Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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RedRocket9908 said:
So how come Liverpool can have brought Michael Edwards back, agreed a deal for the Technical Director from Bournemouth, and even reached an agreement with Saints over Jason Wilcox quickly and without any ridiculous drawb out saga yet SJR and his team have no one in place after 3 months?
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The terms of all contracts and acquisitions are totally unique. Wilcox may well be sorted swiftly (how long were Liverpool and Bournemouth talking by the way?). Ashworth we are paying the price for someone in the middle of a big contract- was never going to busy.
I think you live in a dream world if you thought anything was going to be sorted inside 3 months.
 
Superunknown said:
Hey, man. That's unfair. Alonso has got ideas, tactics and strategy. How's Erik meant to compete with that?! :lol:
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Besides that Alonso was hired by a competent DoF who built an excellent squad. He is the X-factor to get this squad to perform on an extremely high level, but we should also give credit to the structure that created the squad.
 
Honestly an awful start from INEOS. From the time it took to get the deal sorted for buying the club, to not doing anything in January, to dithering in Hag, to the amount of time to recruit head positions. It’s actually been a disaster which can get a lot worse if nothing has happened come August.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
How is it stupid? Other clubs dont choose who they want as a sporting director or technical director then take over 3 months to appoint them
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Pretty sure it actually happens all the time. Going way back to when Roman took over Chelsea they hired Kenyon but United put him on gardening leave for a few months as he was under contract. Berrada and Ashworth is the same deal, they're on gardening leave until the end of the season.
 
Oranges038 said:
You better believe it can get worse.

SAF was master of building balanced squads, he was always looking at where players would be in 2 or 3 or 4 years. It's why he was always ready to let players go even if from the outside it seemed like a crazy decision.

Now, if you just look at the age profile of the squad, break it down into the 3 categories he used and look at players you think are actually going to be able to play a part of a team capable of winning big trophies in 2-3 or 4 years.

Older 29+

Evans - 36
Casemiro- 32
Maguire - 31
Varane - 30
Bruno - 29
Lindelof - 29

Those players alone are going to need replacing over the next year or two. Bruno might get 3/4 years but the way he plays he could be burnt out by then.

Middle age 24- 28 - players you might expect to get 3/4 more years out of.

Onana - 28
Shaw - 28
Mount - 25
Martinez - 26
Rashford- 26
Antony - 24
McTominay - 27
Dalot - 25
AWB - 26
Malacia - 24

Out of those - you're realistically only seeing 3 or 4 as being capable players in a team wanting to challenge for trophies. Shaw is finished and needs to go, McTominay ain't good enough he needs to go, AWB same, needs to go. Still serious question marks over Rashford, Dalot, Malacia and Antony. Mount / Martinez / Onana again serious questions marks, but you could maybe see them having an impact.

Younger players 18- 23

Hojlund - 21
Mainoo - 18
Garnacho - 19
Kwabwala - 19
Amad - 21

There's a lot of potential there, but whether or not it can be realised depends on how the players in the above age groups are replaced, obviously you need a balance of all 3. But the upper age groups leave a hell of lot to be desired and young players need good leadership within the group and Utd don't really have that.

All in all, people don't like to hear the words rebuild or transition, but it's where Utd are, it's constantly half building a house, sacking the builder and starting again every couple of years because the foundations weren't laid right to begin with.
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That and we keep hiring shit builders.

It could get worse, it's possible. But it really shouldn't, while this isn't a title winning squad it's not a squad that should be coming 8th or 9th either. Injuries haven't helped but the shitshow we've witnessed this season could have been largely avoided if ETH was smarter with how he sets us up. But he wasn't, it's too late now to undo the damage and it'll likely cost him his job come June.

So we start over.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
Im not talking about the on the pitch fortunes im talking about things like the way they are remained completely silent and done nothing while we are struggling badly, how they have done nothing to address the ridiculous ammount of debt, how they have upset so many other clubs by approaching their staff yet have not yet got a single person theyve approached signed up and in place, the way they havent given us any real information on what exactly their plans are or an opputunity for supporters to question them, and that way they are talking about building a big new stadium the club simply cant afford.
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They've been here 4 months. Jesus wept, give them a chance to get their feet under the table.
 
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Andy_Cole said:
Honestly an awful start from INEOS. From the time it took to get the deal sorted for buying the club, to not doing anything in January, to dithering in Hag, to the amount of time to recruit head positions. It’s actually been a disaster which can get a lot worse if nothing has happened come August.
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Oh don’t you start
 
UnofficialDevil said:
He better not be here come tomorrow morning, or else INEOS are full of shite.
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Exactly, we want owners who take decisive action like Chelsea got. Imagine if these oil shilling idiots actually waited to get a structure of actual experts in place to oversee big decisions at the club.

I want Ten Hag gone as much as most. I also want us to make the right decision on what happens after that.
 
What the hell is this mess?!
Andy_Cole said:
Honestly an awful start from INEOS.
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They’ve barely begun. It’s been 2 months. Even the AI Sheikh couldn’t do anything that fast. :rolleyes:
Andy_Cole said:
From the time it took to get the deal sorted for buying the club,
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Please explain how they could have speeded up the Glazers? You do know it was the Glazers holding up the transaction, right? Hence the Christmas deadline ultimatum set by Sit Jim.
Andy_Cole said:
to not doing anything in January
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The deal was announced as complete on the 20th February. What did you want them to do in January? They could do as much at that point as you could have done.
Andy_Cole said:
to dithering in Hag,
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What?!
Andy_Cole said:
to the amount of time to recruit head positions.
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Again, if you could explain how to speed up Newcastle agreeing to a compromise for Ashworth I’m sure there are folk at the club who’d be interested to hear it. You know we also have a new CEO and a new Technical director already lined up, right?

I mean this is just parody at this point. You can’t possibly be this down on everything, to be criticising INEOS like this already?
Walk to the correct solutions, not run to the wrong ones. Things take time, STFU and be patient! Good things come to those who wait.
 
Judas said:
That's no excuse, they need to be doing more!

Honestly, I was nervous about INEOS, but I'm willing to give them a try and so far I don't really feel the need to shit myself over how they're handling things, not yet.
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I wasn't excited but I actually think they have made close to the perfect start.

They are addressing the underlying issues that have caused the clubs stagnation for the past decade and doing it fast.
 
They may as well hold on until the end of the season now anyway but he clearly needs to be getting more out of the players at his disposal. This squad if we were being pragmatic in our approach as in playing on the counter we would have probably made top four. I’m just hoping this is the last season of us looking abject
 
Ali Dia said:
They may as well hold on until the end of the season now anyway but he clearly needs to be getting more out of the players at his disposal. This squad if we were being pragmatic in our approach as in playing on the counter we would have probably made top four. I’m just hoping this is the last season of us looking abject
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I'd personally rather being Ole back and pray for vibes to carry us through to a fluke FA Cup win then get our manager in the summer.

Won't happen though so irrelevant.
 
Ali Dia said:
being pragmatic in our approach as in playing on the counter
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When Ole did that it wasn’t pragmatism, he was a kick and rush PE Teacher, it wasn’t good enough and we needed to develop our style of play.
Now we have a manager who is slowly developing the playing style and everyone wants him kicked out. Make it make sense.
 
Plant0x84 said:
When Ole did that it wasn’t pragmatism, he was a kick and rush PE Teacher, it wasn’t good enough and we needed to develop our style of play.
Now we have a manager who is slowly developing the playing style and everyone wants him kicked out. Make it make sense.
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There's slow, and then there's whatever the feck this is.
 
Plant0x84 said:
When Ole did that it wasn’t pragmatism, he was a kick and rush PE Teacher, it wasn’t good enough and we needed to develop our style of play.
Now we have a manager who is slowly developing the playing style and everyone wants him kicked out. Make it make sense.
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Slowly developing? So slow it's going in reverse.

The passing in midfield, the interchange between front players, defensive shape, pressing from the front and yes even the playing out from defenders was better under the "kick and rush PE teacher" than anything we have seen this season.

So if Ole was a PE teacher then this chap could barely run an after school club. There it makes sense.
 
I remember tweets from a couple of months ago saying that Ineos won't sack Ten Hag immediately unless the wheels really come off. Does make you wonder how far off we are from that right now?

Maybe at this stage they'll try to see it out till the summer, but I suppose there is a lot of damage that can be done still. Their standing with supporters, the way the club is viewed by potential managers/players, the happiness of players here that we may want to keep, the mood of the supporters...

I get that they're trying to ride it out till we have a structure in place, but they must be being pushed to their limit right now.

The other thing that could be an issue is when these new guys are going to be in place and how long they will then need before they're ready to make a move. Is it happening now? Will they be ready to go come the last game of the season? Will it be the end of summer, when we've no chance to do anything? These are all questions that I'm sure a lot of supporters have.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Why? What good would that do??
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Might give us a bounce that would give us a slightly better chance at winning the FA Cup which would be something considering this season is a write off anyway given the ineptitude of the current coach who will surely be replaced in the summer anyway.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Might give us a bounce that would give us a slightly better chance at winning the FA Cup which would be something considering this season is a write off anyway given the ineptitude of the current coach who will surely be replaced in the summer anyway.
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I wouldn't trust Ineos with a temporary Ole hire in the same way others don't trust them with Southgate. The 0.1% chance that the supporter in SJR, who was there in 99, suddenly gets the idea in his head to make it permanent again, is too big a risk for me. If we finished the season with the same bounce as he brought the first time, then I know the lemmings in our fan base would happy clap their way off that cliff once again. And he might just cave to that pressure.
 
Andy_Cole said:
Honestly an awful start from INEOS. From the time it took to get the deal sorted for buying the club, to not doing anything in January, to dithering in Hag, to the amount of time to recruit head positions. It’s actually been a disaster which can get a lot worse if nothing has happened come August.
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Wrong on all counts.
 
mu4c_20le said:
All about perspective. Leicester fans would probably cream their pants at the thought of appointing him right now.
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:lol:

We're feeling generous and will pass on this dream signing. Keep him, give him a 10 years contract extension and another billion to throw out the window.

I'm sure it will click once the right structure is in place.
 
simonhch said:
You’ve had an absolute ‘mare here with these posts. I understand emotions are running high, but a bit of common sense wouldn’t go amiss.

Firstly, we’ve heard more from SJR in the last three months, than we’ve heard from the Glazers in 19 years of ownership. Secondly, we’ve appointed Berrada already, who starts at the end of the season, and we are going to have Wilcox and Ashworth once compensation is sorted. Newcastle playing silly buggers only makes them look daft, not us. All the appointments are “best in class” and have been widely lauded in the media and across the fan base. Your exception noted.

Thirdly, SJR has already paid off 120m of our revolving credit facility, which while not touching the acquisition debt, just highlights that your claim about no movement on debt is patently false.

Fourthly, the idea that any off the field restructuring during the season will have any effect on fortunes on the pitch in the near term, is about as naive an expectation as I can imagine. The fact that the new minority owners have already let go the DoF, and CEO, as well as appointed a new - highly coveted - CEO and are closing on deals for a much heralded DoF and Technical Director - not to mention the new stadium task force in conjunction with the government and City of Manchester - is no shortage of proactive achievement in a very short space of time. In fact, one can say that this is the most focused and decisive United have been off the field in a very, very long time.

When talking about the debt, and the cost of a new stadium, it’s best just to admit that you know nothing about what the finance plans are. Because that’s what you know….nothing. None of us know what SJR plans to do about it or how a new stadium will be financed; but suffice to say it won’t be a case of finding a couple of billion down the back of the couch and paying off the debt as soon as he arrives. Least of all, to meet your preposterous expectations. What we do know is that we’ve had more information, more actual movement, and more communication from Ineos about revamping or replacing the stadium, then we’ve ever gotten from the Glazers. Again, in 3 months versus 19 years.

For a long time at United football decisions have not been made by football people. It’s been made very clear that this is going to change moving forwards, hence us going after the best football operations people we can identify. With that in mind, the decision on sacking the coach and who to replace him with, will most likely be made in concert with those key people. Not by the owner alone, and not without considerable forethought going in to what the long term vision is. I can only surmise from the limited intelligible content in your outrage, that you expect SJR to be vocal in the media about how bad results are and how low standards and performance are. Is that something you really want in a new owner? Lambasting the coach and players in public? He’s already made it clear that current standards and performance are well below what is acceptable at United and that his goal is to put us back on top; now is the time to let his actions do the speaking; not throwing a public fit. And in those terms, with his removal of Arnold and Murtough, and impending appointments of Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth, he is doing exactly that. Exactly what I would want to see from a serious owner, not talk or limb thrashing in the media.

SJR, I feel, has communicated very clearly that there is a strong strategic vision for United. A vision that is going to be driven by the results of the ongoing structural review, and the inputs of key football people. There won’t be any short term, knee jerk thinking; because that’s the last thing the club needs at this point, and no way to actually put the club back at the top. We’ve been told that the strategy is to identify the playing style, and appoint the best coach we can get to implement it; with an overarching structure controlling and evaluating recruitment, performance management, youth development etc., that remains constant despite coaching changes. That doesn’t happen overnight, but nevertheless appears to be happening very quickly.

It’s honestly hard to know whether to take your posts seriously or not. Or if you are just trolling. If those are your real thoughts, then I can only conclude that you are not a serious person, and/or don’t understand even basic organisational principles like strategic intent, let alone more complex facets like financial and managerial accounting, change management, strategic and structural analysis, operational excellence, resource allocation etc etc.

To save yourself a lot of heartache and headache, please internalise the reality that the success of an owner driven organisational change project should be measured in years, not weeks or months. Even by appointing a new coach, whether or not that can be deemed a success or failure, is likely to take at least 6-12 months.

I’m honestly completely baffled by your take on this, and have given you a longer response than your abomination of a post merited. I am not sold on whether Ineos will be god owners or not, it’s far too early to tell, but I do like what I see so far; especially in the context of what preceded them. In time they will be judged, but only when there is enough time and data to do so. Short of an oil rich state buying us and writing a blank cheque for the debt and a new stadium, I am not sure what more you could have wanted in the first three months of their ownership.
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Now now, we don't need any of this common sense round ere!
Brilliant post. ;)
 
Plant0x84 said:
When Ole did that it wasn’t pragmatism, he was a kick and rush PE Teacher, it wasn’t good enough and we needed to develop our style of play.
Now we have a manager who is slowly developing the playing style and everyone wants him kicked out. Make it make sense.
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:wenger: there's blindly backing the manager, and then there's this. Bizarre.
 
Plant0x84 said:
When Ole did that it wasn’t pragmatism, he was a kick and rush PE Teacher, it wasn’t good enough and we needed to develop our style of play.
Now we have a manager who is slowly developing the playing style and everyone wants him kicked out. Make it make sense.
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Whatever style Ten Hag is *trying* to develop, it's rubbish. Give me Ole's counter attack over this dross any day
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Whatever style Ten Hag is *trying* to develop, it's rubbish. Give me Ole's counter attack over this dross any day
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I agree with the sentiment that peak Ole ball is better than what we've seen this season.

The sentiment however is that stripping away bad habits and forcing players to adopt a style reliant on technical ability will be ugly and make them look worse. It's probably needed if there is a systemic way of playing that needs to be embedded across the squad. The shite ones would eventually move on for better transfers.

Ten hags undoing for me however is the poor squad building and lack of pragmatism in light of these handicaps. He could embed a style that shows directness and playing out from the back, without actually being so open in his midfield. He's chosen not to and itl probably be his downfall.

That being said, I want whoever our next guy is to adopt his way irrespective of the pain. I don't want an Ole ball bounce.
 
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