Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
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Then you don't know whats happening here, I literally said last night he had to go.....
People perhaps need to see the bigger picture. If it all played out how people say it did then nothing above the manager has changed and its all BS. Failure in transfers, be it price paid or the players themselves, should be ultimately falling on Murtough. Its not football manager.
You misunderstand me, I was referring to VP89 and the ongoing discussion, not you.
I just won’t accept the current injuries as an excuse as to why our attack is woeful and inept. It’s not all on him. But I don’t see how he’s improving this group as an attacking force. We just look utterly clueless in far too many aspects.
These are the players he wanted. What happens when he has to coach players someone else chooses for him
Because this is RedCafe where previous managers get vindicated because the current one isn't working out. Then the revisionism will start in full force whereby it'll be made out that the previous manager was actually pretty good and had us playing some decent stuff. It's just a weird RedCafe thing.
Not one person I know outside of this place ever brings up any of our post-Fergie managers and talks about them in a positive light. We'll be here at some point under the next man where ETH will all of a sudden be vindicated.
Indeed. The question I keep asking myself is whether people expect bottom half teams that have worse players and unbalanced squads to consistently look like they have never trained together, because that's how United performes on a weekly basis? I don't know if it will make sense but the structure of a club is generally at fault when we are talking about the ceiling of a team but here our issue is the floor which is something that is supposed to be dictated by the head coach, that's the difference between a good and a bad coach, the good coach even at his worst find ways to elevate the floor of his team.
Also Antony is a symbol of ETH uselessness. Antony in 18 months has been tragic both in terms of his performances and his lack of improvement, yet ETH has seemingly made no effort to find solutions. You have to wonder what is the point of even employing a head coach.
ETH cult all the way eh?
How dare the club just trust ETH and go buy Antony whom he desperately wanted? Terrible financial decision.
Also, how dare the club overrule ETH and buy him Mount, who may not have been first choice, for financial reasons.
What he’s got left on his deal. Same way Poch stayed out of work post Spurs for so long because they were paying him long after he left. Unless the manager agrees to a reduced settlement you can’t just rip up a contract.
I would guess that things get better, that's what his past history shows. Head coaches aren't used to pick players for themselves and whenever I see it happening the head coach makes ridiculous choices.
The idea of improving our structures is so we don't keep on underperforming managers past their sell by date and let them buy whoever they please. I think there's some confusion as to what the word structure means. ETH is failing all on his own.
In a season he had two record CL winners starting, imagine them both hearing those comments. Embarrassing.
With the injured players coming back, Ten Hag is banking on them to hit the ground running. The likes of Shaw, Martinez, Casemiro, Mount etc..
This has been an ongoing issue for years that seems to be at its absolute worst now. We played our best under Ole as a counterattacking team. Our two best recent results, against Chelsea and Villa, were against a bloody awful defence and one stubbornly playing a stupid high line after Garnacho and Rashford battered it time and again. When it comes to trying to technically break a team down we're just found wanting, lacking in crossing ability (and a dominant striker in the area), and the ability to beat a man face-to-face. I really like Garnacho, but it was so tedious yesterday watching him run into defenders and losing the ball and his passing into the area isn't consistent. Rashford looks much the same as well.
The absolute nadir of the game for me was watching a pretty decent cross go into the area (for once) and there was no one in the middle, not a single person. The one time someone got it right, there was no one to receive.
It's not complicated. The budget evidently wasn't the top end budget that was communicated to him at the start of the window. It points to poor planning and structure if budgets can change on the fly like that. It's just a glimpse of how unorganised they are.
I acknowledge that we have tried every manager out there and the results have been underwhelming every time. And we can point to the club hierarchy for this. Managers trying to steer a rudderless ship, with no uniformed direction of travel, a scatter gun approach to transfers, good money being thrown at bad decisions. You can concede to all of that.
But the fact remains that since the Wolves game at home this season, we have seen our fullbacks overlapped by teams doubling up on them, then a simple sideways pass into the middle for a midfield runner, who is not tracked, to slot the ball into the net. We have seen this same goal scored on so many occasions, even 2 or 3 times in the same game, that we now expect it every time the opposition runs at us.
You would think that after the Wolves game, we would re-group and discuss how easy it was for the opposition to run straight through our midfield, or how the full-backs are too easy to overlap without the support of the winger tracking back, or why midfield runners aren't followed into the box. These things would be ironed out quickly and resolved at most top clubs. Yet, we are still seeing this same pattern of play 4 months later.
So you have to consider that this is a tactic, to throw more bodies higher up the pitch, to press the opposition. Create more opportunities to turn the ball over, to score more goals from the opposition making mistakes. Well, that's not working either. They are playing through our press, and then trotting into our box for a tap in. We are on a par with relegation sides for goals scored, so having more players in forward positions doesn't work either.
Now I am not a football coach. But I can see that everything we are trying is failing. And it is being repeated game after game. With no measures or attempts to adapt our tactics to stop teams exploiting us with such ease. And teams have worked us out far too easily I thought we had an elite manager who could out fox the opposition, but everyone seems to be out doing him. And not by being particularly brilliant at it. They just have to copy what everybody else has been doing all season. Let United have the ball, wait for them to lose it, counter attack and score. Nobody will track back or follow runners. You will be unmarked in the box. Rinse and repeat.
We were actually better than this during the first few seasons of OGS. Where we sat back and defended, then hit teams on the counter. I'd rather concede possession and win, than have the ball and lose like this. When we have the ball, we don't do anything with it. Every passage of play goes out to the wingers, but the wingers don't cross and only want to cut inside and shoot. Everybody knows what they are going to do, so it is easy to push them out wide and let them run down blind alleys.
Overall, I am really underwhelmed with this manager. And even with everybody back fit, these tactics that he stubbornly won't change or adapt will be the down fall of his tenure here.
But the fact remains that since the Wolves game at home this season, we have seen our fullbacks overlapped by teams doubling up on them, then a simple sideways pass into the middle for a midfield runner, who is not tracked, to slot the ball into the net. We have seen this same goal scored on so many occasions, even 2 or 3 times in the same game, that we now expect it every time the opposition runs at us.
You would think that after the Wolves game, we would re-group and discuss how easy it was for the opposition to run straight through our midfield, or how the full-backs are too easy to overlap without the support of the winger tracking back, or why midfield runners aren't followed into the box. These things would be ironed out quickly and resolved at most top clubs. Yet, we are still seeing this same pattern of play 4 months later.
So you have to consider that this is a tactic, to throw more bodies higher up the pitch, to press the opposition. Create more opportunities to turn the ball over, to score more goals from the opposition making mistakes. Well, that's not working either. They are playing through our press, and then trotting into our box for a tap in. We are on a par with relegation sides for goals scored, so having more players in forward positions doesn't work either.
Now I am not a football coach. But I can see that everything we are trying is failing. And it is being repeated game after game. With no measures or attempts to adapt our tactics to stop teams exploiting us with such ease. And teams have worked us out far too easily I thought we had an elite manager who could out fox the opposition, but everyone seems to be out doing him. And not by being particularly brilliant at it. They just have to copy what everybody else has been doing all season. Let United have the ball, wait for them to lose it, counter attack and score. Nobody will track back or follow runners. You will be unmarked in the box. Rinse and repeat.
We were actually better than this during the first few seasons of OGS. Where we sat back and defended, then hit teams on the counter. I'd rather concede possession and win, than have the ball and lose like this. When we have the ball, we don't do anything with it. Every passage of play goes out to the wingers, but the wingers don't cross and only want to cut inside and shoot. Everybody knows what they are going to do, so it is easy to push them out wide and let them run down blind alleys.
Overall, I am really underwhelmed with this manager. And even with everybody back fit, these tactics that he stubbornly won't change or adapt will be the down fall of his tenure here.
Yes. Solksjaer for example wasn't told what the Amad fee needed and didn't know what was paid until it was done.
I'm fine for blaming ten hags coaching and tactics and subs, and I am royally pissed off with a lot of that. I just don't want to hang a criticism had on the transfers because we sucked before him and would have probably sucked after him in that department if INEOS never came
Mind elaborating?
His current team is made up of players given to him at utd and some players who were also given to him at Ajax at some point. For some reason he wanted them again here. Why wouldn't the club trust him on that if they thought he's competent at managing them?
It's not like he went and scouted Bebe and asked the club to sign him sight unseen.
People talk about effort, tools being downed, being slow and all kind of things related to mentality but none of it is actually true. We generally win or play admirably through sheer effort, what we don't do is dominate technically, we are subpar technical team even a talent like Garnacho lacks high end technical ability. The other day someone posted a highlight of Berbatov and the lad would look like martian compared to our current best technician, I don't even know who in this team would be labelled as a technician.
I mean if this is true for ETHs signings, really particularly Anthony then we really are shambolic. Surely he must have been aware that we were going to outlay c£80m on him being the vast majority of his transfer funds. I fully accept that he wouldn't personally negotiate but he must have been involved in sanctioning a fee in that ballpark, I mean it's one thing for an unknown like Amad where no one in the club beyond the scouts would have known more (e.g. this is not someone OGS had worked with) but when your club manager knows a player better than any of our scouts could do, and personally recommended them, I think it would be insane if he wasn't very aware of what the situation was on the transfer fee. Although given the decisions we've made post SAF anything is possible!
More generally I think what is particularly worrying for me is that he doesn't seem to learn from his and the teams mistakes. I've felt for a while that we have too many players who think they're better than they are but you would at least home the mgr + coaches have a more objective view of the players and that doesn't seem to be the case. We make the same mistakes again and again but we don't learn.
Overall I'm still torn on what we should do. I don't know enough about who's out there that would be worth bringing in at this stage and a big part of me thinks there is still a lot of blame to assign to the players and our overall recruitment/retention strategy really since SAF, but at the same time I really struggle to believe that both defensively and offensively this is the best the players could do. If we did change managers though we have to have a clear vision in the club on what players should stay and be part of the squad and which need to be moved in e.g. can't be a case that the players get a blank slate again or that a new manager can get whoever they want.
I would be willing to buy into this if there was any evidence of him doing so here - with players he found here.
His past history is one of a good head coach that works under a DOF who build the squad. And no you shouldn't trust him for building a squad or picking expensive assets because it wasn't his job in the past and he has no track record of being good at it.
Transfers are his biggest failing given he wanted such a big say.
Good post.
I don't disagree about individual class of players being important when attacking 9 men behind the ball. But even in that scenario, coaching makes a difference by increasing their chances of success by coaching movement and patterns in and around the box. And by being brave in your set up by getting more players in support to your wide players.
But yes you can see the difference players make. Amad vs Antony in the final 3rd. McT vs Mainoo. Even here it's on the coach to be brave and play the youngsters over established/ senior/ big money signings.
Amad, Mainoo, Martinez, lesser extent Shaw. Mejbri too imo, but he hasn't shown it in the first team
He had a veto on transfer targets and so did the club which I don't think is abnormal. But as per the Athletic article, the club was in no way set up to offer their own alternatives or challenge his suggestions with anyone who knows their stuff. I think that is the real problem.
If INEOS keep a veto structure, I'd imagine it works better because Mitchell or Edwards can come out with better scouted targets to suppliment ten hags list.
Antony for example was also wanted by the club, not just ten hag. They wanted him when Ole was stil here. I would imagine a better DoF and scout structure would have better names.
I don't think any of these players are technicians in the elite sense.
Unlike most I'm on the fence regarding sack, as I feel our pressing has improved a lot last few games since Newcastle. However reading a lot of the posts regarding his coaching which I agree with, that's made it harder for me to say keep him.
This is just stupid and unacceptably bad coaching
This is just stupid and unacceptably bad coaching
I get that and I don't disagree but I would add a little twist. I think that part is on United, for some reason managers believe that they can just purchase and discard whoever they want and don't have to make any compromises, it seems to be the initial position, we have seen that with everyone from Moyes blocking transfers because he wanted to be the one scouting the players to LVG stating that he believed that United could buy anyone they wanted, to Mourinho discarding players for the sake of it and now ETH. Part of it is probably due to how much the club has been willing to spend during a manager first window, it gives them the illusion of playing Football Manager with an in-game editor.
Now I should say that it's a theory, I could be wrong.
Yeah, I was wondering that myself when I posted it. I guess these are the ones who come closest
But you can't play 4-3-3 with McTominay
And if you think we are playing 4-2-3-1 now...
He might be able to win the odd away game against cannon fodder with them all back. That'll be massive progress.
The players you listed are on the top end for us, but among elite technicians they are Sunday league players. None of them are technically consistent, as an example Valencia at his best had the ability to control any passes blasted in his direction, he had no left foot but his right foot was technically great, none of our current players match that.
Every single game our football is slow and directionless until we concede, then we wake up and have some urgency to our play. This has got to be tactical decision as it has happened in nearly every single game this season.
Top managers have their teams starting every game at 100mph. We barely ever go above 30 with ETH.
And Valencia was seen as a donkey back then in relation to what we had and what had gone before him.
So many of the lesser lights of those old squads would be elite in this shambles we have.
Imagine Nani or Berbatov rocking up now. The fanbase would erect statues for both!
Genuine question...
How many players have improved under him in the last 18 months? Purple patches to win lucrative contracts don't count.
How many players have improved under him in the last 18 months? Purple patches to win lucrative contracts don't count.
The only thing decent he and the club did this summer is bringing Hojlund, so imo that is not one of his undoings. Everything else was absolutely criminal. Splashing 60m on Mount, 50M on Onana while going into the season with loaned in CDM Amrabat, an obviously declining Casemiro, not fully recovered Martinez, Eriksen as our best CM, and that winger department. Add to that his constant ass licking of Rashford who clearly by his own history over achieved last season. Too many player department issues even if he wsa some tactical genius which he clearly is not.
I think the job just goes to their heads. From the moment they sit in the managers seat, the world's biggest collective blowjob starts by the clubs fanbase.
Even if you come in as a relatively humble guy, you end up thinking you're the second coming of Christ himself within a few weeks.
The fact that ETH is trying, still trying to suggest that our form this year (not just this season..) is due to injuries tells you everything. He's full of ego, which results in a delusional state of mind. It's never his fault and he still maintains that the players are 'with him'. That is just nonsense. The players are there, one game to the next, having a game of football. But there's no real aim, no collective objective or desire. Those players are going through the motions, it's so obvious. Watch Luton, Citeh, Pool', Spurs..Villa, Newcastle. Those players are playing as a team, clearly led by their manager.
We just hope, from game-to-game , that we will be 'good'.
ETH is taking Manchester United FC for a ride and I want him gone end of season.
Wigan will fancy beating us.
We just hope, from game-to-game , that we will be 'good'.
ETH is taking Manchester United FC for a ride and I want him gone end of season.
Wigan will fancy beating us.
Nani is what Antony think he is, and Berba had more talent in his one leg, than Rashford .And Valencia was seen as a donkey back then in relation to what we had and what had gone before him.
So many of the lesser lights of those old squads would be elite in this shambles we have.
Imagine Nani or Berbatov rocking up now. The fanbase would erect statues for both!
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