Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[stevoc]

People already said it but it needs to be said again. Both clubs are absolutely bad in the context of top level Football. It's shocking that you even tried to suggest otherwise, also the Turkish league is terrible and has been terrible for way more than a decade.

Indeed. Finishing last in that group was a complete and utter embarassment. That alone would have been enough justification for the manager to lose his job, in hindsight he should have. We might have salvaged something from this season.

 

[Cassidy]

Indeed. Finishing last in that group was a complete and utter embarassment. That alone would have been enough justification for the manager to lose his job, in hindsight he should have. We might have salvaged something from this season.

It would have been a massive overreaction (given the previous season).
If he loses it now though it would be justified

 

[Alex99]

Which players are medicore is very subjective. You can't have 24 World Class players, every squad even title winning squads need squad players who are good enough to come in and do a job while not actually being good enough to be first choice. Selling 20-25+ players and bringing the same in over a 2-3 year period is something this club has tried twice now. The first time under LVG it was a spectacular failure and hobbled his predecessors for years with Solskjaer only clearing out the last of the shit he bought in 2020-2021. We've embarked on a similar gutting of the squad over the last 2 years and all indications are it isn't going any better this time around.

Personally I'd like to see a manager get more out of the players we currently have, while upgrading on them in a more organic way.




How much is a handful?

I've not said we need 24 world class players. However, it'd be quite easy to argue that we currently have none. The problem that we have is that we have far too many players of "squad player" level and not enough that are actually of a level to compete at the top, which is where we want to be. Even of the ones that are potentially good enough, there are concerns over fitness (Shaw, Martinez), age (Casemiro, Varane) or tactical suitability (Fernandes, Rashford) with some of them.

I've also not said we need to do this in a summer or two. It's precisely why I said:

I think there's a reasonable chance we finish outside of the top 6 next season, even with a new manager bringing better performances.

It's likely to be a slow(ish) process but we can expect to see significant overhaul within three or four seasons.

I've gone over this before, but of the squad Klopp inherited (Mignolet, Clyne, Moreno, Can, Milner, Firmino, Coutinho, Lallana, Lovren, Lucas, Sakho, Skrtel, Henderson, Benteke, Ibe and Sturridge all starting at least 10 league games), only Milner, Firmino, Lallana, Lovren and Henderson (and Gomez, who was injured for most of 2015/16) remained when Liverpool won the PL. Of those, only Firmino, Henderson and Gomez made 10 or more starts, and both Lallana and Lovren were let go the following summer.

The squad Arteta inherited at Arsenal is similar. Aubameyang, David Luiz, Leno, Pepe, Lacazette, Kolasinac, Guendouzi, Sokratis, Cabellos, Ozil, Torreira, Maitland-Niles, Bellerin, Mustafi, Chambers all made 10 or more starts in 19/20. None are at the club this season. In fact, only Xhaka, Saka and Tierney made 10 or more starts in 19/20 and were still at the club last season, and only Saka remains now.

Just because we've fecked up overhauls previously doesn't mean that's not what we need now. As I said, anyone expecting us to get back to the top (or even close to the top) while we're still relying on the likes of Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, McTominay, Evans and Martial to play regularly is deluding themselves.

 

[Zed 101]

It would have been a massive overreaction (given the previous season).
If he loses it now though it would be justified

Whilst I understand what you are saying, I would circle back around to the big club mentality and how we are willing to accept mediocrity as fans.... name another top club where he would have kept his job?

 

[Cassidy]

Whilst I understand what you are saying, I would circle back around to the big club mentality and how we are willing to accept mediocrity as fans.... name another top club where he would have kept his job?

Liverpool and Arsenal

 

[stevoc]

It would have been a massive overreaction (given the previous season).
If he loses it now though it would be justified

Not sure it would have been, especially when the writing was on the wall for how our season was going. We won 1 game out of 6 in one of the easiest groups in the competition. And that one win was a scrappy 1-0 at home.

 

[Cassidy]

Not sure it would have been, especially when the writing was on the wall for how our season was going. We won 1 game out of 6 in one of the easiest groups in the competition. And that one win was a scrappy 1-0 at home.

I would have but we can agree to disagree, hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[golden_blunder]

Hypothetically

if ETH was given another year and played the same tactic but added all the players he thinks he needs in all the positions he thinks he needs cover in

and the result is still huge holes in midfield, players looking like they don’t know each other, and continuing injuries during training..

would those backing him now change their minds or do they need another year?

 

[Cassidy]

Hypothetically

if ETH was given another year and played the same tactic but added all the players he thinks he needs in all the positions he thinks he needs cover in

and the result is still huge holes in midfield, players looking like they don’t know each other, and continuing injuries during training..

would those backing him now change their minds or do they need another year?

I don't see how anyone would back him in that scenario

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Hypothetically

if ETH was given another year and played the same tactic but added all the players he thinks he needs in all the positions he thinks he needs cover in

and the result is still huge holes in midfield, players looking like they don’t know each other, and continuing injuries during training..

would those backing him now change their minds or do they need another year?

Then you might also have the problem that if he makes the players look so bad a new manager coming in might want rid of a load of the players he has just brought in. That would depend on which manager we bring in. If it were someone who demands big signings or one who has the confidence in his coaching ability to work with whatever he is handed.

 

[JPRouve]

It would have been a massive overreaction (given the previous season).
If he loses it now though it would be justified

When you deservedly finish last of your CL group, you deserve to be sacked. Not necessarily on the spot but unless you produce a miracle during the rest of the season, that alone should see you sacked at the end of the season. If you are managing a top club.

There are two reasons, the first one is that from a Football standpoint it's a massive underperformance and the second reason is that it will cost the club north of 50m. It's one of those things that are just not acceptable.

 

[Cassidy]

When you deservedly finish last of your CL group, you deserve to be sacked. Not necessarily on the spot but unless you produce a miracle during the rest of the season, that alone should see you sacked at the end of the season. If you are managing a top club.

There are two reasons, the first one is that from a Football standpoint it's a massive underperformance and the second reason is that it will cost the club north of 50m. It's one of those things that are just not acceptable.

So you agree with my post then?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

When you deservedly finish last of your CL group, you deserve to be sacked. Not necessarily on the spot but unless you produce a miracle during the rest of the season, that alone should see you sacked at the end of the season.

If you are managing a top club, there are two reasons the first one is that from a Football standpoint it's a massive underperformance and the second reason is that it will cost the club north of 50m. It's one of those things that are just not acceptable.

The fact we won't get CL next season and are scrabbling about to get even EL, he really isn't doing himself any favours. This is the first weekend the players are starting to show dissent. Up to now the players he has picked for his squad have tried to go along with his tactics, but even they see they are getting hung out to dry every game.

 

[golden_blunder]

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have qualified from that group, because clearly we were in great positions in the group games and threw it away with stupid errors and individual mistakes but I think many fans underestimated these teams.
edit - I made a mistake for which I plea for forgiveness. It doesn’t need to pointed out time and again, let’s move on.

Come on fella let’s admet we were out of our depth in the CL. Even the foriners worked out how to beat are silly system

 

[JPRouve]

So you agree with my post then?

No, I don't think that it would be an overreaction, let alone a massive overreaction. I could convince myself to not sack him on the spot but sacking him midseason would be deserved.

 

[idek2346]

Nagelsman
Motta
Potter

In that order for me, I dont mind Potter at all tbh.

Agreed with this for the most part. RDZ over Potter for me though. He slightly comes out ahead for me.

 

[Cassidy]

Come on fella let’s admet we were out of our depth in the CL. Even the foriners worked out how to beat are silly system

The UCL exit was caused mainly due to individual errors and poor mentality rather than some tactical flaw, to be perfectly honest.
Doesn't change the end result though

 

[NLunited]

A bad run can happen but there needs to be something that indicates things can be turned around. I didn‘t see anything hopeful against Bournemouth.

I now think that Ten Hag is failing at turning it around and achieving any consistency. In fact, we are regressing.

Even with injuries and other issues factored in, we are underperforming.

 

[golden_blunder]

The UCL exit was caused mainly due to individual errors and poor mentality rather than some tactical flaw, to be perfectly honest.
Doesn't change the end result though

I was joking in that post. However in CL he needs to learn how to shut up shop

 

[stevoc]

I've not said we need 24 world class players. However, it'd be quite easy to argue that we currently have none. The problem that we have is that we have far too many players of "squad player" level and not enough that are actually of a level to compete at the top, which is where we want to be. Even of the ones that are potentially good enough, there are concerns over fitness (Shaw, Martinez), age (Casemiro, Varane) or tactical suitability (Fernandes, Rashford) with some of them.

I've also not said we need to do this in a summer or two. It's precisely why I said:



It's likely to be a slow(ish) process but we can expect to see significant overhaul within three or four seasons.

I've gone over this before, but of the squad Klopp inherited (Mignolet, Clyne, Moreno, Can, Milner, Firmino, Coutinho, Lallana, Lovren, Lucas, Sakho, Skrtel, Henderson, Benteke, Ibe and Sturridge all starting at least 10 league games), only Milner, Firmino, Lallana, Lovren and Henderson (and Gomez, who was injured for most of 2015/16) remained when Liverpool won the PL. Of those, only Firmino, Henderson and Gomez made 10 or more starts, and both Lallana and Lovren were let go the following summer.

The squad Arteta inherited at Arsenal is similar. Aubameyang, David Luiz, Leno, Pepe, Lacazette, Kolasinac, Guendouzi, Sokratis, Cabellos, Ozil, Torreira, Maitland-Niles, Bellerin, Mustafi, Chambers all made 10 or more starts in 19/20. None are at the club this season. In fact, only Xhaka, Saka and Tierney made 10 or more starts in 19/20 and were still at the club last season, and only Saka remains now.

Well to be fair you said we need to ''gut the squad''. To gut something usually means to rip out a load of stuff in a short space of time. Other than that I'd agree it will take 3-4 seasons to transform the squad, hopefully this time we don't let the manager pick targets.

Just because we've fecked up overhauls previously doesn't mean that's not what we need now. As I said, anyone expecting us to get back to the top (or even close to the top) while we're still relying on the likes of Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, McTominay, Evans and Martial to play regularly is deluding themselves.

I doubt anyone actually thinks we could win a league or compete with those 5 as regulars, I know I don't.

 

[Plant0x84]

Come on fella let’s admet we were out of our depth in the CL. Even the foriners worked out how to beat are silly system

I think we scrape through the group if we had a DDG in goal. Onana was adjusting to Utd/England/PL and his rough start cost us dearly.

 

[Cassidy]

No, I don't think that it would be an overreaction, let alone a massive overreaction. I could convince myself to not sack him on the spot but sacking him midseason would be deserved.

Fair enough, sure we don't agree.
Would you have sacked Fergie during the 05/06 season?
Or Klopp 14/15? (I think it was Klopp)

 

[Roboc7]

He’s done such a bad job this season and resorted to awful tactics that do not work and aren’t giving him anything sustainable to build on. There is a lot of mitigation this season but he has made the team into such a mess that the focus has rightly now shifted to him.

INEOS were probably setting quite a low bar to retain him because of all the upheaval and all the financial restraints and he’s surely nowhere near that with things probably going to be even worse by the end of the season.

The only option is to sack him and I am sure that’s what will happen, no point in wasting more time and money.

 

[Ubik]

I feel like there's an overestimation of how many people still want him to stay. I'd be surprised if there were as many as 10% in a poll.

 

[Plant0x84]

I was joking in that post. However in CL he needs to learn how to shut up shop

Well his system isn’t going to concede many goals in the CL next year, maybe he learned?

 

[JPRouve]

Fair enough, sure we don't agree.
Would you have sacked Fergie during the 05/06 season?

No because SAF had a lot of credit in the bank and a track record at the absolute highest level. ETH has no money in the bank, he has done nothing for this club to deserve a high level of leniency.

 

[Cassidy]

No because SAF had a lot of credit in the bank and a track record at the absolute highest level. ETH has no money in the bank, he has done nothing for this club to deserve a high level of leniency.

I guess that's where we disagree. Ultimately, the question for me is, was it an isolated event/something out of the ordinary for the manager or systemic? The club it happened at has no baring for me, that's the only relevant question IMO

 

[Plant0x84]

He’s done such a bad job this season and resorted to awful tactics that do not work and aren’t giving him anything sustainable to build on. There is a lot of mitigation this season but he has made the team into such a mess that the focus has rightly now shifted to him.

I don’t understand this point, how has he made the team a mess? I don’t think playing AWB at LB is his ideal solution. I don’t think he would willingly play 27 different back 4 combinations. I don’t think he has forced all the individual errors we’ve seen across the team. I think what he has done however is patch up and battle on as best he can through a terrible season.
He has also found a way to get the best from periphery squad players like McT, he’s bought in youth like Mainoo and Garnacho. It’s not all bad - but there is no balance to the arguement now.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I feel like there's an overestimation of how many people still want him to stay. I'd be surprised if there were as many as 10% in a poll.

If it was a straight forward question of to sack him or not, given the results, then yes you are right.

The thread is a mix of people who want us to wait for the structure above him to be sorted first, because there has been enough manager merry go round and we don't want to get another manager just for the sake of it.

And a crowd that is thinking in terms of "Who will be the next manager? If it is Potter or Southgate, then no thanks, we will keep ETH"

Several posters want to interpret these two sections under "Deluded fans who still want ETH"

 

[Alex99]

Well to be fair you said we need to ''gut the squad''. To gut something usually means to rip out a load of stuff in a short space of time. Other than that I'd agree it will take 3-4 seasons to transform the squad, hopefully this time we don't let the manager pick targets.



I doubt anyone actually thinks we could win a league or compete with those 5 as regulars, I know I don't.

I'd say it still counts as gutting the squad, but at this point we're just arguing semantics.

Personally, I don't much stock in the "improve players" line and won't judge our next manager on not managing to make a bunch of clearly limited players look like world-beaters. The problem with Ten Hag isn't that he's failed to coach these players to play his system, it's that he a) doesn't seem to know what his system actually is and b) has failed to adapt to not having the personnel for his system.

We tried it for the first two games last season, saw we didn't have the players, so adapted, and actually looked quite good. For some reason, he's just persisted this season, despite injuries meaning the squad has been in an arguably worse state for much of it, and we've looked absolutely hopeless for at least part of almost every game, even the ones we've won.

 

[stevoc]

I would have but we can agree to disagree, hindsight is a wonderful thing

To be fair some people thought it at the time. The 4-3 loss against Copenhagen was when my doubts about Ten Hag were comfirmed and I lost faith in him. This was my post from the night we played Copenhagen away (after months of poor results/form), I feared where things were going after watching us that night.

I'd been of the opinion he needs time but this performance, team selection, subs, game management, tactics, everything has been a farce.

A complete and utter farce. He has to go, he's had a chance to turn it around. It's got worse.

No, I don't think that it would be an overreaction, let alone a massive overreaction. I could convince myself to not sack him on the spot but sacking him midseason would be deserved.

Is what should have happened. And probably would have happened if not for the takeover dragging on leaving everyone in limbo.

 

[stevoc]

I'd say it still counts as gutting the squad, but at this point we're just arguing semantics.

Personally, I don't much stock in the "improve players" line and won't judge our next manager on not managing to make a bunch of clearly limited players look like world-beaters. The problem with Ten Hag isn't that he's failed to coach these players to play his system, it's that he a) doesn't seem to know what his system actually is and b) has failed to adapt to not having the personnel for his system.

We tried it for the first two games last season, saw we didn't have the players, so adapted, and actually looked quite good. For some reason, he's just persisted this season, despite injuries meaning the squad has been in an arguably worse state for much of it, and we've looked absolutely hopeless for at least part of almost every game, even the ones we've won.

Fair enough.

Agree on Ten Hag.

 

[Roboc7]

I don’t understand this point, how has he made the team a mess? I don’t think playing AWB at LB is his ideal solution. I don’t think he would willingly play 27 different back 4 combinations. I don’t think he has forced all the individual errors we’ve seen across the team. I think what he has done however is patch up and battle on as best he can through a terrible season.
He has also found a way to get the best from periphery squad players like McT, he’s bought in youth like Mainoo and Garnacho. It’s not all bad - but there is no balance to the arguement now.

I think it’s pretty obvious why we are a mess, every team walks through us and has 20 plus shots a game, it’s by design and he is unwilling and/or unable to do anything about it. There is no balance to the argument when people have convinced themselves this was all he could do and can’t understand why it is criticised.

 

[Plant0x84]

I think it’s pretty obvious why we are a mess, every team walks through us and has 20 plus shots a game, it’s by design and he is unwilling and/or unable to do anything about it. There is no balance to the argument when people have convinced themselves this was all he could do and can’t understand why it is criticised.

If it’s by design why would he change it? If he is happy to allow teams to take distant pot shots then why would he do anything about it. I also don’t understand why he would want to face so many shots in a game, especially when we aren’t controlling games or even dominating the ball. It’s definitely a strange system given the players available to him.

 

[Lay]

Trying to defend the god awful UCL campaign is just too much now. Galatasaray hadn't won away in the UCL proper since 2012! They're a shite team in European competition standards and were exposed as such in the Europa League where they got absolutely hammered by Sparta Prague.

They're ranked 53rd in the coefficient and Copenhagen are 44th.

 

[JPRouve]

I guess that's where we disagree. Ultimately, the question for me is, was it an isolated event/something out of the ordinary for the manager or systemic? The club it happened at has no baring for me, that's the only relevant question IMO

You disagree with the idea of judging SAF in 05/06 and ETH differently? In the case of ETH you are talking about a manager that failed in the group stages, 4 of the last 6 years. Then you can add the performances in the results in the EL where he never went beyond the QF.

If we judge ETH's past performances in Europe, it's one very good season in 19/20. And after that lots of underachievement against comparable opponents or deservedly losing to better teams. What he has done in the CL this season or the EL last season is closer to ordinary than anything else. The out of ordinary event was the CL run in 18/19, similar to Jardim

 

[Ali Dia]

You’ve had an absolute ‘mare here with these posts. I understand emotions are running high, but a bit of common sense wouldn’t go amiss.

Firstly, we’ve heard more from SJR in the last three months, than we’ve heard from the Glazers in 19 years of ownership. Secondly, we’ve appointed Berrada already, who starts at the end of the season, and we are going to have Wilcox and Ashworth once compensation is sorted. Newcastle playing silly buggers only makes them look daft, not us. All the appointments are “best in class” and have been widely lauded in the media and across the fan base. Your exception noted.

Thirdly, SJR has already paid off 120m of our revolving credit facility, which while not touching the acquisition debt, just highlights that your claim about no movement on debt is patently false.

Fourthly, the idea that any off the field restructuring during the season will have any effect on fortunes on the pitch in the near term, is about as naive an expectation as I can imagine. The fact that the new minority owners have already let go the DoF, and CEO, as well as appointed a new - highly coveted - CEO and are closing on deals for a much heralded DoF and Technical Director - not to mention the new stadium task force in conjunction with the government and City of Manchester - is no shortage of proactive achievement in a very short space of time. In fact, one can say that this is the most focused and decisive United have been off the field in a very, very long time.

When talking about the debt, and the cost of a new stadium, it’s best just to admit that you know nothing about what the finance plans are. Because that’s what you know….nothing. None of us know what SJR plans to do about it or how a new stadium will be financed; but suffice to say it won’t be a case of finding a couple of billion down the back of the couch and paying off the debt as soon as he arrives. Least of all, to meet your preposterous expectations. What we do know is that we’ve had more information, more actual movement, and more communication from Ineos about revamping or replacing the stadium, then we’ve ever gotten from the Glazers. Again, in 3 months versus 19 years.

For a long time at United football decisions have not been made by football people. It’s been made very clear that this is going to change moving forwards, hence us going after the best football operations people we can identify. With that in mind, the decision on sacking the coach and who to replace him with, will most likely be made in concert with those key people. Not by the owner alone, and not without considerable forethought going in to what the long term vision is. I can only surmise from the limited intelligible content in your outrage, that you expect SJR to be vocal in the media about how bad results are and how low standards and performance are. Is that something you really want in a new owner? Lambasting the coach and players in public? He’s already made it clear that current standards and performance are well below what is acceptable at United and that his goal is to put us back on top; now is the time to let his actions do the speaking; not throwing a public fit. And in those terms, with his removal of Arnold and Murtough, and impending appointments of Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth, he is doing exactly that. Exactly what I would want to see from a serious owner, not talk or limb thrashing in the media.

SJR, I feel, has communicated very clearly that there is a strong strategic vision for United. A vision that is going to be driven by the results of the ongoing structural review, and the inputs of key football people. There won’t be any short term, knee jerk thinking; because that’s the last thing the club needs at this point, and no way to actually put the club back at the top. We’ve been told that the strategy is to identify the playing style, and appoint the best coach we can get to implement it; with an overarching structure controlling and evaluating recruitment, performance management, youth development etc., that remains constant despite coaching changes. That doesn’t happen overnight, but nevertheless appears to be happening very quickly.

It’s honestly hard to know whether to take your posts seriously or not. Or if you are just trolling. If those are your real thoughts, then I can only conclude that you are not a serious person, and/or don’t understand even basic organisational principles like strategic intent, let alone more complex facets like financial and managerial accounting, change management, strategic and structural analysis, operational excellence, resource allocation etc etc.

To save yourself a lot of heartache and headache, please internalise the reality that the success of an owner driven organisational change project should be measured in years, not weeks or months. Even by appointing a new coach, whether or not that can be deemed a success or failure, is likely to take at least 6-12 months.

I’m honestly completely baffled by your take on this, and have given you a longer response than your abomination of a post merited. I am not sold on whether Ineos will be god owners or not, it’s far too early to tell, but I do like what I see so far; especially in the context of what preceded them. In time they will be judged, but only when there is enough time and data to do so. Short of an oil rich state buying us and writing a blank cheque for the debt and a new stadium, I am not sure what more you could have wanted in the first three months of their ownership.

You are one of my favourite posters on here.

 

[sepulturite]

This is what I was saying yesterday and got shouted at for it, I never thought this INEOS deal was right for the club from the start and so far they have proved me right by failing to diver and costing us any chance we had of Champions League football by not being able to do something as simple as sacking a failing manager.

Shiekh Jassim would have had his team in place by now, the would have been cleared or at least be in the process of being paid off, and overall the club would be in a better position.

Ah I had a feeling from your shite talk earlier in the thread that your a Qatar fanboy, nice to see I was right.

 

[wolvored]

It was the Wanderers game when they just ran through the middle for me that the doubt started. If we play like that first game of the season when no one is 'tired', then what hope is there?

His transfers as well. This summer gone buying Mount for 55 mill and never starting him. I know hes missed a lot through injury, but surely Bruno can be rested for a game or two. Hojlund, paying 72 mill for a youngster that hasnt set anywhere alight for goalscoring to be our main striker was wrong as well. Ideally he should have been a 40 mill max signing to supplement the main striker. Onana he gets a pass buying, as he looked good at Inter, but at his worst surely Bayindir should have had a chance.

His after game analysis. Apparently we dominate virtually every game. Even when we get heavily beaten. He reckons we have a style of play and everyone can or should see it. I can't loads can't even many ex players.

Saying that a lot of our players are terrible as well. Rashford Bruno Casemiro (Utd version) the supposedly stars wouldn't get a start at any team above us.

I think if we lose to Coventry that will be when JR pulls the trigger on him, and even if we make the final, there is no way we beat City. We would have to hope Chelsea can do them, for Utd to have a chance of the cup.

 

[sepulturite]

Get that Sheikh talk outta here

Yeh we really need a Sheikh up in this thread