Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

Status
Not open for further replies.
DJ_21 said:
Even he wouldn’t get us challenging straight away. Did you see his first few seasons with Liverpool… and even with Liverpool he’s still only won 1 premier league title. During there best years and our worse. I agree that we need improvement though season by season. We’ve hit a brick wall this season but I think he’s aloud to use the excuse that he’s had his best players injured for most of the season.. to be fair to him he’s backed his word up when he said we’ll see results when players are back. We’ve had 2 out of 2 wins with arguably our strongest side and scored 3+ in them both.
Click to expand...

Klopps time at Liverpool has coincided with the City "era", and even still they have pushed them hard many times, including to around 100 points in the PL. It's unfortunate for Klopp, at any other time he'd have cleaned up pretty much in those seasons.

And with regards to your final point, this issue with ETH isn't limited to this season. We were pretty poor for a lot of last season, but fortunately have some very good players and got results regardless. But there were some dark times last season too which were red flags for myself and many others.
 
pocco said:
Klopps time at Liverpool has coincided with the City "era", and even still they have pushed them hard many times, including to around 100 points in the PL. It's unfortunate for Klopp, at any other time he'd have cleaned up pretty much in those seasons.

And with regards to your final point, this issue with ETH isn't limited to this season. We were pretty poor for a lot of last season, but fortunately have some very good players and got results regardless. But there were some dark times last season too which were red flags for myself and many others.
Click to expand...

Apart from the one they won they've pushed them hard only twice (remains to be seen this season). They've also finished beneath us 4 out of those 8 seasons.

Not that he isn't a great manager, he obviously is.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
Apart from the one they won they've pushed them hard only twice (remains to be seen this season). They've also finished beneath us 4 out of those 8 seasons.

Not that he isn't a great manager, he obviously is.
Click to expand...

3 out of 8 is pretty good going, considering the work he needed to do when he arrived. He's on course for another potential challenge right now, but i have a feeling his decision to leave might just see the wheels come off.

Putting my bias to one side, they have been very good at times and still not won the title. But my point is just that it's difficult to judge Klopp on league wins when he's just come up against an equally good manager at a better team.
 
AltiUn said:
It wasn't middle of the season though it was essentially at the beginning, calling it the middle of the season is exactly my point, it literally wasn't. Nuance is required when discussing things like this. Ten Hag has his failings but April 2025 would be around the stage of where Klopp was at the end of his "second full season" in terms of time spent at their respective clubs.
Click to expand...

Ok if we need to be pedantic, he took over with season in progress but not precisely at the mid-point. There’s still a huge difference between taking over a team in July and having entire Summer to prepare and make transfers and taking over in October and not being able to go through preseason / make any moves. That year was basically a write off yet he still improved them, got some great league wins early on, reached EL final.
 
Last edited:
ETH has turned the corner and manages to bring united back to winning ways. Other than City, Arsenal and Liverpool, the rest of the clubs are reasonably easy to catch up with. United can go for Top 4.
 
DJ_21 said:
Even he wouldn’t get us challenging straight away. Did you see his first few seasons with Liverpool… and even with Liverpool he’s still only won 1 premier league title. During there best years and our worse. I agree that we need improvement though season by season. We’ve hit a brick wall this season but I think he’s aloud to use the excuse that he’s had his best players injured for most of the season.. to be fair to him he’s backed his word up when he said we’ll see results when players are back. We’ve had 2 out of 2 wins with arguably our strongest side and scored 3+ in them both.
Click to expand...

The point is, the bar for someone else shouldn't be can they challenge for the title right away.

ETH has to be assessed on what he has done/ is doing. If it's not good enough you get in someone else who you think can do better. Not necessarily someone who can challenge for the title, cuz that's an impossible ask.
 
spinblade said:
And which direction is that? Away from the principles he was hired for and towards attempting to play on the transition from literally every situation we find ourselves in, even if we're in our own half?
Click to expand...
Actually that sums it up pretty good. And I, even as an Ajax fan have absolutely no issue with that.
 
Borys said:
That is a very good point and also the reason why I don't want want ETH here next season. He has not shown any good ideas in his time here, and our peak time we just played "pragmatic" football. And the thing is, even ignoring his "transfers" (apart from Antony I don't think it's been very bad, "the Mount fiasco" is more about how ETH got it wrong rather than MM being a bad player), I just don't think he has the right ideas to move us forward. We are playing worse than I would expect this bunch of players COULD perform. So, even if we give the power over transfers to somebody else, it seems very likely ETH will keep pushing for his idea of "single #6 and double #10" setup, because this is what we've been doing all season basically.
Click to expand...

I have always wondered why Mason Mount was so coveted, and assumed (and still assume) that people with far more knowledge than me can see what he does. I still don't understand why we paid what we did for him with a year left on his contract, nor why he seemed to be a priority when we had glaring issues at the back.
 
RedRover said:
I have always wondered why Mason Mount was so coveted, and assumed (and still assume) that people with far more knowledge than me can see what he does. I still don't understand why we paid what we did for him with a year left on his contract, nor why he seemed to be a priority when we had glaring issues at the back.
Click to expand...
Mount is really great playing as part of a Double-10 and EtH wanted to play with a Double-10, so the signing made sense. The issue just is, that he also decided the way to evolve his team towards that would mean going from a 4231 to a 4141. Which just lacks balance, especially with the available players. Mount shined mostly when used in a 3421 system, or generally with a box midfield (Double-6 and Double-10) like in the CL final when he and Havertz played in front of Jorginho and Kante.
 
stefan92 said:
Mount is really great playing as part of a Double-10 and EtH wanted to play with a Double-10, so the signing made sense. The issue just is, that he also decided the way to evolve his team towards that would mean going from a 4231 to a 4141. Which just lacks balance, especially with the available players. Mount shined mostly when used in a 3421 system, or generally with a box midfield (Double-6 and Double-10) like in the CL final when he and Havertz played in front of Jorginho and Kante.
Click to expand...
In possession we actually often have that box midfield structure, with one of the fb’s moving into midfield next to Cas or Mainoo.
 
RedRover said:
I have always wondered why Mason Mount was so coveted, and assumed (and still assume) that people with far more knowledge than me can see what he does. I still don't understand why we paid what we did for him with a year left on his contract, nor why he seemed to be a priority when we had glaring issues at the back.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's very complicated, ETH one and only idea is to play with single #6 and double #10s, it's what we've been doing all season regardless who plays alongside Bruno.
Even though I strongly believe this idea is wrong (and I've been saying that since pre-season), I do think that Mount is actually a good and versatile player worth the money we paid for him. However... Bruno is the problem and it just makes no sense to buy Mount if Bruno is undroppable (I'd assume this was the long-term plan that went wrong).
But Bruno alone isn't the only reason why this idea is ridiculous, we saw Casemiro struggling last season, we recognized this is not going to work with Eriksen alongside him so... we changed the formation to make it even more difficult for him in midfield. Go figure.

I agree we should've spent the money elsewhere, I was of the opinion it's better to stick to Fred for another season and strengthen in attack with two strikers.
 
NLunited said:
In possession we actually often have that box midfield structure, with one of the fb’s moving into midfield next to Cas or Mainoo.
Click to expand...
Yes and in theory that can work (and does so for other teams). I just don't think that suits any of United's current fullbacks, which is why I mentioned the available players as part of the problem when trying to play a 4141.
 
stefan92 said:
Yes and in theory that can work (and doesp so for other teams). I just don't think that suits any of United's current fullbacks, which is why I mentioned the available players as part of the problem when trying to play a 4141.
Click to expand...

I don't actually think the fluidity required fits the league. It's a bit too much movements in key structural areas. Pep may be able to pull it off, but that doesn't mean everyone else can. Plus Pep's systems are more structure than ours. We have way too many shifting pieces, so one slip on the cog means that we have to start our attack all over again. The premier League is far too intense, physical and fast for us to be this fluid. It leaves is constantly caught in bad positions when countered, plus, even in possession, creates difficult passing angles due to players not always being in place.
 
stefan92 said:
Yes and in theory that can work (and does so for other teams). I just don't think that suits any of United's current fullbacks, which is why I mentioned the available players as part of the problem when trying to play a 4141.
Click to expand...
I think both Shaw and Dalot are good in this role. This is not one of our issues.
 
NLunited said:
We are not playing that.
Click to expand...

You're watching a different Manchester United to the rest of us then, mate. We're watching the Manchester United where our own manager declared at the beginning of the season that he wants us to play on the transition and has set us up to play that way, the Manchester United that everyone and their dog considers to be a counterattacking team. "Playing speedily on the counter" (the euphemism constantly trotted out for the frenetic, unstructured, chaotic mad rush thing we do as soon as we get the ball from the opponent) is literally what we've been known for for the past 10 years since Fergie retired, and our current genius is just taking us further down that path. Attempting now and then to string some semblance of possession together against weak sides that sit deep does not make us a possession side. It's not what we do. Our current guy tried possession for all of his first pre-season and a whole two games of his first season before shelving it as a bad job and we haven't seen it since, besides, like I said, against teams that want to counter more than we do. Then it eventually becomes a, "No, we'll sit back; you can play." "No, no, by all means, we'll sit back and you lads can play." Until eventually it's us who has to try make something happen against low-block teams. We're certainly not playing possession football though. There's no evidence of him working on it with the squad, improving it, making them understand the philosophy and insights of such a style, nothing.
 
Last edited:
stefan92 said:
Mount is really great playing as part of a Double-10 and EtH wanted to play with a Double-10, so the signing made sense. The issue just is, that he also decided the way to evolve his team towards that would mean going from a 4231 to a 4141. Which just lacks balance, especially with the available players. Mount shined mostly when used in a 3421 system, or generally with a box midfield (Double-6 and Double-10) like in the CL final when he and Havertz played in front of Jorginho and Kante.
Click to expand...

Correct. His best performances for Chelsea came in that hybrid right forward role where he had Jorginho, Kante, and James around him and he could just be a half space player popping up with goals and assists without being a central player. Any time he’s been asked to play as a conventional central 10 in a 4atb system he’s been mostly underwhelming, and likewise as a traditional 8 in a 433. So you’re stuck with a player that has nice qualities in a vacuum but no real calling card of what he for sure offers a team nor a set position you slot him in and it’s easy.

ETH thinking that Mount and Bruno as dual attacking 8’s would work was such a poor plan I still can’t believe he did it, especially considering how he’s said he wants to be a more transition based/direct team and not a possession based one.
 
NLunited said:
A combination of pressing and playing through the opponents press quickly to have more room for our attackers to operate in.
Click to expand...

Right. Working brilliantly so far this season with all the great attacking play and chances created.

Defence doesn't look stretched either.

Definitely going to come good...
 
Borys said:
I don't think it's very complicated, ETH one and only idea is to play with single #6 and double #10s, it's what we've been doing all season regardless who plays alongside Bruno.
Even though I strongly believe this idea is wrong (and I've been saying that since pre-season), I do think that Mount is actually a good and versatile player worth the money we paid for him. However... Bruno is the problem and it just makes no sense to buy Mount if Bruno is undroppable (I'd assume this was the long-term plan that went wrong).
But Bruno alone isn't the only reason why this idea is ridiculous, we saw Casemiro struggling last season, we recognized this is not going to work with Eriksen alongside him so... we changed the formation to make it even more difficult for him in midfield. Go figure.

I agree we should've spent the money elsewhere, I was of the opinion it's better to stick to Fred for another season and strengthen in attack with two strikers.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Or bring in a centre back. I suspect they expected to get Maguire away and have more funds.
 
spinblade said:
You're watching a different Manchester United to the rest of us then, mate. We're watching the Manchester United where our own manager declared at the beginning of the season that he wants us to play on the transition and has set us up to play that way, the Manchester United that everyone and their dog considers to be a counterattacking team. "Playing speedily on the counter" (the euphemism constantly trotted out for the frenetic, unstructured, chaotic mad rush thing we do as soon as we get the ball from the opponent) is literally what we've been known for for the past 10 years since Fergie retired, and our current genius is just taking us further down that path. Attempting now and then to string some semblance of possession together against weak sides that sit deep does not make us a possession side. It's not what we do. Our current guy tried possession for all of his first pre-season and a whole two games of his first season before shelving it as a bad job and we haven't seen it since, besides, like I said, against teams that want to counter more than we do. Then it eventually becomes a, "No, we'll sit back; you can play." "No, no, by all means, we'll sit back and you lads can play." Until eventually it's us who has to try make something happen against low-block teams. We're certainly not playing possession football though. There's no evidence of him working on it with the squad, improving it, making them understand the philosophy and insights of such a style, nothing.
Click to expand...
And we are not playing that. We are far from a low block team just playing balls over the top.
 
I can almost guarantee you all that if Ineos decides to part ways with him in the summer,
Barcelona will be the ones to jump on this, take him as their manager and he'll make them a great team.
I don't want him to leave us, and I'm sure that if we'll bring some capable people to the club to support him from top to bottom he'll be successful with us.
 
SAF is the GOAT said:
I can almost guarantee you all that if Ineos decides to part ways with him in the summer,
Barcelona will be the ones to jump on this, take him as their manager and he'll make them a great team.
I don't want him to leave us, and I'm sure that if we'll bring some capable people to the club to support him from top to bottom he'll be successful with us.
Click to expand...
I actually think he'd be a good manager at Dortmund which would be funny if they sign Sancho.
 
SAF is the GOAT said:
I can almost guarantee you all that if Ineos decides to part ways with him in the summer,
Barcelona will be the ones to jump on this, take him as their manager and he'll make them a great team.
I don't want him to leave us, and I'm sure that if we'll bring some capable people to the club to support him from top to bottom he'll be successful with us.
Click to expand...
40-1 for their next manager if you're so sure.
 
If he goes, not to Barcelona. They are broke and a bunch of cnuts are in charge there.
 
RedRover said:
It is indeed, but not at this end.

Injuries have obviously had an impact, but if you think that's the whole story then I can't help you. If you can tell me what exactly we've seen this season from the manager that indicates he's ever going to get us challenging for a title then fair play.

He needs more than a couple of wins against mid-table fodder to gloss over the dreadful recruitment and generally poor decision making we've had for 90% of the season.
Click to expand...
Last season we had 71.90 xG. In a context to judge that number, arsenal who were challenging for a title last season had 76.51 xG. Similar number. xG can be used to demonstrate how often team creating quality chances. We finished 3rd, won EFL Cup, reached final in FA Cup, we were unbeaten in old trafford last season after the first gameweek and beating the likes of Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, City at home.

This season we have lot of injuries but earlier this season we became one of the best as pressing team in the league. The injuries on our new players and Rashford being off form don’t help and don’t allow us to make progress as a team.
19fbed5f-9282-4703-9cbd-78d5bff93c3e


Overall, there is sign to indicate that ten Hag can be the right man. Hopefully, with new regime, we will get to see new structure in recruitment and dealing with contract to improve our signings so we can use the money wisely and sign quality players and rebuild our squad.
 
SAF is the GOAT said:
I can almost guarantee you all that if Ineos decides to part ways with him in the summer,
Barcelona will be the ones to jump on this, take him as their manager and he'll make them a great team.
I don't want him to leave us, and I'm sure that if we'll bring some capable people to the club to support him from top to bottom he'll be successful with us.
Click to expand...

No chance of barca. At least based off what he has us doing, they wouldn't want him at all.

horsechoker said:
I actually think he'd be a good manager at Dortmund which would be funny if they sign Sancho.
Click to expand...

That's a good and plausible shout, although I'm sure Dortmund fans are hoping for Klopp to return
 
NLunited said:
If he goes, not to Barcelona. They are broke and a bunch of cnuts are in charge there.
Click to expand...

Nobody at Barcelona wants Ten Haag. What's more, Laporta would to have a stroke to sign him, because there is no other way he would sign him, and they would put a motion of censure to kick him out in a short time.
 
Don_Johan14 said:
Nobody at Barcelona wants Ten Haag. What's more, Laporta would to have a stroke to sign him, because there is no other way he would sign him, and they would put a motion of censure to kick him out in a short time.
Click to expand...
I think they would sign just about anyone with a connection to Ajax, they are desperate. Ten Hag should not though because they are corrupt, broke and a mess.
 
NLunited said:
I think they would sign just about anyone with a connection to Ajax, they are desperate. Ten Hag should not though because they are corrupt, broke and a mess.
Click to expand...

Someone with a connection to Ajax like who?

Barcelona broke? United has a lot more debt, but a lot more and let's see when the next quarter arrives.

A mess? Things are not going well this year but even so, the only thing that would be worrying is not finishing top-4. And 5 players have gone up from the academy with great projection: Fermin 20, Yamal 16 (world class), Cubarsi 17 (incredible CB), Hector Fort 17 (powerful RB), Marc Guiu 18 (corpulent CF). And all the boys coming from the academy.
 
Don_Johan14 said:
Someone with a connection to Ajax like who?

Barcelona broke? United has a lot more debt, but a lot more and let's see when the next quarter arrives.

A mess? Things are not going well this year but even so, the only thing that would be worrying is not finishing top-4. And 5 players have gone up from the academy with great projection: Fermin 20, Yamal 16 (world class), Cubarsi 17 (incredible CB), Hector Fort 17 (powerful RB), Marc Guiu 18 (corpulent CF). And all the boys coming from the academy.
Click to expand...

Corpulent CF :lol:
 
SAF is the GOAT said:
I can almost guarantee you all that if Ineos decides to part ways with him in the summer,
Barcelona will be the ones to jump on this, take him as their manager and he'll make them a great team.
I don't want him to leave us, and I'm sure that if we'll bring some capable people to the club to support him from top to bottom he'll be successful with us.
Click to expand...

I understand your way of thinking.
But I must remind you that every manager (even those with great reputations) have left MUFC and basically done nothing of any significance.
I think ETH is arguably the worst manager we have hired since SAF (Moyes and ETH would run neck and neck).
I think if ETH leaves us, he won't be winning any big trophies anytime soon.
In the Dutch league, he might win the league, but that's about it.
 
I say give him time. Seems a smart guy, and I think he has the right principles. Perhaps he has learnt something about the prem in these two seasons. His recruitment is poor, but I actually think he’s a decent coach.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.