Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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CasaStreets said:
It's a good point and that's exactly what I wrangle with too. To what degree should EtH be judged as a tactician/manager of the team for the missteps he's made running our transfers? Obviously, he's fully culpable in the sense they're his decisions. But, on the other hand, recruitment and even style of play are increasingly out of managers' hands at the progressive, elite clubs.

While I also don't know exactly where the lines are drawn between club leadership vs manager vs recruiting, I think that in this environment the contributions managers should make is to ensure a recruit's mentality is aligned with what they want. But managers should be less responsible for answering: is this the ROI-maximizing player for us to acquire given their performance, our budget, style of play, mentality, etc? Frankly, I think that type of equation isn't one most managers are well-equipped to answer in full.
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I’ve read this quite a bit in this thread. Is it true? Look at the five teams currently above United in the PL:

Liverpool play like a Klopp team.
City play like a Pep team.
Arsenal play like an Arteta team.
Villa play like an Emery team.
Spurs play like a Ange team.

Even if we leave aside Liverpool and City as being coached by generational Managers, Arteta is in his first job and Emery / Ange are in their first seasons at their clubs. And yet each club is playing a recognisable style of football that their Managers demand.

I’m sure that’s the case in all leagues. And where it’s not the case, that’s because things have gone horribly wrong (e.g. Tuchel at Bayern).

Where has the idea that Managers are no longer responsible for most areas of leading the team come from?

And if Managers are no longer responsible for influencing their team’s style of play… what exactly are they responsible for?
 
Daydreamer said:
I’ve read this quite a bit in this thread. Is it true? Look at the five teams currently above United in the PL:

Liverpool play like a Klopp team.
City play like a Pep team.
Arsenal play like an Arteta team.
Villa play like an Emery team.
Spurs play like a Ange team.

Even if we leave aside Liverpool and City as being coached by generational Managers, Arteta is in his first job and Emery / Ange are in their first seasons at their clubs. And yet each club is playing a recognisable style of football that their Managers demand.

I’m sure that’s the case in all leagues. And where it’s not the case, that’s because things have gone horribly wrong (e.g. Tuchel at Bayern).

Where has the idea that Managers are no longer responsible for most areas of leading the team come from?

And if Managers are no longer responsible for influencing their team’s style of play… what exactly are they responsible for?
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Fair point, but the main point of my post was not about who's responsible for playing philosophy - it was about who's responsible for player recruitment.

So then the question becomes, do you think our best 11 are the right types of players to play Ten Haag's style?
 
Daydreamer said:
I’ve read this quite a bit in this thread. Is it true? Look at the five teams currently above United in the PL:

Liverpool play like a Klopp team.
City play like a Pep team.
Arsenal play like an Arteta team.
Villa play like an Emery team.
Spurs play like a Ange team.

Even if we leave aside Liverpool and City as being coached by generational Managers, Arteta is in his first job and Emery / Ange are in their first seasons at their clubs. And yet each club is playing a recognisable style of football that their Managers demand.

I’m sure that’s the case in all leagues. And where it’s not the case, that’s because things have gone horribly wrong (e.g. Tuchel at Bayern).

Where has the idea that Managers are no longer responsible for most areas of leading the team come from?

And if Managers are no longer responsible for influencing their team’s style of play… what exactly are they responsible for?
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And Ajax did under Ten Hag?

Who’d been there four years and a few months. Arteta has been at Arsenal for … four years and a few months.

Liverpool were not easy to watch in Klopps first two years.

I‘m not saying Ten Hag is a great manager or should definitely stay but I don’t think it’s a simple “he’s good, he’s not”… yet.

Ronaldo, Sancho x2, Rashford, injuries, idiots in charge/FFP/loan buys, wasted tfr funds. But he has also made some odd selections, odd tactics, odd subs.

Again, I’m not sure he’s the one but if he has a season with Ratcliffe, Berrada, couple of others decent, that will make it a lot clearer
 
CasaStreets said:
I am constantly conflicted about this guy because the biggest argument against him is that his transfers have been abysmal.

But at the same time, in a well-run club he wouldn't (and shouldn't) be the person driving our transfer decisions.

So, to me, it still feels weird to sack a manager primarily because of a problem that is (hopefully) being resolved structurally.
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That is absolutely not the biggest argument against him. The biggest argument against him is the complete lack of footballing intelligence displayed by our team.
 
When we sack him, it should not be seen as another free pass for the players to see if they perform under a different manager and system.

I also feel that Ten Hag may get binned if we lose to Everton at the weekend.

Player briefing also shows some are not for playing under him.
 
pcaming said:
That is absolutely not the biggest argument against him. The biggest argument against him is the complete lack of footballing intelligence displayed by our team.
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People keep saying this and ignore that most of these players were extremely limited, inconsistent, or were still youth players in the years preceding EtH.

I've gone quite far back in this thread and there are many complaints about the status quo but few proposed solutions that would make better use of our current players.

EtH may very well be the wrong manager but for me this season's poor performance is, once again, 80-90% player-driven, 10-20% manager-driven.

If his signings had been good, we'd be on our way to resolving our player issues. But they've been disproportionately bad, and that's his biggest issue.
 
Licha-Vidic said:




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None of this actually suggests they are planning to let him go. Just that the options are on the table and squad players are punting.

They might let him go, they might not. It makes sense they are not ruling out any option, so it's essentially a nothing burger from a journalist with form for giving little away.
 
VP89 said:
None of this actually suggests they are planning to let him go. Just that the options are on the table and squad players are punting.

They might let him go, they might not. It makes sense they are not ruling out any option, so it's essentially a nothing burger from a journalist with form for giving little away.
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Yep.
 
VP89 said:
None of this actually suggests they are planning to let him go. Just that the options are on the table and squad players are punting.

They might let him go, they might not. It makes sense they are not ruling out any option, so it's essentially a nothing burger from a journalist with form for giving little away.
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And of course the aggregator twitter profiles are not taking it word for word just the bits that gets the clicks
 
So many teams are scoring for fun against Sheffield United but we have struggeld against them....this says everything about our season.
 
VP89 said:
None of this actually suggests they are planning to let him go. Just that the options are on the table and squad players are punting.

They might let him go, they might not. It makes sense they are not ruling out any option, so it's essentially a nothing burger from a journalist with form for giving little away.
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He will stay, I am certain of that. Only has to wait until Berrada/Ashworth are settled before he gets a new contract.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
And Ajax did under Ten Hag?

Who’d been there four years and a few months. Arteta has been at Arsenal for … four years and a few months.

Liverpool were not easy to watch in Klopps first two years.
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This is false. Liverpool were playing exactly like Klopp wants from the start. They just didn't get the results (goals or defensive stops) from the start.
And yes, Ajax did after the first season (that he joined midway) according to the Ajax fans.

It doesn't take that long to implement your style.
 
pascell said:
Player briefing also shows some are not for playing under him.
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brief says that although they don’t think he’ll stay he retains the support of the dressing room. The players are clearly trying otherwise they wouldn’t have frauded their way to that 5 game win run despite the performances being questionable.
 
pascell said:
When we sack him, it should not be seen as another free pass for the players to see if they perform under a different manager and system.

I also feel that Ten Hag may get binned if we lose to Everton at the weekend.

Player briefing also shows some are not for playing under him.
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Yes, ten Hag needs to go but so many players need replacing, too. We know the majority of them aren't good enough. Saddling our next manager with some of these players in the hopes they'll turn into completely different players will show that our fresh start won't be as different as any of our previous ones.
 
Sarni said:
He will stay, I am certain of that. Only has to wait until Berrada/Ashworth are settled before he gets a new contract.
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I reckon they have an open mind, and unlike the caf they aren't entrenched in any view. Theyl likely assess the reasons for managerial failure and ask if their structure unlocks ten hags potential, or whether there's one in the market thats more of a sure hit.

My guess is theyl keep him, as I can't think of a manager currently who isn't a big risk anyway. Might not hurt to keep a further season and monitor Ancelotti if things don't go well, for example.
 
Recruitment has been horrible for him. If people want to lay blame for Cas, Antony, Mount etc at his door, so be it, but even if he did OK them, it's on the rest of the structure for signing it off. This simply cannot happen at a top club.

When we have an actual striker, CB and LB we seem to have a semblance of a plan and you can see patterns of play.

With constant injuries, a squad that is somehow thin despite costing an inordinate amount, I doubt any manager can succeed in these circumstances.

Our players almost universally have major technical, physical or decision making deficiencies. They are inconsistent, injury prone. We have too many at the start or finish of their careers and those that are in their "prime" do no justice to the term.

Our structure is a disaster. Moyes, LVG, Mou and Ole have all had the exact same experience ETH has, and yet we still find ourselves with useless players briefing for the manager to leave as if it's on a timetable.

When we ditch ETH, which perhaps we have to, the success that our next manager finds (if they do) will be largely dependent on the structure above them, just as our previous managers failures can be attributable to that instability.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
And Ajax did under Ten Hag?

Who’d been there four years and a few months. Arteta has been at Arsenal for … four years and a few months.

Liverpool were not easy to watch in Klopps first two years.

I‘m not saying Ten Hag is a great manager or should definitely stay but I don’t think it’s a simple “he’s good, he’s not”… yet.

Ronaldo, Sancho x2, Rashford, injuries, idiots in charge/FFP/loan buys, wasted tfr funds. But he has also made some odd selections, odd tactics, odd subs.

Again, I’m not sure he’s the one but if he has a season with Ratcliffe, Berrada, couple of others decent, that will make it a lot clearer
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I’m confused, that exactly what I’m saying - Managers are responsible for their team’s style of play.

Arteta has indeed been at Arsenal for years. But we didn’t suddenly start playing the way we do.

Liverpool weren’t an instant success with Klopp. But Klopp did impact the way they play pretty much immediately. As did Ange. And Emery.

It seems like how the team plays is being removed from a Manager’s remit purely to protect ETH’s reputation.

“United aren't playing well.”

“You can’t blame ETH for that, it’s not his responsibility.”

It’s possibly the weirdest thing I’ve ever read on a football forum.
 
VP89 said:
I reckon they have an open mind, and unlike the caf they aren't entrenched in any view. Theyl likely assess the reasons for managerial failure and ask if their structure unlocks ten hags potential, or whether there's one in the market thats more of a sure hit.

My guess is theyl keep him, as I can't think of a manager currently who isn't a big risk anyway. Might not hurt to keep a further season and monitor Ancelotti if things don't go well, for example.
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I think Ten Hag will have to present his style he's trying to achieve and what he needs to achieve it. If he can't effectively present that to the hierachy and win them over, he'll be gone.

I think the Greenwood situation and the state of our injuries and some horrific form give him a bit of rope, but if the level of performance keeps declining, the cost of creating the squad will increase and will be harder to place faith + cash in him.
 
While his future should be in the balance, so should the future of 90% of the squad.
 
To be honest I can’t believe he’s still in charge, it borders on dereliction of duty from the execs.

Terrible coach, season, and team going from bad to worse.
 
The biggest factor against Ten Hag is that, had he not sent the team out to be suicidally open in most our matches, we would be well within touching distance of top four.

No Man Utd coach could get away with playing like we did at Wastelands every week. However, nobody complained when we played compact, counterattacking football to win against Newcastle in the Carabao Cup final. It may not have been total football. Nevertheless, it beats seeing Adama Traore exploit the huge open spaces in our set up.

At any time this season Ten Hag could have said: 'You know what. I don't have the players to do what I really want to do. Let's not press quite so high, let's keep the lines a little bit closer together.'

Never happened.

What we have seen from him has been a choice. A choice he will have to account for at the end of the season.
 
I think a decision should be made now either he is leaving at the end of the season or leave immediately.

All the players should be put on notice, you are playing for your careers at this club.

Yes the manager has failed in certain areas but it cannot always be the managers at our club all these failed seasons
 
He’s gonna get sacked and his biggest undoing would be his transfers and to change from being a pro active modern manager at Ajax to a worse version of ole and Mourinho. How he got us into playing this style of crap football, I’d love to know but he should have been much smarter than what he’s shown.

And what he’s shown in these 2 years is we either hired a talented but stubborn manager or the most incompetent fool since Fergie. Otherwise how on earth has he made some of the decisions that he did and what on earth abandon his philosophy and principles I would never understand.

May be the job was too big for him and he shrank under pressure to perform from day one which won’t be surprising as I never thought he had that steely personality. It is what it is. We were all sold a dream by him. Thought he was our messiah but turned out to be bluffmaster.
 
Oranges038 said:
While his future should be in the balance, so should the future of 90% of the squad.
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If ETH gets the sack today, every player in the squad gets another 2 years by default because the new manager will trust them and the club will try to save money.

And after 2 years, we will be having the same conversation again.
 
ohhrooney said:
Forget the structure, forget the recruitments, but isn’t it a manager’s job to make a team play better than sum of its parts, otherwise what’s the point of a manager? Even Fergie never had a team full of superstars.
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Our first 11 is pretty decent. There is a big drop off when we introduce reserve/fringe players. Sadly, we’ve had catastrophic injuries to a lot of our first choice players. Frankly given our results even without performances I’d say ETH has been doing exactly that - making the team better than our deadwood.
We’ve also suffered due to bringing in a new keeper who has been finding his feet in the team, the league and even the country.
Pep doesn’t make City play better with KDB or Rodri, Klopp doesn’t make the team better without Salah. There is only so much a manager can affect from the sidelines and the training pitch.
 
kaku06 said:
He’s gonna get sacked and his biggest undoing would be his transfers and to change from being a pro active modern manager at Ajax to a worse version of ole and Mourinho. How he got us into playing this style of crap football, I’d love to know but he should have been much smarter than what he’s shown.

And what he’s shown in these 2 years is we either hired a talented but stubborn manager or the most incompetent fool since Fergie. Otherwise how on earth has he made some of the decisions that he did and what on earth abandon his philosophy and principles I would never understand.

May be the job was too big for him and he shrank under pressure to perform from day one which won’t be surprising as I never thought he had that steely personality. It is what it is. We were all sold a dream by him. Thought he was our messiah but turned out to be bluffmaster.
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I might be way off, but my guess is that the higher ups/Murtough told him ‘the Man Utd way is counterattacking, swashbuckling footbal’ and that possession based football is too boring to watch.
 
Fiocca said:
Everyone. Give this guy a chance. Get behind him but remember, the team needs gutting. There will be more pain and disappointment ahead for quite a while so stick with him and let's hope we see some light at the end of the tunnel, a very long tunnel!
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Post 16 in this thread. A very good post, it bares repeating.
We are still in the process of gutting that team. We are still undoing the errors of the past. Now is not the time to give up.
 
A decision has already been made. It's quite clear and was always quite clear. He will be sacked, but at the end of the season, similar to Van Gaal.

I think we're cautious on using the interim method due to the problems faced with Rangnick and the overreaction with Ole. I also don't think the club wants to give the players another excuse to drop their heads.

I don't think Ten Haag has lost the dressing room, which is why him staying until the end of the season is fair.

I also think we're going to see some of our biggest names leave, so it won't just be ETH on the chopping block.
 
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