Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Alex99]

Is the context of my own posts lost on me? The context you've derived from them definitely is.

That's the second time you've asked this mate, I would have thought my last reply would give you pause for thought. What's more likely mate that I don't know what I'm thinking when I make a post or maybe, just maybe you've read a quick several word post that someone made and have assumed context that isn't there?

Reread the conversation, this time take my posts at face value and assume there's no hidden nefarious context.



By naming 8 players that I said could be good enough to be members of a title winning squad? What? Downplaying Liverpools by replying to your list of 5 with 'not many'. Again what?



This is genuinely one of the most baffling conversations I've had on here in a decade.

Listen mate, you've misinterpreted my posts, let's move on. I would rather drink a pint of Dettol than paint Weetabix teeth is any sort of positive light if I could avoid it.

Not the context of your posts, the context of the question I asked you.

Even at face value, you've been daft because you've ignored the obvious context to the question asked and somehow ended up suggesting Wan-Bissaka, Maguire and Sancho could play significant roles in a title challenging squad (which was quite literally the question asked).

It's also (obviously) not that I think you're so thick you can't keep track of your own thoughts. I'm passively suggesting you're being incredibly disingenuous in your lines of argument, which you are.

 

[stevoc]

Not the context of your posts, the context of the question I asked you.

Even at face value, you've been daft because you've ignored the obvious context to the question asked and somehow ended up suggesting Wan-Bissaka, Maguire and Sancho could play significant roles in a title challenging squad (which was quite literally the question asked).

It's also (obviously) not that I think you're so thick you can't keep track of your own thoughts. I'm passively suggesting you're being incredibly disingenuous in your lines of argument, which you are.

Ok fair enough mate, you're right you were talking about your question. It's late.

You asked a question I answered. Maguire, Sancho and Wan Bissaka are good enough to be squad players in a title winning side, I genuinely believe that, certainly circa 2022 anyway. You can disagree with that, that's fine. I didn't put too much thought into it beyond that. I've no idea how or why it's lead to this drawn out conversation that has very little to do with Erik Ten Hag.

Do you have a problem with me or accepting someone at their word? Why would I say you've misinterpreted me if it wasn't the case?

 

[croadyman]

Starting to sound from a tier 1 source he will be given a chance under new structure. I am remaining on the out train,however certainly wouldn't be wishing on us to lose games just so they have a change of heart.

 

[gajender]

Starting to sound from a tier 1 source he will be given a chance under new structure. I am remaining on the out train,however certainly wouldn't be wishing on us to lose games just so they have a change of heart.

Which ones ?

 

[croadyman]

There's no way that making Mount the first signing of the summer isn't reflective of the fact he was ETH's number 1 priority.

So much could have been done differently had we not blown so much money so early on such a dud.

Like with the Thiago saga we could have had Kim signed and sealed long before Bayern even had a sniff of him.

Yeah we wasted so much of the budget on poor quality so couldn't go all in for Min-Jae or properly tested Levy resolve for Kane

 

[croadyman]

Which ones ?

Pretty sure I have seen some tweets quoting Ornstein saying words to that effect,will say I haven't seen any articles in here though so could have it wrong.

 

[Judas]

He's not delivered what I had down as a bare minimum this season.. I just remain so unenthusiastic about another season under Ten Hag. We've just shown so little progress or reasons to believe or be excited by a long term future under him. It'll have to be an unreal summer of change for me to go into next season believing we'll see much of a difference.

 

[Alex99]

Ok fair enough mate, you're right you were talking about your question. It's late.

You asked a question I answered. Maguire, Sancho and Wan Bissaka are good enough to be squad players in a title winning side, I genuinely believe that, certainly circa 2022 anyway. You can disagree with that, that's fine. I didn't put too much thought into it beyond that. I've no idea how or why it's lead to this drawn out conversation that has very little to do with Erik Ten Hag.

Do you have a problem with me or accepting someone at their word? Why would I say you've misinterpreted me if it wasn't the case?

It led to this because you pleaded ignorance to the context about four times, and given the discussion at hand and your own posts in that discussion, it came across as a very disingenuous line of argument.

No problem with you, or taking people at their word. Just a semi-regular occurrence on here (and the internet in general) for people to argue disingenuously then start pointing to specific wording to claim they weren't.

Happy to accept it was late and you weren't looking at it properly.

 

[stevoc]

It led to this because you pleaded ignorance to the context about four times, and given the discussion at hand and your own posts in that discussion, it came across as a very disingenuous line of argument.

OK but after the 2nd or even 3rd time maybe just accept someone may not be being disingenuous and its possible you've got the wrong end of the stick?

No problem with you, or taking people at their word. Just a semi-regular occurrence on here (and the internet in general) for people to argue disingenuously then start pointing to specific wording to claim they weren't.

Happy to accept it was late and you weren't looking at it properly.

Fair enough mate.

 

[RedRover]

You can feel free to disagree with it but it's a shit analogy precisely because a CEO is literally expected to take on full control, whereas the manager of a football team isn't. A CEO is top of the pyramid, a football manager is not. Anyway, this is by the by.

As for the rest of your post, I refer you back to the point you responded to in the first place: If the level of control people believe he has is what the club granted, then he should never have been hired, which effectively pins it back on the club. After that, you can criticise him for demanding the control and his record with that control, but it still has to be caveated with "why the feck did the club give it to him?".

You don't hire someone to manage one department and then give them significant control over another department that has its own department head(s).

I don't agree with the "free-hit" comments, especially those that seem to think he not only gets this season, but the entirety of next season too, but they are an absolute minority. Most who don't want him sacked are basically only at that position because the reported shortlist of replacements contains Gareth Southgate, and I think a lot of them would be happy enough to see Ten Hag gone if we brought in someone with a more encouraging CV than Southgate's.

I don't disagree with that. I'm not defending the club for giving him that level of control. No sane fan would. The operation of the footballing side of the club has been shambolic. Given the lack of structure at the club, which most top clubs have and which the new owners want to put in place, it seems clear from the outset that he wanted, and was going to be given some degree of control. That was clearly a mistake, although it seems there was nobody else there at that point (i.e. a DoF/Sporting Director etc.) who was competent enough to do it either.

I appreciate you're not saying this, but there are some who seem to think he deserves more time because of how poor the structure around him was. If we'd seen anything like progress over this season and something developing on the pitch, even if inconsistently, I'd probably agree.

With the change in structure the club is at a potential turning point. Whatever that structure looks like, the manager will have some say in transfers, so they need to make sure it's the right man.

And I don't hold much sway in reported shortlists. So far INEOS are doing the right things - the executive hires look ambitious, plans for a new stadium are exciting. The club remains one of the biggest in the world so I think United would be a very attractive project for a lot of younger, potentially elite managers around the world.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

Reading the other threads about the rebuilding of the squad made me appreciate EtH's dealings even more. He offloaded a lot of very expensive deadwood and even if it doen''t appear at face value, this season has seen upgrades and progress. We also look good for upcoming transfer dealings.

Also, a more detailed look at our defense is actually putting us in top 4 stats. The main problem of our current status is the lack of goals. Since Garnacho and Rashford combine better with Hojlund, that is bound to improve.

EtH has us also as the only team that kept LFC from scoring this season.

Being a top flight manager at a top club like Manchester United is a lot more than just meets the eye. I'm betting INEOS sees the same.

Even if Ten Hag will be replaced, it will be done this summer unless a dramatic turn of events make us lose top 6 place.

Me, I want whats best for the club. Even if EtH goes out I want INEOS to make a good review, a good plan and some good talks. No haste decisions and certainly no haste sacking and interim caretakers. Even if the squad isn't working the best at times, a lot of players owe and respect EtH a lot.

I hope we will go on a great run the coming weeks. I hope we going to give LFC the beating they will not forget and stop Klopp's hope for the 4 prize end.

For now I remain, EtH is our best bet. I do respect others feel different. Let's give him and this squad all the backing they deserve. Even Rashford. We need him to perform. If it doesn't work out we can always go and sell him to PSG for a ton of money.

In short for the next 8 weeks: lets do this!

Today's menu: go Fulham!

 

[Berbaclass]

I think he will get a chance.

 

[AndySmith1990]

I think he will get a chance.

Not bad work if you can find it. After 2 years and no progress, here you go, have another chance pal.

Nothing screams ambition like giving multiple chances to underperforming managers and players

 

[Berbaclass]

Not bad work if you can find it. After 2 years and no progress, here you go, have another chance pal.

Nothing screams ambition like giving multiple chances to underperforming managers and players

I also think that like Ratcliffe said the environment has been wrong. If INEOS do a good job then the manager as an individual shouldn’t be that important in my view. The squad and structure and philosophy will be in place so that most managers can come in and do well. Setting the right conditions and framework is the most crucial thing right now.

 

[Remember the geese]

I also think that like Ratcliffe said the environment has been wrong. If INEOS do a good job then the manager as an individual shouldn’t be that important in my view. The squad and structure and philosophy will be in place so that most managers can come in and do well. Setting the right conditions and framework is the most crucial thing right now.

Will be all about how good a coach he is. As of now, City, Liverpool and Arsenal are playing a different sport. Still waiting for Ten Hag to show that he can coach a playing style as dominant as those three. He'll be fortunate if he gets next season.

 

[crossy1686]

How are you gonna win and control the games with these players?

And finally you arrive at the managers responsibilities. A good manager finds a way to not be under siege throughout the entire game.

 

[NLunited]

And finally you arrive at the managers responsibilities. A good manager finds a way to not be under siege throughout the entire game.

Nonsense. A good manager finds a way that his team can win the game.

The lot of you moaners can complain but not engage in any meaningful discussion of tactics.

 

[VP89]

And finally you arrive at the managers responsibilities. A good manager finds a way to not be under siege throughout the entire game.

A good manager primarily finds a way to win first.

 

[crossy1686]

Nonsense. A good manager finds a way that his team can win the game.

The lot of you moaners can complain but not engage in any meaningful discussion of tactics.

A good manager primarily finds a way to win first.

Yeah, it’s just a shame Ten Hag has lost pretty much half the games we’ve played this season. Says everything you need to know doesn’t it really. Glad we could all agree.

 

[NLunited]

Yeah, it’s just a shame Ten Hag has lost pretty much half the games we’ve played this season. Says everything you need to know doesn’t it really. Glad we could all agree.

He actually has a good win rate. It‘s just a shame we have so many injuries and such moany fans who offer nothing positive.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

My biggest issue with him is that he hasn’t been able to coach a playing style consistently, even with injuries others teams still keep to their style of play as everyone knows their role. I don’t think anyone in our midfield and forward line know their specific role and actually stick to it game after game.

if he doesn’t know yet how he wants his team to play that’s a big issue, if he does and players aren’t following it thats a another big issue. A top class manager sorts both of these issues out quickly.

 

[pocco]

Will be all about how good a coach he is. As of now, City, Liverpool and Arsenal are playing a different sport. Still waiting for Ten Hag to show that he can coach a playing style as dominant as those three. He'll be fortunate if he gets next season.

He's not on their level, it's that simple. Even the one team he supposedly created in his own way, Ajax, weren't in the same stratosphere as those clubs. He's genuinely never shown he is capable of coaching a team to those levels.

 

[crossy1686]

He actually has a good win rate. It‘s just a shame we have so many injuries and such moany fans who offer nothing positive.

Yeah it’s been a great season. We’ve been a winning machine, such a shame Martinez has been out though, imagine how great we could have been?

I often wonder why people swing from the managers nuts instead of forming their own opinions on what’s happening right in front of their eyes.

 

[Suv666]

Going into the new season with a shiny new owner and a high profile boardroom with Ten Hag in charge would be so underwhelming.

How can anyone trust him with signing the right profile of players

 

[AndySmith1990]

He actually has a good win rate. It‘s just a shame we have so many injuries and such moany fans who offer nothing positive.

With such a good win rate I'm baffled as to why we're only in 6th, and how we managed to not win enough games to finish higher than 4th in our CL group. Not sure how we failed in our defense of the league cup either, since our win rate is so impressive. But feck it, as long as that win percentage looks good there's no reason to moan

 

[Stadjer]

Going into the new season with a shiny new owner and a high profile boardroom with Ten Hag in charge would be so underwhelming.

How can anyone trust him with signing the right profile of players

What is wrong with his profile of players? Antony looks like he will be failure but Martinez, Hojlund and Onana are all fairly young players with technical ability. Mason Mount is in that same profile but has been unlucky with his injuries. Seems like the right profile to me. No old over the top (former) superstars anymore. Casemiro wasnt his first choice and players like Amrabat, Weghorst and Sabitzer are just squad player loans. Malacia is young and cheap. Looked decent and had a good game against Salah for example. Just very unlucky he is out this whole season.

Introduced youth players like Garnacho and Mainoo too. Seems like the right profile to me too.

 

[RORY65]

Going into the new season with a shiny new owner and a high profile boardroom with Ten Hag in charge would be so underwhelming.

How can anyone trust him with signing the right profile of players

I guess the plan would be that he wouldn't be signing the players. That being said everything isn't going to be in place above the manager early enough for us to have an especially successful summer anyway.

That might be the best argument to keep Ten Hag for next year, let him flail around deliberately not playing a midfield while new people above him start to restructure things and then move on next year rather than throwing a new manager into that situation.

 

[Stadjer]

With such a good win rate I'm baffled as to why we're only in 6th, and how we managed to not win enough games to finish higher than 4th in our CL group. Not sure how we failed in our defense of the league cup either, since our win rate is so impressive. But feck it, as long as that win percentage looks good there's no reason to moan

Because City, Liverpool and Arsenal are far ahead in their 'project' and just better than all other teams. With all injuries we are around Spurs and Villa level.. maybe even slightly lower if you look at the quality of players that have played a lot of games this year.

 

[Shark]

With such a good win rate I'm baffled as to why we're only in 6th, and how we managed to not win enough games to finish higher than 4th in our CL group. Not sure how we failed in our defense of the league cup either, since our win rate is so impressive. But feck it, as long as that win percentage looks good there's no reason to moan

We seem to lose a game almost every second weekend, aside from that recent run of five or so games, but things are looking fairly back to normal business now.

 

[Leftback99]

6th best win % in the league and we're... 6th, fancy that.

Why is it used by his defenders like it has big significance?

 

[Suv666]

What is wrong with his profile of players? Antony looks like he will be failure but Martinez, Hojlund and Onana are all fairly young players with technical ability. Mason Mount is in that same profile but has been unlucky with his injuries. Seems like the right profile to me. No old over the top (former) superstars anymore. Casemiro wasnt his first choice and players like Amrabat, Weghorst and Sabitzer are just squad player loans. Malacia is young and cheap. Looked decent and had a good game against Salah for example. Just very unlucky he is out this whole season.

Introduced youth players like Garnacho and Mainoo too. Seems like the right profile to me too.

We could have easily gone a season or two with DDG in goal, that money could have been used for bringing in a midfielder or an attacker. Not to mention how crap he’s been. The signing made us worse in the GK department and also diverted funds away from weak areas. How can anyone consider it a success!

How is Mount the right profile he doesn’t even fit in the squad?
Case-Bruno-Mount midfield was a spectacular failure, he was riding the bench when he was fit. Have people forgotten about that?

Again with Malacia, he’s been mediocre at best. Multiple games, he’s been the weak spot in defence. A single good game doesn’t make a signing a success.

If your standards are so low that you reckon Malacia, Mount and Onana are successful signings then yeah fair.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

My biggest issue with him is that he hasn’t been able to coach a playing style consistently, even with injuries others teams still keep to their style of play as everyone knows their role. I don’t think anyone in our midfield and forward line know their specific role and actually stick to it game after game.

if he doesn’t know yet how he wants his team to play that’s a big issue, if he does and players aren’t following it thats a another big issue. A top class manager sorts both of these issues out quickly.

Yet for me vs Ole playing 3-5-2, 4-4-2, 3-4-3, 5-3-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-2-2-1 and everything in between, its now a steady 4-2-3-1 with emphasis on shifting to 4-1-4-1 when its possible. Only City had a much different tactic.

And wasn't Klopp hailed a genius for changing tactics? Putting Trent Arnold as roving midfield right back?

On top of that I don't think sending Maguire with the same instructions as say Varane or Lindelof is wise. the non regulars are non regulars for a reason, they have various limitations and you have to set up accordingly.

I do think changing away from first season tactics to Onana being starting point was a bit difficult in the first few months. I also think Ten Hag could'v changed set up once we got ahead vs that Turkish club in de CL game. We were ahead, shut up shop was needed but he kept subbing with attackers iirc. But overall, EtHs United plays a much more stable and clear course system than we did the previous managers. And I love the way he has Shaw and Dalot playing almost as wing forwards. Pre-season Shaw and that 4-1-4-1 including Mount showed at times, some mad attacking, huge overloading. Imo the style has been consistent, the aim was away from De Gea forced build up. Onana has picked it up finally and only the many injuries seem to hold us back a lot.

 

[Fortitude]

Hurts my heart to watch this and hear of all levels of competency you want in a coach being spouted off like a reel sheet of what people have been saying in this thread. The final blow comes just a bit after where I've timestamped 13:21, to be precise; like a broad sword disconnecting a head from its neck. It's the bottom line. Doesn't matter who delivers it, but there's so much more gravitas when someone like this guy says it so certainly.

 

[VP89]

Yeah, it’s just a shame Ten Hag has lost pretty much half the games we’ve played this season. Says everything you need to know doesn’t it really. Glad we could all agree.

Turned it around in a decent way in 2024 though. Overall win % as a coach still more than respectable.

Or do you prefer to ignore all of last season and only consider this without any context. Which sure, fits your narrative. It's just riddled with flaws that's all.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

We could have easily gone a season or two with DDG in goal, that money could have been used for bringing in a midfielder or an attacker. Not to mention how crap he’s been. The signing made us worse in the GK department and also diverted funds away from weak areas. How can anyone consider it a success!

How is Mount the right profile he doesn’t even fit in the squad?
Case-Bruno-Mount midfield was a spectacular failure, he was riding the bench when he was fit. Have people forgotten about that?

Again with Malacia, he’s been mediocre at best. Multiple games, he’s been the weak spot in defence. A single good game doesn’t make a signing a success.

If your standards are so low that you reckon Malacia, Mount and Onana are successful signings then yeah fair.

Surely you don’t really believe that?
If we’d have resigned DDG that would be as damning of ETH as signing Antony, he was done.

Even if we conclude that the Mount-Fernandes-Casemiro midfield wasn’t a success that doesn’t mean Mount can’t still be a good signing going forward and Malacia is a weird transfer to criticize. He was bought as a cheap deputy for Shaw and performed that duty well enough until whatevers happened to him happened.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

We could have easily gone a season or two with DDG in goal, that money could have been used for bringing in a midfielder or an attacker. Not to mention how crap he’s been. The signing made us worse in the GK department and also diverted funds away from weak areas. How can anyone consider it a success!

I don't think there's any scenario where we'd be able to keep DDG for just one or two seasons. The agreed contract that was pulled was, I believe, for four years, at a wage level that would've made him unsellable. Realistically, the options were get rid or be stuck with him for another four years. Whether or not Onana is the right replacement (jury is still out), releasing DDG was 100% the correct decision.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Do we have our pitchforks ready for this time tomorrow when United are already 3-0 down and down to 10 men?

 

[Stadjer]

We could have easily gone a season or two with DDG in goal, that money could have been used for bringing in a midfielder or an attacker. Not to mention how crap he’s been. The signing made us worse in the GK department and also diverted funds away from weak areas. How can anyone consider it a success!

How is Mount the right profile he doesn’t even fit in the squad?
Case-Bruno-Mount midfield was a spectacular failure, he was riding the bench when he was fit. Have people forgotten about that?

Again with Malacia, he’s been mediocre at best. Multiple games, he’s been the weak spot in defence. A single good game doesn’t make a signing a success.

If your standards are so low that you reckon Malacia, Mount and Onana are successful signings then yeah fair.

No, we couldnt go with DDG in goal. Did you actually watch him play last season or do you still remember those rose tinted glory days of DDG? Onana is a better keeper than DDG was last season. Not to mention that those two seasons with DDG in goal would have cost an arm and a leg in wages for a keeper who did not deserve those wages anymore. Just look at his performance in the very last game DDG played for Manchester United.

Mount has hardly been fit. Players need some time to adapt. Those few games dont decide if a player is a failure or not.

Malacia was fine. What were you expecting from a young and fairly cheap player from the Eredivisie? To take Shaw (when fit one of the better LBs in the league) his spot? Malacia gave Shaw some competition and Shaw started to play better. Most games Malacia did play he was fine. He had a few games were he wasnt great but also some where he was good. A single bad game doesnt make a signing a failure. He came as a squad player with potential to be more. Until his injury he was fine in that role.

Ofcourse your post had to end with a standard and boring 'standards' post. In case you havent noticed, this isnt a Sir Alex Ferguson managed Manchester United with decades of succes. This is a club without major succes since SAF retired. A club that has been mismanaged for years and years. Quite a few sigings need some time to adapt to the league and new club. Only a few players just directly slot into a new team and are great. Haaland is an example of that but Kovacic and Nunes would then be considered low standard failure for Manchester City. Players need some time to adapt.

 

[NLunited]

With such a good win rate I'm baffled as to why we're only in 6th, and how we managed to not win enough games to finish higher than 4th in our CL group. Not sure how we failed in our defense of the league cup either, since our win rate is so impressive. But feck it, as long as that win percentage looks good there's no reason to moan

There‘s a difference between acknowledging things are shiit and moaning. The win ratio is the last thing you can criticize Ten Hag for though.

 

[crossy1686]

Turned it around in a decent way in 2024 though. Overall win % as a coach still more than respectable.

Or do you prefer to ignore all of last season and only consider this without any context. Which sure, fits your narrative. It's just riddled with flaws that's all.

Last season was last season, this isn’t even a debating point. I mean why even stop there if we’re applying the past to today?

How about I choose to focus on this season, you choose to focus on last season and ignore this season and we’ll see what happens next? I have the feeling that your argument is the one that’s flawed unfortunately.