Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[bosnian_red]

Yes but you are not really getting his point. He clearly believes that the team is not performing to a standard in terms of chance creation, control, defensive errors etc. None of this is reflected in XG. In fact the fact that we create so few chances makes it unsurprising we overperform XG.

Overperforming on XG does not take away from his point that the team is actually underperforming in terms of standards. He isn't fighting the point that we just aren't clinical enough, he's saying in his own words, we just aren't playing well enough in various areas of the game.

I don't see how a manager can say that as anything but a horrible reflection on himself. He is the one who has to coach things like control, chance creation, reduce defensive errors, etc... what we see on the pitch is a reflection of his coaching. I'd understand complaints about finishing, but his complaints here are either basically saying the team isn't coached well, or the players available aren't capable of performing better than a bottom half side. Which is nonsense.

 

[VP89]

I don't see how a manager can say that as anything but a horrible reflection on himself. He is the one who has to coach things like control, chance creation, reduce defensive errors, etc... what we see on the pitch is a reflection of his coaching. I'd understand complaints about finishing, but his complaints here are either basically saying the team isn't coached well, or the players available aren't capable of performing better than a bottom half side. Which is nonsense.

Right, that's a separate debate but for what it's worth he's come out and taken full accountability for it. He's hanging his hat on injuries being the reason, but he is saying the team is underperforming relative to the standards they set.

I disagree with his injury point, because we've had many moments in the final third of Bournemouth, Forrest and West ham and did nothing with it. Our attack isn't where the injuries are hurting us as much, so it's not adding up.

 

[bond19821982]

I still want him to be given a chance when the injured players return . But it's concerning though. We aren't creating chances, we aren't controlling games and we aren't defending well. Surely , one of it needs to be right by now ?

 

[VP89]

And what do you base this on other than having watched us for 18 months?

Peppering the final third... I've heard it all now.

Based on the fact that we are actually in threatening positions a lot of the times when we lost to my named games (you can rewatch them if your memory is ill served). But our attackers haven't done anything with their moments when they venture into a threatening area.

Objectively I don't think Rashford hojlund and Antony are technically polished enough. Heck I classed Rashford as a player who wouldn't be elite quality before his amazing season last year and I stand by it. Antony obviously is shite and Hojlund shouldn't be our starting striker.

It points to poor player evaluation for transfers for me, but I don't think we've been royally dicked on in a few losses. For example palace, Bournemouth, West ham, Forrest we didn't look disjointed as a team. Just absolute shite in silly mistakes and blunt when we had the ball in threatening areas (multiple times).

 

[Rista]

And what do you base this on other than having watched us for 18 months?

Peppering the final third... I've heard it all now.

Last season we won the Carabao cup. This season the peppering the final third trophy is ours. We'll be fine, coaching is good.

 

[PoTMS]

Based on the fact that we are actually in threatening positions a lot of the times when we lost to my named games (you can rewatch them if your memory is ill served). But our attackers haven't done anything with their moments when they venture into a threatening area.

Objectively I don't think Rashford hojlund and Antony are technically polished enough. Heck I classed Rashford as a player who wouldn't be elite quality before his amazing season last year and I stand by it. Antony obviously is shite and Hojlund shouldn't be our starting striker.

It points to poor player evaluation for transfers for me, but I don't think we've been royally dicked on in a few losses. For example palace, Bournemouth, West ham, Forrest we didn't look disjointed as a team. Just absolute shite in silly mistakes and blunt when we had the ball in threatening areas (multiple times).

This is surely parody, right?

 

[VP89]

This is surely parody, right?

Are you saying we didn't enter threatening areas of the pitch in those games with a decent frequency?

 

[PoTMS]

Are you saying we didn't enter threatening areas of the pitch in those games with a decent frequency?

To make it clear, by being in 'threatening positions', you mean we ventured into the final third? Or sorry, as you put it we peppered the final third. And that somehow absolves any coaching issues. Fecking hell, mate. There's reaching and then there's this.

 

[VP89]

To make it clear, by being in 'threatening positions', you mean we ventured into the final third? Or sorry, as you put it we peppered the final third. Fecking hell, mate. There's reaching and then there's this.

There were periods where we were. In any case, are you claiming we didn't get into the final third and have moments to deliver a cross or beat a man or show technical superiority to get a good chance out, or a goal?

 

[chocolate cloud]

We're adrift in a sea of mediocrity. It's sad what the club has become

 

[PoTMS]

There were periods where we were. In any case, are you claiming we didn't get into the final third and have moments to deliver a cross or beat a man or show technical superiority to get a good chance out, or a goal?

I don't even know how to reply this. You speak as if it's some sort of novel idea that Manchester United would ever be in the final third. Of course we did, that was never the argument. I'm sorry, I'm struggling to understand how this basic premise of a football team entering the final third relates to us being coached well? Any fecker can do that all the way down to Sunday league, you don't need to be a master tactician to do that.

 

[VP89]

I don't even know how to reply this. You speak as if it's some sort of novel idea that Manchester United would ever be in the final third. Of course we did, that was never the argument. I'm sorry, I'm struggling to understand how this basic premise of a football team entering the final third relates to us being coached well?

In a lot of our losses we've had more than just occasionally going into their area. Palace Bournemouth and West ham losses for example were all games where we had anything between 65-70% possession in the game and controlled them. We made idiotic errors at the back, which you sort of expect for a side with so many defensive injuries, but we also did feck all when we had it in threatening areas (which we had more than the opposition on), which is what you expect when your attack is technically sub par.

A poorly coached side, a la Ole toward the end, wouldn't control games and generally look lost in all areas of the pitch.

 

[crossy1686]

Yes. Solksjaer for example wasn't told what the Amad fee needed and didn't know what was paid until it was done.

I'm fine for blaming ten hags coaching and tactics and subs, and I am royally pissed off with a lot of that. I just don't want to hang a criticism had on the transfers because we sucked before him and would have probably sucked after him in that department if INEOS never came

I hear you, after that article came out I did reflect on my criticism of those things and decided to cut him some slack on those transfers seeing as there is a chance he genuinely didn’t know the final fee, although I do believe he would have been consulted at some point in regards to how badly he wanted these players, which could have indicated the fee.

Anyway, these things will go away if he gets the players he signed playing well, which I doubt he’s actually capable of.

 

[crossy1686]

Genuine question...

How many players have improved under him in the last 18 months? Purple patches to win lucrative contracts don't count.

Everyone did at one point but it wasn’t maintained for more than a few months. Which begs the question, is the football he wants to play sustainable in the PL anyway?

 

[ayushreddevil9]

In a lot of our losses we've had more than just occasionally going into their area. Palace Bournemouth and West ham losses for example were all games where we had anything between 65-70% possession in the game and controlled them. We made idiotic errors at the back, which you sort of expect for a side with so many defensive injuries, but we also did feck all when we had it in threatening areas (which we had more than the opposition on), which is what you expect when your attack is technically sub par.

A poorly coached side, a la Ole toward the end, wouldn't control games and generally look lost in all areas of the pitch.

How is this different than what we are seeing lately?

 

[VP89]

How is this different than what we are seeing lately?

We are controlling a lot of games that were losing in, and we are showing spirit after losing to try and dominate the game, albeit with absolute blunt play after we venture in the final third.

Towards Oles end I don't think we bounce back to random wins against say, Villa or Chelsea. I think when it went down under Ole and maybe even Jose, it was just a lot worse. With ten hag the end results are probably worse (and that's what matters, I get it), but I don't think it's a coaching problem.

Whilst defending his coaching, I can't defend his lack of adaptability to the league, or his player evaluation or his in game subs this season. I can't defend this many losses, so even if he is coaching well and even if he is cursed with a lot injuries, he can't ride that out for long.

 

[RORY65]

In a lot of our losses we've had more than just occasionally going into their area. Palace Bournemouth and West ham losses for example were all games where we had anything between 65-70% possession in the game and controlled them. We made idiotic errors at the back, which you sort of expect for a side with so many defensive injuries, but we also did feck all when we had it in threatening areas (which we had more than the opposition on), which is what you expect when your attack is technically sub par.

A poorly coached side, a la Ole toward the end, wouldn't control games and generally look lost in all areas of the pitch.

Having possession isn't the same as controlling the games, we're playing with an 18 year old as our only midfielder so even if we have more of the ball teams can get through us pretty easily. Bournemouth scored 3 times, had a goal disallowed that was very close and hit the post, there's no world in which that was a well-coached, controlled game. Largely vacating the midfield and putting so much on a youngster means we almost never will control games.

The one thing I do agree with you is that unlike under Ole they're trying to do something which is quite identifiable, it's just what they're trying to do isn't working and doesn't seem to really make sense.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

We are controlling a lot of games that were losing in, and we are showing spirit after losing to try and dominate the game, albeit with absolute blunt play after we venture in the final third.

Towards Oles end I don't think we bounce back to random wins against say, Villa or Chelsea. I think when it went down under Ole and maybe even Jose, it was just a lot worse. With ten hag the end results are probably worse (and that's what matters, I get it), but I don't think it's a coaching problem.

Whilst defending his coaching, I can't defend his lack of adaptability to the league, or his player evaluation or his in game subs this season. I can't defend this many losses, so even if he is coaching well and even if he is cursed with a lot injuries, he can't ride that out for long.

No we aren't. If you think having more possession is controlling then you're mistaken. In fact teams are happy with us having more of the ball because everyone associated with football knows that we have no clues on what to do with the ball. All opponent needs to do is maintain their shape and they make quick work of us.

Bournemouth did that, West Ham did that. None of our attackers know whats happening after a certain sequence of passes happens. There are no late runs into the box, nobody anticipates a cross.

This is worse than Ole and other managers.

 

[VP89]

Having possession isn't the same as controlling the games, we're playing with an 18 year old as our only midfielder so even if we have more of the ball teams can get through us pretty easily. Bournemouth scored 3 times, had a goal disallowed that was very close and hit the post, there's no world in which that was a well-coached, controlled game. Largely vacating the midfield and putting so much on a youngster means we almost never will control games.

The one thing I do agree with you is that unlike under Ole they're trying to do something which is quite identifiable, it's just what they're trying to do isn't working and doesn't seem to really make sense.

Bournemouth I feel the wheels fell off after the first or second goal. Sort of like West Ham when we were cruising, missed an open goal and then just got done in at the 70th minute.

But it's also relative to some extent. Spurs are being outplayed more despite winning right now vs Bournemouth? (I'm told, not actually actively watching the game). West ham played a much better game to Arsenal away as they did with us at home. Palace is another mental one, they just camped for the game.

I also think a couple of wins were pretty controlled and we should have scored more in, Chelsea and Villa being the two latest.

 

[RORY65]

Bournemouth I feel the wheels fell off after the first or second goal. Sort of like West Ham when we were cruising, missed an open goal and then just got done in at the 70th minute.

But it's also relative to some extent. Spurs are being outplayed more despite winning right now vs Bournemouth? (I'm told, not actually actively watching the game). West ham played a much better game to Arsenal away as they did with us at home. Palace is another mental one, they just camped for the game.

I will give you the Palace one, that was a definite smash and grab, and I think a lot of this post is fair. I just disagree with the idea of "controlling" some of these games where we have more of the ball, I think Ten Hag has almost decided to cede control to get more players in attacking areas (which is working in terms of us winning the ball high quite a lot) but that hasn't led to an uptick in goals and has made us very open.

 

[VP89]

I will give you the Palace one, that was a definite smash and grab, and I think a lot of this post is fair. I just disagree with the idea of "controlling" some of these games where we have more of the ball, I think Ten Hag has almost decided to cede control to get more players in attacking areas (which is working in terms of us winning the ball high quite a lot) but that hasn't led to an uptick in goals and has made us very open.

Forrest scored with their two shots on target yesterday?

 

[RORY65]

Forrest scored with their two shots on target yesterday?

They're one of the worst teams in the league and their 2 goals came from shots by midfielders in acres of space around the edge of our area with our 2 more advanced midfielders nowhere near getting back. Those are high quality chances to give up.

Even if we go by shots it was 10-8 in favour of us, several of them coming once we were behind and chasing, that's not a game we've controlled.

 

[Revan]

Bournemouth I feel the wheels fell off after the first or second goal. Sort of like West Ham when we were cruising, missed an open goal and then just got done in at the 70th minute.

But it's also relative to some extent. Spurs are being outplayed more despite winning right now vs Bournemouth? (I'm told, not actually actively watching the game). West ham played a much better game to Arsenal away as they did with us at home. Palace is another mental one, they just camped for the game.

I also think a couple of wins were pretty controlled and we should have scored more in, Chelsea and Villa being the two latest.

Against Villa? Are you kidding me? We essentially had one good chance that Garnacho scored and two half chances converted by Garnacho and Hojlund. Our xG was around 1, much lower than Villa’s (lucky first goal, sitter for the second, then one great save by Onana and one sitter blocked by Evans).

The issue is that was arguably our best performance of the season, and we were very lucky to end with 3 points. In fact, based on chances, we could have easily ended with 0 points.

Our xPts is 13th in the league. That is a mid table team that fights relegation. Which is how we are playing this season. Very lucky wins, often in the stoppage time against the run of play surrounded by completely deserved losses. I don’t think there is a single match when we could say we deserved to get more points, and there are a few when you can say we were lucky to get the points we get.

 

[VP89]

They're one of the worst teams in the league and their 2 goals came from shots by midfielders in acres of space around the edge of our area with our 2 more advanced midfielders nowhere near getting back. Those are high quality chances to give up.

Even if we go by shots it was 10-8 in favour of us, several of them coming once we were behind and chasing, that's not a game we've controlled.

No, under Nuno they've been a completely different outfit.

 

[VP89]

Against Villa? Are you kidding me? We essentially had one good chance that Garnacho scored and two half chances converted by Garnacho and Hojlund. Our xG was around 1, much lower than Villa’s (lucky first goal, sitter for the second, then one great save by Onana and one sitter blocked by Evans).

The issue is that was arguably our best performance of the season, and we were very lucky to end with 3 points. In fact, based on chances, we could have easily ended with 0 points.

Our xPts is 13th in the league. That is a mid table team that fights relegation. Which is how we are playing this season. Very lucky wins, often in the stoppage time against the run of play surrounded by completely deserved losses.

Its in line with my point though. I hate having subdebates with different posters because they misconstrue what I'm trying to say. We attacked the shit out of villa, and had our attackers been better we'd punish them with a lot more chances.

I think we got in lot of positions to create and score more than we did. Villas attack is objectively better than ours, and as wild as it sounds it's true. That is on ten hag and the DoF for sure though but my point is our attack is bang average on quality. Not remotely close to what's needed for top 4.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

No, under Nuno they've been a completely different outfit.

So in 3 games they managed to become a completely different outfit but we couldn't do it in 18 months under ETH.

Sounds about right.

 

[Red Dreams]

So Hojlund was out.
Instead of playing Rashford on the left and Garnacho on the right where they were excellent he plays Rashford as a striker and plays Garnacho on the left.
He gives Anthony a chance because it is 'only Forest'

He should have play Pellistri as a striker. Amad could have ben brought in later if needed.

In midfield he needs to accept that Eriksen is a spent force.
It should be Mainoo and Amrabat or Gore.

We threw away 3 points.

 

[RORY65]

No, under Nuno they've been a completely different outfit.

It's been 3 games, 33% of them were against us. They still have one of the weaker squads in the league, having a fairly even game against them is not a strong argument that we're controlling games.

 

[Revan]

Its in line with my point though. I hate having subdebates with different posters because they misconstrue what I'm trying to say. We attacked the shit out of villa, and had our attackers been better we'd punish them with a lot more chances.

I think we got in lot of positions to create and score more than we did. Villas attack is objectively better than ours, and as wild as it sounds it's true. That is on ten hag and the DoF for sure though but my point is our attack is bang average on quality. Not remotely close to what's needed for top 4.

But we didn’t batter Villa. Just cause we played better than we usually do, it doesn’t mean we battered Villa. They had the better chances. They had higher xG. They had higher posession. They had more passes. They had more passes in the final third, they had more touches in our box. They had more corners.

To our credit, we had 3 more shots. And more offsides.

Even if you argue that we were the better team (extremely debatable), it is nonsense to claim that we battered them. If we battered Villa, then Liverpool completely tortured us (but I guess you would argue that we deserved to win that match based on Hojlund’s chance).

 

[Redstain]

I am arguing his stance that we are underperforming this season by saying actually, we are lucky to have 31 points on the season, and our actual performance levels probably deserves 5-10 points fewer.

Exactly, this is easily the worst sustained period under a manager that has been experienced under any manager post SAF. The league table is doing the team and manager massive favours because the performance levels are absolutely abysmal. You can't put this season down to anything else other than capitulation. This is the worst I've seen United, the team could lose against the bottom three and so many wouldn't bat an eyelid.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Funny that if you so a simple analytical study in this, you see that we are overperforming this season more than last season relative to our actual performance levels.

• This season we have the 3rd highest xPts overperformance, with 31 pts but 23.78 xPts (7.22 more over just 20 games) - Spurs and West Ham have higher. This ranks us 13th in the table
• Last season we again had the 3rd highest xPts overperformance, with 75 points from 66.40 xPts, which ranked us 6th. Only Fulham and Arsenal had higher.

Last season visually we looked like a solid top 6 side, maybe the most fragile of the lot (and a crazy fixture list) but a similar level. Some variance and we are 3rd, and xPts did represent that, not a whole lot in it. This season we look like a bottom half club when you watch us, and xPts has us 13th, almost certainly dropping to 14th after the weekend games.

So it's pretty easily to take a more analytical dive into our season and see that it's in fact even worse than what the table shows. Whatever about injuries. We should not be playing that poorly. We are not a bottom half squad, we are not a relegation level attacking unit. That's coaching, that's on Ten Hag.

We were not over performing last year. We played shit for most of it and finished 3rd. Nothing extreme from seasons past

 

[VP89]

It's been 3 games, 33% of them were against us. They still have one of the weaker squads in the league, having a fairly even game against them is not a strong argument that we're controlling games.

But saying how they are this season and purposely ignoring they're a very different outfit under Nuno than Cooper is also not a strong argument.

Im happy to park the Villa game aside, as I'm reminded they went at us as much if not more. However we weren't exactly outplayed by Forrest anymore than Spurs were when they scraped through them. We were controlling West Ham, and we were controlling Palace. I think Chelsea was kamakazee and played into our hands but I don't think we ever let them take momentum.

 

[DJ_21]

We were not over performing last year. We played shit for most of it and finished 3rd. Nothing extreme from seasons past

It helped that Liverpool wasn’t at their best last year.

 

[VP89]

But we didn’t batter Villa. Just cause we played better than we usually do, it doesn’t mean we battered Villa. They had the better chances. They had higher xG. They had higher posession. They had more passes. They had more passes in the final third, they had more touches in our box. They had more corners.

To our credit, we had 3 more shots. And more offsides.

Even if you argue that we were the better team (extremely debatable), it is nonsense to claim that we battered them. If we battered Villa, then Liverpool completely tortured us (but I guess you would argue that we deserved to win that match based on Hojlund’s chance).

You're misquoting me, I didn't say battered villa. But I do concede that villa were at us more than we were at them, if your stats are accurate.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Are you saying we didn't enter threatening areas of the pitch in those games with a decent frequency?

We have but then the players don’t know what to do with the ball and where they should be or what to do with it. You can’t tell me all the other teams in the league have better players than us and that’s why they score goals. Our coach has just confused fecknout of our players, can’t get ideas across after a year and half or doesn’t know what to do to get chances created.
It’s all well and good pressing high and winning the ball or kicking it long and getting near their box but if the players don’t know what to do with it (nothing to do with their intelligence) then it’s going to make creating chances difficult and then rely on individual skill, thats where maybe our forward are lacking but there’s hundreds of football teams who don’t need the best of the best to be able to score

 

[VP89]

We have but then the players don’t know what to do with the ball and where they should be or what to do with it. You can’t tell me all the other teams in the league have better players than us and that’s why they score goals. Our coach has just confused fecknout of our players, can’t get ideas across after a year and half or doesn’t know what to do to get chances created.
It’s all well and good pressing high and winning the ball or kicking it long and getting near their box but if the players don’t know what to do with it (nothing to do with their intelligence) then it’s going to make creating chances difficult and then rely on individual skill, thats where maybe our forward are lacking but there’s hundreds of football teams who don’t need the best of the best to be able to score

I suppose it's a question of how maticulously do they need to be coached when they are in the final third? He has them able to get into threatening areas often enough but the decision making is so bad. Is that an experience issue or a coaching one, or a technical limitation of the players? It's probably a combination.

 

[Juice Juiced]

He is lucky we took gamble with him. Cant believe that he is still at the job.

 

[astracrazy]

You misunderstand me, I was referring to VP89 and the ongoing discussion, not you.

Sorry my mistake

 

[astracrazy]

ETH cult all the way eh?

How dare the club just trust ETH and go buy Antony whom he desperately wanted? Terrible financial decision.

Also, how dare the club overrule ETH and buy him Mount, who may not have been first choice, for financial reasons.

If you are referring to me, I called for him out last night. It's quiet sad that we are in a position where if you don't blame EtH for everything now you must be part of a cult or something. Surely over the last 10 years we have learnt not everything is the managers fault.

Ok he wanted him. Makes sense. That would explain why we were linked to him right at the start for June for 60M euros. Hardly EtH fault it was left to the end of the window to sign him for an inflated price - sounds familiar, like we might have done that before...

Not sure why you keep saying how dare they....thats the whole point of having a DOF.

 

[erikcred]

If you are referring to me, I called for him out last night. It's quiet sad that we are in a position where if you don't blame EtH for everything now you must be part of a cult or something. Surely over the last 10 years we have learnt not everything is the managers fault.

Ok he wanted him. Makes sense. That would explain why we were linked to him right at the start for June for 60M euros. Hardly EtH fault it was left to the end of the window to sign him for an inflated price - sounds familiar, like we might have done that before...

Not sure why you keep saying how dare they....thats the whole point of having a DOF.

I was pointing out the contradiction in your post that makes it seem like ETH can do no wrong in your eyes.

You're blaming the club for buying him Antony for crazy money and then also blaming the club for going above him to buy him Mount because it was more financially prudent.

Disclaimer: You're completely guessing on the Mount business and I went along with it to make my point.