Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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pcaming said:
While his appointment was met with deserved optimism and overall he may not be a bad coach, that does not mean that he cannot be classed as a bad coach of Manchester United. Last season was decent, certainly not our best in the past 10 years or so, and the only reason it's considered decent is because we got champions league football and a league cup. We however, ended the season terribly and suffered several hammerings (some which should be considered unacceptable) along the way.

This season has been a disaster, we have accomplished nothing as a team. There has been decisions made and stuck with that have cost us severely. ETH can complain about injuries all he wants, an injury crisis is nothing new to this squad and other managers have faired better. He abandoned, quite quickly, the style of football the fans wanted him to implement, he abandoned pragmatic football, and he has implemented chaos. The fact the not a single person outside of our management can find reason with the way we play is telling. It's not just folk hating United because we are United, there has been a genuine consensus (even among fans) that we are playing complete rubbish. Ten Hag doesn't need to test the squad (especially for such a long period) to see who will sink or swim, the average United supporter on the street could answer that question. There's certainly no need for him to derail our season.

We keep talking about squad overall this and squad overall that. In football that does not happen every year, and quite frankly the squad has had a decent overhauling. As a coach at this level, it should not take 2 seasons to get to the starting point of your philosophy. Folk will come on here and say "You lot would have gotten rid of Fergie", and maybe we would have. Football has changed and there's countless examples of coaches doing better in shorter periods.

The question it boils down to for me is, Can I see a bright future with Ten Hag. Subtracting all the issues of ownership, injuries, management etc, I am still thoroughly disappointed in him as the leader of this team. To me he has completely failed at his job. I do not see the situation as Ten Hag is holding Manchester United together with plasters and duct tape...he has himself contributed significantly to the damage we have sustained.

Some players need to be sent packing, but even then Maguire? McTominay? we shit on them but this season they've got on with it, they've bailed the team out several times. So as much as we could do with better players, we could also do with better coaching...or coaching to begin with.
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And the main job of a coach is to help everyone to swim and if possible swim at an olympic level. It's not to purposedly drown his players and himself.
 
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AshRK said:
Well that could be a reason why eth is kept. We can't magically create a competent manager. There has to be one available for a reasonably long term or else we will be working in circles.

I personally think eth should be sacked but no point wasting money on a new manager if that new manager is going to stagnate us.
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There's no point keeping him in post for a single season, given his contract expires next summer. He'll want to be involved in recruitment, which is a non-starter if he's not going to be here longer term.
 
tjb said:
I'm sorry, but at this point it's a ridiculous opinion to have. What some of our fans have shown us is that they actually don't know just how good Fergie was. It's insulting to act like any manager, even one conceding 20 shots a game without creating chances, can simply become great if given time. Like anyone can just be Fergie. Same reason Ole and Moyes got the job. Like the media, I don't think people understand just how great Fergie was tactically. This notion that his squad management and people skills were the factors that made him so great has come at the detriment of the club.

Fergie used a system that worked for the league and was so tactically smart that he could create and modify systems based on the personnel available to him. Getting the team to spray passes all over the pitch, maintaining a high intensity, getting numbers into the box, assuring outstanding wing play, having terrific counter attacks and links on the flanks, and ensuring that crosses had little impact on our goal. Fergie was regularly able to communicate these ideas to our squads, and his teams were effective in employing that on the pitch due to how he communicated to them and trained them. However, because he is Scottish and did not go into conferences discussing tactics, many people believe he was simply ordinary tactically. That's why people can think Ole could have grown into the role of manager or that Ten Haag can turn it around. Liverpool had the same exact thinking with their boot room philosophy, and eventually that led to their fall. So its no surprise we're here. The English media had a lot to do with that line of thinking with their overpraise for managers like Wenger and Mourinho bringing in differing tactics. We all watched our teams under Fergie, but many of us still don't seem to understand what excellent football looks like, and the managers we've hired have never come close to making our team truly competitive.
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Brilliant post
 
Question needs to be asked about our physio/fitness/medical team.
Only CB we have semi fit is Harry?!
Mount and Amrabat injured in training AGAIN?!!!
 
Toshey said:
Question needs to be asked about our physio/fitness/medical team.
Only CB we have semi fit is Harry?!
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There needs to be questions about the training methods too. It can’t all be due to bad luck.
 
stevoc said:
So banning a few players who misbehaved and regularly playing two of the best yongsters we've had in decades?

That's a very low bar mate to base giving him another season on. Literally any experienced manager could/would have did both.
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I really don't agree that's the case, as every previous manager post Fergie has been entirely beholden to player power. The squad discipline under ETH is noticeably better than under any of the other other managers and their approaches, from vibes to public humiliation.
 
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Djemba-Djemba said:
I didn't say he's done literally nothing well, last season was good overall although the downturn in performances post League Cup final was a sign of things to come.

This season I don't see any good signs though, it's been an utter disaster. I think it's been worse than even Moyes. I hold no animosity towards ETH, I like him and I really wish he'd been a huge success here. I just think he has to go.
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That's fair enough, I can understand where you're coming from, even if the Moyes thing is a bit of hyperbole.

I don't think the season has been good, but I can't think of any manager that would succeed given the lineups we've been forced to play due to injuries. Given that, I'd be happy if he got another season so we can actually try out his preferred system with players who can play it.
 
Leftback99 said:
Such a low bar.
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Perhaps, but it's something none of the other managers since Fergie have managed. Like I've said multiple times though, now that the new regime is in place, I'm happy enough if they want to move on and bring their own man in, as I expect them to have a consistent direction.
 
Another set of crazy injuries and we're down to 1 fit CB. Wtf is this guy doing.

He's lucky we're playing Coventry or else he would be out by Sunday night.
 
tjb said:
I'm sorry, but at this point it's a ridiculous opinion to have. What some of our fans have shown us is that they actually don't know just how good Fergie was. It's insulting to act like any manager, even one conceding 20 shots a game without creating chances, can simply become great if given time. Like anyone can just be Fergie. Same reason Ole and Moyes got the job. Like the media, I don't think people understand just how great Fergie was tactically. This notion that his squad management and people skills were the factors that made him so great has come at the detriment of the club.

Fergie used a system that worked for the league and was so tactically smart that he could create and modify systems based on the personnel available to him. Getting the team to spray passes all over the pitch, maintaining a high intensity, getting numbers into the box, assuring outstanding wing play, having terrific counter attacks and links on the flanks, and ensuring that crosses had little impact on our goal. Fergie was regularly able to communicate these ideas to our squads, and his teams were effective in employing that on the pitch due to how he communicated to them and trained them. However, because he is Scottish and did not go into conferences discussing tactics, many people believe he was simply ordinary tactically. That's why people can think Ole could have grown into the role of manager or that Ten Haag can turn it around. Liverpool had the same exact thinking with their boot room philosophy, and eventually that led to their fall. So its no surprise we're here. The English media had a lot to do with that line of thinking with their overpraise for managers like Wenger and Mourinho bringing in differing tactics. We all watched our teams under Fergie, but many of us still don't seem to understand what excellent football looks like, and the managers we've hired have never come close to making our team truly competitive.
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Fully agreed, I've said it many times that the way fans talk about giving managers time and carte blanche to do what they want in hope they turn into Fergie is so disrespectful and oblivious to how truly great Fergie was.

All these fans saying how important the next manager choice is and how we can't afford to get it wrong etc, have the wrong mentality - we can't afford to keep manager's that are not performing for too long, that is what will set us back. If we hire a manager and he flops, sack him and replace him just as all other clubs do, it's not that deep.
 
Toshey said:
Question needs to be asked about our physio/fitness/medical team.
Only CB we have semi fit is Harry?!
Mount and Amrabat injured in training AGAIN?!!!
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We have so many injuries during training, that it wouldn't surprise me if the culprit is ETH. He has proved to be terrible in all aspects of management, it is not strange if he is also terrible in training. The owners should get rid of ETH as soon as possible, it doesn't matter who the interim manager will be, just get rid of this guy.
 
I don't buy that it's training intensity.

I feel it's likely with the amount of injuries we've had consistently this season that we'd tone down the intensity long ago. The last thing you do when you keep getting injuries is maintain/increase the intensity of sessions.

I feel like just blaming the training is such a lazy guess as none of us have a clue what's actually involved.
 
Berbaclass said:
I don't buy that it's training intensity.

I feel it's likely with the amount of injuries we've had consistently this season that we'd tone down the intensity long ago. The last thing you do when you keep getting injuries is maintain/increase the intensity of sessions.

I feel like just blaming the training is such a lazy guess as none of us have a clue what's actually involved.
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Yeah we'd definitely change the intensity of training if it were causing problems.

The same way we would definitely change tactics if we were conceding 20+ shots per game
 
Atheist said:
There needs to be questions about the training methods too. It can’t all be due to bad luck.
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That's the only thing that needs to be questioned. I'm still baffled by the idea that people think that medical staffs are responsible for injuries or even conditioning. It's the job of the coaching staff, it's the job of the staff build and led by the head coach. Also the head coach has the brilliant tendency to not rotate when his players are fit, Ole used to do the same thing and predictably players went down one after the other.

One a side note I don't think that it's coincidence that Mourinho's teams started to look very apathetic the moment Rui Faria left, he was the one handling that side of things in Mourinho's staff.
 
tjb said:
That's why INEOS would be insane to give hime that chance. If he stays and we continue to perform this way, that would be a black mark on them regardless of how new they are. Much in the same way Arnold and Murtough were treated despite just taking leadership in 2022. There's no benefit in keeping him for us. He's clearly not a tactical wizard. So what's the point??

The only reason some people support him staying is to avoid being United perceived as a sacking club. The irony is that having the structures above him, as well as the change in job, should ensure that performances like his this season are addressed much more rapidly with a dismissal. I don't believe certain fans actually comprehend what's going on here. The manager will now be accountable to the DOF, who will keep a closer eye on him and intervene in squad management affairs. LVG, Ten Haag, and Mourinho will not be allowed to just transfer people out of the club for personal reasons; they must first obtain consent from the DOF. In reducing the role, we're acknowledging that in the modern game, managers can't have that amount of power. This isn't just about reallocating recruitment duties, this is about ensuring that managers don't abuse their power or make poor financial decisions that have long term implications.

Fallouts with Luke Shaw or Rafael would now be detrimental to the manager. Managers like Mourinho wouldn't just be able to isolate and bully players with the media lapping it up as "he knows what he's doing". Ten Haag and LVG wouldn't just be able to employ ridiculous tactical experiments with no explanation and assessment. Moyes and Ten Haag would have their coaching methods questioned. I also see this as an avenue for players to air their grievances without needing to go to the press. Fergie may not have been, but more than anything else, the last ten years should have taught fans that the role of manager that we currently employ can be tyrannical and result in poor decision making under a lot of managers.The new structure would entail less power and job security for the manager (head coach), because they can't be trusted to make big picture judgments in the best interests of the team. The system does not help Ten Haag manage players or apply tactics; it only ensures that his player management and tactics implementation are closely monitored. That is why the idea of keeping him to observe how he operates within the structure makes no sense.
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I think you kind of overstating the effects on the manager and why INEOS wants more responsibility with top class management. They concluded the big teams have these top class environments to aid guys like Pep, Klopp or whomever comes in as guru with transfers and scouting, and implement it throughout the club. Ten Hag himself was hired on a profile, a months long search and planning. But if you buy a Ferrari, you need a racetrack to seek its limits. You want a truck, the public road is fine. The transition of United to go play modern football takes time and effort.

You want Ten Hag to play low block possesion style he is not the man. Only in emergencies when there simply is nothing to win - vs City for instance, he went out of his usual style and parked the bus. As Ancelotti showed last wednesday, that is the most effective way to beat them. Ten Hag was 30 minutes away from beatng them, and 10 minutes away from getting a draw. The man is not stupid, he is not getting paid 9 million a year because he is just average. He just isn't.

Even if it makes no sense to see how Ten Hag operates within the new environment, it would equally be senseless to not find out if it actually makes a difference. And if a point comes Ten Hag needs to go, the most logic is that the new structure decides when, and who follows him up. That will takes months at least.
 
Berbaclass said:
I don't buy that it's training intensity.

I feel it's likely with the amount of injuries we've had consistently this season that we'd tone down the intensity long ago. The last thing you do when you keep getting injuries is maintain/increase the intensity of sessions.

I feel like just blaming the training is such a lazy guess as none of us have a clue what's actually involved.
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If it's not the training method than it's either the food, water or air that the players share in the training ground. It's necessarily something that they all have in common.
 
I think Mount might be the signing that ends him. Even worse than Antony who was at least a luxury signing after key additions were made. Ten Hag prioritised Mount and he's only played a few hundred minutes if that.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
Yeh, I want a purge but expect a more balanced
Approach by INEOs. I don’t get the Zidane links, feel like he’s a manager who is good with a squad ready to properly challange and I feel we are at least 2 summers (if we do it all well) away from that.
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Yeah I don't think Zidane will be interested in moving to Manchester or a long term project. To be honest he doesn't seem that interested in management in general.
 
tjb said:
I'm sorry, but at this point it's a ridiculous opinion to have. What some of our fans have shown us is that they actually don't know just how good Fergie was. It's insulting to act like any manager, even one conceding 20 shots a game without creating chances, can simply become great if given time. Like anyone can just be Fergie. Same reason Ole and Moyes got the job. Like the media, I don't think people understand just how great Fergie was tactically. This notion that his squad management and people skills were the factors that made him so great has come at the detriment of the club.

Fergie used a system that worked for the league and was so tactically smart that he could create and modify systems based on the personnel available to him. Getting the team to spray passes all over the pitch, maintaining a high intensity, getting numbers into the box, assuring outstanding wing play, having terrific counter attacks and links on the flanks, and ensuring that crosses had little impact on our goal. Fergie was regularly able to communicate these ideas to our squads, and his teams were effective in employing that on the pitch due to how he communicated to them and trained them. However, because he is Scottish and did not go into conferences discussing tactics, many people believe he was simply ordinary tactically. That's why people can think Ole could have grown into the role of manager or that Ten Haag can turn it around. Liverpool had the same exact thinking with their boot room philosophy, and eventually that led to their fall. So its no surprise we're here. The English media had a lot to do with that line of thinking with their overpraise for managers like Wenger and Mourinho bringing in differing tactics. We all watched our teams under Fergie, but many of us still don't seem to understand what excellent football looks like, and the managers we've hired have never come close to making our team truly competitive.
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It’s fine to disagree with the opinion and call it ridiculous even. Most of the arguments center around cost/benefit tradeoffs at the margin and whether mitigating circumstances preclude a proper assessment of whether the manager should change.

But what on earth is an EtH cultist? What a daft and unproductive thing to bring to the conversation.
 
Berbaclass said:
I don't buy that it's training intensity.

I feel it's likely with the amount of injuries we've had consistently this season that we'd tone down the intensity long ago. The last thing you do when you keep getting injuries is maintain/increase the intensity of sessions.

I feel like just blaming the training is such a lazy guess as none of us have a clue what's actually involved.
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In fairness our midfield has been open all season and nothing has been done to tone that issue down.

It's difficult to know for sure what's going on behind the scenes but the fact it's happening to so many mean it's not a freak but something that they're doing as a collective which the manager would be responsible for overseeing.
 
stevoc said:
Yeah I don't think Zidane will be interested in moving to Manchester or a long term project. To be honest he doesn't seem that interested in management in general.
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I would be surprised if he was interested in United but as far as understand he wanted to take a sabbatical and be a candidate for the France job. Also if rumors are correct he was actually in contact with the FFF which led to some drama because Deschamps was under contract and also in negotiation for an extension.
 
RORY65 said:
In fairness our midfield has been open all season and nothing has been done to tone that issue down.

It's difficult to know for sure what's going on behind the scenes but the fact it's happening to so many mean it's not a freak but something that they're doing as a collective which the manager would be responsible for overseeing.
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There is more than one person involved in running training. ETH alone decides the tactics. Slightly different IMO.
 
The Hilton said:
I really don't agree that's the case, as every previous manager post Fergie has been entirely beholden to player power. The squad discipline under ETH is noticeably better than under any of the other other managers and their approaches, from vibes to public humiliation.
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Pretty sure they all banned and disciplined players. The difference under Ten Hag is I think maybe some of the disruptive elements had moved on before he took over.

But if we're being honest have his measures disciplinary measures haven't really as successful as you say? We're still having problems like Sancho (which could have been handled better by both) and a senior player like Rashford fecking off midweek to have a piss up after more than a year into his tenure.
 
Berbaclass said:
There is more than one person involved in running training. ETH alone decides the tactics. Slightly different IMO.
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He is the one leading the staff, you are making a distinction that doesn't actually exist. Also physical training is a key part of coaching badges, all managers are required to have a solid understanding of athletic conditioning and development.
 
The Hilton said:
That's fair enough, I can understand where you're coming from, even if the Moyes thing is a bit of hyperbole.

I don't think the season has been good, but I can't think of any manager that would succeed given the lineups we've been forced to play due to injuries. Given that, I'd be happy if he got another season so we can actually try out his preferred system with players who can play it.
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Define succeed?
 
JPRouve said:
He is the one leading the staff, you are making a distinction that doesn't actually exist. Also physical training is a key part of coaching badges, all managers are required to have a solid understanding of athletic conditioning and development.
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How so?
 
Berbaclass said:
How so?
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It's his staff, he is the one leading every aspects of the team training, he obviously delegates the day to day work but the season and weekly plannings are his responsibility. He is also the most senior member of the staff and the one supposed to demand or lead changes.
 
Berbaclass said:
There is more than one person involved in running training. ETH alone decides the tactics. Slightly different IMO.
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Yes but Ten Hag is their boss. If they're doing crazy shit that's causing injuries he would notice. Unless of course much like his tactics the crazy shit is his idea.
 
JPRouve said:
It's his staff, he is the one leading every aspects of the team training, he obviously delegates the day to day work but the season and weekly plannings are his responsibility. He is also the most senior member of the staff and the one supposed to demand or lead changes.
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Yes I'm aware but my point is that there are other departments other than just the coaching departments that have an influence on training, who takes part and at what intensity. ETH will have to work with the medical department and the strength and conditioning guys.

The manager and manager alone dictates tactics.

This is also a bit of a pointless discussion as we also don't know what is causing the injuries for sure.
 
JPRouve said:
I would be surprised if he was interested in United but as far as understand he wanted to take a sabbatical and be a candidate for the France job. Also if rumors are correct he was actually in contact with the FFF which led to some drama because Deschamps was under contract and also in negotiation for an extension.
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Yes I've heard those rumours. I maybe should have said he doesn't seem interested in club management.
 
stevoc said:
Yes but Ten Hag is their boss. If they're doing crazy shit that's causing injuries he would notice. Unless of course much like his tactics the crazy shit is his idea.
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How likely is it that he just ignores the advice of the medical department for example?
 
Berbaclass said:
Yes I'm aware but my point is that there are other departments other than just the coaching departments that have an influence on training, who takes part and at what intensity. ETH will have to work with the medical department and the strength and conditioning guys.

The manager and manager alone dictates tactics.

This is also a bit of a pointless discussion as we also don't know what is causing the injuries for sure.
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The strength and condotioning staffs are members of the training staff. And the medical staff doesn't influence training, their job is limited to injury management, they take care of players that are already injured or that show signs of being at risk of injuries.

I dumbfounded by the fact that so many of you have no idea about how sports structures work. The training staff in all sports is in charge of three things the technical, tactical and physical training and development of athletes. That's why a very large amount of coaches are literal PE teachers, it's one of the basis to get into professional coaching especially when you are not a former professional athlete.
 
Berbaclass said:
There is more than one person involved in running training. ETH alone decides the tactics. Slightly different IMO.
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There is more than one person involved in training. There is more than one person involved in transfers. There is more than one person involved in tactics. But the person who had overall responsibility for everything was ETH, and he proved to be incapable. If someone else was responsible for all these injuries during training, this other person should have been fired already by ETH. If the person responsible for all these injuries is ETH himself... well, he isn't going to fire himself, right?
 
JPRouve said:
The strength and condotioning staffs are members of the training staff. And the medical staff doesn't influence training, their job is limited to injury management, they take care of players that are already injured or that show signs of being at risk of injuries.

I dumbfounded by the fact that so many of you have no idea about how sports structures work. The training staff in all sports is in charge of three things the technical, tactical and physical training and development of athletes. That's why a very large amount of coaches are literal PE teachers, it's one of the basis to get into professional coaching especially when you are not a former professional athlete.
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Yes, becasue every club is the same.
 
Very likeable in some ways, but he hasn't worked out all things considered and most of it is his recruitment pickings have been abysmally bad.
 
NLunited said:
Mark Robins called out that the media is talking about MU in a ‚derisory‘ manner. This is certainly the case and I would argue many posters here are guilty of the same.

Facts are, as Robins and Ten Hag say, we can beat anybody (and lose to anyone) and we‘ve beaten every top team in the league under Ten Hag.

The following type comments make me consider a poster a ‚Ten Hag Out Cultist‘:

1 Minimizing Ten Hag‘s accomplishments before MU

2 Not taking into account injury crises (plural)

3 Ten Hag did not improve players

4 We have no discernible style

5 Minimizing last season‘s overaccomplishment

6 Discounting bad seasons by other top managers


The media does not talk like this about Chelsea: they have been a much bigger mess than us, with a new 250+ million midfield.

We have been shite but there are ways to criticize and discuss without seeming like oppo fans who are wumming.

We are now at a point where you get banned for being positive (must be an oppo WUM).

I‘m ETH out at the moment but still have hope things may turn around.
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Maybe because its Poch’s first season with a team mainly consisting of youngsters, albeit expensive youngsters.
You get a lot more leeway if you are making mistakes in the first season, but it looks like you could be building something. For all of Chelsea’s downfalls, they still have been able to present a good account of themselves against the Top 6.

This is EtH’s second season and the team this season is looking very different from last year. He went from a decently compact midfield to a team structure with midfielders being pushed up and a huge gap in midfield.
I agree there is a style of play - it is just not very good nor looks anywhere close to ever being successful, even if EtH was allowed to buy 11 new players of his preference.
 
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