Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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LVG taught a much worse team to play possession football here. Ange did it with a Spurs team that was dreadful and had just lost their best player. There's many examples of it in the PL. And I'm not just talking about "the players we have available at the moment" as this has been an issue for longer than just this season.

Lopetegui is a manager with pedigree and I mentioned him as a potential caretaker option. He's shown in his career that he can get a team playing good football. I don't think it's fair for you to come up with every excuse in the book for Ten Hag, but then point to Potter's time at Chelsea where they were in much bigger disarray than we are/were and had somebody without a clue about football making all of their signings.

Out of interest, which managers would you consider to replace Ten Hag? You dismiss practically everyone based on some failure somewhere in their career, but I've not really seen you stick your neck out and give any names.

The possession football we played under LVG was pointless though, we passed the ball around in slow motion only to lose it and concede on the counter. Do you want us to go back to the LVG days? If not, then it's a completely disingenuous point.

Lopetegui has what pedigree exactly? He's shown in his career that he can get a lesser team playing good football, but when given a chance to do it with a top team he failed utterly, lasting 2 months at Real Madrid. That's a much better predictor of how things would go here than him getting Wolves to play some decent stuff. It's the same with Potter, he did well at Brighton, as part of a setup designed to get the best out of his style of football, but then he took over a bigger team in Chelsea, that had been assembled without that in mind, and had the worst points return for a manager in the club's history. Given that he'd be coming here, to a team similarly unsuited, but under even more pressure, his Chelsea performance is a much better indicator of how he'd perform.

You tried to deflect to me making excuses for Ten Hag, but that's irrelevant to the point. If we're going to sack him immediately and bring in a caretaker, it needs to be someone who hasn't got a track record of failure, and only failure, at big clubs, which Potter and Lopetegui both have. Otherwise it's nothing more than a wild punt, which is the short sighted approach I've been against from the start.

The Ange example is a reasonable one, it shows that it is possible for a manager to come in and overhaul a team's style very quickly, but again the circumstances are quite different. He came into a job with basically a free hit, there were rock bottom expectations and very little pressure, even though Spurs spent more under him that summer than we have during either summer with Ten Hag.

As for your last paragraph, it's objectively false. You and I have had this conversation before, and I've named managers (Nagelsmann, Rose, for example) who look like they could take the changes Ten Hag has made so far and run with them. My position on who it should be has softened quite a lot given that the new footballing regime seem like they know what they're doing, so I'll get behind whoever they bring in (if they decide to do so) as long as it looks like it's part of a plan and fits into a bigger picture stylistically. I'd even be OK with a caretaker if they fit the aforementioned criteria. What I'm dead against is your suggested approach of throwing any random manager at the job who's made a lesser team play well under comparatively easy circumstances, but hasn't demonstrated anything that would suggest they could do the same at a huge club under intense pressure, or in the cases of your two named suggestions, have demonstrated resoundingly that they aren't capable of that.
 
When looking at that game, the real question is, if it was an FA Cup game and it was Shrewsbury or Carlisle instead of us, would you actually be completely shocked by how well they performed?

I wouldn't, scored a wonder goal, defended with 11 men without creating anything, City missed chance after chance before eventually sealing the game.
This is exactly the thing that's baffling me. United are somehow simultaneously such minnows that their fans should be grateful City didn't batter them, while also being such giants that they are a bigger draw than the likes of Liverpool and Bayern for potential Managers.

United played like they were terrified of City. That shouldn't be acceptable. Anyone can lose to this City side, but United looked like they happy to escape with a respectable scoreline. I'm not exaggerating when I say that is the least ambitious performance I've seen from an away side visiting the Etihad this season.
 
It's true. Haaland's miss in particular was shocking.
Yes had that gone in, it would have been level at HT and I think the game as a contest would have been over much sooner. United right now remind me of Arsenal of the last few years up until 2-3 years ago - far too easy to play through with no physicality. I was rooting for United to take something from City, but I had no confidence that even sitting deep for most of the game, you'd keep them out. Your defensive shape off the ball was good but your players faded and bench options were horrible due to injuries. However, on the ball, you could barely string 3 passes together. I read a stat that United only had 3 touches in the City box?
 
When looking at that game, the real question is, if it was an FA Cup game and it was Shrewsbury or Carlisle instead of us, would you actually be completely shocked by how well they performed?

I wouldn't, scored a wonder goal, defended with 11 men without creating anything, City missed chance after chance before eventually sealing the game.
The bar has moved so low that many are happy with such a performance.
 
The bar has moved so low that many are happy with such a performance.

It’s crazy mate. I’ve seen post on here this morning saying that we should not only keep ETH on next season we should also offer him a new fecking contract!
 
What I find astonishing about our managers is that they don't just have a slight drop off, they hit absolute rock bottom before we move them on.
 
The embarrassing Champions League exit is a huge black mark for me. If it wasn’t for an Onana penalty save, we’d have finished with 2 points with no wins in a group which had Galatasaray and Copenhagen in it.
 
The bar has moved so low that many are happy with such a performance.

The bar has been on the floor for a decade mate. There's actual real life United fans who have celebrated things like 2nd place, 3rd place, one penalty kick away from winning the EL, the beating Pep trophy etc. If Liverpool fans had of been celebrating said 'achievements', we would have been laughing our arses off.

Once we get our act together, I suspect we'll finally unanimously agree that the past decade was a fecking farce.
 
Not doing himself any favors. In the last two weeks he's come out and said Anthony is unstoppable and that performance was very good.

I think he's heard about Liverpool's drug use but he's started using the wrong sort.

Can't wait until he's gone. Thankfully we're in the last few months now.
 
Lindelof was getting rinsed by Foden at left back. You could have made a case for getting Dalot across to LB even if Evans wasn’t injured. But when he did go off it was a no brainer to use that enforced change as an opportunity to get Dalot across to the left. And there’s no question that Varane + Lindelof is a superior CB partnership to Varane + Kwambala.

Didn't Foden just move to the left after Dalot switched to LB?
 
What I find astonishing about our managers is that they don't just have a slight drop off, they hit absolute rock bottom before we move them on.

The fact that this keeps happening does suggest that the manager isn't the only one who is failing the club. There are some very strong similarities particularly between how Ole and ETH turned out for us in the end.

I don't mean to excuse ETH or Ole, but I honestly don't know if any manager could have succeeded. We've been run so badly in so many ways
 
Vastly superior personnel is debateable for a number of reasons.
It really isn't. It's not even close. He inherited a team that new how to win, with a United dressing room. The ONLY players truly on the brink of breaking were Rio and Vidic. The only thing that changed was he ripped out all the backroom staff that made them win the league previously under Fergie and brought his who were who hadn't the slightest clue how to run a winning ship.

Compare that to ETH stepping into a side low on morale, fractured in the dressing room and low on standards, with Frankenstein squad with questionable quality. Yet ended his first year with a trophy, a runners up in another and 3rd.

You are seriously clutching at straws.
 
Didn't Foden just move to the left after Dalot switched to LB?

He did. Hence City were forced to respond to a tweak which fixed a blatant weakness in our back four. None of which made them any less dominant or our defence any less shit. I’m just explaining the logic behind our reshuffle when Evans went off injured. Seeing as a few people in this thread are implying there was none.
 
He did. Hence City were forced to respond to a tweak which fixed a blatant weakness in our back four. None of which made them any less dominant or our defence any less shit. I’m just explaining the logic behind our reshuffle when Evans went off injured. Seeing as a few people in this thread are implying there was none.

No I know what you're saying mate and as I said I'd normally agree with the logic. But in big games like yesterday when we're under a lot of pressure swapping the whole defence around rarely helps.

Foden just moved wings anyway so it's not like Dalot going to LB did much.
 
Moyes for one, managed to get the team through to the champions league knockout stages in a much trickier group and had a goal difference of +21, something Ten Hag has failed to match in either season so far.
Sure, he won a league cup, the next level from a community shield.
No no and NO!!!! I didn't stutter.

What did Moyes achieve domestically with far better player resources in the same job in his first year in it? Stick to the answer.

What did ETH do in the same job in his first year domestically? Stick to that answer

What has he won domestically in his decades here? How long has it taken ETH to out strip it.

Stick to that answer.


Then after you answer.


Post again the answer is positive proof ETH is far worse. I double dare you.


Don't sneak in the champions league. Nor this season to buttress your answers.
 
Agreed, but a lot of that is down to the personnel, our forward players aren't really built for holding on to the ball, except perhaps Hojlund, we've struggled with attacking play when there isn't space to run into for a decade now.

I think its all down to personnel but at United the manager has a sizeable role in that.

Should he have a prominent role in recruitment is a different debate.

Currently the manager does have a big role and the front four(including its backups) is a big, unsolved problem.
 
Compare that to ETH stepping into a side low on morale, fractured in the dressing room and low on standards, with Frankenstein squad with questionable quality. Yet ended his first year with a trophy, a runners up in another and 3rd.

You are seriously clutching at straws.

Why dont we compare ETH's second season with Moyes' first then.

Just won a trophy. Just spent another £210m+ on hand picked signings.

But he's doing far worse than Moyes with better players on paper, 16 of whom he either signed or gave new contracts to (compared to Moyes getting one player in)
 
The bar has been on the floor for a decade mate. There's actual real life United fans who have celebrated things like 2nd place, 3rd place, one penalty kick away from winning the EL, the beating Pep trophy etc. If Liverpool fans had of been celebrating said 'achievements', we would have been laughing our arses off.

Once we get our act together, I suspect we'll finally unanimously agree that the past decade was a fecking farce.
You're forgetting a couple big ones: the Golden Gloves and the "beating City to Sanchez / Fred / Maguire" trophy
 
It's a simple problem really. When you play every game like a chaotic game of basketball and rely on counter attacking football or long balls in behind, with little focus on control and possession, then when you are under the cosh and barely have the ball, you have no instinct to help keep the ball well as a team. That's why even lower half teams do better against the likes of City as they mostly all try to keep the ball well. Even fecking Burnley are better in possession than us for the most part.
We had 1 good spell of keeping the ball at the start of the 2nd half and that was it sadly
 
The fact that this keeps happening does suggest that the manager isn't the only one who is failing the club. There are some very strong similarities particularly between how Ole and ETH turned out for us in the end.

I don't mean to excuse ETH or Ole, but I honestly don't know if any manager could have succeeded. We've been run so badly in so many ways

I dont think there are any similarities between the two, Oles final season went wrong because he changed his tactics from a team fast counter attacking setup to just get the ball to Ronaldo which slowed everything down and opened us up to exploit while in Erik's case its gone wrong because he is over-training the players and doesnt really have any proper tactics or gameplan.
 
The possession football we played under LVG was pointless though, we passed the ball around in slow motion only to lose it and concede on the counter. Do you want us to go back to the LVG days? If not, then it's a completely disingenuous point.

Lopetegui has what pedigree exactly? He's shown in his career that he can get a lesser team playing good football, but when given a chance to do it with a top team he failed utterly, lasting 2 months at Real Madrid. That's a much better predictor of how things would go here than him getting Wolves to play some decent stuff. It's the same with Potter, he did well at Brighton, as part of a setup designed to get the best out of his style of football, but then he took over a bigger team in Chelsea, that had been assembled without that in mind, and had the worst points return for a manager in the club's history. Given that he'd be coming here, to a team similarly unsuited, but under even more pressure, his Chelsea performance is a much better indicator of how he'd perform.

You tried to deflect to me making excuses for Ten Hag, but that's irrelevant to the point. If we're going to sack him immediately and bring in a caretaker, it needs to be someone who hasn't got a track record of failure, and only failure, at big clubs, which Potter and Lopetegui both have. Otherwise it's nothing more than a wild punt, which is the short sighted approach I've been against from the start.

The Ange example is a reasonable one, it shows that it is possible for a manager to come in and overhaul a team's style very quickly, but again the circumstances are quite different. He came into a job with basically a free hit, there were rock bottom expectations and very little pressure, even though Spurs spent more under him that summer than we have during either summer with Ten Hag.

As for your last paragraph, it's objectively false. You and I have had this conversation before, and I've named managers (Nagelsmann, Rose, for example) who look like they could take the changes Ten Hag has made so far and run with them. My position on who it should be has softened quite a lot given that the new footballing regime seem like they know what they're doing, so I'll get behind whoever they bring in (if they decide to do so) as long as it looks like it's part of a plan and fits into a bigger picture stylistically. I'd even be OK with a caretaker if they fit the aforementioned criteria. What I'm dead against is your suggested approach of throwing any random manager at the job who's made a lesser team play well under comparatively easy circumstances, but hasn't demonstrated anything that would suggest they could do the same at a huge club under intense pressure, or in the cases of your two named suggestions, have demonstrated resoundingly that they aren't capable of that.

I'm sorry, you said nobody can teach these players to play possession football. I pointed out that they probably can. It's more of the usual bollocks from you in moving the goal posts all over to try to vindicate this manager.

Vincent Kompany has Burnley playing possession based football, they're just not very good because their players aren't very good at this level. They lost 2-0 at the weekend against a better team, yet had 75% of the possession. You're just buying into this idea that we have 30+ players who can't play possession football, again to vindicate the manager. Onana, Varane, Martinez, Eriksen, Dalot, Casemiro, Amrabat, Antony, Mount, Shaw, Mainoo, possibly Hojlund and Garnacho, probably Amad - all of these players have either played possession based football elsewhere (some to a very high level) or are capable of it. If you disagree with any of them then explain why you don't think they could, yet worse players in the league can.

I'm not suggesting throwing any random manager at the job, I've suggested two managers that have shown they can get teams playing possession football, and/or who like to deploy a pressing game. In fact I'd say they are closer to Nagelsmann than ETH has been for us. In my opinion Nagelsmann values possession and control much more than ETH. He also plays a much higher defensive line with a more aggressive press. Lopetegui ticks both of these boxes. Nagelsmann in the past has also adopted a 3/5 at the back system which is fluid, as did Graham Potter at Brighton. Again, not something ETH is even using here. So how can you claim the manager is having the foundations laid by the guy doing none of this, and be against caretaker managers who would offer some or all of this? Again, like Nagelsmann, these managers are also very flexible and fluid in the formations they adopt during a game and across a whole season. Something that, again, Ten Hag is not. Amazing foundations this guy is laying.

Pep Guardiola himself has talked about how much of a fan of Potter he was. He enjoyed the principles of his football, calling him the 'best English manager' and said that as a player he would have loved to have played in his system. He failed at Chelsea in a bizarre set of circumstances, whereby the UK government had practically seized control of the club and forced it's sale. They were then took over by a consortium headed up by a guy from American Baseball of all things, who spent a ridiculous amount of money on a number of players, many of which hadn't even established themselves at their current club let alone the top level of football. I think that is a pretty extenuating circumstance, and this is now proven given that they have since spent a further £250m and have a capable manager, yet still aren't any better. You say he failed in his one chance at a big club, and then recommend Marco Rose who lasted a massive one season at a well run Dortumund? Ok then pal. The same Rose that finished 3rd in a weak CL group with Dortmund, then got pumped by Rangers in the Europa League and knocked out of the German Cup by St Pauli?

You know what though, if push came to shove then I'd give Rose a shot, though he would be far away from any of my top choices and rightly so. But can you see how easy it is to just sit here and pick apart any manager?
 
The fact that this keeps happening does suggest that the manager isn't the only one who is failing the club. There are some very strong similarities particularly between how Ole and ETH turned out for us in the end.

I don't mean to excuse ETH or Ole, but I honestly don't know if any manager could have succeeded. We've been run so badly in so many ways
We know the club is chaotic, but some perspective needed. Ole had failed at Cardiff. Noone ever expected him to manage United. If it wasn't for a bizarre hand ball penalty at PSG he wouldn't have got the job, and any senior manager other than Woodward who understood football wouldn't have appointed him then. These parallels with other failed managers are pointless. On paper, ETH looked far better qualified, but there were red flags from early on, some warned by Ajax fans. Judge him for what he has (or has not) done.
 
Why dont we compare ETH's second season with Moyes' first then.
Because that would be a blatant attempt at using dishonest scales. You know it too that is why you are so darned eager to use it to save face.


I don't understand this desperate need for many ETH detractors on here to dispense of the bounds of truth, commense and logic in a bid to 'prove' how bad ETH is.


It isn't that hard to critique him accurately and argue why you'd prefer him replaced without resorting to dog and pony show tactics
 
Because that would be a blatant attempt at using dishonest scales. You know it too that is why you are so darned eager to use it to save face.


I don't understand this desperate need for many ETH detractors on here to dispense of the bounds of truth, commense and logic in a bid to 'prove' how bad ETH is.


It isn't that hard to critique him accurately and argue why you'd prefer him replaced without resorting to dog and pony show tactics

I dont need to save any face. Moyes and ETH are as shambolic as each other. Both proven incompetent at this level.

But one had to deal with Woodward, and got 1 target in the door, and the other was given carte blanche in the market and brought 11 of his picks in the door over 2 summers, 5 in the first one.

One also humiliated us in the champions league, and the other didn't.
 
This.
How can anyone be content with the way we played yesterday. Even with all these injuries, I have seen lesser sides play more attacking than we did. On an other day, we ship six or seven here. It was Anfield all over, imo. No progress.

Yeah absolutely bang on
 
There is no way he is going to be here next season. An absolute embarrassment of a CL campaign, 11 losses in the league alone, a negative goal difference and some of the worst stats in the whole division, nevermind among top teams.

He has been genuinely terrible. There is no way INEOS are gambling on him with the information at hand. They will be quietly and discretely organizing for the summer as we speak, while letting him continue to show why they needed to remove him.
 
This is exactly the thing that's baffling me. United are somehow simultaneously such minnows that their fans should be grateful City didn't batter them, while also being such giants that they are a bigger draw than the likes of Liverpool and Bayern for potential Managers.

United played like they were terrified of City. That shouldn't be acceptable. Anyone can lose to this City side, but United looked like they happy to escape with a respectable scoreline. I'm not exaggerating when I say that is the least ambitious performance I've seen from an away side visiting the Etihad this season.

That's the standard nowadays. Happy to not being thrashed by the local rivals.

As long as ETH has the highest win percentage, these fans will be happy to lag behind
 
Potter, Tuchel, De Zerbi, Inzaghi, Emery… there are plenty who could and would do a better job.

Half would at least play more forward thinking football and the others like Tuchel and Emery are just better managers if you want a trophy or two.

Don't see Emery wanting to leave Villa when they are building something promising. Have made my views on Potter crystal clear. I would be happy with any of the other three, however De Zerbi taking a few hidings this season is very concerning.
 
Yes had that gone in, it would have been level at HT and I think the game as a contest would have been over much sooner. United right now remind me of Arsenal of the last few years up until 2-3 years ago - far too easy to play through with no physicality. I was rooting for United to take something from City, but I had no confidence that even sitting deep for most of the game, you'd keep them out. Your defensive shape off the ball was good but your players faded and bench options were horrible due to injuries. However, on the ball, you could barely string 3 passes together. I read a stat that United only had 3 touches in the City box?
Yeah, playing as a plucky underdog will only get you so far. We managed to nick a point at Anfield in what was a fairly similar performance, but more often than not, you will get found out. As well as an overhaul in terms of personnel, we also need to completely change our tactical approach. Arsenal and Liverpool are both set up tactically in such a way where they can go blow for blow with City. All three of those teams suffocate the opposition. For whatever reason, ten Hag has been unable or unwilling to go down this route. It is very disappointing to see.
 
The bar has been on the floor for a decade mate. There's actual real life United fans who have celebrated things like 2nd place, 3rd place, one penalty kick away from winning the EL, the beating Pep trophy etc. If Liverpool fans had of been celebrating said 'achievements', we would have been laughing our arses off.

Once we get our act together, I suspect we'll finally unanimously agree that the past decade was a fecking farce.
I hope we can forget it ever happened.
 
When looking at that game, the real question is, if it was an FA Cup game and it was Shrewsbury or Carlisle instead of us, would you actually be completely shocked by how well they performed?

I wouldn't, scored a wonder goal, defended with 11 men without creating anything, City missed chance after chance before eventually sealing the game.

Exactly why I was so fecking embarassed and disgusted by some of our fans just shrugging their shoulders saying “we aren’t on their level”. No shit we aren’t on their level, but what I watched yesterday was closer to Shrewsbury than even Wolves or some other midtable club. They literally camped around our box for 90 minutes like it was a training session. And some in here just said “well what did you expect with our injuries?”
 
It really isn't. It's not even close. He inherited a team that new how to win, with a United dressing room. The ONLY players truly on the brink of breaking were Rio and Vidic. The only thing that changed was he ripped out all the backroom staff that made them win the league previously under Fergie and brought his who were who hadn't the slightest clue how to run a winning ship.

Compare that to ETH stepping into a side low on morale, fractured in the dressing room and low on standards, with Frankenstein squad with questionable quality. Yet ended his first year with a trophy, a runners up in another and 3rd.

You are seriously clutching at straws.

The team had just won the league the previous season but it was pretty much accepted that we didn't play that well compared to our previous levels, and were largely carried by RVP's goals. Giggs himself talked about the problems that season under Moyes and he said that the two main issues were inexperience of Moyes at that level, but also an ageing squad. Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Giggs, Carrick, Rooney, Van Persie, Fletcher, Young and Valencia approaching the twilight years. These were the spine of the team that 'knew how to win'. They were all clearly getting to or past their best . Vidic and Rio were practically finished at that stage and Evra was struggling with the pace of the league by then. I remember people even saying at the time, perhaps tongue in cheek, that Fergie knew what he was doing when he left as he wasn't getting another season out of that squad.

But I think Giggs, at that stage, didn't even realise that the issues actually went deeper than this and the whole structure of the club and the antiquated way in which we operated (which was practically held together by Fergie and Gill) was a big part of the reason it fell apart so drastically. I don't know, maybe I am doing some of these players a disservice but at the time it felt like all of the players above were past their best and/or struggling with fitness and injuries, and, apart from maybe Evra at Juve, none ever really competed at the top level again.
 
Exactly why I was so fecking embarassed and disgusted by some of our fans just shrugging their shoulders saying “we aren’t on their level”. No shit we aren’t on their level, but what I watched yesterday was closer to Shrewsbury than even Wolves or some other midtable club. They literally camped around our box for 90 minutes like it was a training session. And some in here just said “well what did you expect with our injuries?”
These fans that are excusing it deserve the last 10 years. I hope I never hear the same posters complain again about us not competing etc.

Also, Wolves have beat City this season. They lost at Etihad but had a more respectable 44% possession and had 10 shots. I think it's unfair to even compare our game to Wolves at this point.
 
For me, he is the worst manager we have had post Fergie. Yes, even worse than Moyes and Moyes was an absolute disaster.
I really had high hopes for him from the first 6 months of his spell. But it has been very evident he isn’t right for this club. No idea who to bring in next, but he needs to go. ASAP
 
EtH will start next year as the manager. INEOS know what a shambles this season has been. They will give EtH a chance to work under a proper structure. The very thing SJR has said that didn't help previous managers.

He will have until Christmas to sink or save himself . The recruitment this summer Will be the key.

Also right now with FFP etc, you don't want a new manager to start with one hand tied behind their back. That's why they will stick with EtH

Well that would be a bad start already,they should be talking to candidates now ready to sack him.
 
An absolute embarrassment of a CL campaign, 11 losses in the league alone, a negative goal difference and some of the worst stats in the whole division, nevermind among top teams.

He has been genuinely terrible.

Facts
 
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