1.6 10 games Nov-Dec. Where are you going with this?
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
I think you are supposed to only count the last five league games.
He would have been aware of our financial situation prior to last Summer. He insisted on having significant control over transfers so this is 100% on him.
Oh, you mean the transfer structure, i.e. the players he has handpicked himself. Got it.
What a fabulous day it’s going to be once he gets fired.
Are you five? Embarrassing lack of self-reflection and logic brought to the table combined with an almighty high opinion of yourself with zero backing.You're such a bad poster aren't you
Claim we don't have a structure, when we do even if it's a bit shite. You claim I don't watch the games when my point is we won them, not that we blew every single side away. Do you actually follow posts?
You might want to read the Athletic deep dive. He wasn't even told the proper budget he was working with in the summer and the footballing heads were known to even not fully divulge transfer fees to their managers in some instances. You are assuming a lot in terms of competence in those above him here.
Also it's a veto and being in the room. He didn't decide to sack head scouts and it's not his fault he works under people who can't it viable alternatives on the table.
Lack of logic? Why don't you bring an example to the table.
By the way, I'm citing the posters refusal to read posts (which they rarely do in replies) and actually argue my point. I never said we blew teams away or were consistently outperforming on the pitch. I said we grinded out wins.
Yeah, my point being no structure should have a manager hand picking players. Even ten Hag didn't ask for that. He wanted input and a veto. Something equal on both sides.
I'm purely stating the obvious bias. I have my own concerns about Ten Hag but I can still be objective.
What makes you think this coaching team can make us any more convincing?
Results alone won't save his job. If INEOS can bring in the quality of executive they're aiming for, and there's money available in the transfer market, this'll be an attractive job. Improved performances are a must. If he "limps over the line" to 5th, with the resources he's had, he's underachieved in my opinion.
Where am I making any such claim?Not wanting to concede 25 shots a game and get ran through constantly = Bias against Ten Hag
That makes sense...I am curious as to how many players came up through the Ajax system in ETH's team while he was there.
I am not arguing about his recent tactical blunders. But everything becomes derogatory and narrative feeding. Villa are a top4 team this season both in points and in performance. I think everyone can honestly agree to that.
Ten Hag is making weird and losing decisions is a whole different story.
When Ten Hag found out that Garnacho is devastating on the right, which means he can play Rash in his best position, he did. Yesterday was disappointing to see him revert from that.
Obviously, this is me arguing here, perhaps they've tried it on the training ground, but I thought Rashford was useless in the n9 position and if we had proper defence, maybe it would've worked because we can bring the ball forward and then use intricate play and in-channel passes, but we couldn't because of Lindelof, Maguire and Varane and it meant we need to play it long, so McT to bring them down makes sense to me.
Overall, I think ETH didn't think we would be so bad in buildup from the back.
I think he is making philosophical compromises which are going to cost him his job.
Yeah I was wondering if the correct answer was 3.
I don't get this argument at all.
He must have known what the structure around transfers was going to be before he took the job, and how it was going to work - i.e. who was making what decisions. Whether he should have been hand picking the players is irrelevant, because it seems that he did, and they largely haven't worked out at all. That suggests to me he's underestimated the PL because he's signed players who aren't good enough and can't get us anywhere near the style he wanted to play. That, in my opinion, amounts to a failure.
It's a bit of a convoluted way of explaining my point, so I apologise.
You asked what proof or evidence there is of our point tally improving well enough (or similar). My point is that if we take our games this year and compare to the games in the tail end of last year, we are improved in points per game.
I took a look though - and we have FA Cup wins in that so I wanted to exclude it and make it more of a larger sample. So I took our last 10 games in the PL and compared it to the 10 games prior to that. We have 2pts per game vs 1.80 pts per game, so modestly improved, but on a right trajectory. Importantly though we also have a great run of fixtures post City and now have all of our harder games away behind us.
If we can welcome one fullback (AWB or Malacia) to play opposite flank to Dalot and keep Hojlund & remaining key players fit, I think Ten Hag should be capable of maintaining a better point per game record.
Gary Neville having worked with Ashworth seems to believe that he’ll give him a year to see what ETH is about whilst he works on building the platform for managers to succeed. If after that year he doesn’t think ETH is the one then he’ll be gone.
What resources are you talking about by the way?
After Ten Hag was announced we got rid of our head scouts & were put up for sale. We were also surprised with some negative sponsorship deals and the PL's outlook to our covid losses wasn't as generous as we expected, which led to tighter funds, and in turn less flexible decision making on transfer targets. However, the point I am making is that for a veto structure to work, there needs to be more than one school of thought in the room to bounce ideas off.
By all accounts, the reputable deep dives into our summer suggested we didn't really give proper alternatives or transfer targets for Ten Hag to consider outside of his own men (bar of course, Gakpo over Antony which I agree Ten Hag should not have pushed for the latter on). It was well reported too for example that the alternatives for Hojlund on the table by our scouts/DoF was Kolo Muani and Goncalo Ramos. It was Ten Hag who pushed for Hojlund over those. Murtough also panicked over Mount and overpaid just becuase he was scared Liverpool or Arsenal would make a move.
Generally speaking, it's not exactly a good structure because any manager (not just ETH) should be challenged with viable alternatives when you are trying to adopt a veto structure. I think Ten Hag was assuming a better organized support when aligning his transfers to what the club has. But I would also imagine he was pretty surprised when he saw how bad our set up was after he joined. This is the case with almost every manager before him too.
In last 10 games we've won 17 points.
The correct answer is 2.4 points per game over the last 5 weeks.
Own goal from me, my apologies - I had the 2-0 West Ham loss the other way in the count.
I guess there's no massive development in that case regarding points per game improvement.
I didn't want to count the last 5 alone because you'd have an issue with the sample size. If you expand that to 10, then sure, no major development and I'll happily retract.
He's completely abandoned his principles, basically since the opening two defeats against Brighton and Brentford 2 years ago.
He always had a possession and control based approach, but these days we willingly concede both possession and control even to the likes of Fulham at home. Ten Hag isn't stupid, so he has to know that this is unsustainable long-term.
I thought signing a ball-playing keeper in Onana, as well as finding a quality ball-carrying left sided #8 in Mainoo will see us start moving towards how his Ajax sides played, but it hasn't been the case.
Ineos should tell him that he needs to go back to his original ideas, and even if the results get worse, but the performances improve, it will result in significant long-term progress.
He always had a possession and control based approach, but these days we willingly concede both possession and control even to the likes of Fulham at home. Ten Hag isn't stupid, so he has to know that this is unsustainable long-term.
I thought signing a ball-playing keeper in Onana, as well as finding a quality ball-carrying left sided #8 in Mainoo will see us start moving towards how his Ajax sides played, but it hasn't been the case.
Ineos should tell him that he needs to go back to his original ideas, and even if the results get worse, but the performances improve, it will result in significant long-term progress.
I think his best 12 game spell with us is 26 points (last season Oct-Feb) which he'd need to get get to 70 points to have half a chance of finishing above Spurs. I can't see it.
I'm actually not arguing against this - I agree its difficult to foresee. I think it's certainly doable with key players fit, but they aren't. And I do think our squad is shite, which is down to a mix of reasons already discussed.
We still don’t have the team to do that energy wise or ability. Casemiro and Erikson might have the brains and ability for it but not the energy to get about and make it happen. Rashford, Bruno and McT are not players that can play in that manner. Then Shaw being injured, Martinez being injured we just don’t have the people to make it happen so we are stuck in this fast transition stuff.
All this talk as if ETH is still some great guru. He had a good spell with a giant team in a poor league. People dont realise the lack of intensity in these leagues, its easy to play controlled football in these leagues when you have the better players. He cant cope with the Premier league. He has signed half the team and most are woefully unsuited to the PL. INEOS will get rid of him, of that I'm pretty sure.
No I mean the status of the club and its established revenue line allows you if you get it right to buy the players you want to coach, the job of getting the players is down to DOF and Head of recruitment!
My point - Asking the best managers to take over, it’s a known fact Pep, Klopp and Zidane turned down the job because
What was on offer pre Ineos;
1. Interfering Chairman who know nothing about football and employ bankers to run the club plus they like to remote manage
2. Bankers as CEO’s recruiting inexperienced or worst in class to oversee the youth development and recruitment of first team squad
3. Not understanding how to broker a deal and overpaying for players not fit for purpose
4. A dilapidated Stadium that’s been neglected for two decades
5. An average training complex without the most modern facilities to rest and recover after a game
6. An average medical team that has no real reputation within the Game.
What may be on offer after Ineos take control;
1. Britains second richest man who runs a blue chip company turning over $65 billion per year who will invest to save his beloved club. (Or so we hope!)
2. Best.in class CEO, DOF, Techincal Director and Head of Recruitment who have the contacts and resources to support an elite manager to be successful
3. Finally having a grip on FFP/FSP increasing club revenue with a world class operator on the board like J Claude Blanc, a working capital to get deals done efficiently and a team that supports this process,
4. A new stadium or star of the art renovation 90,000 all seater stadium that could be completed by 2028 giving the coach a short term, mid term and a long term strategy.
5. A new state of the art training complex with an 18 hole golf course, better rest and recovery
6. A new medical team with modern and state of the art facilities.
My point is even Zidane might now think twice if offered the job, United are a behemoth of a club and only an absolute Tier 1 manager should be in charge, if our new coach has not won a CL or a domestic League title in a Top 5 League, we shouldn’t be entertaining the thought of them managing this club.
Zidane isnt keen on the PL let alone Man Utd, reportedly.
Luis Enrique, please. Has the charisma to match. I can imagine him giving motivating half time team talks, maybe a bit like the unhinged ones from Pep in the Amazon documentary. That Barcelona treble winning team is extremely underrated. That team played high intensity possession when needed, and some of the best counter attacking I have ever seen, when needed. He's proven to be very adaptable with handling big names too, as seen with all the egos in his Barcelona teams, and I have noticed excellent man management of Mbappe so far. If he had a Kane or Benzema for Spain in Qatar 22, I truly believe Spain would have reached the finals.
Last edited:
I agree with most of this.
Shaw has to be managed very carefully these days, but we aren't doing that...or can't be doing that, I guess, since Malacia's nowhere to be seen since last season.
Martínez is our only CB who's a good defender, good on the ball, good in the build-up and is incredibly press-resistant. The other three (Maguire, Varane, Lindelöf) have some good qualities but I feel like none of them are good enough at this point to start for a PL / CL challenger team. Maguire is closest.
Dalot is decent, especially recently, but we need a new right back as well.
We don't have a lone #6 who can play in a single-pivot behind two #8s.
We only have 1 good striker who's out injured again.
We don't have a decent option for the right wing, other than Garnacho, but he isn't left footed (which would be ideal).
Most of the squad needs gradually replacing and huge reinforcements over the next few windows.
But the performances should still be better. We're struggling even against lower-table sides.
Also, I think both Bruno and Rashford's bad habits can be curbed, right now we're just so transition-heavy that especially Bruno isn't doing what he should/would if we had a possession-based setup. Casemiro, Eriksen, and McTominay should be role players (don't think this term exists in football) and not starters at this point.
How is this man still defending ETH? Furthermore, does he even have any awareness of what he is writing?This is trying to oversimplify things and not even true.
I'm still undecided on what to do about the manager. I do think that he is losing credibility with his post match analysis comments.
I get it, there is only so much he can say to the press, it's difficult. But ignoring bad performances, talking about character, I just can't be onboard with it anymore.
I get it, there is only so much he can say to the press, it's difficult. But ignoring bad performances, talking about character, I just can't be onboard with it anymore.
Maybe Onana was a ball playing goalkeeper for him, but just maybe in the Dutch league and Italian league you get a bit more time to be that. Here you do not, so have to be exceptionally deft with your touches of the ball to succeed.
Think a lot of the problems are squad depth and quality of squad depth. We have had injuries, but a combination of lack of depth and lack of coaching of a system have scuppered us. Other teams have had injuries, but have such well drilled systems of play the top teams can just slot another player in seamlessly. Us it either means a severe drop in quality, players playing out of position or a complete change to system at short notice. You wonder if we actually practice with players playing in different positions so we can find out who could cover another position properly and comfortably.
You're saying this as if Onana had any issues with bypassing a press, or passing at United. He's been great at those things and we are much better at playing out from the back with him, as well as not losing the ball against a high-press. He's been good at those things he was brought in for.
I mean, Guardiola literally opted not to press Onana in the CL final because he's so good against it. And that was the biggest club game you can play against the best team in the world, Man. City. He also had a really good performance at Anfield vs Liverpool, another team that has an amazing high-press.
He needs Martinez back and a partner for him, who is not slow as such but mobile. Harry can defend, but against someone fast or lets say tricky he can get caught. Varane is good, but will likely be gone and is forever injured. The fullbacks are a serious problem. Dalot must wonder which side of the pitch he will be on from game to game. Why do we get so many injuries? Is it training, the medical and recovery side not being good enough, or just that footballers are being asked to play too many games, so it takes a toll on their bodies?
The whole defence is a serious problem regarding the build-up phase. If we've had everyone available in the defence throughout the season, I do think we would've fared better. Onana, Martínez and Shaw are all great and suit possession-based football. But that's only the left side. Dalot has improved recently but I don't think he can be a guaranteed starter for a truly elite side just yet. We also don't have a right sided centre back who can receive, carry, or pass the ball like Lisandro. Also not enough press-resistance there. Ideally, we'll need a new right back, probably a new left back (sadly, as I like both Shaw and Malacia, but the injuries have been too frequent), a new right footed centre back, and a new left-footed centre back to compete with Martínez as well.
But going back to my original point, we still should be putting in better performances against mid-table sides and relegation candidates. I do agree though that even just the defense has so many gaps we need to plug, in order to not let injuries destabilize a season so much.
- Status