Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Sarni]

You've got De Boer and AVB, that's essentially it by way of managers winning big cups in other leagues and failing here.

Sarri, Emery also failed at big clubs in England in recent years despite their previous success. Emery has managed to recoup his reputation by his spell at Villa somewhat.

I'm not getting into smaller club managers like Bilic, Gerrard coming from other leagues and failing, and a host of managers who tried to make a step up within PL and failed (like Silva trying to go from Watford to Everton), because that's a different job altogether.

Outside of PL you have numerous managers getting a run at big clubs after impressing for smaller teams, and failing.

Failures are just much more frequent than successes.

 

[Sarni]

You've got De Boer and AVB, that's essentially it by way of managers winning big cups in other leagues and failing here.

Also, I think FA Cup run may have saved Arteta's job as it proved he could go toe to toe with the big teams and edge them in crucial moments. Similar to how Mourinho may have been saved by Europa League win in his first season as league performance was lacking. League Cup win quite obviously does not have the same weight.

 

[VP89]

Sarri, Emery also failed at big clubs in England in recent years despite their previous success. I'm not getting into smaller club managers like Bilic, Gerrard coming from other leagues and failing, and a host of managers who tried to make a step up within PL and failed (like Silva trying to go from Watford to Everton).

Outside of PL you have numerous managers getting a run at big clubs after impressing for smaller teams, and failing.

You're really stretching this remit aren't you?
Sarri hadn't won any domestic league pre Chelsea, and he won the Europa & came 3rd while he was there. What on earth?! Also Emery - and it could fairly be argued he had less patience given to him than Arteta, weirdly. Emery is actually proving to be a big success in the Premier League right now, so that puts quite the dent in your argument.

Gerrard, fecking hell, really? How can you say you value the Dutch league and then compare it to the SPL Same goes for Bilic.


You're just naming managers who have been given a punt, not managers who have had some established pedigree in European recognition and failed. There's only 2 of that ilk and that's De Boer (at an absolute stretch, don't even think he was that big a deal back then) & AVB. Emery is actually a success here, and he wasn't given the time and patience Arteta was at Arsenal, weirdly.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Sarri, Emery also failed at big clubs in England in recent years despite their previous success. Emery has managed to recoup his reputation by his spell at Villa somewhat.

I'm not getting into smaller club managers like Bilic, Gerrard coming from other leagues and failing, and a host of managers who tried to make a step up within PL and failed (like Silva trying to go from Watford to Everton), because that's a different job altogether.

Outside of PL you have numerous managers getting a run at big clubs after impressing for smaller teams, and failing.

Failures are just much more frequent than successes.

Sarri won Europa and came 3rd, he did pretty well.

 

[VP89]

Also, I think FA Cup run may have saved Arteta's job as it proved he could go toe to toe with the big teams and edge them in crucial moments. Similar to how Mourinho may have been saved by Europa League win in his first season as league performance was lacking. League Cup win quite obviously does not have the same weight.

It doesn't. But League cup and 3rd place in the PL means a lot more than an FA Cup and no European football. I'd take the former every day of the week as a fan & as an owner objectively evaluating the pedigree of my coach.

 

[Melville Red]

I'm not citing Ten Hag had equal experience to Arteta.
I'm saying Ten Hag was not an "finished article" coach and his experience in a traditional big league was effectively zero. I am also citing that Arteta had a ton of things his way by way of patience from the board/media and general structure to help him expedite the rise compared to Ten Hag (who by the way was much better than Arteta in year 1, and probably year 2). But no one really wants to put any weight on that.

I don't think anyone can come out with a serious face and say that operating under a CEO/DoF who don't know if they have a job the next month coupled with a structure that doesn't even have a proper scouting network is an environment of success for any coach.

Fair enough but that doesn’t excuse ETH for the lack of coaching on the training ground. We complain about the style of play and if players know what they are supposed to do on the pitch, that’s just basic training and we appear to have gone backwards with players either not giving a shit or are just confused as to what to do, it all boils down to the coaching and ETH is the head coach and needs to take responsibility and improve the basics. If he can’t do this then he needs to:go.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

For the comedy duo @VP89 and @BenitoSTARR . Yes I'm well aware that the team with the most points wins the league (not sure why you're rambling on about win % which in the end just correlates to points).

This came from me saying that GD over a season is a better indicator of future perfomance than points (or win % if you really want). I provided an article to back up my claim, you dismissed it. Back it up.

You're the biggest comedian here. You were insufferable during the dog shit Ole era.

 

[VP89]

Fair enough but that doesn’t excuse ETH for the lack of coaching on the training ground. We complain about the style of play and if players know what they are supposed to do on the pitch, that’s just basic training and we appear to have gone backwards with players either not giving a shit or are just confused as to what to do, it all boils down to the coaching and ETH is the head coach and needs to take responsibility and improve the basics. If he can’t do this then he needs to:go.

Again, there are two ways of looking at it. He has what, 6ish years of great pedigree at coaching players but this year amid a ton of injuries and having a squad that have form for not being bothered, the system looks shite.
I think his coaching isnt the issue, but our squad quality and availability is the issue.

You can have the best coach in the world but if you have a feckton of injuries, your system will be cut open more times than not.

 

[Sarni]

You're really stretching this remit aren't you?
Sarri hadn't won any domestic league pre chelsea. Nor did Emery - and it could fairly be argued he had less patience given to him than Arteta, weirdly. Emery is actually proving to be a big success in the Premier League right now, so that puts quite the dent in your argument.

Gerrard, fecking hell, really? How can you say you value the Dutch league and then compare it to the SPL Same goes for Bilic.


You're just naming managers who have been given a punt, not managers who have had some established pedigree in European recognition and failed. There's only 2 of that ilk and that's De Boer (at an absolute stretch, don't even think he was that big a deal back then) & AVB. Emery is actually a success here, and he wasn't given the time and patience Arteta was at Arsenal, weirdly.

Emery won Europa League numerous times which is arguably a much bigger achievement than winning Eredivisie with Ajax. He's doing well a tier below in PL, i.e. at a team that does not aspire to win the league eventually. I don't think he would have figured out the whole Arsenal thing, he did not seem to be getting better at that.

Also, you may want to form one opinion on ETH's prior experience. Either he came here inexperienced like Arteta and we should not have set high expectations, or he has significant reputation from his Ajax success and deserves a shot based on that.

 

[Sarni]

It doesn't. But League cup and 3rd place in the PL means a lot more than an FA Cup and no European football. I'd take the former every day of the week as a fan & as an owner objectively evaluating the pedigree of my coach.

Yes, if that was not followed by a total collapse the next year. Last season was decent/good.

 

[VP89]

Emery won Europa League numerous times which is arguably a much bigger achievement than winning Eredivisie with Ajax. He's doing well a tier below in PL, i.e. at a team that does not aspire to win the league eventually. I don't think he would have figured out the whole Arsenal thing, he did not seem to be getting better at that.

Also, you may want to form one opinion on ETH's prior experience. Either he came here inexperienced like Arteta and we should not have set high expectations, or he has significant reputation from his Ajax success and deserves a shot based on that.

Mate you cannot come out and call Emery a flop in the Premier League - that is objectively just wrong. Especially considering Arteta came in and was worse for 2 years before it got better post Arsenal. The sentiment for 2 years from their own fans was "we should have just stuck with Emery".

 

[VP89]

Yes, if that was not followed by a total collapse the next year. Last season was decent/good.

Right, so if Arteta had FA Cup to buy him time in the next year, where he still finished 8th. Why should a better debut season from Ten Hag not buy him time in a season where he's likely going to finish better than 8th?

 

[Sarni]

Right, so if Arteta had FA Cup to buy him time in the next year, where he still finished 8th. Why should a better debut season from Ten Hag not buy him time in a season where he's likely going to finish better than 8th?

Maybe it will. I don’t think it should.

 

[VP89]

Maybe it will. I don’t think it should.

Yes, because Arteta was an exception and the others aren't. Its hypocrisy but whatever

 

[edgecutter]

I would have major sympathy for Ten Hag, as the club is a basket case and it should never have given him the keys to dictate signings.

That said, he got the players he wanted and paid a fortune for many of them. Most of these players are now deadwood for the next manager and I never thought any manager after ole could assembly such a poor squad after paying 400 million in 2 years, that takes an absurd level of incompetence.

His tactics are awful, and some of our play is pretty dire to watch which is criminal from a manager that now has plenty of time to get it right on training pitch. His time is up, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets the boot tonight if we don't progress.

 

[Leftback99]

You're the biggest comedian here. You were insufferable during the dog shit Ole era.

The punchline being that I was right all along. We're no better off for sacking him.

 

[redcucumber]

Right, so if Arteta had FA Cup to buy him time in the next year, where he still finished 8th. Why should a better debut season from Ten Hag not buy him time in a season where he's likely going to finish better than 8th?

Were Arsenal as disastrous as we have been this season? Where you finish in the table can sometimes be a bit of a misnomer. They finished with 16+ GD and conceded 39 goals. We've currently got 0 GD having conceded 36 goals.

 

[VP89]

I would have major sympathy for Ten Hag, as the club is a basket case and it should never have given him the keys to dictate signings.

That said, he got the players he wanted and paid a fortune for many of them. Most of these players are now deadwood for the next manager and I never thought any manager after ole could assembly such a poor squad after paying 400 million in 2 years, that takes an absurd level of incompetence.

His tactics are awful, and some of our play is pretty dire to watch which is criminal from a manager that now has plenty of time to get it right on training pitch. His time is up, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets the boot tonight if we don't progress.

Not quite - Amrabat, Reguilon, Weghorst were dumpster dives. Casemiro wasn't exactly his choice - he said he really needed a DM and the club turned to Casemiro because that's the extent of their scouting competence. Antony is 100% on him, but come on, that's not representative of every transfer.

The punchline being that I was right all along. We're no better off for sacking him.

Eh? That's bullshite, we got into the CL places and won a cup immediately after sacking him

 

[Di Maria's angel]

The punchline being that I was right all along. We're no better off for sacking him.

We were spiralling under Ole. We're shite now, too. So i don't really disagree with your overarching opinion of ETH.

 

[Berbaclass]

The punchline being that I was right all along. We're no better off for sacking him.

People on here are more interested in being right or saying I told you so than the team doing well.

 

[VP89]

People on here are more interested in being right or saying I told you so than the team doing well.

The funny thing is he wasn't even right either

 

[Melville Red]

Again, there are two ways of looking at it. He has what, 6ish years of great pedigree at coaching players but this year amid a ton of injuries and having a squad that have form for not being bothered, the system looks shite.
I think his coaching isnt the issue, but our squad quality and availability is the issue.

You can have the best coach in the world but if you have a feckton of injuries, your system will be cut open more times than not.

Yes we have had injuries but we really should be able to cope if the players that come in know that there is a certain way the team plays and play to that pattern.
Just look at the scousers against Chelsea at the weekend, Liverpool we’re well under strength but still won on a big stage, we would have been so fecked even by Chelsea the players would have come off at full time with arses resembling a blood orange.

 

[Leftback99]

The funny thing is he wasn't even right either

That anyone thinks we're in a better position now after another £400m down the pan is hilarious.

 

[Berbaclass]

That anyone thinks we're in a better position now after another £400m down the pan is hilarious.

Define better position?

 

[Member 128571]

In almost two seasons he hasn't shown me anything to justify his appointment.
My overall impression of him is 'horribly out of his depth'.

We're 18 months in and even the best experts can't tell what his tactical approach at United is, because he doesn't really seem to have one, other than to throw McTominay into that #10 role to score goals.

His transfer business as head of recruitment has been absolutely shocking. We've had arguably the two worst transfer periods ever as a club under his reign.
With tight FFP regulations breathing down our neck he chose to absolutely waste the remaining money on horrendous signings. Apart from Rasmus all of his signings failed and they cost an arm and a leg.

His inconsistency in player treatment is another thing. The likes of Sancho, Iqbal and Henderson got shown the door pretty quickly, while Rashford and possibly Varane seem to get an 'out of jail-card' every time they misbehave or fall out with the manager.
It makes him look weak and clueless imo.
You should have the same measure and the same standard with everyone as the manager, whether it's Manucho or Lionel feckin' Messi.
It was right to get Sancho and the others out, but it was wrong to stick with Rashford, Antony and probably Varane for way too long.
They have disrespected him, the team and in Rashford's case the fans on more than one occasion and he's still playing them.

All in all I absolutely don't think he's the right man for the job.

Communications: C
Tactics: D
Transfers: E
Player Handling: D
Success: C-

Time to move on in the summer, it won't improve if he gets a third season. His personality won't change all of a sudden, he won't turn into Ancelotti or Pep in terms of tactical ability and a semi-lost dressing room won't help us either for 24/25.

I'm sure Berrada/ Brailsford/ Ratcliffe will find a suitable replacement.

 

[soapythecat]

He hasn't shown anything like being adaptive enough with this bunch of players to suggest he can get it right with more players. He's persisted with underperformers like Rashford, when others have been available. He's made ridiculous decisions (Like starting Pallestri against Bayern but not other teams) that have had the whole fan base confused as to what he wants from his team.
To trust ETH with more players and potentially clearing out players who might be useful would be a mistake in my eyes. He's not trusted to adapt or even choose the right players. He has to go - he hasn't shown anything after his first 3 months here to suggest otherwise.

 

[VP89]

That anyone thinks we're in a better position now after another £400m down the pan is hilarious.

Ten Hag walked in and got 3rd place and a cup in year 1. He has fought injuries and yes dipped this season but that does not mean we would have been better under Ole What an insane thing to suggest.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yes we have had injuries but we really should be able to cope if the players that come in know that there is a certain way the team plays and play to that pattern.
Just look at the scousers against Chelsea at the weekend, Liverpool we’re well under strength but still won on a big stage, we would have been so fecked even by Chelsea the players would have come off at full time with arses resembling a blood orange.

Liverpool won because Chelsea were wasteful, but also that no matter who comes into that Liverpool team, they know what job they have to do and their manager is a great man motivator.

 

[Leftback99]

Ten Hag walked in and got 3rd place and a cup in year 1. He has fought injuries and yes dipped this season but that does not mean we would have been better under Ole What an insane thing to suggest.

Yeah it's 'insane' to think that anyone could serve up worse than the dross we've seen this season after spending £400m .

 

[VP89]

Yeah it's 'insane' to think that anyone could serve up worse than the dross we've seen this season after spending £400m .

He didn't spend £400m to outdo Ole in 1 year by winning a cup and finishing 1pt higher than Ole's best season. Also, money wasted is pretty normal pre Ten Hag. Weird for you to suddenly cry about it when Ole wasted £50m a pop on AWB and Maguire who aren't suited for most progressive teams, whilst splashing 70-80m money on a dickhead who can't even wake up on time.

But yes, it is absolutely insane to think Ole - a man who couldn't even discipline his own players and let them do what the feck they wanted, who was on a downward spiral seeing his team not even bother to fight for games, would actually do better than Ten Hag did so far.

 

[Alex99]

Ten Hag walked in and got 3rd place and a cup in year 1. He has fought injuries and yes dipped this season but that does not mean we would have been better under Ole What an insane thing to suggest.

About the only argument I can make for Solskjaer is that he'd have probably improved results and performances if he abandoned the attempts at a more proactive, pressing style, and reverted to what was working well before.

The issue there (aside from dealing with Ronaldo) is where we'd find ourselves amongst Arsenal, Newcastle, Villa, Spurs, etc.

It's obvious he'd taken as us far as he could, even if it transpires that Ten Hag isn't the man for the job either.

 

[Leftback99]

He didn't spend £400m to outdo Ole in 1 year by winning a cup and finishing 1pt higher than Ole's best season. Also, money wasted is pretty normal pre Ten Hag. Weird for you to suddenly cry about it when Ole wasted £50m a pop on AWB and Maguire who aren't suited for most progressive teams, whilst splashing 70-80m money on a dickhead who can't even wake up on time.

But yes, it is absolutely insane to think Ole - a man who couldn't even discipline his own players and let them do what the feck they wanted, who was on a downward spiral seeing his team not even bother to fight for games, would actually do better than Ten Hag did so far.

Upping it to 'absolutely insane' to think that we could better than this. I think I'll leave it there.

 

[VP89]

About the only argument I can make for Solskjaer is that he'd have probably improved results and performances if he abandoned the attempts at a more proactive, pressing style, and reverted to what was working well before.

The issue there (aside from dealing with Ronaldo) is where we'd find ourselves amongst Arsenal, Newcastle, Villa, Spurs, etc.

It's obvious he'd taken as us far as he could, even if it transpires that Ten Hag isn't the man for the job either.

But there is literally nothing to suggest this. He tried a high press at the end and we looked worse. He also didnt have the coaching nous and openly devalued the importance of tactics in winning a game. I don't think he's capable of actually implementing a progressive style, which is why we were a counter attack FC side for 3 years.

 

[VP89]

Upping it to 'absolutely insane' to think that we could better than this. I think I'll leave it there.

Yes, please do. It's actually crazy you want to whinge about Ten Hag but forget Ole won feck all, allowed our squad mentality to literally rot, allowed brands to run the roost and bought shit players himself. The sheer audacity to think he'd suddenly win a cup and get us into top 4 after that joke of a season and bottling cups in every season since. Damn, lets just leave it there.

 

[Sarni]

Yes, because Arteta was an exception and the others aren't. Its hypocrisy but whatever

You trying to argue that the only manager in the last 20 years that has been given the amount of time well beyond what a big club would normally be able to afford, and gone on to repay that with eventual success, is not an exception. There is not another manager that this pattern would apply to, it is literally textbook definition of exception.

 

[Alex99]

But there is literally nothing to suggest this. He tried a high press at the end and we looked worse. He also didnt have the coaching nous and openly devalued the importance of tactics in winning a game. I don't think he's capable of actually implementing a progressive style, which is why we were a counter attack FC side for 3 years.

Eh? I know he couldn't do it, which is why I said he might have turned it around (a bit) if he'd gone back to counter-attack FC.

However, (and as I also said) being counter-attack FC would probably see us struggling to keep pace with Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, Villa, etc. who have entered the discussion for CL places since his sacking, so the degree in which he turned it around with counter-attack FC was likely to be severely limiter anyway. We'd probably be pissing about with Brighton and West Ham in hope of a Europa League place at the absolute best, if not keeping Chelsea company in the bottom half.

 

[Sarni]

Eh? I know he couldn't do it, which is why I said he might have turned it around (a bit) if he'd gone back to counter-attack FC.

However, (and as I also said) being counter-attack FC would probably see us struggling to keep pace with Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, Villa, etc. who have entered the discussion for CL places since his sacking, so the degree in which he turned it around with counter-attack FC was likely to be severely limiter anyway. We'd probably be pissing about with Brighton and West Ham in hope of a Europa League place at the absolute best, if not keeping Chelsea company in the bottom half.

Yeah Ole would not have this team in top 4 and it would be miserable too. No point lamenting his exit as he was never the long term solution.

 

[VP89]

You trying to argue that the only manager in the last 20 years that has been given the amount of time well beyond what a big club would normally be able to afford, and gone on to repay that with eventual success, is not an exception. There is not another manager that this pattern would apply to, it is literally textbook definition of exception.

I'm trying to argue that if you want to point to AVB as a guy who won league titles and was well established in Europe, only to come here and fail - then I can do the same for Arteta.
You can't just say "look at this guy, see, it means nothing" but then say "oh no don't use Arteta in the comparison, its an exception".

When asked for other examples of such failures, you put in two managers who actually did well in the Premier League, which dented your logic further.

Eh? I know he couldn't do it, which is why I said he might have turned it around (a bit) if he'd gone back to counter-attack FC.

However, (and as I also said) being counter-attack FC would probably see us struggling to keep pace with Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, Villa, etc. who have entered the discussion for CL places since his sacking, so the degree in which he turned it around with counter-attack FC was likely to be severely limiter anyway. We'd probably be pissing about with Brighton and West Ham in hope of a Europa League place at the absolute best, if not keeping Chelsea company in the bottom half.

Ah, yes I agree, I think we'd actually be worse than Brighton level had we stuck with Ole. The lack of discipline in the squad just got way to out of hand. Imagine needing an experienced player like Matic to do your job and hand out fines for late comers.

 

[Leftback99]

Yeah Ole would not have this team in top 4 and it would be miserable too. No point lamenting his exit as he was never the long term solution.

He wasn't and I've never said he was but neither is Ten Hag so we've gone nowhere.

 

[VP89]

He wasn't and I've never said he was but neither is Ten Hag so we've gone nowhere.

So you agree Ole wouldn't have got this team back into top 4. Getting there.