Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Come on mate, we finished 3rd last year. We have more than enough talent to be finishing ahead of Villa and Spurs. Even with how shite we've been this season we weren't that far off them until our recent collapse over the last 4-6 weeks. A better manager, or at least one that isn't hell bent on playing a suicidal brand of nothingball would have this squad in 4th/5th right now.

3rd last year doesn't mean anything.

How does 3rd last year translate to competing for trophies next year or the year after or 3 or 4 years down the line?

Like it not, the vast majority of the players just aren't good enough, they weren't good enough last year and won't be good enough next year, or the year after.
 
Come on mate, we finished 3rd last year. We have more than enough talent to be finishing ahead of Villa and Spurs. Even with how shite we've been this season we weren't that far off them until our recent collapse over the last 4-6 weeks. A better manager, or at least one that isn't hell bent on playing a suicidal brand of nothingball would have this squad in 4th/5th right now.

It has been so bad that everything has felt like a disaster for years now, but we have actually finished in the top 3, 3 times in the last 4 years. I'm not saying the players are great, but their talent is ahead of these other teams like Spurs and Villa. It's revisionism to say Spurs are better, when they were a disaster pre-Ange and had just sold their best player without replacing him.
 
They don’t. Stevie G had the largely same squad in relegation zone and Conte had largely the same squad playing horrible football.
Thats not relevant to my statement though.

VdV Udogie Porto and Romero (bit of a random order apologies) is a better back 4.

Bentacur is better than most of our midfielders, and although Bissouma has had a torrid second half of the season he's still comfortably better than Casemiro this season. Maddison is about par with Bruno whilst Son is 2x better than anything we have. I prefer Garnacho over Kulu or Johnson, but it doesn't take away my general point that their starting XI is better.

Villa now have overlays with Diego Carlos, Pau Torres, Diaby, Tielemans etc. That have also helped Emery transcend the team.
 
I dont think we are that good. I don't rate Rashford, Maguire, Wan Bissaka. Casemiro is over the hill and garnacho shouldn't be playing as much as he has.

Tottenham and Villa both have a better XI I feel.

Maguire and Wan Bissaka aren't even first choice if everyone is fit. Rashford has scored 20-30 goals in 3 of the last 4 seasons, yes he's inconsistent. Garnacho wouldn't be playing every week if the clusterfeck that is our £160m right wing of Antony and Sancho didn't happen.

Spurs and Villa don't have better squads. They have better managers who are getting the best out of those squads this season. We have the opposite.

3rd last year doesn't mean anything.

How does 3rd last year translate to competing for trophies next year or the year after or 3 or 4 years down the line?

Like it not, the vast majority of the players just aren't good enough, they weren't good enough last year and won't be good enough next year, or the year after.

But weren't discussing winning trophies, we're talking about finishing in the top 4. Were we not?

You say this squad isn't good enough to finish above 5th to 9th. Yet it came 3rd 12 months ago.

It has been so bad that everything has felt like a disaster for years now, but we have actually finished in the top 3, 3 times in the last 4 years. I'm not saying the players are great, but their talent is ahead of these other teams like Spurs and Villa. It's revisionism to say Spurs are better, when they were a disaster pre-Ange and had just sold their best player without replacing him.

Agreed, no one would have picked Spurs to qualify for the CL this season after finishing 8th last year and then losing 60% of their goals in Kane.
 
Come on mate, we finished 3rd last year. We have more than enough talent to be finishing ahead of Villa and Spurs. Even with how shite we've been this season we weren't that far off them until our recent collapse over the last 4-6 weeks. A better manager, or at least one that isn't hell bent on playing a suicidal brand of nothingball would have this squad in 4th/5th right now.
Honestly, so much shit being posted just to avoid the elephant in the room...
 
I’m not blindly backing anything, just stating facts. If you don’t like it, keep scrolling. You don’t have to reply just to insult and belittle.
Hang on, I effectively mirrored the tone you took towards people that want ten Hag out. "make it make sense" = "bizarre".
 
Using this season as a sample size then extrapolating that out. It looks like it would take Ten Hag the best part of 5 years to get us playing anything like an effective playing style with some sort of structure, never mind a successful style.
But ten Hag was manager last season too and up to February we played some very good football and were pretty entertaining too at times. You can’t just pick and choose which bits to concentrate on, you have to take an overview.
 
Honestly, so much shit being posted just to avoid the elephant in the room...

Yeah while we don't have a title winning squad, the way our current manager asks them to play is making a lot of these players look much worse than they are this season.
 
I judge an elite manager by his ability to recognise a teams weaknesses and make instant changes to adjust in game and in season. Last year ETH showed these signs, we lost our first two games after he was given a baptism of fire and he went on a run with the players because he said the team lacked fitness, the team
Instantly improved and respected him.

He then started to show elite tactical skills by making the right substitutions to change or see out games. Even when he brought in Sabitzer and Weghorst on loan, fans initially not impressed were won over. Two domestic finals, one trophy and 3rd place in the PL with 75 points, 1 point more than when Ole came second.

That’s was last year, then it’s almost like a clone took over and did the complete opposite, that’s why we need to get rid of him, the next coach must be told that the club expects year on year improvement with set targets and the bare minimum, even in year one is CL qualification otherwise the sack, that’s how big clubs operate!

If the coach was at Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern and they did not win their domestic league , they would be instantly sacked, United should be no different!

ETH should have been sacked In December for coming bottom of a CL group, he’s had his second chance and enough games in the PL since then to make amends, so he has to be sacked because this clown will finish 7th, 8th or 9th and that’s why we should still do it this week after the Coventry game win or lose, Give Ruud the job on the interim, he’s free and won a cup final in Holland plus at least he’ll set up the team to score more goals in the last 6 or 7 games of the season.
I distinctly remember most fans complaining about his lack of incisive actions when it came to substitutions last year.

He pretty much played our strongest side in every fixture last year too.
His squad management has been lacking.
 
I’m not blindly backing anything, just stating facts. If you don’t like it, keep scrolling. You don’t have to reply just to insult and belittle.
Also, you aren't "just stating facts". There's absolutely nothing factual about the premise that ten Hag is developing a positive style of play. I'm not trying to be a dick, but surely you can see where the pushback comes from wrt. the idea that we're actually progressing in terms of identity and playstyle?
 
We looked a better team with a far better playing style last season. There's no development. We've gone backwards.
Agree, but you must consider the circumstances. (Injuries/new players/off field/sale etc…)
Erik’s had one good season and one bad season, so I’d give him next season as the decider. I really don’t think he has become terrible overnight.
 
Maguire and Wan Bissaka aren't even first choice if everyone is fit. Rashford has scored 20-30 goals in 3 of the last 4 seasons, yes he's inconsistent. Garnacho wouldn't be playing every week if the clusterfeck that is our £160m right wing of Antony and Sancho didn't happen.

Spurs and Villa don't have better squads. They have better managers who are getting the best out of those squads this season. We have the opposite.
This season they haven't though. I think this season we've had to rely on Maguire and Lindelof/AWB for starting players at CB and LB. Im not looking for whys here just pointing out the fact that the starting XI for us this season has generally been lesser than the teams above us.
 
Hang on, I effectively mirrored the tone you took towards people that want ten Hag out. "make it make sense" = "bizarre".
Nope. I contracted the playing styles under two manager, neither of which have been good enough for the Caf. I then pointed out the hypocrisy of coveting counterattacking football given my first statement. It literally doesn’t make sense.
Don’t be so defensive! You are allowed an opinion as am I.
 
But ten Hag was manager last season too and up to February we played some very good football and were pretty entertaining too at times. You can’t just pick and choose which bits to concentrate on, you have to take an overview.

Well have folk not been claiming that last season he was being much more pragmatic and made compromises on his preferred style? And that this season is the season he's tried to fully implement a new style of play?

And if we do look at both seasons together and try to plot out a trajectory, then we've actually gone backwards. Not just in results but performances and any semblance of a style or structure actually being implemented.

To be completely honest when you look at both seasons, there's a very good case to be made that our good football/results/form up until around January/February was nothing more than a new manager bounce.
 
Thats not relevant to my statement though.

VdV Udogie Porto and Romero (bit of a random order apologies) is a better back 4.

Bentacur is better than most of our midfielders, and although Bissouma has had a torrid second half of the season he's still comfortably better than Casemiro this season. Maddison is about par with Bruno whilst Son is 2x better than anything we have. I prefer Garnacho over Kulu or Johnson, but it doesn't take away my general point that their starting XI is better.

Villa now have overlays with Diego Carlos, Pau Torres, Diaby, Tielemans etc. That have also helped Emery transcend the team.
Just shows what a good coach can do, getting those players that looked lost last season (Porro, Romero) into a cohesive attacking unit.

Carlos, Diaby and Tielemans have hardly played. Emery has done wonders with the same group of players Slippy G had. @FootballHQ would you agree?
 
Also, you aren't "just stating facts". There's absolutely nothing factual about the premise that ten Hag is developing a positive style of play. I'm not trying to be a dick, but surely you can see where the pushback comes from wrt. the idea that we're actually progressing in terms of identity and playstyle?
See below.
Agree, but you must consider the circumstances. (Injuries/new players/off field/sale etc…)
Erik’s had one good season and one bad season, so I’d give him next season as the decider. I really don’t think he has become terrible overnight.
 
Just shows what a good coach can do, getting those players that looked lost last season (Porro, Romero) into a cohesive attacking unit.

Carlos, Diaby and Tielemans have hardly played. Emery has done wonders with the same group of players Slippy G had. @FootballHQ would you agree?
Park the coach, both teams have had very good players for their style (which relies on a high line and a cohesive press).

VdV is effectively a cheat code, and Udogie is very well balanced. Porro was starting to find his form since last season.

Villa similarly have a very good starting XI. Steven Gerrard being shite as a coach is not relevant to that observation.
 
You’ve had an absolute ‘mare here with these posts. I understand emotions are running high, but a bit of common sense wouldn’t go amiss.

Firstly, we’ve heard more from SJR in the last three months, than we’ve heard from the Glazers in 19 years of ownership. Secondly, we’ve appointed Berrada already, who starts at the end of the season, and we are going to have Wilcox and Ashworth once compensation is sorted. Newcastle playing silly buggers only makes them look daft, not us. All the appointments are “best in class” and have been widely lauded in the media and across the fan base. Your exception noted.

Thirdly, SJR has already paid off 120m of our revolving credit facility, which while not touching the acquisition debt, just highlights that your claim about no movement on debt is patently false.

Fourthly, the idea that any off the field restructuring during the season will have any effect on fortunes on the pitch in the near term, is about as naive an expectation as I can imagine. The fact that the new minority owners have already let go the DoF, and CEO, as well as appointed a new - highly coveted - CEO and are closing on deals for a much heralded DoF and Technical Director - not to mention the new stadium task force in conjunction with the government and City of Manchester - is no shortage of proactive achievement in a very short space of time. In fact, one can say that this is the most focused and decisive United have been off the field in a very, very long time.

When talking about the debt, and the cost of a new stadium, it’s best just to admit that you know nothing about what the finance plans are. Because that’s what you know….nothing. None of us know what SJR plans to do about it or how a new stadium will be financed; but suffice to say it won’t be a case of finding a couple of billion down the back of the couch and paying off the debt as soon as he arrives. Least of all, to meet your preposterous expectations. What we do know is that we’ve had more information, more actual movement, and more communication from Ineos about revamping or replacing the stadium, then we’ve ever gotten from the Glazers. Again, in 3 months versus 19 years.

For a long time at United football decisions have not been made by football people. It’s been made very clear that this is going to change moving forwards, hence us going after the best football operations people we can identify. With that in mind, the decision on sacking the coach and who to replace him with, will most likely be made in concert with those key people. Not by the owner alone, and not without considerable forethought going in to what the long term vision is. I can only surmise from the limited intelligible content in your outrage, that you expect SJR to be vocal in the media about how bad results are and how low standards and performance are. Is that something you really want in a new owner? Lambasting the coach and players in public? He’s already made it clear that current standards and performance are well below what is acceptable at United and that his goal is to put us back on top; now is the time to let his actions do the speaking; not throwing a public fit. And in those terms, with his removal of Arnold and Murtough, and impending appointments of Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth, he is doing exactly that. Exactly what I would want to see from a serious owner, not talk or limb thrashing in the media.

SJR, I feel, has communicated very clearly that there is a strong strategic vision for United. A vision that is going to be driven by the results of the ongoing structural review, and the inputs of key football people. There won’t be any short term, knee jerk thinking; because that’s the last thing the club needs at this point, and no way to actually put the club back at the top. We’ve been told that the strategy is to identify the playing style, and appoint the best coach we can get to implement it; with an overarching structure controlling and evaluating recruitment, performance management, youth development etc., that remains constant despite coaching changes. That doesn’t happen overnight, but nevertheless appears to be happening very quickly.

It’s honestly hard to know whether to take your posts seriously or not. Or if you are just trolling. If those are your real thoughts, then I can only conclude that you are not a serious person, and/or don’t understand even basic organisational principles like strategic intent, let alone more complex facets like financial and managerial accounting, change management, strategic and structural analysis, operational excellence, resource allocation etc etc.

To save yourself a lot of heartache and headache, please internalise the reality that the success of an owner driven organisational change project should be measured in years, not weeks or months. Even by appointing a new coach, whether or not that can be deemed a success or failure, is likely to take at least 6-12 months.

I’m honestly completely baffled by your take on this, and have given you a longer response than your abomination of a post merited. I am not sold on whether Ineos will be god owners or not, it’s far too early to tell, but I do like what I see so far; especially in the context of what preceded them. In time they will be judged, but only when there is enough time and data to do so. Short of an oil rich state buying us and writing a blank cheque for the debt and a new stadium, I am not sure what more you could have wanted in the first three months of their ownership.

Superb post.
 
Not gone yet?
Dissapointing.

They are probably waiting for the Champions League clause to kick in to make it official. This is the only explanation I can come up with. But he is 100% gone, even before June. I'm dead certain of that.

I just hope it's not Potter or Southgate that are coming in. :nervous:
 
They are probably waiting for the Champions League clause to kick in to make it official. This is the only explanation I can come up with. But he is 100% gone, even before June. I'm dead certain of that.

I just hope it's not Potter or Southgate that are coming in. :nervous:
Nagelsman
Motta
Potter

In that order for me, I dont mind Potter at all tbh.
 
This season they haven't though. I think this season we've had to rely on Maguire and Lindelof/AWB for starting players at CB and LB. Im not looking for whys here just pointing out the fact that the starting XI for us this season has generally been lesser than the teams above us.

Because of injuries obviously. Right so you're rating players very much in the here and now. I'm talking about where this squad could finish under a more structured style of play that suits these players.
 
Just shows what a good coach can do, getting those players that looked lost last season (Porro, Romero) into a cohesive attacking unit.

Carlos, Diaby and Tielemans have hardly played. Emery has done wonders with the same group of players Slippy G had. @FootballHQ would you agree?

Yep perfect manager for them as they all wanted to learn and improve compared to many of the squad he had at PSG and Arsenal who'd seen better times.

Watching McGinn yesterday he's improved so much from being the typical all action British midfielder who'd be up and down the pitch but would be rash with passes and give the ball away too much. Barely wasted a pass in the second half yesterday so a great captain's performance.
 
It's actually baffling or hilarious how badly the team are coached. Give me Ole back over this shit
 
I think there is merit to the "it'll get worse before it gets better" thing.

We've been getting top four every other year and have basically been papering over the ever-growing number of cracks in doing so.

We need to gut the squad and get rid of pretty much all of the players that can "do a job" and start building an actual team.

However, the manager is part of this process and I've seen very little to suggest that Ten Hag is the man to get us through it.

I think there's a reasonable chance we finish outside of the top 6 next season, even with a new manager bringing better performances.

How many times can we do that though?

We've already done that under Ten Hag since the summer of 2022. We only have 10-11 players left who played under Ole.
 
Because of injuries obviously. Right so you're rating players very much in the here and now. I'm talking about where this squad could finish under a more structured style of play that suits these players.
Yeah I mean from the availability this season, we don't have players that can break top 4. It points to poor squad building more than anything else.
 
So across two summer transfer windows under ETH we've spent over 450m pounds (net spend around -350m pounds) and now some fans claim our squad is worse than Villa or Spurs, and that on paper we have no business in the top5. Quite incredible if you think about it
 
So across two summer transfer windows under ETH we've spent over 450m pounds (net spend around -350m pounds) and now some fans claim our squad is worse than Villa or Spurs, and that on paper we have no business in the top5. Quite incredible if you think about it

Some will do anything to absolve the manager.
 
Maguire and Wan Bissaka aren't even first choice if everyone is fit. Rashford has scored 20-30 goals in 3 of the last 4 seasons, yes he's inconsistent. Garnacho wouldn't be playing every week if the clusterfeck that is our £160m right wing of Antony and Sancho didn't happen.

Spurs and Villa don't have better squads. They have better managers who are getting the best out of those squads this season. We have the opposite.



But weren't discussing winning trophies, we're talking about finishing in the top 4. Were we not?

You say this squad isn't good enough to finish above 5th to 9th. Yet it came 3rd 12 months ago.



Agreed, no one would have picked Spurs to qualify for the CL this season after finishing 8th last year and then losing 60% of their goals in Kane.

I'm always looking at what's needed to be winning trophies, top 4 should be the fall back option, not the main aim.

Over the next few years.

Getting to the point where you're in a position to win the league should be the number 1 priority.

And once you're in a position where winning the league is your top priority, then you can focus on looking beyond that and look at competing for the CL.

FA Cup is always nice to win, it should be next on the list. But that and League cup should be considered as markers for success to give players the experience of winning, so they know how to win under pressure.
 
Across the last five full seasons, we've scored 339 points to Spurs' 323. Hard not to think they'll have closed that gap a lot further when this season is done, and they'll have got more points than us in 3 out of the last 6 seasons. We're on about that level and have been for a while now.
 
I judge an elite manager by his ability to recognise a teams weaknesses and make instant changes to adjust in game and in season. Last year ETH showed these signs, we lost our first two games after he was given a baptism of fire and he went on a run with the players because he said the team lacked fitness, the team
Instantly improved and respected him.

He then started to show elite tactical skills by making the right substitutions to change or see out games. Even when he brought in Sabitzer and Weghorst on loan, fans initially not impressed were won over. Two domestic finals, one trophy and 3rd place in the PL with 75 points, 1 point more than when Ole came second.

That’s was last year, then it’s almost like a clone took over and did the complete opposite, that’s why we need to get rid of him, the next coach must be told that the club expects year on year improvement with set targets and the bare minimum, even in year one is CL qualification otherwise the sack, that’s how big clubs operate!

If the coach was at Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern and they did not win their domestic league , they would be instantly sacked, United should be no different!

ETH should have been sacked In December for coming bottom of a CL group, he’s had his second chance and enough games in the PL since then to make amends, so he has to be sacked because this clown will finish 7th, 8th or 9th and that’s why we should still do it this week after the Coventry game win or lose, Give Ruud the job on the interim, he’s free and won a cup final in Holland plus at least he’ll set up the team to score more goals in the last 6 or 7 games of the season.
Wow, hang on. Weghorst and 'won over' in one sentence. Technically worst player since Bebe, played ahead of Elanga. Absolute farce of a seining, no goal threat, played at one point as a target midfielder but couldn't even win headers. Agree with much of the rest of the post.
 
I don’t think he’s being sacked until after the last game of the season. There’s no one in place to take over until the end of season.
Neither do I, but Jose wasn't sacked after Sevilla. We just all knew it was over from that moment. Perhaps Ole - Villareal is more appropriate than Watford.
 
How many times can we do that though?

We've already done that under Ten Hag since the summer of 2022. We only have 10-11 players left who played under Ole.

We do it until we've replaced the mediocre players with better players.

10-11 players is quite a lot, especially when the list of retained includes players of the level of Victor Lindelof, Harry Maguire, Anthony Martial, Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Scott McTominay (and Jadon Sancho, Donny van de Beek and Facundo Pellistri).

That's before you start looking at Varane and even Shaw, who have massive availability issues.

Then when you consider the players we've brought in, Martinez and Malacia have injury issues (Mount possibly on this list too), Casemiro, Eriksen and Evans were only ever going to be short-term options, Amrabat isn't even a permanent signing, Antony seems wholly unsuited to the Premier League, and even Hojlund represents something of a gamble.

If you expect the next manager to utilise more than a handful of this squad and bring about success, then you're deluding yourself.
 
Sorting out the manager will not make Bruno cultured on the ball, AWB be less awkward, Rashford more technical and gutsy, or make Casemiro treat the ball like a hot potato. They will raise their game but ultimately they wont be able to play that dominating football we want to watch.

We have enough data to see that these players are not good enough and we need to have a plan to gradually weed them out. In any case they can do better and ETH has been poor and needs to go

Both arguements can be true, the manager is not good enough and the players not good enough either

You've named four players in your post. Does a manager need to have a perfect squad to achieve a goal difference that isn't negative and a top 4 finish on the table. After spending £400m no less. Why are we still talking about the "players" as if we're still looking at Ole's and Jose squads also. There were seven players on the pitch on Saturday that have nothing to do with those eras.
 
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When Ole did that it wasn’t pragmatism, he was a kick and rush PE Teacher, it wasn’t good enough and we needed to develop our style of play.
Now we have a manager who is slowly developing the playing style and everyone wants him kicked out. Make it make sense.

A playing style of leaving so much space in midfield you can drive a truck through it whilst routinely giving up 20+ shots a game (even against relegation fodder) in the hope that you're not 3-0 down by half time. Make that make sense.

Developing a style of play is pointless if it doesn't work. Seems to me everything he comes up with, opposition managers work out almost immediately.

Almost all of our first choice defenders missing on Saturday, with a kid playing at centre-half and he sets the team up to expose it. No protection from the midfield.

The players attitude can be questioned, but the system doesn't work.
 
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