Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[WPMUFC]

I really have no idea how much Wilcox has to do with "assessing" Ten Hag. But let's say Ducker is on the money, and Ten Hag has to prove/explain himself to Wilcox, then I'd like to see the following topics explored:

Why do you prioritise Mctominay's ability to arrive late in the box for goal chances higher than controlling the midfield?
No matter the defensive make up of the back 4, why hasn't there been any attempt to stop cut back goals?
How are you going to rectify the conceding of goals moments after you take the lead? And why does it occur?
Are you letting transfer fees impact team selection (Antony)?

There are obviously more things to assess, but i tend to think these are some of the more baffling choices which have got us into this "every game is a heart attack" mentality. I think ETH has to explain and justify them, because I don't think any of us fans can seriously understand it when it plays out week after week without even the slightest sign of experimenting to see if changes can solve issues.

 

[RedBanker]

Sometimes, when someone is under performing in their job, all it takes is a small pat in the back to get them back on track. Thank god for those fans who are more invested in the club than the CAF armchairs. Turning on your manager is the worst thing a fan can do.

When you join the cult of the manager and forget what's good for your club. That's the worst thing.

 

[bringbackbebe]

When you join the cult of the manager and forget what's good for your club. That's the worst thing.

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

The same people who shout "Sack Ten Hag sell Fernandes" are the ones who prayed for months hoping he'll be our next manager and raved about him whole of last year. The same ones who thought Amrabat was going to be signing of the season, and wanted McTominay out.

If there's anything I've come to learn in a decade and a half of reading fan opinion on the Caf, it's to take the consensus opinion as not the right way, at least for the club, go about with things.

 

[iato89]

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

The same people who shout "Sack Ten Hag sell Fernandes" are the ones who prayed for months hoping he'll be our next manager and raved about him whole of last year. The same ones who thought Amrabat was going to be signing of the season, and wanted McTominay out.

If there's anything I've come to learn in a decade and a half of reading fan opinion on the Caf, it's to take the consensus opinion as not the right way, at least for the club, go about with things.

so because the club made past mistakes with manager, that is the reason we should stick with ETH? no top club in the world would give him another chance after this shambolic of a season!

 

[Amar__]

When you join the cult of the manager and forget what's good for your club. That's the worst thing.

Yep, this couldn't be more true.

 

[RedBanker]

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

The same people who shout "Sack Ten Hag sell Fernandes" are the ones who prayed for months hoping he'll be our next manager and raved about him whole of last year. The same ones who thought Amrabat was going to be signing of the season, and wanted McTominay out.

If there's anything I've come to learn in a decade and a half of reading fan opinion on the Caf, it's to take the consensus opinion as not the right way, at least for the club, go about with things.

This has been discussed to the death and beyond. Thing is you don't keep on someone not suited for the job because you hired wrong in the first place. And we have cycled through fewer managers than successful big clubs in the past decade. So what's the shame in admitting the mistake and moving on?

 

[edgecutter]

Are people seriously changing their minds after beating the worst team in the Premier league?

 

[Roboc7]

He's already threatened that and certainly won't walk into next season with only a year left on his contract. With Bayern geting desperate, I'm worried they might just pay the compensation and steal him from us.

Of course he will walk in with a year left, he’s not going to walk away from the huge payoff he will receive when he inevitably sacked. Even if he was to get a new contract it’s meaningless as it wouldn’t save him from the sack.

Bayern won’t be stealing from us, but I’m sure INEOS would be absolutely delighted if he did and would give them a profit rather than the huge compensation they’ll have to pay him otherwise.

 

[Toshey]

Some people fail to realise we are heading for below 60 points finish.
If we don't win FA cup, it's the worst season in PL history.

We celebrate managing to steal 2 draws and a last minute extra time win against Liverpool after getting battered for the majority of the three games. And now you're estatic we had 70% possession against the worst team in the league, whilst needing an 80th minute Bruno long range screamer to win!

Seriously, I've defended ETH so much this year. But in this thread sometimes I feel like I'm reading Crystal Palace cafe....

 

[bringbackbebe]

This has been discussed to the death and beyond. Thing is you don't keep on someone not suited for the job because you hired wrong in the first place. And we have cycled through fewer managers than successful big clubs in the past decade. So what's the shame in admitting the mistake and moving on?

If we've got 6 consecutive managerial appointments incorrect, it's not the manager who is to blame.

 

[sepulturite]

Are people seriously changing their minds after beating the worst team in the Premier league?

Yep at least a 4% drop in the "no" vote since I last looked after the match at the weekend. Crazy.

 

[Rista]

Wrong. My standard is we must be the best. We all want the club to win, everything. That’s really the underlying point. The success we really want isn’t measured by how many times you feck it up in season 2. It’s “are we the best again yet?”. The answer to that will be “no” for a good while yet.

I don’t think any manager could do better than Erik at the moment. Look at Poch. He was the other favourite for our job. They’re more fecked than us. Potter was another name, shite.

To do profoundly better than we have done so far is impossible. We don’t have the players. You must be able to see that.

So what is it about the players that suddenly having the worst season in modern history is our real level now? Why are we worse off after spending almost half a billion in 2 years? Totally not a cult.

If we've got 6 consecutive managerial appointments incorrect, it's not the manager who is to blame.

Vast majority of clubs get more than that many appointments "incorrect" by our standards. People have to realize there will not be another SAF. Even if another manager comes in and gets some results, it doesn't mean that will be it and we will persist with him forever. That's how football works.

 

[golden_blunder]

Up to 26% yes after last night. Emotional votes

 

[edgecutter]

Up to 26% yes after last night. Emotional votes

The last 5 games for this lot is going to be painful viewing.

 

[Lay]

Sometimes, when someone is under performing in their job, all it takes is a small pat in the back to get them back on track. Thank god for those fans who are more invested in the club than the CAF armchairs. Turning on your manager is the worst thing a fan can do.

Thank god they did that. We'll ignore them booing Nani and jeering Fellaini during the same time period though. Really invested in the club there.

 

[Rista]

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

70% into transition into shite. The main mistake we've made is that we allowed it to come to that. Always reacting late and acting as if we're better than other clubs and we don't sack our incompetent managers.

 

[Beachryan]

Really think anyone trying to shoe-horn last night's performance into this debate is just using it to see their already-made-up viewpoint.

To those saying ETH out: we conceded two goals against the worst team ever! HIS goalkeeper f*cked up. The finishing was terrible in the first half, he must not be training them correctly. Casemiro isn't a centre back! He spent 400m and this is what we get? What idiot starts AWB, who offers nothing?

To those saying it's not all ETH's fault: Onana f*cked up, in a way professional keepers occasionally do. See Becker, Allison for examples. Casemiro played CB because we have 6 injuries in defence. AWB played because there is literally no one else, even in the reserves. Of the spending, whatever the value, there are just 4 players out there that cost us fees, and 3 were fine. McTominay played in midfield because, again, there is literally no one else available, and Eriksen can't play a full match. Plus, we had 70 odd percent possession, created a ton of chances - some playing beautiful football - and also we won.

Personally I think we may need to get rid of ETH just because he's clearly cursed - if that huge deflection of big 'Arry had gone in to make it 3-2 off of 4 shots it really would have been something for the ages.

Fortunately, we now have actual football management in charge. Not emotional fans with limited understanding of the game. If these folks get together and decide the mitigating circumstances - of which there are many - mean that ETH could be successful next season with support, he'll stay. If they believe someone else could do a better job at implementing the football they want despite these circumstances, they'll try to get them and he'll go.

Either way, fans should be 'happy' about it - because better days are on the horizon.

 

[The Boy]

But in this thread sometimes I feel like I'm reading Crystal Palace cafe....

Harsh on @Shipperley

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

Are people seriously changing their minds after beating the worst team in the Premier league?

Not me

Bald is best

Is clear

 

[RedBanker]

If we've got 6 consecutive managerial appointments incorrect, it's not the manager who is to blame.

Yes we got all of them wrong

Moyes- duh
Lvg - dinosaur
Mourinho- already into his decline
Ole- should have never been made permanent, an emotional blunder because we love to live in the past
Rangnick- hadn't managed a top club in like ages, wasn't gonna be our saviour
ETh- not what we need, midtable manager with limited technical and strategic abilities.

 

[JeffFromHK]

Yes we got all of them wrong

Moyes- duh
Lvg - dinosaur
Mourinho- already into his decline
Ole- should have never been made permanent, an emotional blunder because we love to live in the past
Rangnick- hadn't managed a top club in like ages, wasn't gonna be our saviour
ETh- not what we need, midtable manager with limited technical and strategic abilities.

yes, all the 5 managers (interim Rangnick exluded) were either 2nd tier managers or 1st tier managers already on a decline
We never managed to hire a real 1st tier manager

 

[Rajma]

Yes we got all of them wrong

Moyes- duh
Lvg - dinosaur
Mourinho- already into his decline
Ole- should have never been made permanent, an emotional blunder because we love to live in the past
Rangnick- hadn't managed a top club in like ages, wasn't gonna be our saviour
ETh- not what we need, midtable manager with limited technical and strategic abilities.

Some can’t get their head around the fact that we have hired some absolutely bums and has beens that have failed since departing us. To add to the insult since they had an absolute control over our transfers due to non existent structure within the club they have managed to feck us over by signing complete duds.

 

[Telsim]

Wilcox has saved us!/s

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Standarts have fallen off a cliff.
Controling possession against Sheffield (destroyes by injuries) at OT is enough to convince people Erik deserves another year.
I mean we could have pulled off the same performance against this lot with Bruno as player-coach.

To convince me, we need strong performances against Newcastle, Arsenal and cup final win. Nothing less.
Especially if Newcastle second strings swipe the floor with us again, it will prove that there is zero progress.

Good post. This game shows nothing. Sheff Utd are one of the worst teams in PL history and they could’ve scored more.

 

[Sarni]

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

The same people who shout "Sack Ten Hag sell Fernandes" are the ones who prayed for months hoping he'll be our next manager and raved about him whole of last year. The same ones who thought Amrabat was going to be signing of the season, and wanted McTominay out.

If there's anything I've come to learn in a decade and a half of reading fan opinion on the Caf, it's to take the consensus opinion as not the right way, at least for the club, go about with things.

So basically you should never ever fire anyone that you hired because you wanted them in the first place. That should perhaps also extend to players because you also bought them on purpose because you wanted them. Right.

 

[bringbackbebe]

So basically you should never ever fire anyone that you hired because you wanted them in the first place. That should perhaps also extend to players because you also bought them on purpose because you wanted them. Right.

It's quite alright to fire a misfit but when most of the hires at both manager & player level over a decade are misfits, it points to a different problem which will hopefully be addressed with the new structure. ETH has got some tactics abysmally wrong, but I personally like the general direction in which the squad & culture is moving. If ETH doesn't fit the new structure, I'm all for replacing him. However, if he is being sacked as a knee jerk reaction to poor results, then we're idiots.

 

[JPRouve]

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

The same people who shout "Sack Ten Hag sell Fernandes" are the ones who prayed for months hoping he'll be our next manager and raved about him whole of last year. The same ones who thought Amrabat was going to be signing of the season, and wanted McTominay out.

If there's anything I've come to learn in a decade and a half of reading fan opinion on the Caf, it's to take the consensus opinion as not the right way, at least for the club, go about with things.

The main issue with that is that it's not normal for head coaches or clubs to require more than a year to transition successfully to a new style/philosophy and it also doesn't require the level of investment or squad turnover that United have systematically allowed.

Your description is somewhat correct but it's not to the benefit of our managers and it also exposes the ineptitude of the board. Those patterns show two things that they were subpar from a technical standpoint and that United for some crazy reason gave them way more resources than nearly any other similar club would.

 

[Insanity]

All of you who wanted him before and want him sacked after seeing us going nowhere under him...Shame on you! It's only right that you are called out for not militantly supporting a choice that on evidence simply isn't good enough.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He's already threatened that and certainly won't walk into next season with only a year left on his contract. With Bayern geting desperate, I'm worried they might just pay the compensation and steal him from us.

Deeply worrying times.

 

[golden_blunder]

The last 5 games for this lot is going to be painful viewing.

It’s going to have more ups and downs than a rollercoaster

 

[Robbie Boy]

If we've got 6 consecutive managerial appointments incorrect, it's not the manager who is to blame.

It's not really a coincidence that a terrible ownership model with zero structures in place appointed poorly.

When you look at what all our managers have gone on to do after they've left, it's pretty clear that they were either past it or, not good enough. Funnily enough, had we gotten our structures in place earlier, I feel that ETH is literally the only post-Fergie manager that they would have been likely to appoint.

 

[Cassidy]

I don't know why some of our fans pretend this is the toughest job in football.

It isn't. There's such a leniency throughout the club(hopefully INEOS change this going forward) for poor performances/results.

If ETH was in charge of Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern this season and produced these results/performances, do you really think he wouldn't have been sacked?

Xavi won La Liga with Barcelona and Culers wanted him out. If ETH won the Premier League here at one point, people would give him a lifetime of support.

It is one of the toughest jobs not from the fan support perspective but media scrutiny and support by the club ( the footballing structure)
Hopefully the later gets better

 

[TsuWave]

Up to 26% yes after last night. Emotional votes

Unserious group of people.

 

[JPRouve]

It's not really a coincidence that a terrible ownership model with zero structures in place appointed poorly.

When you look at what all our managers have gone on to do after they've left, it's pretty clear that they were either past it or, not good enough. Funnily enough, had we gotten our structures in place earlier, I feel that ETH is literally the only post-Fergie manager that they would have been likely to appoint.

Good ownership and supposed good structures have as many if not even more poor appointments. One key reason is that when you appoint a new manager, you don't actually know how he is going to do in a completely different environment(you judge their performances in different conditions and hope that they can translate it into yours) and since we are talking about a highly competitive context, not good enough is reached very quickly.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Good ownership and supposed good structures have as many if not even more poor appointments. One key reason is that when you appoint a new manager, you don't actually know how he is going to do in a completely different environment and since we are talking about a highly competitive context, not good enough is reached very quickly.

Probably. And that's why some need to stop treating our new structures as some holy grail. The next man might be another disaster, who knows.

But, it doesn't negate the fact that we've appointed managers in an utterly bewildering manner. For me, only Jose and ETH made any semblance of sense. Ole as caretaker was a good shout too, but should never have gone further than that.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Good ownership and supposed good structures have as many if not even more poor appointments. One key reason is that when you appoint a new manager, you don't actually know how he is going to do in a completely different environment(you judge their performances in different conditions and hope that they can translate it into yours) and since we are talking about a highly competitive context, not good enough is reached very quickly.

Probably. And that's why some need to stop treating our new structures as some holy grail. The next man might be another disaster, who knows.

But, it doesn't negate the fact that we've appointed managers in an utterly bewildering manner. For me, only Jose and ETH made any semblance of sense. Ole as caretaker was a good shout too, but should never have gone further than that.

Decent managers can do well and over achieve at well run clubs. Great managers and good managers are more likely to under perform at poorly run clubs , especially at a club with higher expectations.

There are other examples but Why can Avram grant be 2 games away from a league and CL double ? Is he world class? Were clubs falling over themselves to hire him after Chelsea ?

You guys are obsessed with the managerial position. You can’t seem to factor in how important all the other things are that make a club successfuo. Our club structure is way out of date. It was built for Ferguson. I think of it like how players in the past may of been able to drink and smoke and still be top performers in the game, there Are different levels of excellence but as a club United is one of the worst.

When Ferguson left , Woodward taking over effectively merged church and state, the commercial end blended with the football side. LVG said it straight out, Bayern being a fan owned club (where success on field is priority) I think was his example. Our owner’s priority is money and their success with United was marketing. They even said that “on field success does not affect revenues”. They left Ferguson to it but once he was gone they started to infect the club with different prioritie. I mean the fact “getting top 4” is a priority for a club as big as United gives us a hint if the level of their ambition.

Arsenal needed a change of ownership and their fortunes changed. It wasn’t just making Arteta manager. Similar with Liverpool. City can win with any manager they hire and United spend Similar amounts and yet you guys think United somehow Just need a good manager. I can’t understand how anybody could still be clinging onto this obsession.

None of this is a defence of ETH, although I get why a lot of you think it is when you bring everything back to the manager. SJR said it himself, this club has let every manager down and has not provided them with the best tools to succeed, tools that the best clubs provide to their managers. Throwing money badly at the problem is whats confused alot if you. Chelsea and United are The two shining examples of how not to spend money and the common denominator is not bad managers.

Top players know what is required to compete at the top level. Ronaldo, for all his messing, was scathing about Uniteds facilities. Theres just so many areas of United that are bad and it looks like SJR is at least trying to address it. I feel if he gets it right, managers will be easily replaced and even average managers will actually be able to do well. That’s why I don’t obsess over sacking ETH, I just don’t see it as important as what INEOs are hopefully doing in the background. Whatever decide I will try to give it time. Obsessing over the sacking of ETH is the smaller picture.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Are people seriously changing their minds after beating the worst team in the Premier league?

They think the increased possession stat is a sign of change also....

 

[troylocker]

It's quite alright to fire a misfit but when most of the hires at both manager & player level over a decade are misfits, it points to a different problem which will hopefully be addressed with the new structure. ETH has got some tactics abysmally wrong, but I personally like the general direction in which the squad & culture is moving. If ETH doesn't fit the new structure, I'm all for replacing him. However, if he is being sacked as a knee jerk reaction to poor results, then we're idiots.

First of all: I really wanted ETH in here and I believed he could be the one that could build a team that would play attractive attacking football with high press and could take us back to being title contenders again, but.......

What do you like about the general direction in which the squad and culture is moving? There is no direction, not that is visible and not in any direction pointing towards any light in the end of any tunnel I can see. Culture? We have a whole squad of players underperforming in a non system, implemented by ETH. If ETH is sacked now it's not a kneejerk to some poor results, it would be a knee jerk to a series of the worst team performances we have seen from a Manchester United tema since before Fergie, to not being able to integrate and implement a healthy training culture, to not being able to take care of our assets in an optimal way, for buying players clearly not good enough, for making the wrong tactical sub blunders over and over again, for lacking the necessary charisma and leadership needed for the job or for not being able to give the team even a hint of positive identity other than being a much worse team than we were 2 years ago.....or maybe just for the sum of all those things.

The league table lies: We have been a lot worse than the table suggests and our results has been extremely flattering concidering how poor our performances has been. All statistical data suggest we should have been in the bottom 5-6 teams based on chances created and chances conceded this season. There is no signs of progress, there is nothing indicating that we're heading somewhere we want to be. We were better at everything 12 months ago. Have you really seen anything you like from us the last 12 months, except glimpses of individual quality like with Bruno yesterday?

Sometimes what you order is not what you get. This is one of these cases.

 

[pocco]

Some people fail to realise we are heading for below 60 points finish.
If we don't win FA cup, it's the worst season in PL history.

We celebrate managing to steal 2 draws and a last minute extra time win against Liverpool after getting battered for the majority of the three games. And now you're estatic we had 70% possession against the worst team in the league, whilst needing an 80th minute Bruno long range screamer to win!

Seriously, I've defended ETH so much this year. But in this thread sometimes I feel like I'm reading Crystal Palace cafe....

They have also been pumped by Atalanta at home shortly after, lost to Palace and have just been rolled over by fecking Everton. I said before the Liverpool games that they are beatable with their injuries and that their defence could be got at. This isn't a Liverpool team anywhere near their previous levels.

 

[spiriticon]

Our plan with managers so far has been:
1. Hire a manager diametrically opposite in style/philosophy of the recently sacked manager
2. Allow him to make changes for a couple of years. This transition time will usually be chaotic with bad results.
3. Sack the manager 70% into his transition
4. Go back to step 1, rinse & repeat.

The same people who shout "Sack Ten Hag sell Fernandes" are the ones who prayed for months hoping he'll be our next manager and raved about him whole of last year. The same ones who thought Amrabat was going to be signing of the season, and wanted McTominay out.

If there's anything I've come to learn in a decade and a half of reading fan opinion on the Caf, it's to take the consensus opinion as not the right way, at least for the club, go about with things.

He is transitioning to nothing. He's already come out and openly said he won't play the way he did at Ajax so people who are waiting for that are going to be disappointed.

At the moment, he looks like he is working towards a form of Ole ball but with zero defending. I'm not sure I'm up for that.