This guy grinds my gears more than most. Throw him on the pile of nothing "broadcasters" who use their hatred / animosity towards United to drum up clicks. Made worse by the fact we (UK citizens) pay a portion of his wages.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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This guy grinds my gears more than most. Throw him on the pile of nothing "broadcasters" who use their hatred / animosity towards United to drum up clicks. Made worse by the fact we (UK citizens) pay a portion of his wages.
Whoever this source is shows just how the small time mentality is ingrained at the club. Beating Wolves and West Ham vindicates what exactly? Its the absolute bare minimum for a club of our size. Jim or his assassin Brailsford needs to find these people and sack them
The media have their narratives lined up, they probably prepare 2 or 3 weeks in advance and have a "if United lose folder" and "if United win folder", the writer(s) probably have a rough draft written up and then fill in the details after the game(s).
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but Klopp's second full season was essentially his 3rd, he managed 85% of Liverpool's games in his first season which is a fact that often gets overlooked when talking about his progress. He essentially had an entire season to work with that seems to get swept under the rug, it wasn't like he was appointed in February, he was appointed in October.
I am not sure about that. Mainoo is playing too high, and Bruno is playing too deep. This is just another, "less extreme" variation of single #6 and double #10 system (compared to McTominay/Mount playing as second strikers basically). I still think we're not using those players the right way.
Agree about Ole comments. I don't see how this is different from what OGS was trying to do - maybe we didn't push that high but the idea was to recover the ball in midfield and pass it quickly to the forwards (McTominay and Fred did a decent job IMO). The only difference is ETH has much better players in defence and in midfield, while Ole had more attacking power.
I think that's pretty fair. Which also undermines ETH as the new tactical guru/ philosophy guy. I don't see us ever winning a major trophy with that approach. Let's see.
He's still floating on a reputation of being a good "coach", what is funny because his ideas this season have been nothing short of a disaster and he doesn't seem particularly interested in finding a plan B.
Amusing how you are still trying to pretend that your point about Klopp having very similar first 3 years is anything less than ridiculous.
Klopp was hired after 8 games of 2015-16 season, with the team in disarray and unable to make any transfers after inheriting what was a weak team with little talent. Don't think you can put their 8th place finish on him to be honest, and even in the short term you could see signs of how big an impact he was going to ultimately have for them. They beat Chelsea (the good team) 3-1 at Stamford weeks after he signed and then steamrolled City 4-1 at Etihad soon after. He also got them to an Europa League final knocking out United, Villarreal and Dortmund on their way there, losing to Sevilla in final.
His first full season was already much better with 76 points and a top 4 finish, with clear progress in performance and style, and in his second full season he took them to a Champions League final and once again a top 4 finish. His third season they got very close to winning the league and won CL.
He took over a team in the middle of season and was not able to make any amendments to the squad, it was obviously not comparable with ETH taking over pre-season and being able to spend north of £200m on new players. Even then it's unfair to say that there was no visible improvement in the way they played or their results, their PPG improved, they had some great results in big games and they got to an EL final by beating some properly good teams on their way. There was tangible improvement, and they remained on same trajectory for the next 3 seasons. It's not at all comparable to where we have been for the last 18 months.
His first CL campaign with them he got them to a final, our first CL campaign we finished bottom of the group winning 1 game against Copenhagen and Galatasaray.
You can make many argument for ten Hag but 'Klopp did similar to him in his first seasons with Liverpool' is just factually very incorrect.
ETH may be a decent manager but he's not at the same level as Klopp, he's never been on that level and never will be. It's like comparing Keegan or Dalglish to Fergie. You don't have to be at Klopp's level to be good though.
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It wasn't middle of the season though it was essentially at the beginning, calling it the middle of the season is exactly my point, it literally wasn't. Nuance is required when discussing things like this. Ten Hag has his failings but April 2025 would be around the stage of where Klopp was at the end of his "second full season" in terms of time spent at their respective clubs.
Elanga was dogshit for us. period.
Either way Klopp started at Liverpool after the summer transfer window had closed, while EtH had 200m to spend on his team before his first season started and had a full preseason to prepare. Starting as a manager after 8 matches is much closer to starting after 20 matches than to starting before the season starts, despite the number of matches played indicates something else.
Aye, pretending he was anything but crap is revisionism at its finest.
True - Only part of that is down to the manager though even if you attribute sole responsibility of transfers to him, we still had a bad overall squad when he took over. Antony was way overpriced, I don't really know what drove that but maybe ETH fell out with Sancho early days and wanted anyone but Sancho (we didn't have a proper RW as well) - a bad decision regardless. Mount could've been delayed for other priorities, and was a mistake. With that 140M or so pounds, we should've signed a starting RCB and a starting CDM + two decent squad options for around 100M total. Case also is kind of a mistake in that sense too, we should've considered a younger profile player there - I thought he'd have gone for Edson Alvarez out of the Ajax team that summer instead of Antony tbh and was shocked when he didn't.
Also, while ETH has a say in transfers, do we actually know if he has a say in the fees? My understanding is that Murtough is the one that negotiates while also having the ability to veto? I did read somewhere that even Ten Hag was surprised at Antony's transfer fee (albeit from the English media which I don't usually trust). I'm not saying this to pin the blame on Murtough, but these wouldn't have been one-sided decisions. Manager is still at fault for these mis-spends of course although maybe not solely responsible.
I agree mistakes have been made but this squad still needs open heart surgery because our squad options especially are rubbish - From previous eras, Maguire, AWB, Mctominay, Sancho, Greenwood and perhaps also Victor all need to go for a variety of reasons. As for the starting 11 we've replaced 6, retained 5. 2 of those starters (Varane, Case) need replacing for younger players on more sensible salaries as well.
Whether it's ETH or another manager, I hope they get it right from the negotiations side and stop overpaying for players - part of that will be to start moving really early on transfers and maybe have a larger team negotiating multiple transfers at once rather than one at a time. This whole Murtough going there personally to negotiate transfers one at a time thing is so early 2000s' David Gill
A lot of the narrative around our transfer dealing is we don't plan ahead and have no fallback list of targets, always very reactive. Every window its normally the same story of us calling around late in the window for targets or loans. Every senior member of the current transfer and scouting team need to go. Its not ETH's fault that we overpay, but equally seems he demanded a big say and veto and he mus know if you go back in for Antony or anyone right at end of a window you get rinsed. And we know the scouting had already ruled Antony out, but Murtough and Arnold were too inept or scared to overrule himTrue - Only part of that is down to the manager though even if you attribute sole responsibility of transfers to him, we still had a bad overall squad when he took over. Antony was way overpriced, I don't really know what drove that but maybe ETH fell out with Sancho early days and wanted anyone but Sancho (we didn't have a proper RW as well) - a bad decision regardless. Mount could've been delayed for other priorities, and was a mistake. With that 140M or so pounds, we should've signed a starting RCB and a starting CDM + two decent squad options for around 100M total. Case also is kind of a mistake in that sense too, we should've considered a younger profile player there - I thought he'd have gone for Edson Alvarez out of the Ajax team that summer instead of Antony tbh and was shocked when he didn't.
Also, while ETH has a say in transfers, do we actually know if he has a say in the fees? My understanding is that Murtough is the one that negotiates while also having the ability to veto? I did read somewhere that even Ten Hag was surprised at Antony's transfer fee (albeit from the English media which I don't usually trust). I'm not saying this to pin the blame on Murtough, but these wouldn't have been one-sided decisions. Manager is still at fault for these mis-spends of course although maybe not solely responsible.
I agree mistakes have been made but this squad still needs open heart surgery because our squad options especially are rubbish - From previous eras, Maguire, AWB, Mctominay, Sancho, Greenwood and perhaps also Victor all need to go for a variety of reasons. As for the starting 11 we've replaced 6, retained 5. 2 of those starters (Varane, Case) need replacing for younger players on more sensible salaries as well.
Whether it's ETH or another manager, I hope they get it right from the negotiations side and stop overpaying for players - part of that will be to start moving really early on transfers and maybe have a larger team negotiating multiple transfers at once rather than one at a time. This whole Murtough going there personally to negotiate transfers one at a time thing is so early 2000s' David Gill
Right, which as many of us said even at the time was suicidal thinking Mount and Bruno as dual 8's was a good idea given neither had ever shown the ability to play that role well previously.
He's pulling it off with Mainoo though. Mount is a similar skillset (Ball carrying / progressing, passing, goal scoring, defensive workrate). Sure Mainoo is better defensively but there was a plan there that could've worked.
Arsenal do Rice, Odegaard, Havertz. City just ran Rodri, Alvarez, KdB. It's the standard meta for football. None of Havertz, Odegaard, Alvarez or KdB are really #8s.
I just hate this evaluating a manager strictly on results, because it completely absolves ETH because of his "injury crisis" even though the his tactical setup and in game management has been fecking crap the entire season (and I'm not even counting his transfer decisions).
"Seeing out the year" with slightly improved results and a first choice XI is such a poor way of approaching the decision to keep or sack him, just like it was pathetic that he constantly excused embarrassments because of our injured squad (which has mainly been Martinez/Eriksen/Casemiro hurt as far as long term injuries. It's not like we fielded a bunch of 16 year olds out of desperation). It all just reeks of us getting a few decent results in the run in, finishing 5th, and then saying "ah lets give him another year" as we run it back next year still with the same dogshit pressing structure and haphazard defensive organization while I watch Bruno punt long balls into the channel endlessly.
Considering we've not really controlled either game since Mainoo moved forward, I don't really agree. Arsenal fans hate Havertz at 8 so that's a poor comparison. KDB is probably the best midfielder in PL history so it's pointless using him as the standard given he's shown the versatility to play anywhere and is complete. But in general both Arteta and Pep can afford to utilize forward players as pseudo 8's more because they both have formed a cohesive pressing/defensive structure around them to ensure they get a stranglehold on possession, something we are quite poor at (and honestly Ten Hag doesn't want apparently since he's spoken about wanting to be more direct).
Also both of those teams have top class DM's both on and off the ball that can do the work of two players defensively. Casemiro at this point in his career isn't quite at that level, he's clearly a step slower than he was just a couple of years ago and he's never been close to Rodri's level on the ball.
Yes, this is key and I agree - I just didn't want to overcomplicate the argument in the original post. We can't view the midfield three in isolation, all the pieces together have to make sense and they have to come together into a coherent pressing / build up scheme. Right now we're somewhat of a poor imitation of Arsenal (who in turn are a poor man's City). Player by player I'm not sure we're very far off in individual quality from Arsenal but there's something lacking about our intelligence and movement during build up and pressing and for me that comes down to the quality of the coaching.
I disagree that this midfield has no chance though. I think Casemiro (/ a new DM), Mainoo, Bruno could work especially as Casemiro's fitness levels improve.
I was gonna point out where you're wrong here but it's gonna take too much effort. But just know that you're wrong.
I think it has no chance as long as Ten Hag is the one coaching. Obviously if Pep was manning the touchline for us then yes I think it would be an entirely different story.
Yeah agreed, which makes you question what the hell these people do for a job all year round - Afternoon tea and Golf maybe? While this does not absolve ETH of any blame, you would expect your director of football to at least have an argument with the manager over the fee. Being a business owner myself, I want my employees to have an argument with me if they don't feel like I'm making a good decision, but I also want them to come to me with the actual solution and not just the naysaying - I don't think this is any different for even a large corporation like Man United. Everybody in that team needs to pull in the same direction basically - otherwise it's like if you live in a circus for too long, you eventually become a clown yourself.
I'm guessing the scouts and Murtough in this situation probably didn't even have a solution once they realised it was Antony or bust, which is shambolic. The best way to get rid of the 'United tax' and also to get the right players at the right price for the right wages is to just flirt with many many players through a wider negotiations team throughout the year, and then just pick the ones that offer the best combination of talent, age profile, price and wages - and just buy them early. I mean you don't have to fly to those countries to speak with the agents/clubs about potential fees/wages in this day and age. Another way to go about it is to have an idea of the wages/fees for a particular position and scout only those players that will fit that profile, and just bin everyone else that tries to highball you. I don't see how any of this is very difficult to do, it's basic negotiation tactics. You only need 4-5 players a season and there's around 400 alone in the premier league.
Not sure why you quoted me, if he finishes the season on say 66 points (Ole-esque) & playing shite football I reckon he’ll likely be replaced and he’ll have no-one to blame but himself. He has more than enough of his squad back fit now to show a massive improvement in performances and results between now and May.
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"We've won two in a row against mid-clubs, suck it haters". Forgets to mention we still have a negative GD and are way below 4th.
I get it, if you still have faith in Ten Hag then the negative posts must be annoying, but as a club we are clearly not where we should be and with our players we should be higher up even despite injuries.
It's so true. The EtH-inners are never able to give us any real reasons for keeping him. It's just excuses for not letting him go, such as internal issues, injuries, structure, etc. There's never any reasons proffered for what he's done in spite of the issues -- and every manager has issues to face -- to prove his worth. Under him, all we ever see, whether we win or lose, is the exact same performance game in and game out, where the opponent's gameplan pretty much dictates the game. Week after week, it's just the exact same game we're watching and when we win, it's from moments and when we lose, it's because it's just the same old game we play, the same old 10 minutes at the beginning of something resembling a press-and-possess gameplan which quickly fades away into dropping deeper and deeper, with the passing patterns getting quickly shelved in favour of long balls, long random clearances upfield, finicky, flicked, vertical channel balls on the transition that land up going straight to our opposition. And EtH just stands there and chews and gives slightly negative head-shakes about it all. And then after the game, if we happen to win, we hear from him how we showed passion and togetherness "eh?" with our 40% possession and a few lucky goals but how we needed to control the game better and if we lose, it's we needed to control the game better and we need to improve on that. And then we come out the next week and it's the exact same game we played the week before. It never improves. The passing never improves. The pressing never improves. The gameplan never changes. And we certainly never "control the game better".
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Mid clubs?
West Ham was above us until we beat them, they’ve beat Arsenal this season who are 3rd, they’ve beat spurs this season who are having a great season. They beat us earlier on in the season. As for wolves there no push overs either, they’ve beat spurs also this season and they’ve beat city this season. Going to there ground and winning with a dominate first half display is good progress for us. We’ve beaten 2 solid teams. I’d of been worried if everyone was getting carried away after beating say Burnley and Sheff UtdMy issue is with certiain fans saying that because we've had two back to back good wins, and good performances, we should all just do a complete U-turn on him, as if the past season hasn't happened. I'm obviously delighted with the past two wins, but also deeply concerned that we require our strongest 11 to play any sort of semblance of football and attacking play. What happens next season if we pick up a few injuries again, do we just write off the season?
Exactly this. He already seemed to be pushing Mainoo up the pitch and having Dalot play in the areas Mainoo should be occupying in the West Ham game. In the West Ham game, Mainoo was for the first time since he broke through slightly anonymous because our genius had Dalot in those areas helping Casemiro, because he wanted Mainoo further up the pitch. Mainoo didn't have his best game and was subbed. Mainoo is best helping us play out of the back. Casemiro isn't great at moving the ball through midfield. Case's a decent destroyer but a bit hit and miss with developing possession from the back. Mainoo's already proving himself to be a master at that. But no, because Mainoo scored his first EPL goal the week before, suddenly Erik Transition Hag wants him playing nearer to the pocket behind the forwards helping in transition instead of realising Mainoo's a generational-talent deep-lying playmaker with his composure, movement and short-passing game who might chip in with a goal or two, and that he's not a flipping 8/10 hybrid because he scored one goal. But no, our guy shoves Dalot further into that deep playmaking position, a limited player who now has to run around watching two pots, fullback and this inverted deep-lying position which he's useless at, in addition to assisting a jogging-around Casemiro, whilst trying to move Mainoo further towards attacking areas because he scored one goal, when Mainoo's already clearly a generational-talent deep-lying playmaker. It's just pure tactical, structural and player utilisation cluelessness.
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And which direction is that? Away from the principles he was hired for and towards attempting to play on the transition from literally every situation we find ourselves in, even if we're in our own half?
Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying, thought your point was that ETH wasn’t doing as poorly as Ole when he got sacked and because of injuries he’ll get another go next year. But yes I agree, the excuses are over and there should be significant improvement in the run in.
Beating Wolves away from home the bare minimum? Are you aware they were unbeaten at home since September?
When you say things like this I can‘t take you seriously.
My bare minimum: high workrate and a steady improvement in playstyle. Then good things will happen.
After 22 rounds that really says it all. Now we are 2 points above WH and 6 behind 5th.Mid clubs?
I was for Ten Hag when we appointed him and didnt want him to fail, but in my eyes he's showed that he's not to our level - I don't get why some are so hung on who's managing us, SAF is not coming back and the manager is just another staff member who can be replaced.
Doesn't make any fecking sense.
The league gets stronger every year. West Ham are stronger, Brighton are stronger, spurs are stronger. Who is to our level then? Name 1 manager who you think could come in and get us challenging straight away??
Klopp. But joking aside, we don't need someone to get us challenging straight away. We need someone to improve us. It doesn't have to be ETH or someone who gets us challenging right away. If we think ETH is not doing a good job and someone could better, then you move on.
Murtough trying to save his job probably. If Ten Hag is the guy, then he should get the credit for the decisions he took and the transfers we've made since we've signed Ten Hag.
Conversely, if Ten Hag ends up being a dud, every single question that led to this moment including the FdJ saga, the overpay for Casemiro and Antony, the Mount and Onana transfers will all be in the spotlight. I don't see a way he can survive in his job if Ten Hag gets sacked.
Yeah literally no one expects a new manager to get us challenging immediately. People didn't even expect that out of Ten Hag this season, just a progression in our play to further control games and score more goals along with a T4 finish and getting out of UCL groups. And he's fecking failed on each of those fronts miserably so far.
Agreed on the bolded, and we haven't despite spending hundreds of millions but the opposite has happened.
I didnt expect us to be challenging but I was expecting improvement.
Its getting too late for any manager with a reputation to see our season out but I would have taken a shot with Julen Lopetegui or Flick as an interim. For a longer contract I would need to actually get paid to hold talks with potential managers...
Even he wouldn’t get us challenging straight away. Did you see his first few seasons with Liverpool… and even with Liverpool he’s still only won 1 premier league title. During there best years and our worse. I agree that we need improvement though season by season. We’ve hit a brick wall this season but I think he’s aloud to use the excuse that he’s had his best players injured for most of the season.. to be fair to him he’s backed his word up when he said we’ll see results when players are back. We’ve had 2 out of 2 wins with arguably our strongest side and scored 3+ in them both.
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