At least, it will resemble the reality.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Fans are so blind or don't get it. Fergie was already a serial winner who turned a smallish club into Scottish champions (when Scottish football was decent) and won a major European trophy before coming to OT. That earnt him lots of credit, as well as work he was doing on youth side. Klopp earnt time with his consistent achievements at Dortmund, two league wins and 2 runners up, and clarity on what he was doing and direction they were going. ETH is or has none of these attributes. The average fan stuck with Ole far too long, we should have laughed Moyes out of OT, and Mou for that matter.
Have no idea how any Utd fan can support ETH at this point. Seriously, loyatly to a failed manager hinders the club. The players signed are on him, the club gave him complete control. Antony for £50m is still a bang average player. Sure he couldnt sign in the last winter window, but he wasted the first summer chasing FDJ and then panic splurge on Antony. Lots of internal leaks blame ETH for injuries for not rotating last season, so I dont think we are 'unlucky'. its all on him.
Even without this, you seen any sense on a football pitch of a team you recognise as Manchester f@@@ing United. Because I dont.
Why do our fanbase say this kind of stuff? No chance he walks. He's getting paid a huge amount to do a job most people would love to do - the board either sack him or back him.
Unfair to say that. He won 3 leagues at Ajax, 4th if you include the covid year that was cut short. Plus a good first season at United with a trophy.
Given the state of the current meltdown on here do you honestly think that would be seen as acceptable regardless of who is in charge or what the long term plan is?
Ajax are a giant in a second rate league. Its not comparable to Germany or Spain, even France. I didn't see much of Ajax but in season before he joined I saw 2-3 games and they looked very ordinary.
He won a trophy that pretty much all other top teams play their reserves/ youth in. I am not saying he is a bad manager, just not up to the job of MUFC. Not many are, but we shouldn't desperately cling onto whoever is in the dugout when they have so clearly failed. What we are seeing is shambolic. Its not all on him, but nor can he turn it around. I really dont care about results but the football is just terrible.
That's being extremely generous. It was an ok season, but not good.
Essentially, we didn't play that good football, we didn't compete for the league, we didn't compete in Europa, and we got some of the biggest trashing including a 7-0 defeat against Liverpool. We got 1 out of possible 27 points against the top half of the table away from home.
It was a better season than the one before that, but all things considered, it really wasn't good.
This guy is taking the p@ss. What plan? That's the whole point, there is isn't one. Even ETH seems to have admitted that. We are not playing Ajax football, whatever that is, no its basically just sh*te. McT for sale now he's first on the team sheat. Single pviot that leaves us wide open since start of season. No goals. Meltdown or people genuinely had enough at the state of our great club...?
I am pro ETH and always have been.
But he seems to be out of ideas and has now reverted to using McTom as Jose used Fellaini.
Its the most basic of tactics and ETH was not brought in to do these type of things.
But he seems to be out of ideas and has now reverted to using McTom as Jose used Fellaini.
Its the most basic of tactics and ETH was not brought in to do these type of things.
I don't get how are fans become pro or anti. I am pro MUFC, always have been. I have seen some awful stuff over the years. ETH seemed like a sensible appointment, at least compared to some of the awful ones, though slight concern that even Spurs rejected him and he was untested outside Holland. Ajax fans said he wasn't great on youth and only wanted to buy players he knew, guess they were correct there. He may have done better in a proper football structure, but he just doesnt seem to have the tactical insight or flexibility to manage a big team. Other than being a loyal fan, what exactly makes you pro ETH? His judgement on players like Antony is so wrong it makes me question his fundamental grip of top level football.
I agree, the Dutch league is not top tier, but there is as much competition in the Dutch league as there is in Spain and Germany, which are duopolies and in France PSG have everyone outgunned.
At least Ajax have strong and equally resourced Feyenoord and PSV to compete with.
Think it unfair to say he didn't have the pedigree. You said yourself "he would be great" in 2021.....
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...eds-to-finish-the-season.466478/post-27971981
I mean you can disprove it by just looking at the PL table...This can’t be true… can it?
It's another weird thing Ten Hag supporters come up with as they try and ignore the fact Ole was actually doing better with this team than Ten Hag has managed.
Forget about the points, Arsenal were mostly crap under Arteta until things started to click for them. The upturn in their performances (judging by the underlying stats) last season was so significant, it raised more than a few eyebrows. They had no strengths, as you like to call them and, results wise, their trajectory was similar to United's under ETH: Very few draws and uneven games that could go either way, poor goal differences caused by a constipated and unimaginative attacking line alongside a shaky defence that couldn't deal with counters and seemed to melt under pressure in crunch moments. In the opening game of his second full season, Carragher was laughing at them on live TV when they conceded their second goal at Brentford. After that, they lost hands down at home to Chelsea and got their arses handed over to them at the Etihad (5-0). A few weeks later, Liverpool also wiped the floor with them (4-0). If Arteta was managing United, the Caf would be demanding his head on a plate by then, and the toxicity in and around the club would have eaten him alive.
The difference is in the way he was failing. He didn't sacrifice what he was brought in to implement to get immediate results. He stood his ground, instead, and took the hits:" This is how we're going to play, this is what we'll be doing in the different tactical phases, and i don't care if the players like it or not. Why? Because, as a system manager, this is what i know how to teach best". The only thing that kept him in his job was the belief of the people who hired him in his abilities. They allowed him to close his ears to the outside noise and focus on the task ahead. And they also provided him a structure to help him. He found roles for Martinelli and Saliba from the fresh transfers he inherited during his interim spell. Next season, he added Partey and Gabriel. The season after that, it was Ramsdale, Odegaard, White and Tomiyasu. Then, Jesus and Zinchenko from City, plus Trossard and Jorginho. If you add Rice, that's a whole new starting xi, except for Saka. That's for the "work and make the best out of what you have" crowd, who also want to "see" and "taste" the progress, otherwise it's… Off with his head.
United don't have the same MO. Yes, the managers get the money to spend. After LvG's failed overhaul, they also get three major signings and a clear objective to secure CL football. Which means that, one way or the other, they have to work with what they've got instead of implementing any kind of vision. Mourinho tried to do it, saw that he couldn't compete with Klopp/Pep, so he tossed a grenade and left the club in tatters. Solskjaer came in with dreams of implementing a high pressing/high energy game, then he toed the line and, to his credit, he squeezed whatever he could out of the team until he arrived at a dead-end. ETH comes in, changes his tune after two games to "save" the season. The biggest crime he committed (i think the only transfer there's enough sample size to safely suggest that he doesn't belong at this level is Antony) was that he actually thought he could have a second bite at the cherry this season. His second-biggest crime (with the selection of McT, Maguire leading the way) is that he's trying to find ways to mix what worked last season with the new approach. Which is an unmitigated disaster. He's arrived at his own dead-end, and he will get the sack. But the talk has never about progress. The club has far more mundane and immediate needs that must be served. And most of the loudest fans on here, one way or the other, share that point of view. Leave Klopp/Pep aside, they belong to a different stratosphere. The problem is that, at United, Arteta's 22-23 season would probably have never happened. Last chance saloon is someone like Ancelotti but, then again, he will also be a stop-gap solution.
I think he underestimated the quality of the Premier League when he signed Antony. He perhaps didn't account for the step up in quality of defenses in comparison to Holland. Or thought Anthony could improve, which we are yet to see.
You are right though, you have to question his top level ability when he makes so many poor signings. Hojland looks to be another.
That's why last season was distorted. Because fans used the 21/22 season as benchmark, where we gave up on the season mid way through.
As you said it was an ok season, any criticism on the style was countered by using McT, Maguire and DDG as excuses.
Unfortunately, it is true. To some degree cause teams who lose lots of matches in the league, do not play in Europe (where we lost 4 matches).This can’t be true… can it?
Either way, it is a terrible statistic. Almost as bad as the one where we not only were the club that conceded most goals in UCL this season, but we were the English club to have conceded most goals in the group stage of UCL, ever.
For me, such a strange one. I still like ETH a lot - but I am now leaning to letting him go, even if it's only to bring an interim in. From the outside looking in, I just can't see how we finish the season any higher than 8th or 9th with ETH in charge. We're losing games that we simply shouldn't. Away to Newcastle? Fine - even if it was an embarrassing performance. Away to any of the top 5 or 6? Okay, maybe. Home defeats to Palace, Bournemouth, Brighton? No. Out of Europe entirely by December? Unacceptable.
This combined with a lack of any identifiable playing style or consistency means he has to go, I'm sorry to say. I think we'll lose the next 3 and he'll be gone.
This combined with a lack of any identifiable playing style or consistency means he has to go, I'm sorry to say. I think we'll lose the next 3 and he'll be gone.
That paragraph was taken directly from this article:
https://theathletic.com/5130891/202...-ten-hag-analysis/?source=user_shared_article
It is the second paragraph, in fact
The game on Sunday will be the easiest way to prove whether he has any credit left in the squad at all.
All the usual problem characters will be absent. Rashford, Bruno, Martial etc. Everyone he picks will either be players he's backed/signed (Onana, Dalot, Amrabat, Evans, McT, Antony and Hojlund) or youth players he's given chances to (Garnacho, Mainoo, maybe Hannibal).
The result is one thing, but if he cant get that group of players fired up enough to even show any fight at Anfield, then we know categorically he has nothing left to offer us.
All the usual problem characters will be absent. Rashford, Bruno, Martial etc. Everyone he picks will either be players he's backed/signed (Onana, Dalot, Amrabat, Evans, McT, Antony and Hojlund) or youth players he's given chances to (Garnacho, Mainoo, maybe Hannibal).
The result is one thing, but if he cant get that group of players fired up enough to even show any fight at Anfield, then we know categorically he has nothing left to offer us.
Oh I realise what they've done now. As obviously the relegation fodder teams have not played the extra 6 games - therefore they have to get that stat in quick. Poor Union are just like us.
The players can be fired up, but still have no where near enough quality to compete with Liverpool.
Look at the players we have to take to Anfield. Not one would get near the starting Liverpool XI.
As much as I am not a fan of what Ten Hag has been doing of late, judging him on the performance of a weak XI at Anfield is a little unfair.
Getting thumped by Bournemouth is much more of an issue.
Some belters now in the battle for most ridiculous and we've only just started.
One of you is going to make it more personal than it needs to be but which of you want's to achieve legendary status in doing so.
Huge excitement
One of you is going to make it more personal than it needs to be but which of you want's to achieve legendary status in doing so.
Huge excitement
Not unreasonable.
He looks like an utterly mediocre player who may be capable of carrying out instructions - but who has nothing about him in terms of the qualities you want to see in a genuine top player (which is what you should get at that price).
Great point
Not many people know this or just don't want to admit. SAF was a serial winner and had sky high standards everywhere he went.
Success breeds success. You don't bet on a lame horse and expect them to consistently win the race.
Sorry, I can't take you serious if you start with calling an actual fact clutching..
The injuries excuse is kinda crazy in light of reports that he is rejecting player requests to turn down the intensity of training a notch.
I can't take you serious if you start with
Even worse now as well. 13 out against Liverpool by the looks of things.
None of them important players of course.
But for those of us not relentlessly waffling shite, let's just think about that for a minute, 13 players out and squad sizes are 25. Under 21s help compensate for it a bit but the numbers are ridiculous.
I think it’s an absurd choice to introduce a system predicated on high intensity pressing actions to a team that was coming off of a 65 plus game season along with the World Cup.
It's the meltdown of fans, who probably have no idea whats going on inside the club or what the plan is. We had the same arguments and meltdowns with Moyes, LVG, Ole, Jose and now ETH. Going nowhere, style, signings, results, players etc etc etc..
Just sacking ETH now and going back to an interim for 6 months makes sense? Rubbish players out of contract in the summer, they'll be signed back on for another manager. Why? Well because of FFP, lack of time to find and sign replacements, unsure of the market. The usual shite and the next guy will be lumbered with dross like Martial, AWB, Lindelof etc for another 3 years.
Nothing will change unless everything changes, change the manager, the structure, the players. Burn it all down and start again. Only then will you see Man Utd on the up.
ETH is just like LVG all over again. Rubbish outside of Holland, signing are shite, changes his formation, doesn't change his formation, injuries, should have got more out of players at the club..should have bought a striker etc etc etc.. the arguments and meltdowns are almost identical.
For reference the LVG stuff, sound familiar?
I know right, so many. It's almost like the manager royally cocked up their preseason conditioning/early season workloads.
I was vehemently ten Hag in well before he got here and was very much on board with most things in the first season, but honestly, I don't think I've seen a manager sabotage himself like this before.That description is grim but I can't find any lies or even exaggerations.
From the moment the next phase began, it's been akin to accelerating into a wall and he's made bad decisions on top of bad to even exacerbate that. He's really shredded confidence with each turn and I don't know what possible positive or constructive thing you can say he's done whilst his negative column has enough against him to fill an A4 page.
More damning than that is if/when he goes, we're left with all those dud signings on massive wages that nobody will touch. For as long as this could go on for (INEOS), he might be fairly labelled our worst post-Fergie manager outright, which is unfathomable from the end of the '22/'23 campaign when all signs pointed upward.
This isn't a dig against this post in particular, but more the constant use of the 400m (360m but fine) as a if it bought ETH a whole squad of his choices to use. It didn't. Because we're Manchester United and our signing department is the worst in the world, all it bought was Onana, Malacia, Mount, Antony, Hojland, Martinez, Bayindir, Eriksen and Casemiro as full transfers. This season, we've basically not seen half of his transfers (Mount, Malacia, Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen).
Both Pep and Arteta, after two full summer windows has brought in upwards of a dozen new players.
Given the history well before ETH, United's inability to churn through a squad is what is killing us. ETH is forced to use players we should have sold years ago. Martial is a starter for us, because the only other forward the club were able to get is a kid who has never played a full season in a major league. That's pathetic. We've spent half a season without a fit LB. We desperately need numbers.
Maybe ETH could have forced the recruitment team to buy 2 lesser-known players rather than spend a fortune on Mount, I'm not sure. His first summer was a disaster not because of him. The club basically had to see us get absolutely destroyed in the first two matches, then panicked and overpaid on both Casemiro and Antony. Realistically, the 400m should be 300m just on the over-paying our ineptitude cost on those two transfers alone.
Of the players he clearly wanted, I'd say Antony and Onana are looking like poor decisions. Malacia was fine. Hojland is a good striker, but we overpaid (again not ETH). Martinez is obviously a good buy. He didn't want Casemiro, and I've no idea about Mount because we've broken him and he can't play football anymore.
Anyway, I think the recruitment issue is more around the clubs overspending and inability to get many deals done. We can't spend 360m and then desperately hope for random loan signings on the lats day of each window to flesh out the squad.
There is no funds because that same manager wasted it on dross. We've spent pretty much more than any other club during that period, the funds excuse is very thin. Do you really think almost every other manager doesn't face all those exact same issues? Inheriting unbalanced squads who have overseen the sacking of multiple managers. It is absolutely the norm. The only difference is that 99.99% of them do get to spend 400 million.
Extremely. Yet here some here who will have us believe they expected us to lay a glove on a full strength Bayern trying to make their fans not give up on them. With the number of those out and our shit form.
Honestly anyone who found yesterday as their "tipping point" for wanting ETH gone is far from serious. Hands down the nadir of the season has been a nil 3 climb down vs Bournemouth after the Chelsea performance. Even those like me who still have faith in him, have all but given up on him staying in the job beyond the next 3 games after that. (1 down, 2 to go)
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