Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[VP89]

Arsenal knew when appointing him that Arteta was a young manager learning his trade. They also spent a relative pittance in his first couple of seasons, with a focus on shifting the dross and troublemakers out of the squad. Ten Hag was supposed to be the finished article. An experienced manager (he's older than Guardiola ffs) to come in and turn things around after the Ole experiment failed so horribly. He's been backed with huge funds and has spent them extremely poorly - not only failing to clear out existing dead wood, but buying a bunch more for hundreds of millions. And yes, at a serious club he'd never have been allowed to do that and should never have been here, but it doesn't change the fact that he pushed for Antony. He pushed for Mount. He pushed for Onana. He thought those were the players to take the club back to the very top level.

There's no comparison between the two. Ten Hag isn't going to improve as a manager. He's 54 years old. There's nothing beyond blind faith to suggest that he has the ability to seriously challenge for the top honours.

Again, no he wasn't. Don't make things up with bullshit revisionism. The whole excitement about Ten Hag was that he was up and coming as a coach and was ready for the next step up.
Age has feck all to do with it, he didn't manage big clubs early doors.

 

[RedRover]

If the players do not suit what you wish to do, you dial it back and bide your time until such time as you can get what you want from what you have. You don't just persist, which is where the scrutiny stands up because it is happening over and over to the point where it can be put out there as matter of fact.

By now, a lot of the criticism that comes his way is down to the predictability of what he is doing game in and game out. We shouldn't be able to pre-empt how games will go before they happen; we shouldn't be sure how formulaic what we will see is, but our lack of midfield control and teams running straight through us is endemic and a certainty; that we will be facing 15+ shots no matter who we face, is a certainty. We concede the same cutback goals more often than not. All of these things happen so routinely, the MNF piece becomes legion because, it is us and has been all season long.

Because of that piece being put out, a lot if questions can be put to the manager that people want answers to. It would even be remiss of the press to not pick up and follow on from an open goal paved for them from a fortuitous source. It's the perfect storm as far as they're concerned, but it also gives the fanbase a chance to hear what ten Hag has to say as to why he persists despite it potentially losing him his job.

This is the point - opposition teams know how we're going to play and what they need to do to counter it. And it's not just the top 6 either, it's most teams in the league. Carragher's criticisms (as much as I hate to say it) were entirely correct. We give up too many chances (as the stats show) and decent sides will punish that. We're entirely reliant on the pace upfront and/or brilliance of a couple of players to win games.

The idea that he just needs more players is bizarre - the one's he bought - presumably as they fit his system, are (with a couple of exceptions) not good enough.

You don't get 6 transfer windows in modern football before you have to achieve. That's just not how it works at any club, let alone at United or other big clubs. Top class managers assess the squad, address the needs they can and adjust around the issues they have. He hasn't done that and there is no suggestion he's going to do so.

 

[VP89]

This is the point - opposition teams know how we're going to play and what they need to do to counter it. And it's not just the top 6 either, it's most teams in the league. Carragher's criticisms (as much as I hate to say it) were correct. We give up too many chances (as the stats show) and decent sides will punish that. We're entirely reliant on the pace upfront and/or brilliance of a couple of players to win games.

The idea that he just needs more players is bizarre - the one's he bought - presumably as they fit his system, are (with a couple of exceptions) not good enough.

You don't get 6 transfer windows in modern football before you have to achieve. That's just not how it works. Top class managers assess the squad, address the needs they can and adjust around the issues they have. He hasn't done that.

He was dumpster diving for a ton of them - Eriksen on a free, Reguilon emergency, Hojlund obligated for youth projects (told he had to focus on players that might be good in a few years rather than hit the ground running), Weghorst and Amraba aren't exactly what he was going to pick if he had the money. The others like Malacia and Licha haven't even been around.

Antony sure - his mistake. Mount from Athletic looked to be a joint pursuit driven massively by Murtough who panicked and overpaid because he was scared about Liverpool nabbing him. I mean, come on

 

[stefan92]

The sentiment around Ten Hag was actually that he wasn't that experienced either, he was seen as an up and coming manager that we nabbed at the right time.

Age had feck all to do with it - his experience was limited to the Dutch league and the Bayern B team.

He didn't have PL experience, but that's it. He managed 32 CL matches before moving to United for example. Sure there are managers who have more experience which should buy him some time and acceptance for mistakes, but it's simply not comparable to someone who is starting on the job like Arteta.

 

[VP89]

He didn't have PL experience, but that's it. He managed 32 CL matches before moving to United for example. Sure there are managers who have more experience which should buy him some time and acceptance for mistakes, but it's simply not comparable to someone who is starting on the job like Arteta.

I'm not citing Ten Hag had equal experience to Arteta.
I'm saying Ten Hag was not an "finished article" coach and his experience in a traditional big league was effectively zero. I am also citing that Arteta had a ton of things his way by way of patience from the board/media and general structure to help him expedite the rise compared to Ten Hag (who by the way was much better than Arteta in year 1, and probably year 2). But no one really wants to put any weight on that.

I don't think anyone can come out with a serious face and say that operating under a CEO/DoF who don't know if they have a job the next month coupled with a structure that doesn't even have a proper scouting network is an environment of success for any coach.

 

[stefan92]

Again, no he wasn't. Don't make things up with bullshit revisionism. The whole excitement about Ten Hag was that he was up and coming as a coach and was ready for the next step up.
Age has feck all to do with it, he didn't manage big clubs early doors.

He was seen as being ready for the next step up in his career after having proven himself and developed into a proper coach. He surely wasn't a young talent who needed room to develop. That's a difference from the beginning and not revisionism. It's not contradictory to claim that he is up and coming in regard to the size of his jobs and at the same time acknowledging that he probably is (at least close to) the final product after a decade of job experience.

 

[stefan92]

I don't think anyone can come out with a serious face and say that operating under a CEO/DoF who don't know if they have a job the next month coupled with a structure that doesn't even have a proper scouting network is an environment of success for any coach.

That's actually not that much different to how things were at Utrecht afaik.

 

[VP89]

He was seen as being ready for the next step up in his career after having proven himself and developed into a proper coach. He surely wasn't a young talent who needed room to develop. That's a difference from the beginning and not revisionism. It's not contradictory to claim that he is up and coming in regard to the size of his jobs and at the same time acknowledging that he probably is (at least close to) the final product after a decade of job experience.

Yes, he was seen as being ready for the next step. Not a coach established in the next step. It was well noted he will need to adapt to the league, and adapt to a big club like Manchester United - he was basically not the finished article.

And you haven't really addressed my point about Arteta benefitting from the structure and having more leeway at a smaller club to United. Unless you agree, in which case you'd understand why I think TenHag has been judged harshly in comparison, especially when you consider he's not been as bad as Arteta in year 1 and 2 in the first place.

That's actually not that much different to how things were at Utrecht afaik.

Right, but that's not Man Utd. Heck even despite what I mentioned re. structure and uncertainty the man still got top 3 and a cup. Its only this season shits gone bad, and its in no small part down to injuries.

 

[Sarni]

The sentiment around Ten Hag was actually that he wasn't that experienced either, he was seen as an up and coming manager that we nabbed at the right time.

Age had feck all to do with it - his experience was limited to the Dutch league and the Bayern B team.

He is 54.

 

[VP89]

He is 54.

Do you know the difference between being young and being up and coming in your CV? He was inexperienced at managing in a traditional top league, or for a European giant, or in the Premier League.

When he came to England Arteta had a couple years more PL experience than him - what is your point? Age means feck all it's about what is on the CV. As much as he had some great things done, it was in leagues that were seen to be less relevant to Italy/Spain/England.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Arsenal knew when appointing him that Arteta was a young manager learning his trade. They also spent a relative pittance in his first couple of seasons, with a focus on shifting the dross and troublemakers out of the squad. Ten Hag was supposed to be the finished article. An experienced manager (he's older than Guardiola ffs) to come in and turn things around after the Ole experiment failed so horribly. He's been backed with huge funds and has spent them extremely poorly - not only failing to clear out existing dead wood, but buying a bunch more for hundreds of millions. And yes, at a serious club he'd never have been allowed to do that and should never have been here, but it doesn't change the fact that he pushed for Antony. He pushed for Mount. He pushed for Onana. He thought those were the players to take the club back to the very top level.

There's no comparison between the two. Ten Hag isn't going to improve as a manager. He's 54 years old. There's nothing beyond blind faith to suggest that he has the ability to seriously challenge for the top honours.

Thing is with Arteta he got rid of anybody he thought were going to be troublemakers and the club backed him. That left him with a squad of young players who were hungry and wanting to better themselves, then others who have good personalities. Our club has had the attitude in the past, that we can't give you a proper title challenge, but you can buy a past it legends shirt. We need a clean out of players who are too easily disenchanted. Hopefully the new footballing regime will target the right players, with the right attitude, not a bunch of know it alls who think they are bigger than the manager and know more than him. The injury issues to me are down the lack of squad depth, so certain players get overplayed, but more the training methods and medical side. The club is in a mess for the millionth time. Not sure what they will do with ETH, give him his last year and hope he has the full squad to choose from next season or get somebody else if they think he is the root of a lot of the problems.

 

[Dec9003]

They certainly haven't answered the why. They didnt talk about how Ten Hag has literally never done this and pondered "maybe this isn't what he's telling his players to do, but injuries mean he relies on squad players that simply aren't good enough to execute it".

I don’t think it’s fair to say that Ten Hag has never utilised these tactics before. I just watched a video from about four years ago, and you see a lot of similarities in terms of the shape, and how in possession we have a line of four up the pitch, creating the gap between the midfield and the defence.
The reason why we’re playing the way we are is tactical instruction to put it simply. I think it’s a tactic that probably gave him a lot of success in Holland, but hasn’t given us success this season. This can probably be partly due to not having a squad fully suited, but also with the pace of the league being how it’s possible that teams over here are better equipped to exploit the space we’re deliberately creating. In England we don’t have a technical superiority that Ten Hag was able to enjoy with Ajax, all the teams are very good bar maybe Sheffield United.
I think if Ten Hag had a rethink and adapted he could be a lot more successful, based on what we’ve seen so far he’s reluctant to do that.
Video for reference:

 

[VP89]

I don’t think it’s fair to say that Ten Hag has never utilised these tactics before. I just watched a video from about four years ago, and you see a lot of similarities in terms of the shape, and how in possession we have a line of four up the pitch, creating the gap between the midfield and the defence.
The reason why we’re playing the way we are is tactical instruction to put it simply. I think it’s a tactic that probably gave him a lot of success in Holland, but hasn’t given us success this season. This can probably be partly due to not having a squad fully suited, but also with the pace of the league being how it’s possible that teams over here are better equipped to exploit the space we’re deliberately creating. In England we don’t have a technical superiority that Ten Hag was able to enjoy with Ajax, all the teams are very good bar maybe Sheffield United.
I think if Ten Hag had a rethink and adapted he could be a lot more successful, based on what we’ve seen so far he’s reluctant to do that.
Video for reference:

That video doesn't suggest that - which bit suggests he leaves a gap between midfield and defence? Schone (one of the midfielders in the pivot) drops between the CBs)

 

[VP89]

Even Mitten, who was a Ten Hag supporter, is now reporting his job is very much under review.

He was not a ten hag fan. He slated him quite a few times, before he met him and then said nicer things.

Thats about par for Mitten, who would generally write nicer things about people once he knows them. Anka is the same.

 

[Dec9003]

That video doesn't suggest that - which bit suggests he leaves a gap between midfield and defence? Schone (one of the midfielders in the pivot) drops between the CBs)

That’s pretty much exactly how we do it though, there isn’t literally nobody in midfield, that wasn’t the case vs Fulham. Usually Cas, Mainoo, or Dalot tend to drop into the space that Schone was in from what I’ve seen.

 

[VP89]

That’s pretty much exactly how we do it though, there isn’t literally nobody in midfield, that wasn’t the case vs Fulham. Usually Cas, Mainoo, or Dalot tend to drop into the space that Schone was in from what I’ve seen.

Wait, that video doesn't suggest Ajax allow a big gap between midfield and defence, do you agree there?

 

[Dec9003]

Wait, that video doesn't suggest Ajax allow a big gap between midfield and defence, do you agree there?

No I don’t agree, you can see the space created between the lines, occupied typically by one player. I don’t think there’s a massive difference between the shape in that video and the one we take up. Watching the MNF video against Fulham to me it looks very similar, I think there are some mistakes on occasions such as in Carraghers first clip, I would think that Ten Hag expected either Mainoo or Cas to be slightly deeper to create that connection between the back and forward line.

 

[VP89]

No I don’t agree, you can see the space created between the lines, occupied typically by one player. I don’t think there’s a massive difference between the shape in that video and the one we take up. Watching the MNF video against Fulham to me it looks very similar, I think there are some mistakes on occasions such as in Carraghers first clip, I would think that Ten Hag expected either Mainoo or Cas to be slightly deeper to create that connection between the back and forward line.

Can you point out where in the video it shows that Ten Hag's Ajax leave a big gap between defence and midfield by design? Maybe I'm being a bit dim here and missed it

 

[KD6-3.7]

I just don't see any point in giving him another season, yes having a proper footballing structure behind the scenes would be great so he isn't as involved in transfers but how is that going to change what we see on the field?

 

[Dec9003]

Can you point out where in the video it shows that Ten Hag's Ajax leave a big gap between defence and midfield by design? Maybe I'm being a bit dim here and missed it

I think it’s the bit between 1:45 and about 2:12, it’s described as the midfield not dropping to deep to receive the ball, and the back three being expected to play the ball into them, with the fullbacks up high. I think the picture shown around 2:12 and the image Carragher used has big similarities, I think No21 for Ajax is how Mainoo is being used/how he’s expected to position himself just behind the forward line.

 

[Maticmaker]

Can Zidane do a build up job though? He had an already established great squad at Madrid, I don't know if he could handle a messy situation.

I can't understand why Zidane would even be interested, he's won three CL titles(on the trot!) with Real Madrid, he doesn't speak English, has no experience of the PL either as a player or coach and why would he want to join a club that at the moment cannot find its own ar** with both hands... a 'messy situation' is understating things a bit, don't you think?

 

[lsd]

What do you suggest then? Are you not seeing a pattern here? Get a new manager. Play well for him to get into his good books. Then revert to base the following season.

This is the culture here that has propagated through since SAF's retirement. We have to break this chain. Back the manager otherwise these turds are too comfortable in their role.

Backing Ten Hag is backing the wrong manager though.

Ten Hag is not the answer blindly sticking with him thinking time will make him good is insanity.

We actually look like we are doing things properly now and the only way to make use of that is getting the right manager in.

Ten Hag is another example of how poorly run we have been in hiring another manager who wasn't good enough and stupidly giving him far to much money to waste

 

[VP89]

I think it’s the bit between 1:45 and about 2:12, it’s described as the midfield not dropping to deep to receive the ball, and the back three being expected to play the ball into them, with the fullbacks up high. I think the picture shown around 2:12 and the image Carragher used has big similarities, I think No21 for Ajax is how Mainoo is being used/how he’s expected to position himself just behind the forward line.

Thanks - yes I thought might have been same part.
My point here is that the players aren't doing that, the squad players simply aren't capable. Lindelof in't going to bomb that high up the pitch, and we never have a 3 on 2 from our defence (and holding midfielder) high up the pitch.
I think the video is accurate to what Ten Hag wants to implement, but I think that's not being executed because our players simply cant do it.

 

[Fortitude]

He has no time. The posters on the forum have a proven record to whinge when they dont like something. Everyone would have just gotten upset again by saying "it's like Ole ball, we're so deep, we aren't attacking as much" etc.
His crazy system has actually yielded alright results of late, and it might yet push us to a CL position.

Sorry but given the choice between last season's set up and this, the numbers will be close to 100% in favour of last, despite some of the hammerings we got.

The greatest leverage a manager can have is winning and consistency. Ten Hag locks in a second season and effectively branches out, the majority of this season's noise doesn’t even exist.

Time in the job doing a solid job paves the way to true system implementation, and if done with the desired personnel there is tolerance, or at the least, quiet from detractors until things are going so badly their voice holds weight.

Even if the system didn't work, ten Hag's failing has been in not modifying it or even reverting to cater for it. That's why it's open season on him by now.

 

[Sarni]

Do you know the difference between being young and being up and coming in your CV? He was inexperienced at managing in a traditional top league, or for a European giant, or in the Premier League.

When he came to England Arteta had a couple years more PL experience than him - what is your point? Age means feck all it's about what is on the CV. As much as he had some great things done, it was in leagues that were seen to be less relevant to Italy/Spain/England.

Arteta had no PL experience. Being an assistant to Pep is not the same as managing a team.

Of course age is a factor. He's currently the 5th oldest manager in the league behind Klopp, Wilder, Ange and Moyes, he's not some sort of project.

Also, if you are dismissing his Ajax experience like that, then he doesn't really have anything going for him because on his time at United alone he would not be considered a good coach.

 

[VP89]

Sorry but given the choice between last season's set up and this, the numbers will be close to 100% in favour of last, despite some of the hammerings we got.

The greatest leverage a manager can have is winning and consistency. Ten Hag locks in a second season and effectively branches out, the majority of this season's noise doesn’t even exist.

Time in the job doing a solid job paves the way to true system implementation, and if done with the desired personnel there is tolerance, or at the least, quiet from detractors until things are going so badly their voice holds weight.

Even if the system didn't work, ten Hag's failing has been in not modifying it or even reverting to cater for it. That's why it's open season on him by now.

Last season relied heavily on Rashford performing for us, and I don't think it's Ten Hag's fault he literally can't be arsed to even train these days. We have a much bigger dependence on youth to carry us forward this year, and given our injuries it's not been a tricky ride.

I agree that there are patches where I felt pragmatism was the way forward, but I don't think pragmatism would have gotten much better end results (Only in the CL, I think it would have).

 

[André Dominguez]

I keep pressing F5, but this thread didn't change the title yet.

 

[VP89]

Arteta had no PL experience. Being an assistant to Pep is not the same as managing a team.

Ten Hag also had no PL experience.

But he had some experience in Netherlands - which I know you don't really rate.

 

[Sarni]

Ten Hag also had no PL experience.

But he had some experience in Netherlands - which I know you don't really rate.

No, I do actually rate experience in other leagues and Champions League. Never suggested otherwise. I think as a manager you learn on the job wherever you are, Premier League is in some ways more difficult than other leagues but most of the talented managers that have come here over the years became successful rather quickly. A few of them that were rated highly (ETH, Villas Boas, De Boer) failed.

I think his Ajax experience and success was enough to give him a shot at managing a big club and was more than happy to see him get a shot here. It was however not enough to give me 100% confidence in him under any circumstances.

 

[Fortitude]

This is the point - opposition teams know how we're going to play and what they need to do to counter it. And it's not just the top 6 either, it's most teams in the league. Carragher's criticisms (as much as I hate to say it) were entirely correct. We give up too many chances (as the stats show) and decent sides will punish that. We're entirely reliant on the pace upfront and/or brilliance of a couple of players to win games.

The idea that he just needs more players is bizarre - the one's he bought - presumably as they fit his system, are (with a couple of exceptions) not good enough.

You don't get 6 transfer windows in modern football before you have to achieve. That's just not how it works at any club, let alone at United or other big clubs. Top class managers assess the squad, address the needs they can and adjust around the issues they have. He hasn't done that and there is no suggestion he's going to do so.

And that’s the bother; if you need a perfect xi to do what you want whatever you’re doing is a redundancy out the gate. Your system and know-how should dictate and the pieces, as variable as they are, slot in and out of that.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

The restructuring of the people above him will only help him either if they are as inept as their predecessors or if they can identify and sign XI world class running machines with elite fitness and no injury concerns.

 

[Dec9003]

Thanks - yes I thought might have been same part.
My point here is that the players aren't doing that, the squad players simply aren't capable. Lindelof in't going to bomb that high up the pitch, and we never have a 3 on 2 from our defence (and holding midfielder) high up the pitch.
I think the video is accurate to what Ten Hag wants to implement, but I think that's not being executed because our players simply cant do it.

I think that is one side of it yeah, for Lindelof probably isn’t massively experienced with that part of the system, though I don’t think he was miles off either. I think we can definitely get closer to it given time, it’s just yet to be seen if it will have the same rate of success in England, I’m not personally convinced it will without some adaptation, I’m not sure what those would be, though.

 

[VP89]

No, I do actually rate experience in other leagues and Champions League. Never suggested otherwise. I think as a manager you learn on the job wherever you are, Premier League is in some ways more difficult than other leagues but most of the talented managers that have come here over the years became successful rather quickly. A few of them that were rated highly (ETH, Villas Boas, De Boer) failed.

I think his Ajax experience and success was enough to give him a shot at managing a big club and was more than happy to see him get a shot here. It was however not enough to give me 100% confidence in him under any circumstances.

And bringing it back to the discussion about Arteta getting away with 8th back to back, you think it's just because he had no experience it was alright?
I disagree massively, because there was a lot of backing and flexibility given to Arteta around throwing out rotten apples and whipping his players into shape without getting drawn into controversy. He also had fantastic support structurally and not a patch of the same injuries.

If he can get away with being 8th back to back before coming good, then Ten Hag should have a grace period of 1 season of underperformance really.

 

[VP89]

And that’s the bother; if you need a perfect xi to do what you want whatever you’re doing is a redundancy out the gate. Your system and know-how should dictate and the pieces, as variable as they are, slot in and out of that.

It's not the perfect XI, just you know, not having a semi retired guy as your only DM option or being obligated to play a CB at left back. Or at least having another striker you can count on. Just simple stuff really.

 

[Gavinb33]

They've been at that all season. Talk of the Devils had Mitten and Anka going at him early doors, which they never really did under Ole. This is why I don't listen to it much, they let their own bias get in the way of objective discussions.

As soon as we had run akin to this season under Ole he was sacked, this guy is still the manager so of course its different you think if Ole remained manager after Watford (iirc) he wouldn't face this type of questioning from the press

 

[Sarni]

And bringing it back to the discussion about Arteta getting away with 8th back to back, you think it's just because he had no experience it was alright?
I disagree massively, because there was a lot of backing and flexibility given to Arteta around throwing out rotten apples and whipping his players into shape without getting drawn into controversy. He also had fantastic support structurally and not a patch of the same injuries.

If he can get away with being 8th back to back before coming good, then Ten Hag should have a grace period of 1 season of underperformance really.

Arteta had no experience whatsoever. He never managed a club, he was 37, when Arsenal brought him they must have at the same time accepted that he was going to have a learning curve, which is perfectly acceptable for a coach that young with no experience. Emery was not offered the same level of patience and had different expectations.

The bolded is your wishful thinking though, because you are absolutely in love with Ten Hag and don't want to see him go, truth is no top club does that pretty much ever. Arteta is an exception. You cannot normally write off seasons and let managers learn on the job.

 

[VP89]

As soon as we had run akin to this season under Ole he was sacked, this guy is still the manager so of course its different you think if Ole remained manager after Watford (iirc) he wouldn't face this type of questioning from the press

Don't see the two as that comparable - Ole had Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo expected to push for the league after 3 years in charge. TenHag made some big signings but 1 has been unavailable all season, as is his defence, and even in spite of that I'd be curious to see the points per game for the pair.

 

[VP89]

Arteta had no experience whatsoever. He never managed a club, he was 37, when Arsenal brought him they must have at the same time accepted that he was going to have a learning curve, which is perfectly acceptable for a coach that young with no experience.

The bolded is your wishful thinking to be fair, because you are absolutely in love with Ten Hag, truth is no top club does that pretty much ever. Arteta is an exception.

And despite the no experience point, he still had immense structure and leeway, which Ten Hag didn't have.

Your bold point is what I'm citing hypocricy on. If Ten Hag gets compared to De Boer its fair game. If he gets compared to Arteta it doesn't fly. Arteta was an exception

 

[Sarni]

And despite the no experience point, he still had immense structure and leeway, which Ten Hag didn't have.

Your bold point is what I'm citing hypocricy on. If Ten Hag gets compared to De Boer its fair game. If he gets compared to Arteta it doesn't fly. Arteta was an exception

There are way more De Boers, i.e. managers that struggle under more difficult circumstances despite their previous success at smaller clubs and never figure it out, than there are Artetas, i.e. managers that go through a period of struggle only to figure it out.

In fact there's only one Arteta in recent years, while we can easily name several De Boers.

Even in Arteta's case, his second year was better than his first year, and his third year better than second, and he won FA Cup in his first year beating City and Chelsea in great fashion which helped him massively. If ETH wins FA Cup this year, beating Liverpool and Man City in good fashion, he will keep his job I'm sure.

 

[VP89]

There are way more De Boers, i.e. managers that struggle under more difficult circumstances despite their previous success at smaller clubs and never figure it out, than there are Artetas, i.e. managers that go through a period of struggle only to figure it out.

In fact there's only one Arteta in recent years, while we can easily name several De Boers.

You've got De Boer and AVB, that's essentially it by way of managers winning big cups in other leagues and failing here.