Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
I think people look back on history with a different view all the time. Ajax was always finishing 2nd even before he took over, and with some good players, good setup with Overmars, they made that difference and got them to the title. One good run in the CL. Maybe we all just fell for the hype back then.
I completely understand, and do actually agree with you. At least mostly.
All the stats you bring up are true (obviously, they're stats). But over 18 months into his reign and it's been the same all the way through really. Overperfoming xG scored and conceded. When something happens for 18 months, how much of a fluke is it?
Yeah and took over in preseason meaning he was allowed to make alterations to the squad (which was already much better than Liverpool’s to begin with), but do not let that get into the way of anything. ETH has been better than Klopp.ETH has managed 64 PL games though right
It's the gaping holes in midfield that are the problem. Not the holes in the squad.
The CB's are more often than not on the halfway line they can't go any higher, but they have zero protection Infront of them we basically play with 2 8's and a ten in midfield with high wingers and high sometimes inverted full backs.
And what reward do we get for all that risk? Naff all, it's not as if we are a good attacking side either. The high press is decent at times, but and half decent side can bypass it regularly and low and behold we concede chances at will.
We've underperformed our xG scored both seasons, and overperformed. Defensively we're on pace to pretty much double the extent of overperformance compared to last season though.
But it's just stats that show it's not sustainable. You can't consistently overperform stuff like that, it turns eventually. Look at 17/18, de Gea was godly and we conceded over 15 goals fewer than our xG. The next season we underperformed our xG conceded. The 3 seasons after we were basically dead even to xG conceded. It's just something that goes up and down, you might get lucky for a while but it's not a viable tactic, and you hope to sort out the issue before the problem catches up to you.
They didnt make the UCL for a number of years so to get to a semi and last 16 in 4 years is a good return. Silly to say otherwise when they were not spending crazy money and their better players were being poached
I don’t think it’s as sad as previous as Ineos aren’t here to make decisions on whims & cow-tow to reactionary opinions.
They talk so much about the long term, I doubt it’s a case of us scraping Champions League meaning he’d keep the job.
It's baffling that anyone is defending what we're seeing with 'yeah but injuries and structure'. Completely misses the point.
In theory. Why keep trying to build the same puzzle when you can't get the pieces you need though?
Our squad is not built to do the things Ten Hag wants. There's no real pace or passing ability in the back line. Take one or two starters out and whatever press resistance exists goes out the window.
I agree, ideally, we'd have four, fast ball playing centre backs: Two left footed, two right. We'd have top attacking full backs with insane output as well as pace and physicality. We'd have more than one central midfielder who's calm under pressure and two, quality workhorses to choose from as a partner. Plus forwards who use the ball well and more than one central striking option that we can play off.
But we do not have that.
Nor does it look like we will have that in the near term. So why keep persisting with an approach that cannot get the best out of what we have?
We all know that the club needed to do better refreshing the squad. But it hasn't. Feels like Ten Hag is managing the squad he'd like to have not the one he actually has.
The midfield being empty is a symptom anyway it doesn’t really matter because the end result is the same. Poor rest defence and poor structure for dealing with the counter.
The thing is though the defensive line is more of an issue than the midfield setup in the cause
It's hard to argue with some of the analysis we see on MNF. Yes of course some of it is soundbite and sensationalist, it's dangerous to look at clips in isolation and judge that as what the status quo is. However does it come as any coincidence we have conceded so many shots when we see how we are set up. How many goals have we conceded this season from shots on the edge of the box, not because this is world class football we are up against, it's midfielders not knowing their jobs and not tracking the runners.
I am all for high intensity football but that should not mean your full backs are playing so high that they get muscle injuries sprinting back. Thats not high intensity, it's insanity.
Bruno plays best when he has green grass in front of him but we are seeing him play more and more on the last line back to goal rather than prime creator.
I really wanted it to work for ETH but I actually think we look worse off now in every department than this time last year. The football isn't great on the eye either.
I am all for high intensity football but that should not mean your full backs are playing so high that they get muscle injuries sprinting back. Thats not high intensity, it's insanity.
Bruno plays best when he has green grass in front of him but we are seeing him play more and more on the last line back to goal rather than prime creator.
I really wanted it to work for ETH but I actually think we look worse off now in every department than this time last year. The football isn't great on the eye either.
I only posted to make a small point not to agree with ETH by the way.
I have no idea why he has not adjusted to compensate.
However it is true that the latter option is likely better for the longer term.
Our fullbacks don’t player higher than other top sides in the league by the way
Forget Lindelof cos he isn't a full back, but I'd guess our FBs don't show for the ball as much as at those top sides unless it is right at the back.
By fact, teams who have gotten results off of us have come out and categorically stated why and how and that it was all to their plan - watch that MNF and envisage far more detailed information being delivered to teams we're facing, geeing them up and giving them very clear objectives and belief to go into the game with.
Because we have no clue how to kill games we're up in, these teams are also enthused to keep going all game where they mightn't verses other sides who will have them playing chase, further demoralising them more often than not.
Our tactics and tactical setup are fuel for opposing sides to go at it all game and not have their heads drop.
Because we have no clue how to kill games we're up in, these teams are also enthused to keep going all game where they mightn't verses other sides who will have them playing chase, further demoralising them more often than not.
Our tactics and tactical setup are fuel for opposing sides to go at it all game and not have their heads drop.
No but our entire midfield does.
Just look at the tactics and instructions, you will know why we are trash. It is always 5-6 versus 3-4 at the back, we are crave open everytime we lose the ball. Even a simple corner for us will lead to a scoring chance the other end, can Erik tell me how many scoring have we score from setpiece? If we aren't scoring then why are we commiting so many players in the box? Most teams have better corners threat than United. Lastly, there is lack of effort from players. Likes of Rashford, Bruno and Garnacho will not defend for the whole game. They might defend in the 1st half as the game wore on, they will stop running back. Erik is out of his depth, I hope Ratcliffe can put him out of his misery (us as well). It is really hard to be a fan when your club has fallen so badly.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 18,525
- Supports
️
Glad you’re on board.
Check how many loans we’ve had to have over his reign:
- Amrabat - loan
- Reguilón - loan
- Weghorst - loan
- Dubravka - loan
- Sabitzer - loan
- Butland - loan
Last time… Ten Hag doesn’t write the cheques.
I agree for most clubs it’s sufficient to sign good players but who is in charge of the fees we pay?
You’re ignoring once again the fact your team has been built over 4 years.
We didn’t have both Mount and Mainoo available at the same time.
You’ve performed well because you’ve been able to play consistently your best players. Saliba last time I checked had 100% available mins share. Saka was 90%+ etc. Of course player quality results in missing them more?
I disagree with "putting us out of our misery" posts.
I'm Manchester United fan and it's never a misery. My favourite club is not entitled to success. It needs to be deserved and worked hard for. And I'm there for it.
Someimes It's difficult, frustrating and angering to lose or watch the team have bad performance.
But it's always easy to be a fan and supporter.
Believe we'll be on top again.
If ETH doesn't take us there, somebody else will! Sooner or later.
Have faith and stay positive. We're Manchester United and we'll do what we want.
With or without Erik I firmly believe good times are coming soon.
Cheers everyone!
I'm Manchester United fan and it's never a misery. My favourite club is not entitled to success. It needs to be deserved and worked hard for. And I'm there for it.
Someimes It's difficult, frustrating and angering to lose or watch the team have bad performance.
But it's always easy to be a fan and supporter.
Believe we'll be on top again.
If ETH doesn't take us there, somebody else will! Sooner or later.
Have faith and stay positive. We're Manchester United and we'll do what we want.
With or without Erik I firmly believe good times are coming soon.
Cheers everyone!
Then what are you saying when you say "They're not all ETH's either"? Like, that's understood - seldom are all members of a first team squad brought by one/specific manager.
Your statement spoke of a common denominator dating back 10 years - absolving the manager and pointing towards the players. That's not applicable when the squad is not the same or even that similar to the ones previous managers dealt with - and is largely the current manager's.
The players are clearly trying - it was the reason why we managed to put the together the 5 wins going into the Fulham game. I don't know how anyone can seriously argue they've downed tools. But like in any other profession people will lose faith in leadership, if said leadership is ineffective/doesn't produce results
I have no idea what this means.
All good. It is a colloquialism - but I often forget the people on redcafe are usually an older demographic.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
One thing I will say, though - I admire your loyalty. The main reason I’m here is that Arsenal-Mania becomes toxic the moment there is the slightest blip. You and others have name-checked Edu as one of the catalysts of Arsenal improvement… the man still has haters amongst the Arsenal support. When he won the award for Sporting Director of the Year, most of the naysayers were Gooners.
Patience is short supply all over, so I actually hope ETH does turn it around and pay back the faith that’s been shown in him (hopefully you don’t finish above Arsenal - obviously).
How is this not largely his squad?
Hojlund
Antony
Casemiro
Mount
Amrabat
Lisandro
Onana
Malacia
Bayindir
Eriksen
Evans
Mainoo - he promoted him and gave him his debut
No longer here: Reguilon (included him here because he was part of the squad this season. Didn't include the likes of Weghorst or Sabitzer etc)
This is a point you're making now. Not the point I contested when you interjected. I disagree with the assessment in your last paragraph as well, but that's dragging the conversation elsewhere.
Read above
This is good example. The cowardice of our CB to play high line is huge issue here.
Ten Hag is persistent to play high line and high press despite not having the profile this season and I don’t disagree with it because this will give better pictures to the board that we need to sell them and buy new players who can and wants to play high line and high press.
That Jamie Carragher analysis is long overdo. The gaps in midfield are fecking horrific.
I mentioned in the match day thread the other day that Mainoo had the ball near the half way line, there were 5 Fulham players near him and not a single united player in shot. What kind of tactics are these? It's happened for long enough now for it not to be an isolated incident.
I'm baffled at anyone who thinks ETH is the man for the job. These tactics are suicidal and there's no surprise that every team dominated us.
Also the fact they mentioned that it could be causing injuries has been one of my queries all season. It can't just be bad luck, the style of play is causing some of these injuries
I mentioned in the match day thread the other day that Mainoo had the ball near the half way line, there were 5 Fulham players near him and not a single united player in shot. What kind of tactics are these? It's happened for long enough now for it not to be an isolated incident.
I'm baffled at anyone who thinks ETH is the man for the job. These tactics are suicidal and there's no surprise that every team dominated us.
Also the fact they mentioned that it could be causing injuries has been one of my queries all season. It can't just be bad luck, the style of play is causing some of these injuries
Like I've said previously, he needs to heavily change the approach and not cede control and possession to any team we face. That's the single biggest issue.
He also has Onana and Mainoo now, compared to last year. They are two players who significantly improve us in possession, the build-up phase, and could help exert control over our opponents. The squad is still lacking a lot, and last season was even worse, so I could accept him being pragmatic then, but it really should be getting better by now. Even if we were 5th or 6th right now, with the same points tally, but better performances where we are in control of our games, I don't think the situation would be as melancholic as it is now.
Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think he's a lost cause, but it really boggles the mind why he's setting us up this way.
You can only say "we've had injures" for so long.
Either the players still don't understand what they are supposed to be doing in this system or the system just fundamentally doesn't work in the premier league.
We have so many players not putting in the running which makes me think either they
He won't play Onana as a sweeper again any time soon. He does not have the players for it. All of our fit defenders are not good enough with the ball in possession and routinely misplace simple passes. With Onana outside the penalty area that would look bobbins
We’ve already heard rumours of players not liking Erik’s style, not having him, not respecting him etc. I’d say that the players putting in the most effort consistently are Martinez, Antony, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund and Bruno. They are tenHags signings, his promoted youth players and his captain. The players who get stick for not trying are the ones who have been here the longest - Rashford, Martial, Shaw etc. Why would that be?
I spoke of a culture at the club. It doesn’t matter how long a player has been at the club if the ethos isn’t right, and clearly for many years now our club culture has been poor.
I don’t doubt they are trying, I don’t believe they have ‘downed tools’ and I don’t think I said that. I do believe that a good proportion of this squad simply isn’t good enough to be challenging for top honours.
The gaping hole in midfield is not as simple as it seems. ETH and his coach team definitely knew it from game to game, but he insisted playing like that. The hole is so obvious over there every time when we had unexpected turnovers of balls. The question becomes why the unexpected ball turnovers happen so often. Technical ability, space occupying, and passing with mutual understanding are critical across the team. With the players we have, how to deliver the messages and approaches not so complicated to understand across the team are important. Maybe ETH needs more time to get the players fully understood what to do in so many different scenarios fanned out in any real game. But as we saw already, the reality is that our players run forward and backward so often due to the high turnover of ball. It is probably the most reasonable explanation that we had so many injuries with the facts that we played so many games last season.
Nah has already shown his personality is not big enough to manage this club. Jumped on the out train after Anfield annihilation and not got off. Hopefully INEOS have got a shortlist on who they want to take over in the summer.
Antony 100%, but Onana is playing better and will be the no. 1 keeper even under a new manager.
This is steering the conversation to rumours and confirmation biases, and you've already conceded that all members of a squad don't need to be a specific manager's signings before said manager can be evaluated. "Getting stick" from a fanbase is hardly the be all end all of metrics. I mean, Rashford carried this team last year. A substantial amount of people will tell you we're better with Shaw than without him. Martial has been injured so often some even forget he's still here - it would be an extreme reach to make him culpable for any of Ten Hag's current shortcomings.
We've established the current squad isn't even that similar to the one Ole had. I think we can also agree the players are trying - they've strung wins together, some of them last gasp ones. So who are the "snowflakes that INEOS needs to shake up" before being able to look at the manager?
It's not as if Ten Hag has only been here for 3 months. He has spoken repeatedly about instilling an ethos/culture for the squad - it comes directly from him. He has made big disciplinary decisions and retained the support of the club, fans and reportedly the players. The same players which in your last paragraph you said you don't doubt are trying. Are you saying Ten Hag has failed or is incapable of instilling the type of culture he often references?
I've posted posts of you attributing credit to Ten Hag - in this very same thread - after wins - with these same players. So why isn't Ten Hag responsible for the losses and the overall underperformance of our season?
But the expectations on Ten Hag currently isn't even to challenge for top honours though, yet he's still failing.
I am Ten Hag out, but the below video has made be rethink:
https://x.com/statmansticks/status/1762247427979870560?s=46&t=-CWsO3kA7ZeCOTYwtcOsQg
All I can think about is how every player in that team is so comfortable passing the ball. I can think of Martinez and Mainoo who have that ability.
I actually fell sorry for Ten Hag after that! Our recruitment is so poor, our players are so poor in ability.
https://x.com/statmansticks/status/1762247427979870560?s=46&t=-CWsO3kA7ZeCOTYwtcOsQg
All I can think about is how every player in that team is so comfortable passing the ball. I can think of Martinez and Mainoo who have that ability.
I actually fell sorry for Ten Hag after that! Our recruitment is so poor, our players are so poor in ability.
He made Bruno the captain. Bruno treats the ball like a time bomb. You reap what you sow.
The same logic could be applied to all the players we've signed in the last 10 years. There's no excuse to being outplayed and out thought by practically every team in the league, including the relegation fodder. I don't see a team that's not trying but I see a team that is being exploited by the same type of tactics very often, no matter who we play in or team or what type of players they are.
If you gave Klopp this team then it would be night and day, he's got a bunch of kids playing well during an injury crisis, because he's a top class coach and a very good man manager. There is really no excuse.
Ten Hag took over an Ajax team that missed out on the Dutch title by 1 point. One fecking point. He didn't "transform" anything.
The bolded part is why I think he's a lost cause, because I have 0 clue how to believe in a manager who watches how easily the setup is played through by every team in the league and refuses to adjust the shape/tactics/instructions. Which means he's happy with every game being this end to end coin flip, and in that case I can't believe in him further.
I agree with you and thought that Onana and Mainoo coming in would mean far more control in games. I mean feck even if we played last years setup with a double pivot and just those two inserted for DDG and Eriksen we'd be far better off than we are now.
That looks the Ajax way. Did his Utrecht side also play like this?
These are the tactics of a coach that doesn't value possession, he's trying to shithouse goals with pace in behind and relying on physical traits rather than coaching and engaging the minds of the players.
I said very early on that he doesn't look like a coach that values possession, and was argued with because he didn't have the right midfield etc. Then he came out and confirmed that he's interested in quick transitions. I did some research into Ajax before and during Ten Hag, and realised that it was actually Peter Bosz who laid the foundations of a possession team (he's currently uneaten in Eredivisie with PSV, probably a better coach than ETH). Ten Hag inherited something special there, with a young group of players that belonged at a much higher level, and with a very good recruitment team bringing in even more players that were too good for the league. He was never going to do anything but be successful there.
- Status