Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[RedDevil@84]

Trying to defend the god awful UCL campaign is just too much now. Galatasaray hadn't won away in the UCL proper since 2012! They're a shite team in European competition standards and were exposed as such in the Europa League where they got absolutely hammered by Sparta Prague.

They're ranked 53rd in the coefficient and Copenhagen are 44th.

Blaming the CL ouster to individual mistakes is not hyperbole, at least this time around. We played decent enough to get out of that group until individuals in the team decided feck that. Its a rare thing to happen, but it is true.
We fecked our PL campaign however. And that is something ETH cannot escape from.

 

[Ali Dia]

We need 2 or 3 seasons of signing the very best players 23 and under we can find. There will be deals galore on Bosman for slightly older squad players like Tosin when you have the wage capability utd do (while keeping it sensible hopefully)

It’s really not rocket science to develop a hungry competitive team but doing anything with the glazers involved is having one hand tied behind your back. They set a rotten tone by dithering on everything and hoarding crap unhappy players. INEOS will be more ruthless I’m sure of it

 

[Roboc7]

If it’s by design why would he change it? If he is happy to allow teams to take distant pot shots then why would he do anything about it. I also don’t understand why he would want to face so many shots in a game, especially when we aren’t controlling games or even dominating the ball. It’s definitely a strange system given the players available to him.

Because it doesn’t work, that’s why he should change it. This is the point though he looks bad either way, if he wants to keep allowing teams shots or he can’t stop it neither scenario does him any favours.

It’s a fair point about the back 4 but again if you’ve got a weakened back 4 and your solution is to leave them exposed week in week out it then you can’t really complain.

This is where he has shot himself in the foot and done such a poor job. If we looked like a well coached, well organised, disciplined team trying to play the right way or he was at least showing ability to adapt he’d have some case for keeping his job when you factor in all the issues. As it is he has made us look so disorganised and allowed us to face attempt after attempt that quite rightly he is now under huge scrutiny and lost a lot of sympathy.

 

[Woziak]

1. 27 different back 4 lineups - how can you possibly have patterns or consistency?
2. We’re playing without a LB, when we all know last season at our best our outlet was Martinez and Shaw - down the left.
3. A new goalkeeper, who our ever changing defence are unsure of. Sometimes I swear they are playing deeper than they should to protect Onana, Whilst our forwards and mids push up, leaving the huge gaps in the middle we are seeing.
4. Casemiro isn’t the same player he was last season for whatever reason. He isn’t in the right spaces to break up attacks, and can get back fast enough to help out.
5. We have no Fred tearing about fighting fires. He was very good at this and we have missed it this year. Bruno is trying, but he doesn’t have Fred’s tenacity and this is also pulling him out of position.
6. McT is playing further forward. Kobbie likes to/is instructed to push up. We are effectively playing without a 6/DM.
7. The spine of our team is kids. On Saturday right up the middle you had Kambwala, Mainoo, Hojlund. They are going to make mistakes, it’s just part of their learning curve.
8. The players who aren’t injured are clearly knackered. We are petering out like we did last season.
   
   I think that makes sense of the situation, but I’m not sure how you combat those issues in the situation we find ourselves currently. This squad is what it is - we are a developing team and key pieces need replacing. There is no easy fix or quick tactical change that could make a drastic improvement.

A brilliant post and I agree with 90% of this however players deemed not worthy, Dean Henderson, Taith Chong, James Garner, Antony Elanga, T Mengdi , Andrea’s Pereira have all thrived away from United having previously not deemed good enough.

The club recouped less than £55m for those 6 players.

Henderson always was a confident lad but he helped us derail Liverpools title attempt, the others this season! Yet he was sold for £15m.

All 6 sold for peanuts, all considered not good enough for the PL, collectively they’ve played 160 appearances this season in PL between 6 of them and the attacking players 90 appearances and 14 goals and 17 assists so 31 GA in 90 appearances, 1 in 3, right now James Garner, Elanga and Pereira on current form walk into this United side.

How on earth was £9m loan deal for S Amrabat considered an upgrade on a midfield dynamo like James Garner who just won the Euros with the U21’s.

These are the questions Ashworth will demand answers to, what makes it worse is the amount we received for Garner £12.6m rising to £15m? As for Antony Elanga, if we were trying to buy him now, we’d be quoted £40-50m. I agree with your reasons for failure but the Coach agreed these transfers, like he agreed Fred without adequate replacements, it shows he never truly go a grip of the intensity of the PL.

 

[crossy1686]

Hypothetically

if ETH was given another year and played the same tactic but added all the players he thinks he needs in all the positions he thinks he needs cover in

and the result is still huge holes in midfield, players looking like they don’t know each other, and continuing injuries during training..

would those backing him now change their minds or do they need another year?

Some will always back the manager regardless of the evidence they have in front of them. It will always be the players that are at fault because they can’t do what the manager wants them to.

There’s two issues with this United team. The first one is that we have issues by design, as in Ten Hags tactics. The way he sets the team up means we over commit the entire midfield so when we lose possession in build up play we’re massively exposed, hence the shots against us being so high. This will never change. It might be minimised but it will never go away.

The second issue is the players cannot do what he wants them to do and we need better players. However, I’m not convinced that even if we had some of the best players in the world in key positions we still wouldn’t get undone against the big teams because see point 1.

We will never be in a position where we have the best players in the world across the pitch so his tactics are redundant unless he’s in a shite league where his players are light years ahead the rest of the league.

 

[peridigm]

Hypothetically

if ETH was given another year and played the same tactic but added all the players he thinks he needs in all the positions he thinks he needs cover in

and the result is still huge holes in midfield, players looking like they don’t know each other, and continuing injuries during training..

would those backing him now change their minds or do they need another year?

They would come up with some other excuse on why it hasn't worked out.

 

[Withnail]

Wow, hang on. Weghorst and 'won over' in one sentence. Technically worst player since Bebe, played ahead of Elanga. Absolute farce of a seining, no goal threat, played at one point as a target midfielder but couldn't even win headers. Agree with much of the rest of the post.

Where does this myth come from that Weghorst and Elanga played the same position?

It's also not worth worrying about. Elanga isn't very good and certainly not good enough for United.

 

[afrocentricity]

I think we scrape through the group if we had a DDG in goal. Onana was adjusting to Utd/England/PL and his rough start cost us dearly.

That was a bad decision imo... Phase Onana in and phase DeGea out over the course of a season. Less pressure for Onana and backup when needed.... and DDG gets to leave properly not the undignified way that he ended up leaving.

 

[izak]

It was the Wanderers game when they just ran through the middle for me that the doubt started. If we play like that first game of the season when no one is 'tired', then what hope is there?

His transfers as well. This summer gone buying Mount for 55 mill and never starting him. I know hes missed a lot through injury, but surely Bruno can be rested for a game or two. Hojlund, paying 72 mill for a youngster that hasnt set anywhere alight for goalscoring to be our main striker was wrong as well. Ideally he should have been a 40 mill max signing to supplement the main striker. Onana he gets a pass buying, as he looked good at Inter, but at his worst surely Bayindir should have had a chance.

His after game analysis. Apparently we dominate virtually every game. Even when we get heavily beaten. He reckons we have a style of play and everyone can or should see it. I can't loads can't even many ex players.

Saying that a lot of our players are terrible as well. Rashford Bruno Casemiro (Utd version) the supposedly stars wouldn't get a start at any team above us.

I think if we lose to Coventry that will be when JR pulls the trigger on him, and even if we make the final, there is no way we beat City. We would have to hope Chelsea can do them, for Utd to have a chance of the cup.

Reading this makes me sad, because you're saying exactly how I feel, it's so sad that he isn't good a enough for our level.

 

[Cloudface]

The core of last year's first team has been decimated and the replacements aren't really up to it:

Varane: Injured every other game and old
Martinez: Out for the season
Shaw: Out most of the season
Casemiro: Injured for months and now geriatric
Eriksen: Injured for months and can't run

Maguire: Not good enough, got injured
Lindelof: Not good enough, also injured
Evans: Not bad, but old and mostly injured
Malacia: Out for the season
Mainoo: Injured for first half of the season
Mount: Injured for most of the season
Amrabat: Can't run, then got injured
McTominay: Can only play in straight lines

It's been a shitshow even without considering the paucity in attack:

Sancho kicking off
Anthony allegedly fighting all his girlfriends
Rashford deciding to have a rest year
Hoijlund young and learning and injured
Martial injured
Greenwood lurking around like a bad smell at the start of the season

It's been an unusual year and I have some sympathy for him. But he is partly responsible for this so if he gets ousted he can't have too many complaints. It's going to take a while to sort out some of this mess though.

 

[Withnail]

A brilliant post and I agree with 90% of this however players deemed not worthy, Dean Henderson, Taith Chong, James Garner, Antony Elanga, T Mengdi , Andrea’s Pereira have all thrived away from United having previously not deemed good enough.

The club recouped less than £55m for those 6 players.

Henderson always was a confident lad but he helped us derail Liverpools title attempt, the others this season! Yet he was sold for £15m.

All 6 sold for peanuts, all considered not good enough for the PL, collectively they’ve played 160 appearances this season in PL between 6 of them and the attacking players 90 appearances and 14 goals and 17 assists so 31 GA in 90 appearances, 1 in 3, right now James Garner, Elanga and Pereira on current form walk into this United side.

How on earth was £9m loan deal for S Amrabat considered an upgrade on a midfield dynamo like James Garner who just won the Euros with the U21’s.

These are the questions Ashworth will demand answers to, what makes it worse is the amount we received for Garner £12.6m rising to £15m? As for Antony Elanga, if we were trying to buy him now, we’d be quoted £40-50m. I agree with your reasons for failure but the Coach agreed these transfers, like he agreed Fred without adequate replacements, it shows he never truly go a grip of the intensity of the PL.

To be fair those players were deemed to be not good enough for and/or not have what it takes to make it at United. Many players have left and gone on to do well at mid-table clubs and that list are no different. I doubt you'll ever see any of them linked with an elite club.

For example, Pereira's done well at Fulham but let's not pretend he wasn't given far too many chances at United and repeatedly failed to deliver. We hung on to him far too long and to me it looks like we've learned from that.

 

[pocco]

The core of last year's first team has been decimated and the replacements aren't really up to it:

Varane: Injured every other game and old
Martinez: Out for the season
Shaw: Out most of the season
Casemiro: Injured for months and now geriatric
Eriksen: Injured for months and can't run

Maguire: Not good enough, got injured
Lindelof: Not good enough, also injured
Evans: Not bad, but old and mostly injured
Malacia: Out for the season
Mainoo: Injured for first half of the season
Mount: Injured for most of the season
Amrabat: Can't run, then got injured
McTominay: Can only play in straight lines

It's been a shitshow even without considering the paucity in attack:

Sancho kicking off
Anthony allegedly fighting all his girlfriends
Rashford deciding to have a rest year
Hoijlund young and learning and injured
Martial injured
Greenwood lurking around like a bad smell at the start of the season

It's been an unusual year and I have some sympathy for him. But he is partly responsible for this so if he gets ousted he can't have too many complaints. It's going to take a while to sort out some of this mess though.

He's responsible in part for practically every one of those issues, apart from Martial being injured. Though it was risky relying on him and a youngster, who we signed with an injury, to lead our attack.

 

[Glorio]

You’ve had an absolute ‘mare here with these posts. I understand emotions are running high, but a bit of common sense wouldn’t go amiss.

Firstly, we’ve heard more from SJR in the last three months, than we’ve heard from the Glazers in 19 years of ownership. Secondly, we’ve appointed Berrada already, who starts at the end of the season, and we are going to have Wilcox and Ashworth once compensation is sorted. Newcastle playing silly buggers only makes them look daft, not us. All the appointments are “best in class” and have been widely lauded in the media and across the fan base. Your exception noted.

Thirdly, SJR has already paid off 120m of our revolving credit facility, which while not touching the acquisition debt, just highlights that your claim about no movement on debt is patently false.

Fourthly, the idea that any off the field restructuring during the season will have any effect on fortunes on the pitch in the near term, is about as naive an expectation as I can imagine. The fact that the new minority owners have already let go the DoF, and CEO, as well as appointed a new - highly coveted - CEO and are closing on deals for a much heralded DoF and Technical Director - not to mention the new stadium task force in conjunction with the government and City of Manchester - is no shortage of proactive achievement in a very short space of time. In fact, one can say that this is the most focused and decisive United have been off the field in a very, very long time.

When talking about the debt, and the cost of a new stadium, it’s best just to admit that you know nothing about what the finance plans are. Because that’s what you know….nothing. None of us know what SJR plans to do about it or how a new stadium will be financed; but suffice to say it won’t be a case of finding a couple of billion down the back of the couch and paying off the debt as soon as he arrives. Least of all, to meet your preposterous expectations. What we do know is that we’ve had more information, more actual movement, and more communication from Ineos about revamping or replacing the stadium, then we’ve ever gotten from the Glazers. Again, in 3 months versus 19 years.

For a long time at United football decisions have not been made by football people. It’s been made very clear that this is going to change moving forwards, hence us going after the best football operations people we can identify. With that in mind, the decision on sacking the coach and who to replace him with, will most likely be made in concert with those key people. Not by the owner alone, and not without considerable forethought going in to what the long term vision is. I can only surmise from the limited intelligible content in your outrage, that you expect SJR to be vocal in the media about how bad results are and how low standards and performance are. Is that something you really want in a new owner? Lambasting the coach and players in public? He’s already made it clear that current standards and performance are well below what is acceptable at United and that his goal is to put us back on top; now is the time to let his actions do the speaking; not throwing a public fit. And in those terms, with his removal of Arnold and Murtough, and impending appointments of Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth, he is doing exactly that. Exactly what I would want to see from a serious owner, not talk or limb thrashing in the media.

SJR, I feel, has communicated very clearly that there is a strong strategic vision for United. A vision that is going to be driven by the results of the ongoing structural review, and the inputs of key football people. There won’t be any short term, knee jerk thinking; because that’s the last thing the club needs at this point, and no way to actually put the club back at the top. We’ve been told that the strategy is to identify the playing style, and appoint the best coach we can get to implement it; with an overarching structure controlling and evaluating recruitment, performance management, youth development etc., that remains constant despite coaching changes. That doesn’t happen overnight, but nevertheless appears to be happening very quickly.

It’s honestly hard to know whether to take your posts seriously or not. Or if you are just trolling. If those are your real thoughts, then I can only conclude that you are not a serious person, and/or don’t understand even basic organisational principles like strategic intent, let alone more complex facets like financial and managerial accounting, change management, strategic and structural analysis, operational excellence, resource allocation etc etc.

To save yourself a lot of heartache and headache, please internalise the reality that the success of an owner driven organisational change project should be measured in years, not weeks or months. Even by appointing a new coach, whether or not that can be deemed a success or failure, is likely to take at least 6-12 months.

I’m honestly completely baffled by your take on this, and have given you a longer response than your abomination of a post merited. I am not sold on whether Ineos will be god owners or not, it’s far too early to tell, but I do like what I see so far; especially in the context of what preceded them. In time they will be judged, but only when there is enough time and data to do so. Short of an oil rich state buying us and writing a blank cheque for the debt and a new stadium, I am not sure what more you could have wanted in the first three months of their ownership.

Really appreciate the amount of patience you put into this - I have nothing against the fellow you're responding to, but this is a great post.

Q though - is the bolded part true? I've not seen that said officially anywhere. If it has, that would be brilliant as it's what the club has been crying for

 

[Licha-Vidic]

This place has turned into a toxic marketplace. Pointing of fingers and placing blame on others.

Now I can see even some fans are blaming Ratcliffe wonders will never end.
People we need to agree we have a substandard coach. It's the easiest explanation. Every thing else is a very complicated explanation.

 

[wolvored]

Really appreciate the amount of patience you put into this - I have nothing against the fellow you're responding to, but this is a great post.

Q though - is the bolded part true? I've not seen that said officially anywhere. If it has, that would be brilliant as it's what the club has been crying for

Maybe not in those words, but there has been talk of 'best in class' over everything. Now what they think is best in class and what you and others think may be different, Southgate, for example, keeps being mentioned by the media, but only time will tell. The Ashworth Berrada and Wilcox appointments is certainly a big step in the right direction, compared to what we had.

 

[Cloudface]

He's responsible in part for practically every one of those issues, apart from Martial being injured. Though it was risky relying on him and a youngster, who we signed with an injury, to lead our attack.

I would agree with Anthony, Ten Hag should have had a better read on him and he is his mistake regardless of how much involvement he had in the fee.

The others not so much, but they've been discussed to death. In retrospect I think Weghorst could have done a job this year considering Hoijlund and Martial's respective situations, and that's a sad state of affairs.

 

[pogbasformerbarber]

I don't think I've ever had a tougher time understanding my feelings on one of our managers...

I thought he was close to brilliant last year given a very tough set of circumstances. I thought we over performed.

This year...I can't really put my finger on it. Our effort has really been the biggest issue IMHO. Tactics haven't been great, but in the (sadly rare) instances when we put in our maximum effort we seem to be a good squad. So it's not really just a tactics issue. So what to make of it? Is that ETH's fault? Is it a team issue? Is it a player issue? Could we swap out a few bad apples in the locker room and improve?

I like him, I still have some faith in him. I wouldn't be too upset if we replace him though. I'm worried about the alternative, and having yet another year of transition as well.

As I said...I'm just totally confused as to my feelings here, although I have to admit it's not a positive to feel this unemotional.

 

[simonhch]

Now now, we don't need any of this common sense round ere!
Brilliant post.

Bravo Sir.

Superb post.

This post deserves another bump. Brilliant analysis and bang on.

You are one of my favourite posters on here.

Thanks chaps. Much obliged.

Really appreciate the amount of patience you put into this - I have nothing against the fellow you're responding to, but this is a great post.

Q though - is the bolded part true? I've not seen that said officially anywhere. If it has, that would be brilliant as it's what the club has been crying for

Yes, it is a quote attributable to one of the incoming execs., can't remember who right this second, but when I am done with work I'll find it and post it.

 

[Roboc7]

I don't think I've ever had a tougher time understanding my feelings on one of our managers...

I thought he was close to brilliant last year given a very tough set of circumstances. I thought we over performed.

This year...I can't really put my finger on it. Our effort has really been the biggest issue IMHO. Tactics haven't been great, but in the (sadly rare) instances when we put in our maximum effort we seem to be a good squad. So it's not really just a tactics issue. So what to make of it? Is that ETH's fault? Is it a team issue? Is it a player issue? Could we swap out a few bad apples in the locker room and improve?

I like him, I still have some faith in him. I wouldn't be too upset if we replace him though. I'm worried about the alternative, and having yet another year of transition as well.

As I said...I'm just totally confused as to my feelings here, although I have to admit it's not a positive to feel this unemotional.

We’ve got a few years of transition ahead of us with or without ETH, there is no quick fix, he pretty much has to start from scratch all over again next season but with the added pressure of being a poor run of results from the sack and possibly without full support of all of the players.

It would be a huge gamble from INEOS and surely the risk outweighs any potential reward, I find it hard to believe he can turn this round and the worst case scenario is we right off another season trying to find out whether or not that is true.

 

[Woziak]

We need 2 or 3 seasons of signing the very best players 23 and under we can find. There will be deals galore on Bosman for slightly older squad players like Tosin when you have the wage capability utd do (while keeping it sensible hopefully)

It’s really not rocket science to develop a hungry competitive team but doing anything with the glazers involved is having one hand tied behind your back. They set a rotten tone by dithering on everything and hoarding crap unhappy players. INEOS will be more ruthless I’m sure of it

We could effectively sign 3 or 4 free signings this season but their wages still need to added to yearly accounts budget.

So assuming you let obvious players leave like ; R Varane(350k), J Evans(60k), C Eriksen(8M/180k), DVB(7m/120k),
A Martial(250k)

Those contracts will not be renewed, the others have 1 year and the club would probably accept combined £10m for both to leave the club and save Wages. The £940k per week wages saved increase the Transfer and Wage budget to £45m and the £10m transfer amortised probably adds another £2m to give a combined budget of £50m set aside for Free transfers yearly.

Consider the Following options on bosman free transfers this summer.

Defence;

Mario Hemoso , Age 28, 6’2 looking for 4/5 year on £100k per week,
Lloyd Kelly, Age 25, 6’3, PL proven on 30k per week currently looking for a 5 year contract on £75k per week
Tosin Adarbioyo, Age 26, 6’5 PL proven on 40k per week looking for 5 year contract on £75-80k per week

Midfield;

Adrien Rabiot, Age 29, 6’3 on 180k per week looking for 3/4 year contract on £250-280k per week
Ross Barkley , Age 30, 6’2 on 30k per week looking for 2/3 year contract on £75-80k per week
Wilfred N’Didi, Age 27, 6’1 on £100k per week, looking for 4/5 year contract on 120/130k per week
Piotr Zielinski, Age 29, 6’0 on 80k per week looking for 3/4 year contract on 100/120k per week
Guido Rodriguez, Age 30, 6’2 on 40k per week looking for 3/4 contract on 80k per week.
Josh Brownhill, Age 26, 5’10 PL Proven looking for 60/70k per week on a 5 year contract

Strikers ;
Not much on a free but
Rafa Silva, Age 30, 5’7 on 50k per week looking for 2/3 contract on £100k per week
Kelechi Iheanacho , Age 27 on 80k per week looking for a 4/5 year contract on 100k per week, poor season but useful maybe as a squad member and has PL
Experience.

Looking through this list, please also be aware that signing on and Agent fees are also to be paid what’s the best 3 or 4 we could sign from this list?

My Picks wouid be ; Tosin Adarbioyo, Wilfred N’Didi and Adrien Rabiot or Ross Barkley If we can’t get Rabiot.

It’s important to remember when United signed Christian Eriksen we agreed a £12m signing on fee which is added to his £30m contract and therefore Eriksen true cost to the club was £4m per year to be paid as a signing on fee plus £10m in wages, so £14m per year on the books, if we sell him this year we still have to pay the last year of his signing on fee but obviously save £10m on wages and the transfer fee would pay some of the signing on fee.

You can assume that Rabiot would be a huge investment even on a free, a 3+1 contract at £250k per week and £25m signing on fee would cost the club £21-22m per year on the books, someone like Ross on a similar 2+1 contract at £80k per week and £8m signing on fee would cost the club £8m per year which if he continues his Luton form is a no brainer, the same with Tosin, he probably would cost £8m signing on and £4m per year on a 5 year contract means £5.6m per year on the accounts and Wilfred N’Didi on a 5 year makes an awful lot of sense at 27, £10m signing on fee and £120k per week wages means £8m addition to the clubs accounts. Conclusion Even Rabiot, Barkley, N’Didi and Tosin, yes all 4 would cost £43m on the books and there is still approximately £7m or 140k per week wages to add to the transfer kitty.

I’m sure Ashworth indirectly and the team left in charge of transfers are all over this and expect to see 1 maybe 2 early free transfers. I’d like to know what players you guys think we should sign from the bosman list?

 

[soapythecat]

Ah I had a feeling from your shite talk earlier in the thread that your a Qatar fanboy, nice to see I was right.

Lads an absolute numpty. Not surprised he’s a Qatar flag waver. Kids eh!

 

[Plant0x84]

A brilliant post and I agree with 90% of this however players deemed not worthy, Dean Henderson, Taith Chong, James Garner, Antony Elanga, T Mengdi , Andrea’s Pereira have all thrived away from United having previously not deemed good enough.

The club recouped less than £55m for those 6 players.

Henderson always was a confident lad but he helped us derail Liverpools title attempt, the others this season! Yet he was sold for £15m.

All 6 sold for peanuts, all considered not good enough for the PL, collectively they’ve played 160 appearances this season in PL between 6 of them and the attacking players 90 appearances and 14 goals and 17 assists so 31 GA in 90 appearances, 1 in 3, right now James Garner, Elanga and Pereira on current form walk into this United side.

How on earth was £9m loan deal for S Amrabat considered an upgrade on a midfield dynamo like James Garner who just won the Euros with the U21’s.

These are the questions Ashworth will demand answers to, what makes it worse is the amount we received for Garner £12.6m rising to £15m? As for Antony Elanga, if we were trying to buy him now, we’d be quoted £40-50m. I agree with your reasons for failure but the Coach agreed these transfers, like he agreed Fred without adequate replacements, it shows he never truly go a grip of the intensity of the PL.

Yeah, it did feel like the outgoings were the wrong ones lay summer. I would have kept Fred, Elanga and Garner I think. I was surprised particularly surprised that James was allowed to leave when he showed so much promise.

As per the last 11years out recruitment and selling has been reactionary and really bad but I’d personally still pin this on the club and those sanctioning deals more than the manager, especially when he is having to take more control because of the lack of competence in the club.

 

[Woziak]

To be fair those players were deemed to be not good enough for and/or not have what it takes to make it at United. Many players have left and gone on to do well at mid-table clubs and that list are no different. I doubt you'll ever see any of them linked with an elite club.

For example, Pereira's done well at Fulham but let's not pretend he wasn't given far too many chances at United and repeatedly failed to deliver. We hung on to him far too long and to me it looks like we've learned from that.

My point is we should have got £120m+ for those players ?

 

[sepulturite]

Lads an absolute numpty. Not surprised he’s a Qatar flag waver. Kids eh!

Yep I agree!

 

[Plant0x84]

This place has turned into a toxic marketplace. Pointing of fingers and placing blame on others.

Now I can see even some fans are blaming Ratcliffe wonders will never end.
People we need to agree we have a substandard coach. It's the easiest explanation. Every thing else is a very complicated explanation.

That’s exactly what this is though. It’s very complicated and will take years to unravel. There is no quick fix, there is only doing things properly and if that takes time so be it.
Start over time and time again only knots up the situation more!

 

[Plant0x84]

Lads an absolute numpty. Not surprised he’s a Qatar flag waver. Kids eh!

Only joined in Feb last year. The mind boggles as to how he got promoted so quickly with the crap he spouts.

 

[Dve]

I have finally come to the conclusion that Ten Hag must be sacked. And not at the end of the season, but immediately. This is not me being reactionary, but simply because we can still make top 5 and secure CL football next season (gasp!). But the only way this can happen, is with help of you a new-manager-bounch.

Then everyone, of course, will say I've lost my mind suggesting we can still make top 5, but the fact is that after the next three matches, we could easily find ourself only one point behind Tottenham - given that we win our three next matches, which should be very much doable with a new manager and some injection of new energy into the squad.

Our next 3 PL matches:

Sheffield U (home)
Burnley (home)
Crystal P. (away)

Tottenham's next 3 matches:

Arsenal (home)
Chelsea (away)
Liverpool (away)

That's potentially 9 points gained, while we currently are 10 points behind Spurs. So, we can still make it, but not with Ten Hag, as there is nothing that suggest he is the man to turn it around. But maybe with a new manager, as Spurs still have to play Man.City before the season ends.

 

[Rista]

Hypothetically

if ETH was given another year and played the same tactic but added all the players he thinks he needs in all the positions he thinks he needs cover in

and the result is still huge holes in midfield, players looking like they don’t know each other, and continuing injuries during training..

would those backing him now change their minds or do they need another year?

It never ends, goalposts are moving constantly. It used to be "let's give him until november", then december, then it's the injuries, then the structure, then bad luck. Now it's "he had a good year and a bad year so we don't know which is the real ETH!".

He stays and we're still terrible and you'll be hearing about how the new stucture needs time to bed in. Or how they didn't buy him all the players that he needed so this modern, progressive master plan of his still can't work.

 

[Withnail]

My point is we should have got £120m+ for those players ?

You can argue we could have gotten more, but that's not on the manager. It's been an issue for years at United that we rarely get a good deal when selling.

I'd disagree with the last point too. I wouldn't have any of those three back. The evidence on Pereira's side is especially overwhelming, he'd repeatedly do well on loan to a lesser side and tear it up in pre-season, only to be incapable of reproducing that kind of form when in our first team.

 

[doomy20]

I have finally come to the conclusion that Ten Hag must be sacked. And not at the end of the season, but immediately. This is not me being reactionary, but simply because we can still make top 5 and secure CL football next season (gasp!). But the only way this can happen, is with help of you a new-manager-bounch.

Then everyone, of course, will say I've lost my mind suggesting we can still make top 5, but the fact is that after the next three matches, we could easily find ourself only one point behind Tottenham - given that we win our three next matches, which should be very much doable with a new manager and some injection of new energy into the squad.

Our next 3 PL matches:

Sheffield U (home)
Burnley (home)
Crystal P. (away)

Tottenham's next 3 matches:

Arsenal (home)
Chelsea (away)
Liverpool (away)

That's potentially 9 points gained, while we currently are 10 points behind Spurs. So, we can still make it, but not with Ten Hag, as there is nothing that suggest he is the man to turn it around. But maybe with a new manager, as Spurs still have to play Man.City before the season ends.

We won’t win Palace away. Plus winning or losing the big games at the end isn’t decided by Eric being here or not, still the same players+injuries.

 

[Longshanks]

Blaming the CL ouster to individual mistakes is not hyperbole, at least this time around. We played decent enough to get out of that group until individuals in the team decided feck that. Its a rare thing to happen, but it is true.
We fecked our PL campaign however. And that is something ETH cannot escape from.

No, we didn't thrown away 2x 2 goal leads at galatassary 1x2 goal lead and a 1 goal at Copenhagen and then twice a 1 goal lead at home to gala on the back of 'individual mistakes'. It's on the back of a diabolical tactical approach. Bear in mind the only win we got was thanks to a Harry Maguire header and a last minute penalty save from Onana. It was a win we barely deserved.

Also the performance or complete lack of it at home to Bayern in a must win game against a Bayern team playing in a dead rubber when they barely got out of first gear. We never layed glove on them, never looked like laying a glove on them. We had 5 shots all game at home in a must win game.

Really the champions league campaign showed everyone Ten hags level. And that is along way from elite.

It was after the Bayern game which come of the back of the Bournemouth game that I had made my mind up about him. Nothing has changed since despite the extra time to train this group and a return of some key players from injury.

There will be more individual mistakes aswell thanks to the insane tactics because of how exposed our back line and GK is thanks to 'Hag Ball'.

 

[Plant0x84]

I have finally come to the conclusion that Ten Hag must be sacked. And not at the end of the season, but immediately. Please, tell us more… This is not me being reactionary, Yes it is! but simply because we can still make top 5 and secure CL football next season (gasp!). No, we can’t! But the only way this can happen, is with help of you a new-manager-bounch. You’ve lost me.
Then everyone, of course, will say I've lost my mind suggesting we can still make top 5,you might have done! but the fact is that after the next three matches, we could easily find ourself only one point behind Tottenham - unlikely given that we win our three next matches, sadly that’s not a given anymore which should be very much doable with a new manager and some injection of new energy into the squad. The word ‘should’ doing a lot of lifting there.

Our next 3 PL matches:

Sheffield U (home)
Burnley (home)
Crystal P. (away)

Tottenham's next 3 matches:

Arsenal (home)
Chelsea (away)
Liverpool (away)

That's potentially 9 points gained, while we currently are 10 points behind Spurs. So, we can still make it, but not with Ten Hag, as there is nothing that suggest he is the man to turn it around. But maybe with a new manager, as Spurs still have to play Man.City before the season ends.

I’m lease see my comment in red. I admire your optimism my friend, and I’d love to agree with you- but I really think we are now fighting for EL qualification even, not CL. We have fallen into the chasing pack. We are looking down now, not upwards .

 

[stevoc]

Yeah, it did feel like the outgoings were the wrong ones lay summer. I would have kept Fred, Elanga and Garner I think. I was surprised particularly surprised that James was allowed to leave when he showed so much promise.

As per the last 11years out recruitment and selling has been reactionary and really bad but I’d personally still pin this on the club and those sanctioning deals more than the manager, especially when he is having to take more control because of the lack of competence in the club.

Didn't Garner leave in 2022?

 

[Dve]

We won’t win Palace away. Plus winning or losing the big games at the end isn’t decided by Eric being here or not, still the same players+injuries.

Injuries, yes, but last game Ten Hag were 2 players short of starting with his seemingly preferred 11. We've seen so many times in football that a change of manager can do hell lot of good - at least in the short run - and a short run is all we've got left of the season anyway. And to categorically say that "we won't win Palace away" is just silly.

 

[Zed 101]

We won’t win Palace away. Plus winning or losing the big games at the end isn’t decided by Eric being here or not, still the same players+injuries.

What is the point of a manager then?

 

[Marcus]

He has the charisma and personality of a turnip. When you can't connect with you team or supporters in a manner which engenders trust and confidence, then you live by the sword of performance or die by it. The performance of the team has been crap and EtH does not seem to have any emotional ties with the fans which would let us sympathise and give him more chances. He is gone.

 

[doomy20]

What is the point of a manager then?

My point is just that run is, apart from maybe 1-2 games, is winnable and should be won, no matter which manager

 

[Red in STL]

Didn't Garner leave in 2022?

Yes he did, TBH I never understood the rationale for selling him, he made 2 promising appearances, went to loan to Watford and Forest and then was sold, from what I recall he did OK at Forest and never got another chance at United

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Didn't Garner leave in 2022?

Correct. Sold him in ETH's first summer.

 

[RedRover]

1. 27 different back 4 lineups - how can you possibly have patterns or consistency?
2. We’re playing without a LB, when we all know last season at our best our outlet was Martinez and Shaw - down the left.
3. A new goalkeeper, who our ever changing defence are unsure of. Sometimes I swear they are playing deeper than they should to protect Onana, Whilst our forwards and mids push up, leaving the huge gaps in the middle we are seeing.
4. Casemiro isn’t the same player he was last season for whatever reason. He isn’t in the right spaces to break up attacks, and can get back fast enough to help out.
5. We have no Fred tearing about fighting fires. He was very good at this and we have missed it this year. Bruno is trying, but he doesn’t have Fred’s tenacity and this is also pulling him out of position.
6. McT is playing further forward. Kobbie likes to/is instructed to push up. We are effectively playing without a 6/DM.
7. The spine of our team is kids. On Saturday right up the middle you had Kambwala, Mainoo, Hojlund. They are going to make mistakes, it’s just part of their learning curve.
8. The players who aren’t injured are clearly knackered. We are petering out like we did last season.
   
   I think that makes sense of the situation, but I’m not sure how you combat those issues in the situation we find ourselves currently. This squad is what it is - we are a developing team and key pieces need replacing. There is no easy fix or quick tactical change that could make a drastic improvement.

If the unavailability of our better defenders is a problem, a sensible solution would be set us up in a much less open way to avoid exposing them. Ten Hag is doing exactly the opposite. That is his decision - nobody else's.

The squad is poor. Some of that is his fault because he asked for players he can't get the best out of or who simply aren't good enough. A comment of "well he shouldn't be allowed that kind of freedom", which we see a lot on here, is correct, but it isn't a defence which absolves him of total blame, any less so than it highlights a major failing in him totally misunderstanding what the PL is about or what he needs.

If the club were to accept that identifying talent isn't a skill that he has (which would be bizarre in itself if he's supposed be managing at an elite level) how does he convey to those who will then make those decisions what he needs? Surely any elite level manager has to be involved, to some degree, in identifying players for his own system?

He's been exposed this season. He's had bad luck, but he's his own worst enemy. Tactically naïve, stubborn, and with an increasing desperation to seem to want to prove himself right with this new "chaotic" way of playing, telling everyone that its fine to concede 20 plus shots a game week after week against middling opposition. Just because you do something new, doesn't make it clever or right.

You're right as well; the players are knackered. This system compounds that having them run all over the place chasing shadows.

On all the available evidence, unfortunately, he's just not good enough at the elite level. With a single year left on his contract, and in a summer where there's going to be significant turnover of playing staff it'd be madness to bring in 5 players to fit his system that a new manager next summer might not want. I personally think the decision has been made already.