Look at how awful all those defence stats are compared to Jose's total
. I thought LVG would be a bit closer on that front as Blind and Smalling were a decent pairing at the back.Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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. I thought LVG would be a bit closer on that front as Blind and Smalling were a decent pairing at the back.Again, if he says no to Antony, we don't have a right winger outside of Sancho or kids. It was right at the end of the window. We'd also apparently walked away from a quote of £50 million much earlier in the summer, but because the club is a clown show and we hadn't actually scouted any alternatives, we ended up panicking and returning to Ajax.
Even with Hojlund, say he says no because he also wants a centre back, he's then risking us failing to agree a cheaper deal for someone else, still only getting Evans, and scrabbling about trying to arrange another Weghorst-type loan deal as a stop-gap up top.
This isn't Football Manager where you can fully scout a player in a week and negotiate a reasonable deal in a 15 minute meeting.
Thanks for this -- good breakdown. Not surprising about the GD stuff. Even when we went in that impressive period of good form at home last season, it was always insanely close 1 goal wins.
It's so odd how we've amassed the points we have with that goal difference.
pretty much a good amount of tight wins, coupled with a good amount of heavy defeats will do that for you.
Thanks for sharing this. Of course the averages are skewed negatively due to this season (10 losses in PL already this season) but ETH currently looks like he's in a Fergie 89' moment, it can go either way for him from here and he'll need a bit of luck to ride this out. If he survives this, it'll be interesting to see how he will stack up over a larger number of games with a stable squad.
For Jose as well, where it went pear shaped for him was that 3rd season so I did a bit of a comparison calculation between Jose and ETH as well as between Ole and ETH (17 games played in Jose's last season which is when he got sacked vs. ETH's current season + then also looked at the rest of ETH's current season which is 9 games vs. Ole's first 9 PL games). The results honestly surprised me a bit:
| Played | Won | Lost | Drawn | PPG | |
| Jose - 18/19' | 17 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 1.529 |
| ETH - 23/24' | 17 | 9 | 7 | 1 | 1.647 |
| Ole - 18/19' | 9 | 8 | 0 | 1 | 2.778 |
| ETH - 23/24' | 9 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1.778 |
So over a period of 17 games + also over a period of 9 additional games ETH has actually got more PPG than Jose in the season he got sacked, which in all honesty is not bad considering all the injuries we've had this season?
Of course we ideally want to be averaging over 2.36 points per game to get to 90 points over a season which is where we should be if we want to challenge City/Arsenal/Pool. I can't say that ETH is the guy to get us there but looking at how he's done this season despite setbacks makes me think the criticism on him is a bit harsh - this is not absolving ETH from not being able to get a result with a second string team by the way, which he should have done especially against Palace, Bournemouth, West Ham, Forest and Fulham.
Shocking, it's also why stats don't really give indication of a full story. Jose was fired with a reasonable win percentage he still wasn't good enough. Now there's nonsense about the structure not alleviating a manager to win things when it's totally disingenuous to consider that a Manchester United manager in order to be successful will have established themselves as one of the very best in football (in the process of winning). FSG owned Liverpool for 5 years before Klopp and they only gained notoriety and a reputation when they had a world class manager at their disposal, it's not a coincidence.
Now this is an acceptable argument not the one being pushed down our throats that he didn't know the financial aspects of the deal, he wasn't responsible for them when he has a much publicised veto.
Now to the fact that Antony was the only RW available because the scouts were useless his stats showed he wasnt worth half the fee, which decision was better going into the season handicapped but with your finances intact or massively overpaying for an ineffectual player? The Antony signing is on him and this why you see him being defensive to the extent of lying about his pace to justify the decision.
True idiocy rather is repeatedly attacking a straw man (that anyone argues ETH didnt ok the buying of Anthony) and imagining miraculously you are making good points. True Lunacy too is repeating the cycle yet its been debunked.
You have to close to world class imbecile think to believe ten hag has ANY say over how much the club negotiates for let alone pays for a given player. Which is further borne from an utter inability to grasp what veto power is and is used for by a given manager. Managers veto signings they don't want. They don't ever use their veto on players they actually want. Thus you have to be stark raving mad to make the extravagant leaps of logic that entail: a) ETH 'insisted" the club pay for Anthony 80m, a fee reached from world class incompentence from our negotiators, a process our manager has no input in and worse b) should have "vetoed"the transfer for a player he rated and wanted, over a price he has zero jurisdiction over.
Some of you truly reason as badly as you believe ETH coaches.
Jose was really so much better than all the others in his first two years. It went downhill in third year as it always does with Jose.
I think you are both discussing a process no one has any real clue about. It’s not like there’s a certain set of rules that anyone must follow and they are universally incorporated in any football club. Nobody knows what the veto really means, nobody knows how we pick or used to pick our targets and what is appropriate to spend.
Antony was the wrong signing regardless of fee though.
Thanks to having a summer in which he lost a legend in Carrick and a competent performer like Blind. To be "strengthened" by the arrival of unproven Fred and teenaged Dalot after finishing second. Told "go thou and beat Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Manchester City to first place...."
Total nonsense to suggest that ETH wasn't briefed on the developments of the Antony deal or any acquisition especially the impact agreeing such a deal would have on overall budget. He was responsible for the talent ID and he okayed it at 80m, Fergie nixed the Hazard deal on account of agent fees for example.
My point is he identified Antony, he insisted on the signing ahead of any alternatives and he okayed the deal at the fee we paid. To me that means he is responsible for the signing, if he didn't think Antony was an 80m player he had veto power to stop the deal, he didn't and upto today he is defending the deal betraying his part in it.
Yeah the way we refused to support him was horrendous, that second season would have got us close to title in some seasons and only didn’t because City were exceptional and got 100 points. It is also not like top 4 battle was easy that year, Chelsea in fifth got 70 points and Liverpool in 4th were at 75.
I strongly disagree. What is being discussed is how clubs for decades actually purchase players. I'm yet to see one manager from the Ferguson days till now, publicly declare they "sat in negotiations for players, whilst insisting their club pay whatever it took to get them". Not one.
All they ever say is they told the club "if you want me to succeed, that is the guy". And it was up to the club to agree. Best example I can give off the top of my head is a Fergie with all his power wanted Batistuta at all cost. The club said sorry we cant afford it. End of story. Yet that was to Fergie!
Makes one wonder how anyone can seriously imagine ETH is oh so powerful not only does he preside over negotiations he forces the club to pay whatever the cost for who he wants like its football manager.
that's a separate matter entirely
100% spot on. What is the obsession with some ETH fan boys to pretend he woke on Xmas day and found Arnold and Murtough had left Antony under his tree. Its a mix of stupidity and ignorance.
Agree with your point about how stats don't paint a full picture, so Jose actually had a lower win % and lower PPG in the season he got sacked than ETH in this current season if you refer to my earlier post in this thread. No one (incl. myself) is going to argue that ETH is a manager with more pedigree than Jose here, one could also argue as well that maybe Jose with a higher budget could've achieved even more - but ETH in this season is doing no worse than Jose did in the season he got sacked, with this season being an outlier for injuries. Looking at all this, I'd say the bigger problem at United is actually our squad.
The "total nonsense " is you actually believe the football manager style bs above . On top of the utter fiction 'Fergie nixed a deal for Hazard over agents fees' yet United simply didnt buy the player strictly because he chose Chelsea over us. On top of the fact he rated Kagawa higher and better value for money at half the price.
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Sunday evening we will most likely be 11 points behind place 4, not what I hoped for this season. With 11 rounds/33 points to play. Next to impossible imo.
Wouldn't you hope a guy we pay a rumoured £9m a year would have the wherewithal to say "hang on he's worth nowhere near that, this is a massive waste of club resources"?
It is likely that 5th place will be enough to get into Champions League so top 5 could be the new top 4.
He was nowhere near great. Fixed it for you.
You are right. Let me add three things:
1. Antony was his former player. Managers usually have direct contact with their former players, they have their cell numbers etc.
2. SEG (ETH's agents) worked on the transfer. Again, ETH had the phone numbers, contacts, etc.
3. ETH's son works at that agency as an "analyst".
It is really strange that some people still insist that ETH did not know the details, and he does not have any responsibility for the Antony transfer and for the money we paid!
As a bonus, ETH still insists that "Antony can be unstoppable", which indicates that ETH still believes that Antony is well worth the money we paid for him.
From my understanding of how they're allocated, the extra spots are currently going to Italy and Germany.
Arsenal need to turn it around against Porto or City will be the only English club left in the CL, and Brighton and West Ham are both respectively against Italian and German clubs in the Europa, so they need to win or it's just Liverpool left there too.
Well this is the distinction that you lot don't seem to get.
Regardless of connections, Ten Hag wasn't the man negotiating the deal. He might have known the details, but it was late in the window and the other option was not having anyone. He was hardly going to turn down a player he wanted, even if he thought the fee was high, when the club have said they're happy to authorise it.
Him saying he thinks Antony is good doesn't mean he thinks he was worth £80 million.
However, it's still fine to criticise how ineffective Antony has been for us, considering their history. It does suggest quite heavily that Ten Hag underestimated Antony’s actual level and/or the strength of the Premier League. It's also fine to take issue with the repeated positive comments when he's been shit for 18 months.
Despite this, the reality remains that it's ultimately on the club that we signed him, and that is the massive caveat that has to be there whenever he's discussed.
That responsibility lies with the Director of Football. A manager at a club the size of United shouldn't be telling John Murtough how to do his job properly.
ETH was 100% responsible for this deal. Of course, he did not negotiate all the details himself, and I am sure there is also an army of lawyers involved, but these are just details. ETH knew all the important parts of this deal, and the whole thing is on ETH and only on ETH.
More fool him then. Bringing Antony here for £80m+ is an embarassment.
Completely unsustainable stuff.
And @RedSky fair play for taking time to do up these spreadsheets. They must be a pain. I've seen you do far more comprehensive ones that look like a total drag.
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Insanely lucky 1 goal wins.
Agreed. Thankfully it looks like Ratcliffe is replacing him with Ashworth so hopefully we won't have another transfer window with him negotiating deals.
I meant Ten Hag
It is understandable that the Antony transfer makes ETH supporters uncomfortable.
How is it possible that a great manager like ETH could not see that Antony, his former player at Ajax, is not a great player worth 80 million? It's a paradox! Only two solutions are possible. Either Antony is a great player and we are all wrong, or ETH is not a good manager.
How is it possible that a great manager like ETH could not see that Antony, his former player at Ajax, is not a great player worth 80 million? It's a paradox! Only two solutions are possible. Either Antony is a great player and we are all wrong, or ETH is not a good manager.
The scouts had absolutely nobody on their list for the RW position? It sound unlikely considering Antony was already someone scouted by United under Ole's reign. It was probably the case that Erik simply insisted on Antony and Murtough went along with it because he was the new manager and wanted to be seen as supporting and not undermining him.
It's not the manager's job to ascertain the market value of a player. There are other people in place at football clubs who's job it is to do that.
With this I feel the club were after Antony from the start as Erik felt that he was the best out of the options given and preferred him - But given the club were slow with their negotiations, the price went up drastically (and rightly so) towards the end of the window. Could've been avoided if the negotiations team felt that this was going to go down to the wire, and got ETH to agree to one of their other options for the RW position early on - what likely happened is that they kept on going with Antony there instead of actually giving ETH some better alternatives that were not on the initial scouted list, and the club were just forced to pay over the odds. ETH should take some of that blame, but surely the club's transfer/scouting team should take some blame here too? I think on that RW position, Erik's and United's hand was forced because of the Greenwood situation + I feel like the issues with Sancho were known before ETH took over - Again, that doesn't absolve the manager/transfer team of the blame, but shows some of the trickledown negative effects of poor recruitment from previous eras.
Some of this is speculation on my part of course, but it is worth noting that most of us on this thread are speculating as to how these deals are done at United.
Still blaming ten hag for the shit club structure are we
It is the Manager’s job to assemble the best squad possible with the resources available to him. He approved spending £82m on Anthony. Not only has he been a bad signing at that price, he’s been a bad signing full stop.
If ETH isn’t responsible for signing a former player when he requested and received the final say over transfers… what exactly is he responsible for?
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