Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Crimson King]

Part of me fears that Jim wants an English manager, in which case we'd have to consider Southgate and Potter. I reckon the Euros will be the former's last tournament (win or lose), and I reckon Jim will sound him out in advance if he really wants him. Am hoping Potter isn't on the radar because IMO he needs to prove himself at a big club first.

FTR I can see Jim going for a foreign manager, possibly Tuchel or Nagelsman.

I just don't think that fits in with all the 'best in class' talk the INEOS PR have been putting out. Regardless of what you think of Southgate as the England manager, he last managed a club side in 2006. So much has changed since then, I think it would take way too long for him to adapt back to that environment. Even if he won the Euros, which is the only way I can see him getting a top job when his time with England is over, it would still be a big leap.

I don't want Potter either, but that would at least make sense in terms of starting off the new 'project', so to speak. He knows he can work with Ashworth, and will probably just be expected to coach the team rather than recruit. I think ultimately he won't be good enough (not enough personality and charisma, which I really think you need to succeed at the biggest clubs) but he might be a good 'interim' while we wait for the next guy to come along, or become available.

Too many clubs will be looking for a new manager this summer, so it's a really bad time to be making this change, especially with no UCL on offer.

 

[hobbers]

Hiring Southgate would at least let us all abandon all hope of Ineos doing anything useful straight away.

If they're going to be as clueless as the previous clowns best they show their hand quickly.

 

[santeria13]

The constant reference to injuries and how unlucky we are baffles me. According to this article, we are like 6th in terms of teams who have suffered most injuries, and not that far ahead of the teams below us either.

https://www.givemesport.com/every-premier-league-team-ranked-injuries-suffered/

It's just a poor excuse. We've also looked abysmal since the Capital one win last year, with most of our full squad for a good portion of that period. Is injuries still the excuse for getting consistently outplayed by teams like Fulham, Bournemouth, Luton etc?

We've genuinely had around 2-3 good performances in the last 30 or so. Is there any excuse that can really make up for that?

 

[crossy1686]

Ten Hag does not want us to defend deep. The squad defenders are retreating deep because they aren't comfortable stepping out into a high line.

At no point in his career up until now has ten hag played a deep defence with a high press, so this idea that this is happening by design is stone cold bollocks.

Then why doesn’t he coach them to be comfortable with a high line? So you’re essentially saying he’s not doing his job by allowing this to happen. Glad you’re finally coming to the understanding that he's at fault for what’s happening on the pitch.

 

[Sarni]

Extremely unlucky would probably be more accurate.

He's unlucky in the same sense that I'm unlucky to not be talented enough to be a professional footballer capable of playing for a Premier League team.

There's obviously an element of luck in possessing or not possessing skills / knowledge to succeed in certain positions though, so in a way it is correct.

 

[Sarni]

Hiring Southgate would at least let us all abandon all hope of Ineos doing anything useful straight away.

If they're going to be as clueless as the previous clowns best they show their hand quickly.

Southgate links, heh, there are very, very few managers that I'd be fully confident would do a worse job than Ten Hag, but he's definitely one of them.

 

[flameinthesun]

If you watch Ajax in that 2019 system you will see some of the very same gaps we see in the midfield. The difference is that De Jong thrived with all that space as he could beat a press and drive through it on his own and Schone would at the right times provide an option for him. There are loads of occasions where you would see De Jong, De Ligt, Blind and a fullback almost on their own at the the back with Schone and VDB pushed up in the 8 positions with Schone then dropping back at the right moments.

 

[Sarni]

The constant reference to injuries and how unlucky we are baffles me. According to this article, we are like 6th in terms of teams who have suffered most injuries, and not that far ahead of the teams below us either.

https://www.givemesport.com/every-premier-league-team-ranked-injuries-suffered/

It's just a poor excuse. We've also looked abysmal since the Capital one win last year, with most of our full squad for a good portion of that period. Is injuries still the excuse for getting consistently outplayed by teams like Fulham, Bournemouth, Luton etc?

We've genuinely had around 2-3 good performances in the last 30 or so. Is there any excuse that can really make up for that?

Feels fair looking at that list. Newcastle's have been ridiculous, Brighton has also missed loads of players consistently, Brentford have lost several players to long term injuries (Mbeumo, Henry, others) and I always perceived us as being somewhat close to Tottenham. Surprised not to see Villa higher up the list as they've lost Mings and Buendia for season but I guess they've been pretty fine otherwise.

Our injuries have been bad because they've been largely restricted to our backline and defensive midfielders, but it's not really the worst injury crisis in the history of football (which is actually what some have suggested).

 

[AlexUTD]

"INEOS are so impressed with the Ten Hag`s signings, especially the Antony signing. They want to offer him the Head of Recruitment role."

 

[RedSky]

We've genuinely had around 2-3 good performances in the last 30 or so. Is there any excuse that can really make up for that?

We've only won 6 league games from 41 by a 2 goal + margin. Our bad form has been consistent since the League Cup. We're Manchester United, we're meant to be a top team and yet we play like Tottenham in the 90s.

 

[Maticmaker]

Too many clubs will be looking for a new manager this summer, so it's a really bad time to be making this change, especially with no UCL on offer.

I agree, I suspect INEOS already knows what it's getting, or the best it can expect from ETH. I think Erik will last this season out and maybe next as well. This won't please a lot of fans and I accept he has problems with his management of players and some of his tactics (midfleld 2) are puzzling, but until Sir Jim can apply enough 'latent heat' at senior management level to melt the footballing permafrost that the Glazers have surround us with over the last 10 years, there isn't much choice.

As you have pointed out a few clubs are after the top guys in the next year or so, and most can offer a softer landing with them than Sir Jim can with us, at the moment. Perhaps what INEOS will do is a draw up a 'runners and riders' i.e. a list of younger managers who are catching the eye now and watch their development for the next couple of years, keep watching/measuring their progress, working out what they have to do to sweeten any pot they may decide to offer in say 2 years time.

I doubt it's going to be a fast turnaround, mores the pity!

 

[Sarni]

I agree, I suspect INEOS already knows what it's getting, or the the best it can expect from ETH. I think Erik will last this season out and maybe next as well. This won't please a lot of fans and I accept he has problems with his management of players and some of his tactics (midfleld 2) are puzzling, but until Sir Jim can apply enough 'latent heat' at senior management level to melt the footballing permafrost that the Glazers have surround us with over the last 10 years, there isn't much choice.

As you have pointed out a few clubs are after the top guys in the next year or so, and most can offer a softer landing with them than Sir Jim can with us, at the moment. Perhaps what INEOS will do is a draw up a 'runners and riders' i.e. a list of younger managers who are catching the eye now and watch their development for the next couple of years, keep watching/measuring their progress, working out what they have to do to sweeten any pot they may decide to offer in say 2 years time.

I doubt its going to be a fast turnaround, mores the pity!

All the noises around INEOS takeover were that they want this transition to take 3 years. If we are after persisting with ETH for several years until we see the right manager available, Ratcliffe might be approaching 80 or be already dead by the time we finally make up our minds.

I don't think we are just going to wait for the sake of it, I think they will have a series of meetings with ETH where he will lay out his plan - which he seems to actually be quite good at - and they will give him a new contract with guarantees and some control over transfers (not full like now but still substantial), fully believing he can do the job.

 

[Maticmaker]

Ratcliffe might be approaching 80 or be already dead by the time we finally make up our minds.

Heh... steady on I'm in that bracket now...but still hoping to see a third era of magnificence emerging for United in my lifetime...

 

[redcucumber]

We've only won 6 league games from 41 by a 2 goal + margin. Our bad form has been consistent since the League Cup. We're Manchester United, we're meant to be a top team and yet we play like Tottenham in the 90s.

Wow. That's quite staggering.

 

[RedRover]

Would it not be wise to adapt tactically to deal with this rather than just standing there wondering why we’re getting chinned by Bournemouth?

This. Good managers make good decisions consistently and can adapt.

 

[VP89]

Then why doesn’t he coach them to be comfortable with a high line? So you’re essentially saying he’s not doing his job by allowing this to happen. Glad you’re finally coming to the understanding that he's at fault for what’s happening on the pitch.

Why are you making up what I'm saying?

You're asking why he's not coaching Lindelof at LB and 38 year old Evans to have a high line? Il let you answer that yourself.

 

[Offsideagain]

Ineos will not panic or rush things but I reckon ETH will claim he's not had a first choice 11 this season. But then again, he is responsible for buying some overpriced dross that we can't get rid of quickly. I think Ineos will start by trimming down the number of people at the club through redundancies to save some cash and then perhaps at the end of the season ditch ETH for Zindane. If we get battered on Saturday then all bets are off especially if ETH does another 'We played well and could have won' post match interview.

 

[Irwin99]

I'd sooner stick with EtH than have Southgate as manager (and i don't care if he wins the Euros with a ridiculously talented England team, his club CV is awful)

 

[crossy1686]

Why are you making up what I'm saying?

You're asking why he's not coaching Lindelof at LB and 38 year old Evans to have a high line? Il let you answer that yourself.

Are they incapable of learning? We must have conference level players in our team if that's the case.

 

[VP89]

Are they incapable of learning? We must have conference level players in our team if that's the case.

They don't have the physical qualities to sustain a high line.

 

[Daydreamer]

So much inconsistency with what you say. United's injuries are a "myth" but Arsenal's is threadbare, even if we assume they had the same level of defensive crisis (?!)
I'll ask again - do you have evidence to support you had back ups to the back ups and then those back ups injured? We are playing a 38 year old at CB and a CB at Left Back. As previously shown you were also able to call upon Cambell and Lauren for 20+ PL apps in that season, which is why I'm asking for the data.

And as I said, even if we do accept that the injuries are similar domestically, we'd be on course for roughly the same points as you did. So the point being made by the opposition is lost all the same.

I never said that United’s injury crisis was a “myth”. I said that it had taken on mythological status. Which it has.

It wasn’t even me that brought up Arsenal 05/06 team, I just pointed out that we had to put out that back line for nearly half a season. You asked for “data”, which you then found yourself and proceeded to ignore because it doesn’t say what you want it to say.

You keep asking about backups of backups, as if that is some universally agreed, yardstick, but yes, we did have backups of backups playing. This was in the years before having 8 first team defenders was a thing. Our 1st choice back line was:

Cole / Campbell / Toure / Lauren

Toure was our 2nd choice RB, so when we had Cole, Campbell and Toure were injured for months on end, we were forced to play Flamini in defence. Kinda like Amrabat. But for a more extended period of time. Against tougher opposition.

Arsenal finished 4th and made it to the CL Final where fell narrowly short against one of the greatest teams of all time playing with 10 men. If you think that is same as United’s performances this season, then it’s kinda hard to take what you’re saying seriously.

All of this is to say that United have indeed had injuries, but they are not the primary reason for conceding the number of chances that they do. They haven’t even had the worst injury crisis in the league this season, let alone looking back through time.

But as I said, I think we’re going round in circles.

 

[AltiUn]

I’m not being facetious, it literally would have been better to buy nobody at all. By the end of the season, Antony will have cost United over £100m in transfer fee and wages. Imagine United had just banked the money and played an academy player. Even if Garnacho wasn’t ready, Elanga was (12 G/A vs 0 G/A from Antony this season, just for the record).

Spot fecking on.

 

[AltiUn]

The constant reference to injuries and how unlucky we are baffles me. According to this article, we are like 6th in terms of teams who have suffered most injuries, and not that far ahead of the teams below us either.

https://www.givemesport.com/every-premier-league-team-ranked-injuries-suffered/

It's just a poor excuse. We've also looked abysmal since the Capital one win last year, with most of our full squad for a good portion of that period. Is injuries still the excuse for getting consistently outplayed by teams like Fulham, Bournemouth, Luton etc?

We've genuinely had around 2-3 good performances in the last 30 or so. Is there any excuse that can really make up for that?

That's objectively a lot of injuries, just because other clubs have had injuries as well does not mean we haven't had bad injury issues.

Our problem is that even if we had everyone fit the issues are with the system, not with the personnel although with everyone fit we might have picked up more points.

 

[DSG]

Good look into why we're so open. Spoiler: Ten Hag wants to play this way.

Great video that describes my feeling every time I watch us play.

There are certain Caf members that have taken a position on Ten Hag island and refuse to cede a millimeter of ground. It’s a nonstop litany of excuses from them: It’s the Glazers fault, it’s the lack of scouting, it’s the injuries, it’s the shite players, or my favorite, the players are downing tools haha. These people cannot admit when they are wrong and must attack those of us that can genuinely see that Ten Hag is not going to work out. To them I say, GROW UP! It’s okay to be wrong about something, especially when the data is overwhelming.

It comes down to this: Ten Hag has developed a tactical strategy that is an absolute mess for the PL… maybe it worked in the Eredivise when he had 3x the spending power of the next club, but it doesn’t work here. The fact that we’ve had 100 matches and he’s still stubborn enough to insist upon it is troubling.

‘Look, he’s a purist. This, in itself, is not a problem and there are plenty of managers that are purists, Klopp and Pep among them. But the problem is that he is a purist that has really bad, some would say impossible to execute tactics.

I’m not even sure why this is a discussion anymore… This season has been a disaster. How can this guy keep his job and why would we want him to anyhow?

 

[VP89]

It's true and neither of these systems had much in common. Your point would be relevant if these two approaches were linked but they weren't.

The premise of my point was never about linking the styles. It was more that Ten Hag isn't a coach that would be so daft as to leave a big gap between midfield and defence. I'm quite sure no manager actively does this by design.

To understand my point you can answer this question, what makes you think that a manager that used two completely different approaches in his last two clubs wouldn't use a completely different approach for the third? As I said your point would make a lot of sense if Utrecth and Ajax played similarly or even had a little bit in common but they didn't.

His Ajax team played a high possession game with high press, even then he had several big alterations one where the width almost exclusively provided by fullbacks and an other where fullbacks added numbers inside and the wingers remained wide, these alteration came from the fact that Overmars brought totally different players during the ETH's tenure and the other alteration was the posseesion and line height approach which was completely different in the CL.

His Utrecht team was a counter attacking team with low possession, he mid to low block and often little widtch(from memory).

There is no particular reason to claim that he wouldn't implement a third approach that isn't based on Utrech or Ajax since these two approaches were quite obviously dissimilar.

You are insinuating that in this third system, he is intending to create a big gap between the defensive line and the midfield.

I am stating this is not the intended method but actually a symptom of our squad players being in capable to carry out the tactics properly. As @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber correctly stated before, our squad players are completely different profiles to the first choice players. In defence we are playing 3/4 slow and laborious players who may be experienced and smart in positioning within the box, but are poor/very poor in proactively building out from the back, having any recovery pace and being able to close down half spaces quickly enough. Ten hag himself has expressed frustration with both defence and midfield in failing to cover half spaces in key transitions.

If we had a less injury plagued defence I do not think our defence is near as deep as it was. Ten Hag's ideal approach is to have the defenders step out, but he doesn't have the squad quality to do this.

 

[JPRouve]

The premise of my point was never about linking the styles. It was more that Ten Hag isn't a coach that would be so daft as to leave a big gap between midfield and defence. I'm quite sure no manager actively does this by design.

You are insinuating that in this third system, he is intending to create a big gap between the defensive line and the midfield.

I am stating this is not the intended method but actually a symptom of our squad players being in capable to carry out the tactics properly. As @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber correctly stated before, our squad players are completely different profiles to the first choice players. In defence we are playing 3/4 slow and laborious players who may be experienced and smart in positioning within the box, but are poor/very poor in proactively building out from the back, having any recovery pace and being able to close down half spaces quickly enough. Ten hag himself has expressed frustration with both defence and midfield in failing to cover half spaces in key transitions.

If we had a less injury plagued defence I do not think our defence is near as deep as it was. Ten Hag's ideal approach is to have the defenders step out, but he doesn't have the squad quality to do this.

No. I'm just saying that you cannot state what you write in the following paragraph based on what ETH did in the past because he used vastly different systems in both cases. If I go right one time, go left an other time, you can't state that I won't go forward or backward based on my previous decisions.

 

[VP89]

No. I'm just saying that you cannot state what you write in the following paragraph based on what ETH did in the past because he used vastly different systems in both cases. If I go right one time, go left an other time, you can't state that I won't go forward or backward based on my previous decisions.

If going forward is driving off a cliff, then it's fair to assume you won't.

Having a huge gap between defence and midfield is not something managers actively pursue for a reason. I don't think Ten Hag is trying to actually execute that system for us, unless he's looking to get sacked.

 

[Abhinav]

The premise of my point was never about linking the styles. It was more that Ten Hag isn't a coach that would be so daft as to leave a big gap between midfield and defence. I'm quite sure no manager actively does this by design.

You are insinuating that in this third system, he is intending to create a big gap between the defensive line and the midfield.

I am stating this is not the intended method but actually a symptom of our squad players being in capable to carry out the tactics properly. As @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber correctly stated before, our squad players are completely different profiles to the first choice players. In defence we are playing 3/4 slow and laborious players who may be experienced and smart in positioning within the box, but are poor/very poor in proactively building out from the back, having any recovery pace and being able to close down half spaces quickly enough. Ten hag himself has expressed frustration with both defence and midfield in failing to cover half spaces in key transitions.

If we had a less injury plagued defence I do not think our defence is near as deep as it was. Ten Hag's ideal approach is to have the defenders step out, but he doesn't have the squad quality to do this.

So you are saying that the squad players are not following Ten Hags instructions and dropping deeper than they should? If that is the case then Ten Hag should take them out as they are not following instructions.
Alternatively, If its been decided amongst coaching staff that the squad players are incapable of playing a high line then they should ask our front players not too be so aggressive while pressing. But we seem time & time again that the front players press, the defence drops deep & the midfielders are left to cover chasms.
Its funny that Ten Hag is telling the defenders to play a high line yet we rarely concede goals where opposition has broken the offside trap. On the contrary, we always see goals against us where opposition is running through the midfield and are attacking our retreating backline.

 

[VP89]

So you are saying that the squad players are not following Ten Hags instructions and dropping deeper than they should? If that is the case then Ten Hag should take them out as they are not following instructions.
Alternatively, If its been decided amongst coaching staff that the squad players are incapable of playing a high line then they should ask our front players not too be so aggressive while pressing. But we seem time & time again that the front players press, the defence drops deep & the midfielders are left to cover chasms.
Its funny that Ten Hag is telling the defenders to play a high line yet we rarely concede goals where opposition has broken the offside trap. On the contrary, we always see goals against us where opposition is running through the midfield and are attacking our retreating backline.

I think the defence are trying but naturally they'd fall deeper given their lack of stamina and pace. I don't think Ten hag can cut them because they happen to be the emergency coverage in the first place.

Thats why I'm saying he needs a better squad. When the defence is so far out of sync the rest of the team will naturally fall apart. We've seen defensive signings transform sides before, and we can see a plagued defence destroy their own team too.

 

[pocco]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/expectations-for-season-2023-2024.478081/

This makes for an interesting read.

 

[Abhinav]

I think the defence are trying but naturally they'd fall deeper given their lack of stamina and pace. I don't think Ten hag can cut them because they happen to be the emergency coverage in the first place.

Thats why I'm saying he needs a better squad. When the defence is so far out of sync the rest of the team will naturally fall apart. We've seen defensive signings transform sides before, and we can see a plagued defence destroy their own team too.

This is what I am finding strange. You believe that the tactics in themselves are not flawed but the execution is letting the tactics down. If that is the case, then surely, Ten Hag as a coach must be drilling into his team daily in the training sessions to be 15 yards higher.
I would buy the execution failure argument if we would be able to atleast witness players attempting those tactics. And then you may have instances where we have been caught out because the players failed to execute the offside trap properly, or failed to win their tackles. But I have seen no evidence of that on the pitch over the past so many weeks.

 

[JPRouve]

If going forward is driving off a cliff, then it's fair to assume you won't.

Having a huge gap between defence and midfield is not something managers actively pursue for a reason. I don't think Ten Hag is trying to actually execute that system for us, unless he's looking to get sacked.

Or the idea he imagined failed, which happens. Also it's an issue that we have with every single combination of players he has used, so unless the idea is that for some reason all our midfielders decided to operate similarly as a collective, the common denominator is their coach.

Now lets say that your theory is correct, then it means that ETH is one of the worst manager ever. Two years, his players don't follow his instructions. That's even worse for him, it means that he isn't fit to manage anything.

I personally think that he initially made a mistake in the way he planned things tactically and he is being stubborn. I don't think that the issue is too dissimilar to Klopp initial crazy high line with Liverpool, the difference being that Klopp eventually tweaked things and brought players that were a perfect fit for the tweaked tactics.

 

[Telsim]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/expectations-for-season-2023-2024.478081/

This makes for an interesting read.

What I hope for is a genuine title challenge even we don't up winning it and a good Champions League run. Maybe a domestic cup.

What I expect is a Top 5 finish (new CL quota?), and a definitive end to the abhorrent, passive transitional style of football. And don't get eliminated in the group stage of the Champions League.

 

[Giggsyking]

Southgate . Fecking Ineos.

 

[Daydreamer]

If going forward is driving off a cliff, then it's fair to assume you won't.

Having a huge gap between defence and midfield is not something managers actively pursue for a reason. I don't think Ten Hag is trying to actually execute that system for us, unless he's looking to get sacked.

Why does it matter that he’s not actively pursuing having a huge gap in midfield? I mean, it’s good that he’s not actively trying sabotage his team, but I would have thought that that goes without saying.

Surely the the problem is the gaping hole in midfield, not his intentions?

 

[Plant0x84]

United phoned up Leeds to sign Lee Chapman and were offered Cantona.

I thought the story was the Howard Wilkinson called to enquire about one of our players and ended up selling Cantona?

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

[
G

I thought the story was the Howard Wilkinson called to enquire about one of our players and ended up selling Cantona?

I think they were talking about Irwin and Ferguson asked about Chapman and Cantona was offered?!

Maybe I’m wrong; there was a rumour around the time about Cantona and Chapmans wife. I was young so don’t know if it was a banter rumour or some truth to it

 

[Plant0x84]

I think they were talking about Irwin and Ferguson asked about Chapman and Cantona was offered?!

Maybe I’m wrong; there was a rumour around the time about Cantona and Chapmans wife. I was young so don’t know if it was a banter rumour or some truth to it

Yeah, I looked it up - we are both partly right. This is from United official website.

By coincidence, Leeds United chairman Bill Fotherby then called Edwards to enquire about the availability of Denis Irwin. That was rebuffed, and while Whites striker Lee Chapman cropped up in the ensuing conversation, Ferguson impulsively urged his chairman to enquire about Cantona, who had been omitted from the previous weekend’s squad to face Arsenal. Fotherby, mindful that the Frenchman had not only fallen out of favour with manager Wilkinson but was also due a £500,000 payment if he remained at Elland Road much longer.

 

[VP89]

This is what I am finding strange. You believe that the tactics in themselves are not flawed but the execution is letting the tactics down. If that is the case, then surely, Ten Hag as a coach must be drilling into his team daily in the training sessions to be 15 yards higher.
I would buy the execution failure argument if we would be able to atleast witness players attempting those tactics. And then you may have instances where we have been caught out because the players failed to execute the offside trap properly, or failed to win their tackles. But I have seen no evidence of that on the pitch over the past so many weeks.

Or the idea he imagined failed, which happens. Also it's an issue that we have with every single combination of players he has used, so unless the idea is that for some reason all our midfielders decided to operate similarly as a collective, the common denominator is their coach.

Now lets say that your theory is correct, then it means that ETH is one of the worst manager ever. Two years, his players don't follow his instructions. That's even worse for him, it means that he isn't fit to manage anything.

I personally think that he initially made a mistake in the way he planned things tactically and he is being stubborn. I don't think that the issue is too dissimilar to Klopp initial crazy high line with Liverpool, the difference being that Klopp eventually tweaked things and brought players that were a perfect fit for the tweaked tactics.

Why does it matter that he’s not actively pursuing having a huge gap in midfield? I mean, it’s good that he’s not actively trying sabotage his team, but I would have thought that that goes without saying.

Surely the the problem is the gaping hole in midfield, not his intentions?

Just responding to these together because there's an overlap in my views.

Ten Hag's first part of the season did start with an overly bullish approach, with Mount and Bruno as 8.5s and not having the control in midfield. However, I do not think it was ever in his design to play the defence deep. Had some combination of Licha/Shaw/AWB stayed fit then we may have seen whether that system eventually clicked. I recall in his early time at Ajax he had players questioning a change in style openly in the dressing room until it did click and they transcended into a great side. I'm not saying that would have certainly happened, but I think he had a plan (which his transfer strategy centered around) and it had to be tweaked in realtime as injuries started to happen.

The problem is, I don't think he can sustain counter attacking football as an alternative and target 4th place with the quality of the Premier League right now. He is trusting players in his team to play a style that is tweaked away from that dual 8.5 role and pivoted toward a holding midfielder and then a central pivot, where even Bruno is unable to push as high as he used to. The problem is, the style still needs a higher line than what we show, and our emergency defenders are not capable of sustaining this.

If we were able to get continuity with the defence, perhaps slower defenders can position themselves better on the pitch and trust each other on covering the half spaces. However he's had 20 something combinations of a back 4 this season out of obligation more than anything else. I don't think the defence has any chemistry (this is something he's actually addressed multiple times in his pressers as a problem in the way we play), and that causes them to go into "safe mode" mid match and fall deeper. This creates a gap between defence and midfield, which is not the intention of the long term style our manager wants.

This is why I'm saying I believe Ten Hag is not actually trying to have a massive gap between defence and midfield. Literally no manager knowingly does that because it's suicidal.

I'll end by saying Ten Hag is not without blame - the CL run pisses me off royally as much as it does anyone else. And despite Onana fecking us over for 6 points I think prime blame goes on Ten Hag for not showing pragmatism in high stake games. And I think there are a handful of games where we weren't good enough regardless of tactics - Fulham, Palace and Bournemouth being the big ones. That said, he's had the cards stacked against him and his room for error is very small relative to other managers.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Yeah, I looked it up - we are both partly right. This is from United official website.

Ah right, I knew it was something like that , Cheers for clearing it up