Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Red Dreams]

This thread is toxic beyond belief. Dear God, it's never going to get any better, is it? If we win FA cup and get top 4, we'll be reading all summer how our standarts have dropped, how this is not nearly enough and how Eric should get sacked immediately.

Many on here have never followed the team.
Agenda driven nonsense.

Erik will certainly be allowed to finish his contract. He will get all the help he needs in the summer.
In fact they are already many meetings and discussions going on.

 

[VP89]

Except I didn't, that's what you wanted to read it as because you we're in here exclaiming that there was literally nothing wrong with anything. I simply reposted a picture that another user had posted about 10 minutes before. It was a great game, one for the ages, an FA cup classic and we're all very happy with the outcome, for the team, and for the manager, but lets not pretend it was some sort of complete performance. It wasn't until Ten Hag's hand was forced and we went deep with a counter that we took control of the game and Liverpool had no answer. Some more of that kind of practical thinking will help him keep his job and help us win more games.

"I simply reposted a picture".
Think your agenda was more than obvious with that post, it's absolutely insane you wanted to share that at that particular time. So many other posters are on to you now

 

[NLunited]

It was actually a major strength of his last year when we went on the run of good results, the performances weren't always great but he had a habit of making changes that impacted the game in a positive manner. Maybe my main issue with him this year is that it's felt like he's had no feel of what's wrong with the team or how to fix it, Sunday was really good in that he was bold in his adjustments and they were pivotal to us getting back into a game that was drifting away for a while.

I think there‘s a difference in the assessment of what is wrong with the team between Ten Hag and many fans.

Playing a high press carries risk: it‘s something that every high-pressing team faces and even the best will give up a lot of space at times in midfield or behind the defence.

To take the Pool game as an example: we weren‘t overrun in midfield. We chose to press high and fall back in a low block when they play through us.

What was wrong yesterday? Not defending the half spaces effectively, especially at the end of the first half where we allowed players to dribble into pockets of space.

We should have been more compact at those moments, more pro-active in challenging the ball carriers and shifting over to compress the space.

That‘s my assessment. We need to improve at those things because it is where we have been hurt the most this season.

The high-press/low block strategy is sustainable, and we will see it until we get fast cb‘s and a physical dm in in sumner.

 

[Member 58925]

I'm noticing a few posters have gone missing in this thread in the last couple of days and I'm sure they'll turn back up next time we lose. What a miserable fan experience that must be.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

You are tolerance personified "be the way I think you should be or you are in the wrong"

I am happy to live and let live, but in terms of lies you need to look up the definition and re-read what you post

Im happy to live and let live most of the time (85%) but there are occasions when a blow out is needed. It’s not good to be passive all the time.

I didn’t say people can’t voice their opinions and I never said everybody needs to agree on the same things. You said/impied that I did, that’s a lie and it’s one an awful lot of people do on these forums , making up narratives to look like they have some sort of high ground.

Going by your logic I should be allowed to call out what I see as chronicly negative posters. By your live and let live approach you should be able to respect the opinions of people fed up of extremely negative posters, posters like me who usually take your “live and let live” approach and leave them to spam the theads with their negative stuff. See how that sort of reductive reasoning can go both ways?

You say you want different opinions, just not ones that don’t take your apparent “live and let live” approach. How is that different from what you accuse me of , you know “ be the way I think you should be or you are in the wrong". This is literally been your only responses to my posts.

 

[Member 58925]

I think there‘s a difference in the assessment of what is wrong with the team between Ten Hag and many fans.

Playing a high press carries risk: it‘s something that every high-pressing team faces and even the best will give up a lot of space at times in midfield or behind the defence.

To take the Pool game as an example: we weren‘t overrun in midfield. We chose to press high and fall back in a low block when they play through us.

What was wrong yesterday? Not defending the half spaces effectively, especially at the end of the first half where we allowed players to dribble into pockets of space.

We should have been more compact at those moments, more pro-active in challenging the ball carriers and shifting over to compress the space.

That‘s my assessment. We need to improve at those things because it is where we have been hurt the most this season.

The high-press/low block strategy is sustainable, and we will see it until we get fast cb‘s and a physical dm in in sumner.

It comes down to defending further up the pitch or pressure on the ball and tighter marking in midfield. We're not in the dressing room or on the bench so we can't really know if it's fatigue, certain players not being arsed, the opposition identifying the traps, etc...Might be a little bit of everything but it's been a problem all season long.

 

[crossy1686]

"I simply reposted a picture".
Think your agenda was more than obvious with that post, it's absolutely insane you wanted to share that at that particular time. So many other posters are on to you now

Yes, me being objective about our performance doesn't quite sit well with your reality does it? Not really sure what you're on about with people being "on to me" but here you are again, gloating over fellow United fans when we've just had the best result possibly in the FA cup ever. Please do carry on, your credibility is all but dead at this point.

 

[VP89]

Yes, me being objective about our performance doesn't quite sit well with your reality does it?

I'm not gloating, I'm pointing out you chose to share a screenshot at the most weird time at the game, and that screenshot had next to no context. It's a cup game, we are chasing, we have nothing to lose and we went for broke. It's the right play and it paid off. Liverpool themselves tried to overload our final third too, but those segments wouldn't suit your narrative, so you took a screenshot and tried to make it representative (which it wasn't).

There was literally nothing objective about your performance evaluation, and I can see how some fans have actually questioned your support as a fan.

 

[crossy1686]

I'm not gloating, I'm pointing out you chose to share a screenshot at the most weird time at the game, and that screenshot had next to no context. It's a cup game, we are chasing, we have nothing to lose and we went for broke. It's the right play and it paid off. Liverpool themselves tried to overload our final third too, but those segments wouldn't suit your narrative, so you took a screenshot and tried to make it representative (which it wasn't).

There was literally nothing objective about your performance evaluation, and I can see how some fans have actually questioned your support as a fan.

Sorry to disappoint you but no one is questioning anything, people are having a laugh, and predictably, the people who are staunch in their support of the manager are posting like the last 8 months have been vindicated by one game. You're so entrenched in your unwavering support for the manager (because it gives you total freedom to shit all over the players) that you're projecting how you feel onto my posts.

As I've already said, the game was great, the result was fantastic, I'm happy for the players and the manager. It was genuinely nice to see his chuffed little face when he saw the Stretford end after the game, it also looked like he was holding back some tears at some point, all in all a brilliant moment. Does that excuse the fact we fade away after 30 minutes because we're asking the midfield to get into the box and cover the defence in the same movement? No, does it feck.

Some of our best football and best moments of control was when we sat deep and hit on the counter. Erik deserves credit for fixing the gulf that was appearing in midfield, and if he continues to do that between now and the end of the season he'll deservedly keep his job going into next season.

I know you really want me to be disappointed that we won, but I never will be. I'm sorry that you can only find joy in other United fans unhappiness.

 

[NLunited]

It comes down to defending further up the pitch or pressure on the ball and tighter marking in midfield. We're not in the dressing room or on the bench so we can't really know if it's fatigue, certain players not being arsed, the opposition identifying the traps, etc...Might be a little bit of everything but it's been a problem all season long.

It is also tactics: we are overloading the box and our cb‘s are not pushing up. A conscious choice, with the players we have available.

The best midfielders on the pitch yesterday were McTominay and Mainoo, and they were both mostly in the opponents box.

 

[Member 58925]

Yes, me being objective about our performance doesn't quite sit well with your reality does it? Not really sure what you're on about with people being "on to me" but here you are again, gloating over fellow United fans when we've just had the best result possibly in the FA cup ever. Please do carry on, your credibility is all but dead at this point.

You posted that picture because you wanted to show that despite the positive result, you're still right. Granted that's an odd set of priorities to have in that moment but hey to each their own I suppose.

 

[EI Beatle]

Erik deserves credit for fixing the gulf that was appearing in midfield,

if you watch the game back it wasn't until klopp made his subs in bringing Szoboszlai off leaving them short in midfield we gained more control

 

[VP89]

Sorry to disappoint you but no one is questioning anything, people are having a laugh, and predictably, the people who are staunch in their support of the manager are posting like the last 8 months have been vindicated by one game. You're so entrenched in your unwavering support for the manager (because it gives you total freedom to shit all over the players) that you're projecting how you feel onto my posts.

You're right it's more than just questioning. They're literally calling you out. Sharing that picture at that time is literally the dumbest thing to do if you wanted to present yourself as a genuine fan "objectively" analysing the game. One it's shit analysis, two it's shit timing and three it bares no relevance in cup knock out context.

And it's not one game. In 2024 we played 12 games, won 9 and drew 1, and lost 2.

You boiling it down to 1 game further cements the view that you are so hardened in hatrid of the manager you literally can't see anything else.

 

[alexthelion]

Yeah but they are not and you are not so kind of a weird analogy

Dude you know you don't have to read every post! censor yourself not everybody else, you see a negative post then skip it, I am happy I have been able to change your world man, must have been hell being forced to read things you didn't want to!

The idea that you think people should not voice their opinion because you don't want to read it, I mean you leave me flabbergasted

As for repetitive views it is objectively the same from both the pro and neg sides of the debate

Have you perhaps considered that those posting negatively (or objectively) in the aftermath of the Liverpool game were doing so in response to the pro ETH movement extoling him as the new messiah following the victory, or even that objective critique of how any match was played is valid, both positive and negative? I mean what you want some inane chat room full of sheep?

 

[Battery]

I still think he is the right man for the job.

The amount of crap he has been handed and still manages to get results.

I agree, the way we are playing is not great and it seems to change match to match, but is that down to injuries, moody players or bad tactics, I don't know but I think he is doing ok at the moment.

 

[Grande]

This best sums up my views on Erik Ten Hag.

TL;DR version: If you can’t take the time to read it, you probably should refrain from the manager position until you can muster the patience, seeing as the whole question is a TL;DR question.

With all the previous managers I'd given up hope and was happy with them getting the sack. And LVG was someone I wanted us to appoint and even with him I felt he deserved the sack, eventhough he was a personal favourite of mine. But right now things may not look as rosey as some fans had envisaged, but it's the first time since Fergie retired where I honestly believe we're close to completing the system of play. And that system of play is one where we build play from the back, press high as a collective unit and have the players at the back and in midfield who have the attributes to control large space in defensive transition.

This for me is a process which requires 3 players to complete the system as far as the first 11 is concerned. We can sack him but the equation would still be the same with someone like Graham Potter who will also have to sign the same players that fit the criteria above. There has to be a reason for me to be patient with a head coach, and it's pretty clear to me that we just don't have the players who can handle transitions in a higher defensive line along with missing one player in midfield who has the technical and athletic ability to raise the level of our midfield along with Kobbie Mainoo.

Klopp had a better midfield 3 at his disposal yesterday from a technical perspective and had two CBs who are absolutely comfortable defending higher up the pitch. And those are the two big differences between the teams right now and we have the opportunity in the summer transfer window to potentially eradicate those key differences imo. Our forwards have goals in them but unlike at Liverpool or Arsenal, their players at the back and in midfield provide a much stronger foundation for their forwards to thrive both in possession and out of possession via applying the press because the guys behind them are comfortable at stepping up and closing off the space infront of them to maintain compactness. Our players at the back can't do this and it creates all sorts of issues with people then claiming we don't have a midfield, when in reality our CBs are refusing to push up, which is understandable with certain players because it would then expose them in 1v1 situations high up the pitch.

Does ten Hag and the players know that the back-line isn't stepping up to fill in the vacated space? Yes, we now have clear evidence from the game yesterday that ten Hag was seen telling the last line to push up but they kept back pedalling. I don't blame Lindelof in that regard because he's not really that type of CB, and if one player in the last line doesn't want to push up, it compromises the other players who will likely be confused as they don't know if they should stay or go, which then benefits the opponent who has players in the big gaping hole in the middle. Our front guys and advanced midfielders have done their job but have been let down by the last line who have not moved up. Below is evidence from The Athletic podcast about ten Hag gesturing to the backline to move up and Diogo Dalot/ten Hag in the clip/interview below also acknowledging that the spacing between the lines is a problem.






But this problem didn't just come about now, it's been like that since Solskjaer was manager and when he bought Maguire and sold Smalling to create a backline involving Maguire, Lindelof and De Gea as the GK, he made a massive mistake at a time when the EPL was becoming more tactical and even more transition based with many teams looking for players with pace and power along with the technical requirements on the ball. So to make up the disadvantage athletically, he went with a midfield two of McFred to protect his backline, which did help with getting 2nd and 3rd, but it was never sustainable and the system was flawed due to the personnel he bought.

There was only 4 starters in the game yesterday that were part of the new regime. Onana was a ten Hag signing with Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund all being John Murtough signings via the scouts he brought to the club since 2013, or scouts that he replaced Bout and Lawlor with who identified Hojlund. I'm not saying some of the existing players are not good enough because I do believe there's a few who are very good and will contribute going forward for us. But ten Hag is still having to utilise a lot of players that were bought by previous managers and it's not always easy to shift them if they don't want to leave.

But when you inherit a team which has no long-term central striker, no long-term GK for what is required in the game today, not one CB you want to build the team with going forward and a midfield of Fred and McTominay with Matic being past his best and Pogba leaving on a free. Then you can't just focus everything on the midfield in the first two years because signing a striker, GK, CBs, along with creating a midfield composition will take time. We need a couple of midfielders and a couple of CBs imo, and I believe those positions are absolutely in the cross hairs unlike like last season where the GK and striker positions became a priority.

When Real Madrid, Bayern or even Barcelona in the past sacked their managers, it was after providing them with all the tools necessary to succeed as far the playing personnel is concerned. So when Ancelotti or LVG was sacked from Bayern, you can't really say it was unjust with the players they had. But in the EPL the league is as strong as I've ever seen it, and I believe giving ten Hag the time and the players that are currently missing in the team via the transfer window would be sensible, and when he has those players then I believe you can pass your judgement imo because then he will have a complete squad as far as wanting to play the system he wants to implement.

 

[Wolfbot]

I think there‘s a difference in the assessment of what is wrong with the team between Ten Hag and many fans.

Playing a high press carries risk: it‘s something that every high-pressing team faces and even the best will give up a lot of space at times in midfield or behind the defence.

To take the Pool game as an example: we weren‘t overrun in midfield. We chose to press high and fall back in a low block when they play through us.

What was wrong yesterday? Not defending the half spaces effectively, especially at the end of the first half where we allowed players to dribble into pockets of space.

We should have been more compact at those moments, more pro-active in challenging the ball carriers and shifting over to compress the space.

That‘s my assessment. We need to improve at those things because it is where we have been hurt the most this season.

The high-press/low block strategy is sustainable, and we will see it until we get fast cb‘s and a physical dm in in sumner.

The game against Liverpool on Sunday was exciting, what a comeback and the most enjoyment I've felt watching United in years.

I'm not so sure the high-press/low bock strategy is a sustainable strategy though, at least not the way we've been playing it. Your forward players and mids have to be really quick and aggressive to win the ball back and maintain pressure, or force the opposition to go long and we haven't really seen that much this season. In fact we often don't win the ball back, give away possession if we do, or the traps are passed through too easily. The opposition then has acres of space to play in with the low block approach and can get a lot of shots off as we don't defend the areas outside the box well if at all.

I'm bringing this up because Liverpool got two deflected goals which on the face of it seems lucky, but when you're conceding around 20 shots a game regularly, that sort of thing is bound to happen and we've been a bit fortunate that it hasn't happened more often.

It might improve if more mobile players are brought in, but I'm not convinced it's the best route to having the best chance of winning enough games to win the league.

 

[NLunited]

The game against Liverpool on Sunday was exciting, what a comeback and the most enjoyment I've felt watching United in years.

I'm not so sure the high-press/low bock strategy is a sustainable strategy though, at least not the way we've been playing it. Your forward players and mids have to be really quick and aggressive to win the ball back and maintain pressure, or force the opposition to go long and we haven't really seen that much this season. In fact we often don't win the ball back, give away possession if we do, or the traps are passed through too easily. The opposition then has acres of space to play in with the low block approach and can get a lot of shots off as we don't defend the areas outside the box well if at all.

I'm bringing this up because Liverpool got two deflected goals which on the face of it seems lucky, but when you're conceding around 20 shots a game regularly, that sort of thing is bound to happen and we've been a bit fortunate that it hasn't happened more often.

It might improve if more mobile players are brought in, but I'm not convinced it's the best route to having the best chance of winning enough games to win the league.

On the first half we pressed very effectively. What changed was that the scousers started being more careful with the ball, less risky. It paid off at first for them because we didn‘t defend well around our box and the half spaces. That we do need to improve.

We have few draws because the games are end to end with many shots. To win plenty of league games with this strategy, we have to defend well and not give up spaces like we did in the first half against Pool.

Limit the opposition to low quality chances and run riot with our attackers. It‘s ok with me to do this instead of a more conservative approach. We will see whether it will get us enough points to grab 4th/5th.

 

[LDUred]

He's been very, very erratic in the transfer market, but with Dalot improving and with Lisandro able to play the ball forward from defence, the way he wants to play becomes much more coherent. We desperately need a genuine sitting midfielder because it's clear that Casemiro doesn't have the legs for that role and Mainoo is better higher up the pitch. If you look at Liverpool, City, and Arsenal, the workrate of their midfields is way beyond what we get through with any combination of players. That's partly why there's often space to attack in between the two defensive lines because most of our midfielders naturally push forward and lack positional sense. Casemiro is one exception but his workrate has really diminished this year. I suppose that Amrabat was supposed to fill that role and rotate with Case but his loan Erik has clearly identified the wrong player, there.

Lisandro is so vital to how he wants us to play I would rather he didn't come back until next season and just spends time doing work in the gym to guard against those kind of injuries in 50 50s. He could do a lot of core and leg work like squats to strengthen his knee joints and just come back fitter and stronger.

In midfield, someone like Ugarte would have been ideal while still at Sporting Club and worth splashing out Antony money on, but we may have to settle for someone like Onana who's not quite top level but who can do a better job than anyone we currently have screening the defence.

We arguably need to sign two starting midfielders, and then you have someone like McTominay to play off the bench or to rotate. Not sure if Case can still perform at this level.

 

[Robbie Boy]

With all the previous managers I'd given up hope and was happy with them getting the sack. And LVG was someone I wanted us to appoint and even with him I felt he deserved the sack, eventhough he was a personal favourite of mine. But right now things may not look as rosey as some fans had envisaged, but it's the first time since Fergie retired where I honestly believe we're close to completing the system of play. And that system of play is one where we build play from the back, press high as a collective unit and have the players at the back and in midfield who have the attributes to control large space in defensive transition.

This for me is a process which requires 3 players to complete the system as far as the first 11 is concerned. We can sack him but the equation would still be the same with someone like Graham Potter who will also have to sign the same players that fit the criteria above. There has to be a reason for me to be patient with a head coach, and it's pretty clear to me that we just don't have the players who can handle transitions in a higher defensive line along with missing one player in midfield who has the technical and athletic ability to raise the level of our midfield along with Kobbie Mainoo.

Klopp had a better midfield 3 at his disposal yesterday from a technical perspective and had two CBs who are absolutely comfortable defending higher up the pitch. And those are the two big differences between the teams right now and we have the opportunity in the summer transfer window to potentially eradicate those key differences imo. Our forwards have goals in them but unlike at Liverpool or Arsenal, their players at the back and in midfield provide a much stronger foundation for their forwards to thrive both in possession and out of possession via applying the press because the guys behind them are comfortable at stepping up and closing off the space infront of them to maintain compactness. Our players at the back can't do this and it creates all sorts of issues with people then claiming we don't have a midfield, when in reality our CBs are refusing to push up, which is understandable with certain players because it would then expose them in 1v1 situations high up the pitch.

Does ten Hag and the players know that the back-line isn't stepping up to fill in the vacated space? Yes, we now have clear evidence from the game yesterday that ten Hag was seen telling the last line to push up but they kept back pedalling. I don't blame Lindelof in that regard because he's not really that type of CB, and if one player in the last line doesn't want to push up, it compromises the other players who will likely be confused as they don't know if they should stay or go, which then benefits the opponent who has players in the big gaping hole in the middle. Our front guys and advanced midfielders have done their job but have been let down by the last line who have not moved up. Below is evidence from The Athletic podcast about ten Hag gesturing to the backline to move up and Diogo Dalot/ten Hag in the clip/interview below also acknowledging that the spacing between the lines is a problem.






But this problem didn't just come about now, it's been like that since Solskjaer was manager and when he bought Maguire and sold Smalling to create a backline involving Maguire, Lindelof and De Gea as the GK, he made a massive mistake at a time when the EPL was becoming more tactical and even more transition based with many teams looking for players with pace and power along with the technical requirements on the ball. So to make up the disadvantage athletically, he went with a midfield two of McFred to protect his backline, which did help with getting 2nd and 3rd, but it was never sustainable and the system was flawed due to the personnel he bought.

There was only 4 starters in the game yesterday that were part of the new regime. Onana was a ten Hag signing with Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund all being John Murtough signings via the scouts he brought to the club since 2013, or scouts that he replaced Bout and Lawlor with who identified Hojlund. I'm not saying some of the existing players are not good enough because I do believe there's a few who are very good and will contribute going forward for us. But ten Hag is still having to utilise a lot of players that were bought by previous managers and it's not always easy to shift them if they don't want to leave.

But when you inherit a team which has no long-term central striker, no long-term GK for what is required in the game today, not one CB you want to build the team with going forward and a midfield of Fred and McTominay with Matic being past his best and Pogba leaving on a free. Then you can't just focus everything on the midfield in the first two years because signing a striker, GK, CBs, along with creating a midfield composition will take time. We need a couple of midfielders and a couple of CBs imo, and I believe those positions are absolutely in the cross hairs unlike like last season where the GK and striker positions became a priority.

When Real Madrid, Bayern or even Barcelona in the past sacked their managers, it was after providing them with all the tools necessary to succeed as far the playing personnel is concerned. So when Ancelotti or LVG was sacked from Bayern, you can't really say it was unjust with the players they had. But in the EPL the league is as strong as I've ever seen it, and I believe giving ten Hag the time and the players that are currently missing in the team via the transfer window would be sensible, and when he has those players then I believe you can pass your judgement imo because then he will have a complete squad as far as wanting to play the system he wants to implement.

This is an excellent post.

 

[stevoc]

Many on here have never followed the team.
Agenda driven nonsense.

Erik will certainly be allowed to finish his contract. He will get all the help he needs in the summer.
In fact they are already many meetings and discussions going on.

How many and what about exactly?

 

[crossy1686]

You posted that picture because you wanted to show that despite the positive result, you're still right. Granted that's an odd set of priorities to have in that moment but hey to each their own I suppose.

I responded to a poster who said something along the lines of "say something bad about Erik now, I dare you". I didn't just post a screenshot for the sake of it, and I wouldn't have posted it if people weren't acting like it was the perfect game by Ten Hag and it makes up for everything that's happened this season.

 

[crossy1686]

You're right it's more than just questioning. They're literally calling you out. Sharing that picture at that time is literally the dumbest thing to do if you wanted to present yourself as a genuine fan "objectively" analysing the game. One it's shit analysis, two it's shit timing and three it bares no relevance in cup knock out context.

And it's not one game. In 2024 we played 12 games, won 9 and drew 1, and lost 2.

You boiling it down to 1 game further cements the view that you are so hardened in hatrid of the manager you literally can't see anything else.

Absolutely no one is calling me out for anything, there's nothing to call out! But you keep thinking that if it makes you happy.

I responded to a poster who claimed everything was perfect, I didn't post unpropmted for a laugh and wouldn't have if there still weren't the same exact issues we've faced week in, week out.

Well that's fantastic then, I guess we win the 9 games won out of 12 games played in 3 months trophy. Someone call the PL and tell them we're actually top of the league on that blistering form.

And again with the last line of your post, this is what you want to believe so you can make everything "us vs them". You're in here yet again saying that people hate the manager when it's nothing to do with that and more to do with way we've been playing and the results so far this season. As I've already said, you're coming after me like I have some sort of agenda and I want us to fail and it's simply not true. Ten Hag's job is in his own hands, adapt and win more games and he'll be deservedly fine, but these basketball matches have to stop at some point if we're going to win games sustainably and stop getting so many muscle injuries.

 

[Member 58925]

I responded to a poster who said something along the lines of "say something bad about Erik now, I dare you". I didn't just post a screenshot for the sake of it, and I wouldn't have posted it if people weren't acting like it was the perfect game by Ten Hag and it makes up for everything that's happened this season.

Yes that's essentially what I said you were worried about showing everyone you're still right.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

With all the previous managers I'd given up hope and was happy with them getting the sack. And LVG was someone I wanted us to appoint and even with him I felt he deserved the sack, eventhough he was a personal favourite of mine. But right now things may not look as rosey as some fans had envisaged, but it's the first time since Fergie retired where I honestly believe we're close to completing the system of play. And that system of play is one where we build play from the back, press high as a collective unit and have the players at the back and in midfield who have the attributes to control large space in defensive transition.

This for me is a process which requires 3 players to complete the system as far as the first 11 is concerned. We can sack him but the equation would still be the same with someone like Graham Potter who will also have to sign the same players that fit the criteria above. There has to be a reason for me to be patient with a head coach, and it's pretty clear to me that we just don't have the players who can handle transitions in a higher defensive line along with missing one player in midfield who has the technical and athletic ability to raise the level of our midfield along with Kobbie Mainoo.

Klopp had a better midfield 3 at his disposal yesterday from a technical perspective and had two CBs who are absolutely comfortable defending higher up the pitch. And those are the two big differences between the teams right now and we have the opportunity in the summer transfer window to potentially eradicate those key differences imo. Our forwards have goals in them but unlike at Liverpool or Arsenal, their players at the back and in midfield provide a much stronger foundation for their forwards to thrive both in possession and out of possession via applying the press because the guys behind them are comfortable at stepping up and closing off the space infront of them to maintain compactness. Our players at the back can't do this and it creates all sorts of issues with people then claiming we don't have a midfield, when in reality our CBs are refusing to push up, which is understandable with certain players because it would then expose them in 1v1 situations high up the pitch.

Does ten Hag and the players know that the back-line isn't stepping up to fill in the vacated space? Yes, we now have clear evidence from the game yesterday that ten Hag was seen telling the last line to push up but they kept back pedalling. I don't blame Lindelof in that regard because he's not really that type of CB, and if one player in the last line doesn't want to push up, it compromises the other players who will likely be confused as they don't know if they should stay or go, which then benefits the opponent who has players in the big gaping hole in the middle. Our front guys and advanced midfielders have done their job but have been let down by the last line who have not moved up. Below is evidence from The Athletic podcast about ten Hag gesturing to the backline to move up and Diogo Dalot/ten Hag in the clip/interview below also acknowledging that the spacing between the lines is a problem.






But this problem didn't just come about now, it's been like that since Solskjaer was manager and when he bought Maguire and sold Smalling to create a backline involving Maguire, Lindelof and De Gea as the GK, he made a massive mistake at a time when the EPL was becoming more tactical and even more transition based with many teams looking for players with pace and power along with the technical requirements on the ball. So to make up the disadvantage athletically, he went with a midfield two of McFred to protect his backline, which did help with getting 2nd and 3rd, but it was never sustainable and the system was flawed due to the personnel he bought.

There was only 4 starters in the game yesterday that were part of the new regime. Onana was a ten Hag signing with Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund all being John Murtough signings via the scouts he brought to the club since 2013, or scouts that he replaced Bout and Lawlor with who identified Hojlund. I'm not saying some of the existing players are not good enough because I do believe there's a few who are very good and will contribute going forward for us. But ten Hag is still having to utilise a lot of players that were bought by previous managers and it's not always easy to shift them if they don't want to leave.

But when you inherit a team which has no long-term central striker, no long-term GK for what is required in the game today, not one CB you want to build the team with going forward and a midfield of Fred and McTominay with Matic being past his best and Pogba leaving on a free. Then you can't just focus everything on the midfield in the first two years because signing a striker, GK, CBs, along with creating a midfield composition will take time. We need a couple of midfielders and a couple of CBs imo, and I believe those positions are absolutely in the cross hairs unlike like last season where the GK and striker positions became a priority.

When Real Madrid, Bayern or even Barcelona in the past sacked their managers, it was after providing them with all the tools necessary to succeed as far the playing personnel is concerned. So when Ancelotti or LVG was sacked from Bayern, you can't really say it was unjust with the players they had. But in the EPL the league is as strong as I've ever seen it, and I believe giving ten Hag the time and the players that are currently missing in the team via the transfer window would be sensible, and when he has those players then I believe you can pass your judgement imo because then he will have a complete squad as far as wanting to play the system he wants to implement.

ten Hag has moved on from the much criticised McFred, but it hasn't always been better. I have little sympathy with regards to midfielders. Casemiro, Eriksen, Sabitzer, Mainoo, Hannibal, Amrabat and Mount have all played for him in midfield over the past 20 months. That's a lot of midfield additions/promotions. It's on him that the midfield still lacks balance. He's still searching for answers after over 100 games in charge.

It's his job as a manager to make sure that players listen to him. He's had two full pre-seasons with them, You're basically saying that some players are openly defying him. That actually makes a case that not every players respects him or is buying into what he wants. It doesn't make sense to keep using defenders who won't listen to him. Yet he's doing crazy things like playing Lindelof at LB.

As for Onana, he signed a ball playing GK and doesn't even try to utilise him properly more often than not. His passing accuracy was 51% on Sunday. He completed just 6 out of 28 long balls. Those type of stats were criticised last season when De Gea put them up. I was someone who was glad to see De Gea go, but a more modern GK hasn't made as big of an impact as many would have hoped if they're being honest. ten Hag is happy to pump it long and hope that we win the 2nd ball. Percentage football.

Your post seems to assess things from a title winning/CL winning perspective. That all of these things are necessary to become a top team. That's fine. But we're talking about United becoming a decent team to watch who regularly finish 4th at worst with ease. The standards aren't even that high. Scrapping top 4 is now seen as some sort of title to some. We're in that latter years of Wenger mindset. ten Hag should not be excused for some of the horrific results we've witnessed this season. Some all time low stuff over the past 12 months. Some of it could be understandable if it was a rough initial six months and then the improvements came. But it's actually the opposite. Apart from the opening 2 games last season, there was a sort of new manager bounce between August and January. I actually think the Ronaldo saga helped. The squad sort of rallied together. Almost as if they wanted to prove him wrong.

I personally don't think ten Hag will ever win a PL title. But he could become a manager who regularly finishes in CL places while winning the odd trophy. Kind of like what Benitez did at Liverpool between 2004-2009.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

You're massively overstating his impact on our ability to play out from the back. He's obviously better at it than De Gea and he has got better as the season has gone on (his shot stopping included) but it is absolutely nowhere near a level where you can say it's made a significant difference to our play and that's not to put the fault at his feet but he can only do so much if there's crap in front of him or a poorly executed system in front of him. Last season we had the third best joint defensive record also so you saying " we're top 4" isn't really an improvement. We're on course to concede more goals and score less goals this season than last so I'm confused as to which metric you've analysed to be able to quantify this "major impact" he's had on us.

Mate, the stats on Onana simply prove your pov wrong. In every passing, shot creating and also defensive stat Onana only has Ederson and Alisson ahead of him, often with small margins too. Maybe you expected someone who is over the City/LFC quality - a number one premier league goalkeeper but at this moment Onana is playing at a very high level and in many respects, the least of our worries. Even with his difficult first few months, he is proving to be a huge success.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...3-2024&player_id6=7956236f&p6yrfrom=2023-2024

https://www.football365.com/news/feature-premier-league-keepers-ranked-2023-24-psxg

Vs De Gea

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...3-2024&player_id2=7ba6d84e&p2yrfrom=2022-2023


He has been a huge upgrade and a success transfer for Ten Hag, for the club. For us. Why is it so difficult to admit some things really have improved?

For me, it's more difficult to swallow Bruno as a 10. I expect a 10 to score number 10 goals but Bruno isn't doing that. I think Ten Hag should not have made him captain. The mental sag mid game, that has to be down to the lack of leadership. A lot of people blame Rashford for not intervening the first LFC goal but it started near Bruno, with him looking on and not doing what a midfielder should do. But here I am, ready to admit maybe I am wrong and Ten Hag is right. He is the Man United coach and not me. Maybe we all complain too much, especially after a win. But Onana, he definitly is not the problem and did improve our play wich, going by said stats, isn't overstated at all.

 

[Irwin99]

Everytime i feel i'm nearing being EtH out something just pulls me back and I still wonder, if he got more players of the right profile then could this bizarre system of his actually work? Build around Onana, Dalot, Martinez, Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund.

Would INEOS be behind this style of football and commit to the system approach or do they just pull the plug and start again?

 

[NLunited]

Everytime i feel i'm nearing being EtH out something just pulls me back and I still wonder, if he got more players of the right profile then could this bizarre system of his actually work? Build around Onana, Dalot, Martinez, Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund.

Would INEOS be behind this style of football and commit to the system approach or do they just pull the plug and start again?

It‘s the system for me if we add fast cb‘s and a physical dm in summer.

Those are the players to build around for sure. Dalot is growing into a massive player. His confidence in progressing the ball against Pool was great to see.

The fact that Ten Hag has these players performing well is encouraging.

 

[stefan92]

Everytime i feel i'm nearing being EtH out something just pulls me back and I still wonder, if he got more players of the right profile then could this bizarre system of his actually work? Build around Onana, Dalot, Martinez, Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund.

Would INEOS be behind this style of football and commit to the system approach or do they just pull the plug and start again?

Play it with a proper high line to close the midfield gap and players who don't moan but eat their opponents alive and you have a system and team very similar to Flick's sextuple winning Bayern. The system can work, but Mainoo still needs to mature a lot, you need faster defenders, you need smarter (no Bruno) runners (no lazy Rashford) up front.

None of your current key players can be the axis of such a team and only a few young players could mature to become that axis.

After 400m spent this is disasteous squad building for that system.

 

[VP89]

Absolutely no one is calling me out for anything, there's nothing to call out! But you keep thinking that if it makes you happy.

Mate there are posts with you as a meme picture pretending to be happy and actually being sad about the FA cup win. Are you lost?

 

[Ludens the Red]

Mate, the stats on Onana simply prove your pov wrong. In every passing, shot creating and also defensive stat Onana only has Ederson and Alisson ahead of him, often with small margins too. Maybe you expected someone who is over the City/LFC quality - a number one premier league goalkeeper but at this moment Onana is playing at a very high level and in many respects, the least of our worries. Even with his difficult first few months, he is proving to be a huge success.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...3-2024&player_id6=7956236f&p6yrfrom=2023-2024

https://www.football365.com/news/feature-premier-league-keepers-ranked-2023-24-psxg

Vs De Gea

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...3-2024&player_id2=7ba6d84e&p2yrfrom=2022-2023


He has been a huge upgrade and a success transfer for Ten Hag, for the club. For us. Why is it so difficult to admit some things really have improved?

For me, it's more difficult to swallow Bruno as a 10. I expect a 10 to score number 10 goals but Bruno isn't doing that. I think Ten Hag should not have made him captain. The mental sag mid game, that has to be down to the lack of leadership. A lot of people blame Rashford for not intervening the first LFC goal but it started near Bruno, with him looking on and not doing what a midfielder should do. But here I am, ready to admit maybe I am wrong and Ten Hag is right. He is the Man United coach and not me. Maybe we all complain too much, especially after a win. But Onana, he definitly is not the problem and did improve our play wich, going by said stats, isn't overstated at all.

You’ve missed the point to be honest. The simple question to ask as I asked before is has it made a significant difference to our play? Can the impact be quantified in an area where we’ve improved as a team? Scoring? Creating chances? Ball possession? Defensively? The answer is no because Onana is a goalkeeper. The rest of our team falls too far below in standard for Onana’s improvement when compared to degea for it to be able to be significantly impactful. Which goes back to me saying spending 50 odd million on a keeper shouldn’t have been a priority. You get a cheaper keeper who can do an equal job and sign some decent defenders/midfielders. We didn’t do that.

Secondly you’ve sent me data that shows Onana having the lowest percentage for completed passes compared to every other keeper you’ve selected . But then simultaneously claim only Alisson and Ederson are ahead of him for passes…..

You mention ‘shot creating’ and ‘defensive action’. Theres basically no data for defensive actions. And for the one area in the breakdown that there is there is for clearances and the difference between keepers is negligible.
Shot creation numbers are also at 10,5,2 and 3. This is a very low number.
Dunno if you posted that thinking I wouldn’t read it but it’s a pretty terrible job you’ve done of trying to make a point.

 

[Irwin99]

Play it with a proper high line to close the midfield gap and players who don't moan but eat their opponents alive and you have a system and team very similar to Flick's sextuple winning Bayern. The system can work, but Mainoo still needs to mature a lot, you need faster defenders, you need smarter (no Bruno) runners (no lazy Rashford) up front.

None of your current key players can be the axis of such a team and only a few young players could mature to become that axis.

After 400m spent this is disasteous squad building for that system.

The Antony and Casemiro signings are very strange if you think about it but some are looking more promising: I think Hojlund and Onana are very good for that system and the emergence of Garnacho is another who just seems to suit it. I also think the system could carry some players who aren't the quickest but have great technical qualities like Mainoo and Martinez for instance but it's essential you get a quick player partnering them.

You're probably right about some of the key players but if you look at the core there's something you can build on:

Onana
Dalot New CB Martinez New LB
New DM Mainoo
Mount/Bruno
New LW Hojlund Garnacho ​

I doubt Rashford is going anywhere soon so you'd have to put him in there but it doesn't look that far away from being workable provided we buy some players who are actually physically strong and technical. Squad depth is yet another problem though.

 

[redshaw]

Thing with ETH is he wasn't trusting the club which is fair, he gave the club a roasting about the recruitment before joining but has done a poor job himself and has been tasked to come up with players quickly with limited knowledge of the market while working with a new system. LVG suffered a similar thing and hastily bought except there was nothing in place.

ETH would've been pushing for more backing after those two defeats, he has to understand how paying 85m impacts possible striker options and leaves you short and we already had a 72 million pound player that got marginalized with Antony's arrival. Club is hugely at fault as well, it's mess right through

I believe ETH is a good coach and have said before his win ratio has been impressive last season and even this. He's been handicapped and handicapped himself but managed to keep us relatively high with much fewer goals, he's been a results man in a relative sense and got to two finals last year and looking like another.

He's come into a chaotic club and dealt with a lot. Before he came I said it's vital he is supported as he can't do it all. He has the right ideas but needs help to find those De Jong alternatives and remove some players and educate others. We now have a new regime in place again after just recently having one in to fix the Woodward era with a lot of uncertainty while's he been here. The club may be stable enough for him to start if he still wants to be here, it could be too big a job for him personality wise but I feel he is growing and players that got jaded after that good run are seeing what he wants to do.

What I like about him is he's bold (not bald) and has blooded the young players.

Last season Martinez, Case and Rashford were hugely important. Martinez is one of the few ball players we have and can actually help a lot, Case sadly nothing like his 6 months hot spell and questionable buy at the price.

 

[bosnian_red]

Barring a collapse in the end of the season, I think this weekend has mostly got him next season. There's a ton of changes happening at the club, people have to wait for their gardening leave to be over so by the time that's all settled, it'll be well into next season. Not a whole lot of sense to get rid among all of that when the squad still is on his side and there are signs of life. Also add to that a lot of unknowns around all the options where you aren't sure either way, might as well give it another year (also helps financially with FFP).

Personally, my main concerns rest in his off the ball/defensive coaching which I'm not sure if he is capable of implementing to the level of Pep, Arteta, klopp. That and probably set pieces, but that one should be easy enough to address by just hiring the right set piece coach. Defensive coaching... Let's hope that the right signings can cover up a lot of those inadequacies or he can adapt the system more. I know our scoring record is shit this season but honestly, since the new year I think our attack is fine. Just need to learn to control games a bit more but that can be the next step. But as of today, and yeah largely influenced by this weekend which was huge for him, bit there would be too much doubt/unrest and feeling that it's the wrong call if he's sacked after what will likely be an fa cup final.

 

[Plant0x84]

There’s nothing weird about the analogy. Why do United fans come here if not to be part of the community? Part of being in a community is having self regulation, that includes telling the negative f**cks to give it a rest.

85% of the time I leave them to it , I stay away from here like alit of other posters. So I won’t apologise for dipping my toes in for a few days. So 85% of the time the whiney gits can go wild, but for the other time I will challange their bullsh*t.

In terms of ETH In/out, there are fans on both sides who are OTT. The fact you only acknowledge ETH in fans (as you call them) confirms your stance on that. But there’s plenty of ETH not sure fans who have to suffer the same bullsh*t from ETH out fans who have zero objectivity and will only argue against him.

Your post also lies a lot. I didn’t say people shouldn’t post their opinion, I said they can take a break from repeating an opinion everyone knows.

Anytime after the Liverpool game on Sunday was not one to go into a “well this changes nothing” type discussion. You can f**k off if you think that’s the time to start dissecting the season critically. If you can’t enjoy that then why bother being a fan. A fan should live for those matches and those moments.

Id say it’s partially an online thing where people enjoy being angry. And not just that, they take a strong position “that player/manager is not good enough” and the only thing they can do is whinge and look for all the negative things to justify their stance.

Im just calling them out. They are gonna keep posting and whining, nothing I say will change them so don’t lie and pretend Im expecting them to change because I posted anything. I’m just venting , kind of like they are, but I will try and move on instead of coming in here and relentlessly whine even when things have gone well.

I LOVE this post. Great stuff, somebody give this man a like!

 

[Member 58925]

He's been very, very erratic in the transfer market, but with Dalot improving and with Lisandro able to play the ball forward from defence, the way he wants to play becomes much more coherent. We desperately need a genuine sitting midfielder because it's clear that Casemiro doesn't have the legs for that role and Mainoo is better higher up the pitch. If you look at Liverpool, City, and Arsenal, the workrate of their midfields is way beyond what we get through with any combination of players. That's partly why there's often space to attack in between the two defensive lines because most of our midfielders naturally push forward and lack positional sense. Casemiro is one exception but his workrate has really diminished this year. I suppose that Amrabat was supposed to fill that role and rotate with Case but his loan Erik has clearly identified the wrong player, there.

Lisandro is so vital to how he wants us to play I would rather he didn't come back until next season and just spends time doing work in the gym to guard against those kind of injuries in 50 50s. He could do a lot of core and leg work like squats to strengthen his knee joints and just come back fitter and stronger.

In midfield, someone like Ugarte would have been ideal while still at Sporting Club and worth splashing out Antony money on, but we may have to settle for someone like Onana who's not quite top level but who can do a better job than anyone we currently have screening the defence.

We arguably need to sign two starting midfielders, and then you have someone like McTominay to play off the bench or to rotate. Not sure if Case can still perform at this level.

Last season a very strong case could have been made that Casemiro was one of the 2-3 players we can least afford to be without. The fact that in the very next season he's an absolute shell of his former self, whether it's due to injuries or something else, has been a huge problem.

 

[stefan92]

The Antony and Casemiro signings are very strange if you think about it but some are looking more promising: I think Hojlund and Onana are very good for that system and the emergence of Garnacho is another who just seems to suit it. I also think the system could carry some players who aren't the quickest but have great technical qualities like Mainoo and Martinez for instance but it's essential you get a quick player partnering them.

You're probably right about some of the key players but if you look at the core there's something you can build on:

Onana
Dalot New CB Martinez New LB
New DM Mainoo
Mount/Bruno
New LW Hojlund Garnacho ​

I doubt Rashford is going anywhere soon so you'd have to put him in there but it doesn't look that far away from being workable provided we buy some players who are actually physically strong and technical. Squad depth is yet another problem though.

I agree on all players you highlighted except Bruno... too often I see him pressing hard but stupid. That's something you can't afford in a 4141 like ETH wants to use.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Again with Martinez, its just basic physics man. It's not really an argument to be had. If we're playing a high line against Bournemouth and Lewis Cook plays a ball over the top to Dominik Solanke. Solanke is going to out strength and outrun Martinez 99/100 over 50-100 metres because he is bigger, faster and taller than Martinez. Nothing to do with ability, just physics.


You're making a fatal mistake there with the Martinez comment, in that you're using what he did at Ajax as a barometer. You can almost completely ignore that. He is playing against forward players on a different stratosphere to that which he played at in the Dutch league. He would be exposed like you wouldn't believe in this league, again through no fault of his own, just pure physics. See Solanke above…


You're massively overstating his impact on our ability to play out from the back. He's obviously better at it than De Gea and he has got better as the season has gone on (his shot stopping included) but it is absolutely nowhere near a level where you can say it's made a significant difference to our play and that's not to put the fault at his feet but he can only do so much if there's crap in front of him or a poorly executed system in front of him. Last season we had the third best joint defensive record also so you saying " we're top 4" isn't really an improvement. We're on course to concede more goals and score less goals this season than last so I'm confused as to which metric you've analysed to be able to quantify this "major impact" he's had on us.

I won’t comment on everything you’ve said so I’ve selected the bits I disagree with most.

1. It’s not just basic physics, but also I’m sure with such outstanding understanding of physics you’d get the idea of centres of gravity/mass and how someone smaller can use that to their advantage. Please provide evidence of Martinez being exposed by balls over the top. Surely he’s played enough for you to find these examples as “99/100” times he’d be exposed right?
2. Ajax he played at CL level against the likes of Haaland before. I don’t remember him having a poor game given they kept a clean sheet. Haaland is arguably the most physically able striker in world football. It’s not just physics it’s positioning and timing.
3. There were several instances where Onana broke Liverpools press with his passing. I remember one such pass out wide to Lindelof at LB that split through their press and a line of a midfield too.

Found a clip of you when Amad scored

 

[Alpha 1]

This thread is toxic beyond belief. Dear God, it's never going to get any better, is it? If we win FA cup and get top 4, we'll be reading all summer how our standarts have dropped, how this is not nearly enough and how Eric should get sacked immediately.

No. All the criticism that has cone Ten Hag's way is fully deserved. One game, as brilliant as it was does not erase previous 7 months of absolutely terrible performances.

PS I'm one of those who backed Ten Hag earlier in the season and I really hope this game does bring about change for the better.

 

[Cheimoon]

Does ten Hag and the players know that the back-line isn't stepping up to fill in the vacated space? Yes, we now have clear evidence from the game yesterday that ten Hag was seen telling the last line to push up but they kept back pedalling. I don't blame Lindelof in that regard because he's not really that type of CB, and if one player in the last line doesn't want to push up, it compromises the other players who will likely be confused as they don't know if they should stay or go, which then benefits the opponent who has players in the big gaping hole in the middle. Our front guys and advanced midfielders have done their job but have been let down by the last line who have not moved up. Below is evidence from The Athletic podcast about ten Hag gesturing to the backline to move up and Diogo Dalot/ten Hag in the clip/interview below also acknowledging that the spacing between the lines is a problem.

This bit is both encouraging (they all know what's happening) and discouraging (why aren't players moving up then?). For the latter, I wonder whether it's really a player thing: a lack of discipline and/or bravery and/or self-confidence? Or is Ten Hag not managing to coach this into his players somehow? But it seems a pretty easy thing to just explain that defenders need to stay up, and clearly Dalot gets it. So it does sound like a players issue to me - even if that sounds odd as well.