Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[WPMUFC]

70m on Hojlund to be left stranded with no service.

100m on Antony.....for seemingly no reason beyond he can curl a ball in like Robben sporadically

A starting CB pairing of Jonny flapping Evans and Kamgwala.

A midfield paring of Mainoo and McTom.

Somehow this is one of the most expensive squads in history, yet is filled to the brim with sacrificial academy players, no-talent has-beens and players that think they are world class because they make 200k p/w.

Remember when we started this season with the news that we were signing Evans purely so he could train with us so he could find some championship/league 1 team? NINE GOD DAMN GAMES in our first team.

We've ingrained in the squad that if you hang around long enough, you can outlive any manager. And then you'll get a 200k contract. If ETH gets the sack it will a combo of some dumb decisions on his part (antony being the biggest one) and this club just not giving a flap about being a football club. We have sacked the "old legends" in LVG and Jose. We tried the SAF pick and flopped hard, we've now tried the "up and coming talent" and it's THE SAME DAMN THING. It's always the same. The football never looks any different when it all goes tits up.


But hey don't worry....some british guy is going to buy 25% of the club. Solves everything.

 

[RedBanker]

I think the cult here is hoping that Ratcliffe will give ETH coaching and management lessons too.

 

[VictoriaRed]

Our player recruitment has been appalling. Our scouts are shite. Mainoo and Shaw are the only players I want to see moving forward, to be honest.

 

[RedinIndia]

Sack him.

Him paying 75m for Antony who wasn't even worth 20m is a sackable offense in itself.

 

[croadyman]

Only thing that might save him is the fact we haven’t got the money to sack him. It has to go down on FFP

Yeah see him surviving because of this

 

[Redfrog]

McTominay is currently our best goalscorer, that's why he's playing. It isn't ideal, I agree I'd rather have the likes of Mejbri starting, or Mount or Casemiro when they're fit, but we need someone to put the ball in the net and only one player in the squad at the moment is capable of doing that. There's nothing desperate about playing your best goalscorer, and once our forwards find their scoring boots he'll find his way out of the starting XI very quickly.

How will they find their scoring boots ?

It’s worse then it was. Whatever ETH is doing, is not working.

 

[Judas]

Maybe in training he could work on I don’t know maybe passing in the final third to your striker?

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Honestly, I would sack him right now just to show that there's at least some MINIMUM standards for how a manager should do in this club.

End up with Potter? So be it. Sack him too if he fails.

I agree with this, at least try to save something from this season until there's nothing else to save.

 

[Borys]

Oscillating between single and double pivots, false nines and recycled possession. The personnel isn't there and that is indeed on ten Hag amongst a few others above.

United often compete in matches but do not score.

We play single pivot all the time. The only time he played two man midfield recently was against Arsenal, but let's be honest here, he didn't want to "experiment" with it, he was forced to. Funny thing is, it worked quite well - but since it's against the gaffer idea how to play football, it was dropped as soon as possible (West Ham).
False 9 was dropped as soon as season started, it was only used to give Sancho playing time.
Recycled possession - I don't know what you mean by this. We play transition / counter attacking football and we only get high possession when we're losing and need to chase (opponent is happy to give us the ball).

ETH has not been experimenting with tactics this season, what is my biggest problem with him.

 

[united for life]

I still support ETH and injuries has made things worse. I don't want to sack him simply because he hasn't had his team available this season. He deserves it based on last year.

Having said that, his tactics has been quite shit as well. If this one DM isn't working, why isn't he changing the tactics? If we can't score then why exactly are we still relying the same tactics and players. Atleast with Ole, we knew what we were getting . Defend deep and counter in big games. Other games, it's down to individual brilliance.

Hope he learns his lesson and fix it. We are still very much in the hunt for CL places.

Look at teams who are considered the best in the league. A common aspect of their game is playing with one DM while having a defender convert to a midfielder going forward.

Playing one DM is a crime given the fielded players for us. I am not particularly against the formation, but we need to have the right tools. Arsenal for instance does that. But they have a mature Rice playing there with players like Odegaard tracking back to defend. Then going forward, they convert Zenchenko to a cm to support going forward with ben white moving to cb. It works really well giving them more weight going forward with odegaard and havertz adding to the forward set up.

for us, we have a young player at DM, a very good yet inexperienced young player. This young player is getting zero support when in a position to defend (particularly from mctominay - the fact that i am anyway expecting mctominay to do what odegaard does is nonsense I know, but let’s entertain the concept). Then going forward, i do not think we have a plan. Is shaw converting into the man taking the ball up the pitch? Im honestly confused, not sure of the role (this is not a swipe at shaw, he is our player of the season so far but what is the tactic here?).

then we have this whole issue of our forwards scoring a combined 4 goals between them. That is purely repulsive for players who have cost the club 100s of millions…

 

[r0663664]

I wonder what are they training for? Doesn't the coaches work on passing or cross drilling where Hoijund tries to get to the end of the ball. Serious week in and out, same old shit serve by the same group of players. Players is trying to sabotage the manager and manager trying his best to screw himself. I have never seen such a disjointed team as a fan close to 40 years. It is there is a curse cast on United where it would never be lifted.

 

[Oranges038]

Do you compare all the 20 year old attackers that have scored zero goals in the league with Rooney and Ronaldo? Or just Hojlund?

No, but I remember there were a lot of question marks over whether or not they were good enough to make an impact in Europe because they weren't putting up the same numbers as in the league.

There's not a striker in the world who would be prolific with the amount of service he gets. Part of the reason SAF got rid of Ruud when he did was because he knew that the forward line he was building couldn't accommodate or provide for him in the right way consistently. Hojlund is in the same situation, it looks he's just not the right profile of striker for this setup. Unless something changes that will continue to be the case.

Playing a striker like him, does not work well when your wingers invert and your full backs don't provide any width. He just will not get the space or service to thrive because everything gets forced into the middle and it's too easy to defend against. At 20 he's still not strong enough to hold off defenders and bring others into play in tight areas, question marks over his link up play are there as well. But at 20, he shouldn't really be tasked with being the main man up top in a disjointed team.

That being said when the opportunities to put balls into the box does arrive the wide players and full backs generally pick the wrong option. There have been a few occasions where he's narrowly missed tap ins. Overall the lack of quality service is the main problem.

 

[devilish]

All our previous managers after SAF ended up in this same shithole ie tumescent football, reliance on McT or his older version ie Fellaini and having forwards jogging on the pitch. I am not saying that we shouldn't sack the manager. All I am saying that we should be smart for once and admit that the situation is far more serious than the manager and radical changes are needed from top (ie owners, CEO, DOF, Recruitment) to the very bottom (ie players)

 

[Buster15]

I wonder what are they training for? Doesn't the coaches work on passing or cross drilling where Hoijund tries to get to the end of the ball. Serious week in and out, same old shit serve by the same group of players. Players is trying to sabotage the manager and manager trying his best to screw himself. I have never seen such a disjointed team as a fan close to 40 years. It is there is a curse cast on United where it would never be lifted.

Yes quite agree.
After the last game it is difficult to know where to start. And it seems like the whole nightmare is never ending.
Manager?
Coaching?
Tactics?
Set up?
Players?
In truth it is a bit of everything and much more.

But the same pattern is there, from Moyes, LVG, José, Ole, Rangnick and now Ten Hag.
We watch different managers failing with different players, different expensive players making largely the same mistakes and getting the same results. When I look at other PL teams, especially the good ones, the players are always moving, always looking for the ball, always trying to find space with accurate and decisive passing.

And I very rarely see that in United.

 

[Buster15]

All our previous managers after SAF ended up in this same shithole ie tumescent football, reliance on McT or his older version ie Fellaini and having forwards jogging on the pitch. I am not saying that we shouldn't sack the manager. All I am saying that we should be smart for once and admit that the situation is far more serious than the manager and radical changes are needed from top (ie owners, CEO, DOF, Recruitment) to the very bottom (ie players)

Spot on.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

All our previous managers after SAF ended up in this same shithole ie tumescent football, reliance on McT or his older version ie Fellaini and having forwards jogging on the pitch. I am not saying that we shouldn't sack the manager. All I am saying that we should be smart for once and admit that the situation is far more serious than the manager and radical changes are needed from top (ie owners, CEO, DOF, Recruitment) to the very bottom (ie players)

Could be both ofcourse. Everything from top to bottom has to change but the manager is also not good enough. People want Ten Hag to stay because the structure is at fault, but maybe Ten Hag also isn’t good enough. It is both.

 

[devilish]

Could be both ofcourse. Everything from top to bottom has to change but the manager is also not good enough. People want Ten Hag to stay because the structure is at fault, but maybe Ten Hag also isn’t good enough. It is both.

My stance is clear and simple. Let's get the football structure in place first (Ceo, Sporting Director, head of recruitment etc) and then they decide on ETH's fate. We can't have joel and murtough choosing yet another manager

 

[stefan92]

we've now tried the "up and coming talent" and it's THE SAME DAMN THING. It's always the same. The football never looks any different when it all goes tits up.

EtH wasn't really an "up and coming talent", United is his 5th club and he isn't young either.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Could be both ofcourse. Everything from top to bottom has to change but the manager is also not good enough. People want Ten Hag to stay because the structure is at fault, but maybe Ten Hag also isn’t good enough. It is both.

That's the crux of it. The lot of them are hopeless.

Some people attempt to push the narrative that the CEO and Murtough are to blame for our poor football and clueless tactics. It doesn't wash. Ten Hag is failing miserably at managing this team and must go.

Those above him are failing miserably at building an environment that can seamlessly transition between managers/coaches. They are failing at building a structure that enables us to utilise data and a vast scouting network to build a coherent squad containing players with the right attitudes who compliment each other on the pitch.

This nonsense about every manager requiring several years and vast fortunes to rebuild the team should be a thing of the past. If they aren't almost immediately making progress by improving team and player performances, then they can feck off and we move on to the next one. That's the way of modern football and it's exactly how the successful clubs operate. None of them hang around waffling on about how Arteta or Ferguson were given 4 years

 

[padzilla]

I would say absolutely sack Ten Hag if a new set up isn't being established as he's proven he isn't the solution to our current problems.

But if a new set up is just around the corner then perhaps he deserves the opportunity to show what he can do away from the madness and in an environment conducive to onfield success.

However, that comes with questions too. How long will it take for that set up to start bearing fruit if we are only going to bring in dregs on loan in January?

 

[pocco]

About 2 months ago the ETH fan club were finding every excuse and saying they'll at least give him till Christmas. Well we're now at Christmas, it's as bad as ever, and there's still excuses being trotted out. I swear there's a section of our fan base that would be happy to see us relegated if he could keep his job, just so they could tell us he's the best manager in the Championship!

 

[Rista]

People say that stuff like we’ve been shitter each time we’ve sacked a manager and have conveniently forgotten that we’ve won trophies every time a new manager has come in.

Exactly. We've been shit the last 10 years relative to Fergie years but we've also been successful at times relative to the current shitshow. I don't know how can people say with a straight face things like "our personnel is bottom half at best" when you look at the league finishes in the last few years: 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 3rd. Every time we changed the manager we at least bounced back into fight for more than just top 4. And yet now that we're on course to have the worst season post SAF people don't want the manager out because we've tried that before. Man Utd manager cult is weird.

 

[ColvaleGoa]

I am no tactician, but I fail to understand EtH's obsession with McTominay. I think 25 percent of our problems goes away if he plays Amrabat instead.

Everyone can see ,SMT doesn't bring anything to the party. I think he has given up on the project now just wants the axe to fall. I am all EtH in but am on the ropes supporting the manager when he is making this kind of decisions.

 

[Lay]

About 2 months ago the ETH fan club were finding every excuse and saying they'll at least give him till Christmas. Well we're now at Christmas, it's as bad as ever, and there's still excuses being trotted out. I swear there's a section of our fan base that would be happy to see us relegated if he could keep his job, just so they could tell us he's the best manager in the Championship!

There’s so many excuses that I question if it’s just about not wanting to be proved wrong.

Luton have scored more (I’m counting the abandoned game) than United and didn’t spend £160m on attackers. The football is worse than LVG, the records are getting broken faster than Moyes, it’s the worst start since 1930.

Yes the structure is bad, but the glazers aren’t involved in the tactical set up, you can still set up a team that can score goals.

This is worse than Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and the worst of Ole. The man has the personality of a gold fish and his track record is 3 titles with Ajax. The PSV manager has a 100% record this season, why not give him the job if it’s such an amazing job that ETH did in the Dutch league.

Oh but he had a cup run in the UCL. Roma, Villarreal, Lyon, Leipzig have all done that too and defied the odds in recent years.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

All our previous managers after SAF ended up in this same shithole ie tumescent football, reliance on McT or his older version ie Fellaini and having forwards jogging on the pitch. I am not saying that we shouldn't sack the manager. All I am saying that we should be smart for once and admit that the situation is far more serious than the manager and radical changes are needed from top (ie owners, CEO, DOF, Recruitment) to the very bottom (ie players)

There are two ways, in my opinion, to move forward. Either accept that, for the foreseeable, we are a 3-7 team in the league and work with that. Get a manager like Solskjaer in to keep Rashford, Bruno and the rest of the gang happy by keeping the tactics simple, playing on the counter and turning a blind eye to all sorts of disciplinary misdemeanour. Then, gradually as the contracts run down, try to make the wage bill more manageable. It should also keep the sponsors happy and the current commercial deals intact. Or, as RR suggested, you aim for the jugular because United can't afford the risk of being left in the wilderness. If that's the route you want to follow, you need to understand that your two marquee players need a world of sacrifices and accommodations to perform in a way that makes them happy and most productive. So, if you bring a manager or DoF (or both) in whom you believe in, listen to him/them even if he/they suggest(s) radical changes. The ones they don't like to hear, so they keep reshuffling the deck by giving top-level jobs to the best arse-lickers in their offices.

 

[MrEdge]

Anthony Elanga has now scored more PL goals this season than Rashford, Garnacho, Antony and Højlund together.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Every single time we play half decent team we will shit our bed.

Let's try Steve McLaren as interim. It can't be any worse, at least he knows PL.

 

[VP89]

So if that's the case - what were you arguing here:





You said "objectively it can be argued that any manager would fail in the current structure" - and expounded with - "under the current DoF anyway. I don't think any manager gets a fair shake"

and when I said that's verifiably false as we have had managers that performed better under the same structure - you turned around with an intellectually dishonest take of "no manager did better than cup and top 4" (I'm still cracking up at that) - and now you're saying - "it's not the same structure though is it?"

so, what did you use as the basis of/for your initial assertion(s) then - ???

Here's a re explanation so you'd understand:

Not all managers have done better than ETH at the same point as where he is now. That is false. In fact all of them achieved their peak in season 2ish, which if anything falls below what Ten Hag did in year 1.

It is certainly fair to say that ETHs lowest point is lower than those managers, but that does not mean the tenure overall is worse. You can slice it whatever way you like, but half a bad season isn't worse than 3.5 seasons of winning nothing, having our longest trophy drought in memory and no evolution in playing style.

Finally, when you DO Consider the frailties we had this season, whilst accepting ETH shoulders a lot of blame, you should also recognize he has faced uncertainty above him structurally that the other managers didn't. And he had injuries which were worse too.

I know youl bury your head in the sand and ignore all of that because that's what you're about, but feck it, that's my last reply to nonsense.

 

[Sky1981]

How can a manager be so bad whenever they managed United. They somehow space jammed and even losing their basic tactical nous

 

[Redstain]

How can a manager be so bad whenever they managed United. They somehow space jammed and even losing their basic tactical nous

Because United is a higher level, it will take an outstanding manager (tactically, man management, philosophy) to get the club at a level that's respectable to the clubs pedigree and history. Look at Liverpool, it's taken one of the best managers in Europe to excel. I think some people have deluded themselves into thinking that Erik is of the elite but he is not and had just as much to prove as some of his purchases with this move.

 

[Cassidy]

Because United is a higher level, it will take an outstanding manager (tactically, man management, philosophy) to get the club at a level that's respectable to the clubs pedigree and history. Look at Liverpool, it's taken one of the best managers in Europe to excel. I think some people have deluded themselves into thinking that Erik is of the elite but he is not and had just as much to prove as some of his purchases with this move.

Its not a higher level in reality. Reality is you usually end up working with less talent in the squad and less talent in the club structure and recruitment department. Whilst at the same time being held to a higher standard

 

[Garethw]

My stance is clear and simple. Let's get the football structure in place first (Ceo, Sporting Director, head of recruitment etc) and then they decide on ETH's fate. We can't have joel and murtough choosing yet another manager

That could take months and months though. We’d likely be in the relegation zone by then.

Right now a top 4 finish is still achievable. He needs to be sacked and an interim manager appointed until the boardroom situation is sorted out.

13 bloody defeats before Xmas
He has to go.

 

[Cassidy]

That could take months and months though. We’d likely be in the relegation zone by then.

Right now a top 4 finish is still achievable. He needs to be sacked and an interim manager appointed until the boardroom situation is sorted out.

13 bloody defeats before Xmas
He has to go.

So you are still caught in the trap of short term top 4 chase. Some fans will never learn

 

[Redstain]

Its not a higher level in reality. Reality is you usually end up working with less talent in the squad and less talent in the club structure and recruitment department. Whilst at the same time being held to a higher standard

I see where your coming from but the same could be said for Liverpool they signed Mane / Salah / Jota / Diaz who weren't world beaters at the point of them being acquired but because of the diligence of having an elite manager they go up a level. Good managers extract more from average players it goes without saying. I feel like there's a common struggle amongst fans to severely underrate opposition managers while aggrandising the clubs own. If a manager is expected to only succeed signing Kane, Bellingham and Musiala then it's not realistic.

 

[Pughnichi]

I have some sympathy for ETH and believe that if the following can start regularly and find some form we will see progress

Onana, AWB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo & Mount

this is at least a decent 8.

where I lose sympathy is him starting McT and persisting with Bruno & Rashford (the later not so much recently but it feels like he’s desperate to get him back in) and insisting that Antony is a good RF.

And we’re still waiting for regular patterns of play.

I still believe that the 8 listed above (jury out on Mount but he deserves a chance and at least retains possession) in form and playing regularly will ensure at least some decent football and positive results

 

[TsuWave]

Here's a re explanation so you'd understand:

please don't sidestep - and answer what you were asked. what were you arguing here:

Objectively it can be argued that any manager would fail in the current structure under the current DoF anyway. I don't think any manager gets a fair shake.

You said "objectively it can be argued that any manager would fail in the current structure" - and expounded with - "under the current DoF anyway. I don't think any manager gets a fair shake"

and when I said that's verifiably false as we have had managers that performed better under the same structure - you turned around with an intellectually dishonest take of "no manager did better than cup and top 4" (I'm still cracking up at that) - and now you're saying - "it's not the same structure though is it?"

so, what did you use as the basis of/for your initial assertion(s) then - ???

Not all managers have done better than ETH at the same point as where he is now. That is false. In fact all of them achieved their peak in season 2ish, which if anything falls below what Ten Hag did in year 1.

You're arguing against a point that was never made. You do that often - then go on random non-applicable tangents. It's comical because you said "objectively" and you're unable to be objective. Here, to help you:

This is not correct - we’ve seen managers perform better under this same structure. So that kills that.

"we have seen managers perform better under this same structure" NOT "all managers have done better than ETH at the same point as where he is now"

If you wanted to have a conversation with yourself, you could've done so without quoting posts and then arguing against stuff you've made up.

It is certainly fair to say that ETHs lowest point is lower than those managers, but that does not mean the tenure overall is worse. You can slice it whatever way you like, but half a bad season isn't worse than 3.5 seasons of winning nothing, having our longest trophy drought in memory and no evolution in playing style.

Finally, when you DO Consider the frailties we had this season, whilst accepting ETH shoulders a lot of blame, you should also recognize he has faced uncertainty above him structurally that the other managers didn't. And he had injuries which were worse too.

More non-applicable side-stepping fluff. You're making nonsensical comparisons about "half a bad season isn't worse than 3.5 seasons of"/"x tenure isn't overall worse" - what are you even going on about?

It's a pretty simple, open and easy to understand statement - we've seen managers perform better under the same structure. We have.

This is the second time you imply I'm disregarding or being obtuse regarding the hindrances Ten Hag faced this season - I don't even know where you got that from (more stuff you pulled out of thin-air). I stated clearly that I believe his shortcomings and limitations go beyond "structure". Regarding injuries, all managers/teams/clubs have mitigating factors in that aspect. The job of a manager is to, you know, manage (squad planning/building, use of youth, taking a different approach/set-up - these are things that often help navigate injury crisis). I'm well aware of the circumstances around United and still believe Ten Hag needs to go. What now?

I know youl bury your head in the sand and ignore all of that because that's what you're about, but feck it, that's my last reply to nonsense.

Of course I'll ignore all this babble - as proven above - you're replying to yourself. The foundation of your post was to reply to something you've made up, and not what I said.

 

[VP89]

please don't sidestep - and answer what you were asked. what were you arguing here:

Jesus christ, did you just try to bitch talk me?
I genuinely didn't read your drivel after that because your standard of posting and logic is so far gone that you might as well go back to the newbies.

If you think managers performed better than ten hag after 18 months, name them.

 

[Cassidy]

I see where your coming from but the same could be said for Liverpool they signed Mane / Salah / Jota / Diaz who weren't world beaters at the point of them being acquired but because of the diligence of having an elite manager they go up a level. Good managers extract more from average players it goes without saying. I feel like there's a common struggle amongst fans to severely underrate opposition managers while aggrandising the clubs own. If a manager is expected to only succeed signing Kane, Bellingham and Musiala then it's not realistic.

You basically just named 3 very good players Liverpool signed to make your point? 2 of whom United didnt sign even though the managers at the time wanted the club to sign them?

 

[RedUnited86]

It speaks volumes of this club that this joker is still in employment. Worst start in nearly 100 years. An absolute no hoper.

 

[TsuWave]

Jesus christ, did you just try to bitch talk me?
I genuinely didn't read your drivel after that because your standard of posting and logic is so far gone that you might as well go back to the newbies. Don't quote me again.

You quoted me

And I asked you to stay on track because you quote people and don't reply to what they said - you reply to stuff you've made up in your head. Example:

What I said - "we have seen managers perform better under this same structure"
What you replied to - "all managers have done better than ETH at the same point as where he is now"

You've been talking to yourself all this time. I'm not the one with posting and logic that's far gone