's pretty understandable that many fans are just drained by now. I actually find quite a lot of the 'positivity' on here is rather toxic at times and is used as a mechanism to shout down any criticism. It's also used as a mechanism to play the 'holier than thou' card. It's nothing new btw, we saw a tonne of it under both Jose and Ole, too.
In summary: Joy is fine, but when it becomes patronising and condescending to others, it becomes toxic.
He needs to go considering he wants a say in transfers and that in itself can not be allowed with his track record which has left us in a right state, the club needs a clean slate with a new manager coming in who agrees to the terms that they will have little power over transfers
Having a say in transfers isn't having full control. Besides, it's been reported he's happy to adapt to the new structure.
- Status