Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Alex99]

Since when has coaching players to improve as individuals and creating a team that becomes more than the sum of its parts been a “myth”. That seems more like the very essence of being a good Manager to me.

Klopp and Pep have coached countless players to become better versions of themselves and in doing so moulded teams in cohesive units that win major trophies. They bought players, yes. All Managers do.

Eddie Howe has Newcastle a point behind United with an even worse injury list. That’s with Joelinton and Longstaff both on 13 appearances and Almiron playing literally every game.

By all means, back your Manager. But let’s change the definition of Manager to do so.

So essentially, All our players are shite, Eth cannot improve them, but if we do see an improvement in some of them, the manager gets the credit while if other players regress or don't improve , its on the players because they are shite.

@Daydreamer posted almost the exact response I wanted to say. What is the point of manager if they cannot improve the players.

Yes, our squad may not be the highest quality to be competing with City, but if you are saying that Eth needed a whole new squad of his own players to win against bottom half teams, then its ridiculous.

Even if I agree that the squad is "uncoachable", then how do you expect Eth to fix it, given that he cannot identify the kind of players he needs?.

That's not what I said, is it? I'm not arguing that we shouldn't be expected to do better, or that Ten Hag (or any manager) necessarily needs an entirely new squad to turn things around.

The coaching thing is always invariably brought up with the idea that other managers have turned shite into gold. They haven't. At best, they turn shite players into slightly less shite players, average players into slightly better than average players, and can find a use for some of them in a squad capacity, which is something Ten Hag has managed here, even if you all want to ignore it.

I've already listed the players Klopp had to ditch before he was able to win anything. I'll also point out that it took a new goalkeeper (who was briefly the most expensive ever, before Chelsea went mad with Kepa), an entire new back-line (one of which was another record breaking fee), most of a new midfield, and most of new front line, for Klopp to best a fourth place finish, and despite being in the job since 2015, has found his title-winning team relying on last minute goals from his goalkeeper to qualify for the Champions League, and has even missed out on it completely.

Perhaps we should heavily critique his ability to identify the kinds of players he needs or his ability to coach them too? After all, he finished behind such inept managers as Solskjaer and Ten Hag in those seasons I mentioned, from a far stronger platform than either of those two.

As for City, 21 players made 10 or more appearances for them the season before Guardiola took over. He'd shifted 12 of them by the start of his second season. Unless we're praising him for making use of De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Sterling, Otamendi, Aguero, Kompany and Silva, we're looking at Yaya Toure and Fabian Delph. He famously fell out with Toure, and Delph was only ever a squad player.

It's very debatable that Howe's injury list is worse, but even so, that doesn't disprove my point. Newcastle lost five games in the league all season last time out. They've already lost six this season. If Howe had improved those players to anything like the levels it's made out he has, why are Newcastle getting pumped by Brighton, Bournemouth, Everton and and an injury hit Spurs side, that had lost four from their last five, as soon as they're not surrounded by £400 million of new signings?

I've said it many times now. There's plenty of things to criticise Ten Hag for without making shit up.

 

[Oranges038]

Also for fecking off Ronaldo plus some excellent interviews. There was also the video from preseason of him laying out training cones. Holistic manager.

Holistic?

I can only imagine the uproar if Utd were 12th and he was talking about lemons eating up negative energy and rating players on their aura and all that guff.

 

[astracrazy]

The faith is based on a decent run in the CL with Ajax 4 years ago (before blowing a 3 goal lead to an average Spurs side)

I.e you don't know anything about EtH prior to him joining us.

 

[Leftback99]

I.e you don't know anything about EtH prior to him joining us.

What makes you so sure of him then?

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

What makes you so sure of him then?

Im not as unsure of ETH as I am sure about how poorly the club is being run that’s hamstringing every manager and player who joins.

11 years of abject failure from the Glazers and SJR taking over the football side, categorically proves that beyond a doubt.

I would have preferred a Ragnick chaos season of rebuild and tearing down the wastage but that just doesn’t happen so we got in my view a very good manager in for the purge.

As always with the glazers, they do things half arsed and they didn’t really make any meaningful changes. Woodward is only gone cause of the super league. Arnold was no more qualified then Woodward to do the job (although he did try new things and look somewhat more competent).

It really is no coincidence that top clubs have people at the top whose goal is to win, not to market sh*t. It’s also clear, like at Chelsea, that when you have clueless people making all kinds of stupid signings (and getting poor value), it leaves the squad in bits that makes the job harder for a manager.

For all the talk about how poor we have been, when you look at all the other stuff going on, it’s not that hard to consider that there’s actually good reason why things are so bad. I could write a list of things that help explain why things are so bad but none of it matters to those who act like coaching the team should cure all ills.

The club might aswell be on fire and some fans think that the team should be able to train and play as everybody else.

I feel we don’t really know if ETH will succeed because we prob won’t get to see what he could do in a United that isn’t a horrendous mess.

 

[CannibalSpectre]

This thing about improving players has to die. Barely any managers come into a club and turn average players into good players, let alone coaches trying to dramatically shift the style of football and under the pressure United managers have to consistently win matches.

Klopp didn't achieve anything until he was able to reliably move on from garbage/average players like Agger, Sakho, Moreno, Clyne, Lucas, Can, Lallana and Benteke.

Howe's Newcastle shit the bed in almost any game they have to rely on the likes of Joelinton, Almiron and Longstaff to be the main men.

Even Guardiola quickly moved on a fair chunk of the players he inherited at City, a squad that was literally being assembled with him in mind.

I'd also argue that we have seen improvements from some players. Wan-Bissaka and Dalot have both looked far better for Ten Hag than they have for previous managers. The issue is that they're shit. Fred (at times) last season and McTominay this season have looked more competent than they have before, but they're both ultimately not very good midfielders. Harry Maguire has literally come back from the dead this season, and Lindelof has looked nowhere near as calamitous as he had previously.

Newcastle beat Chelsea 4-1 with those players, held PSG 1-1 and beat us 1-0. Joelington and Almiron have even scored during this run. They've been run to the ground. You couldn't have picked a worse example. Newcastle do not have the same quality of depth that we have

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The coaching thing is always invariably brought up with the idea that other managers have turned shite into gold. They haven't. At best, they turn shite players into slightly less shite players, average players into slightly better than average players, and can find a use for some of them in a squad capacity, which is something Ten Hag has managed here, even if you all want to ignore it.

I've already listed the players Klopp had to ditch before he was able to win anything. I'll also point out that it took a new goalkeeper (who was briefly the most expensive ever, before Chelsea went mad with Kepa), an entire new back-line (one of which was another record breaking fee), most of a new midfield, and most of new front line, for Klopp to best a fourth place finish, and despite being in the job since 2015, has found his title-winning team relying on last minute goals from his goalkeeper to qualify for the Champions League, and has even missed out on it completely.

Perhaps we should heavily critique his ability to identify the kinds of players he needs or his ability to coach them too? After all, he finished behind such inept managers as Solskjaer and Ten Hag in those seasons I mentioned, from a far stronger platform than either of those two.

A variation on this kind of argument was made in a previous thread ("reminder on Liverpool, Arsenal, City's ascent"). The problem with this argument is the way it ignores Liverpool reaching the CL final in 2018.

The team that played the CL final was: Karius, Alexander-Arnold, Lovren, van Dijk, Robertson, Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mane, Salah, and Firmino. Klopp did not sign Lovren, Milner, Henderson, or Firmino, and Alexander-Arnold was a recently-promoted youth player. van Dijk was only signed in January of that season. On the other hand, Coutinho, an important player for Liverpool, was sold that same January.

Did Klopp need 'the briefly most expensive goalkeeper', 'an entire new back line', 'most of a new midfield', etc. to win a title? Yes. But he didn't need that to take his team to the CL final. That is what people mean when they talk about managers getting the most out of what they have, making players better, etc.

This was not a fluke cup thing, Liverpool played the CL final next season too.

 

[frostbite]

The coaching thing is always invariably brought up with the idea that other managers have turned shite into gold. They haven't. At best, they turn shite players into slightly less shite players, average players into slightly better than average players, and can find a use for some of them in a squad capacity, which is something Ten Hag has managed here, even if you all want to ignore it.

Ten Hag achieved that here with whom exactly? Antony? Onana? Bruno? Rashford? Shaw? Who exactly has improved from their previous manager or team, even "slightly" as you say?

 

[Turnip]

Nonsense that the manager is irrelevant
The people above ETH aren’t picking martial, he is

And who has kept Martial at the club as one of our 2 strikers to choose from for the last 7 years? It's him, Rashford (who's been shit all season) or Hojlund (who hasn't scored a single league goal yet). Not saying Martial is the right choice of the 3, but our striker situation has been shit for years before ETH came along. So like I say, there has to be a long term plan in place between managers if you're going to keep changing them

 

[Alex99]

Ten Hag achieved that here with whom exactly? Antony? Onana? Bruno? Rashford? Shaw? Who exactly has improved from their previous manager or team, even "slightly" as you say?

Read the other posts where I've named them.

 

[Lee565]

Hypothetically for those that still want eth as manager, if we get mount, martinez, eriksen and casimero all back and things stay the same over a month, would that make you change your mind on him.

For the record I do want him to turn it around as I don't want to see another season being a write off but it isn't looking like it will happen

 

[Denis79]

It's obvious ETH is not for the big leagues. Just his transfers tells it all.

 

[roseguy64]

I don’t really know what people are seeing in ETH to have so much faith in him.

The good thing is that he's clearly getting the players to play how he wants.

The bad thing is that it's suicidal and won't work unless the front players score which they're not.

 

[OrcaFat]

Hypothetically for those that still want eth as manager, if we get mount, martinez, eriksen and casimero all back and things stay the same over a month, would that make you change your mind on him.

For the record I do want him to turn it around as I don't want to see another season being a write off but it isn't looking like it will happen

Getting those players back would help, if they play as well as they are able to. I am as annoyed as the next person about how shit we have been most of the time. I just think it is not as simple as blaming the manager.

EtH seems to make some very strange decisions that I don’t agree with but I do like his ethos and I like the type of players he is recruiting. They are not playing as well as we need them to but I like the profile of them. I think he’s misjudged the adaptability of the players in the squad and that’s where the problems are.

My patience is wearing pretty thin and there will come a point where I’ve had enough. However, when we do sack him, I won’t have any expectation of improvement because I’ve been paying attention for the last ten years.

 

[OrcaFat]

The good thing is that he's clearly getting the players to play how he wants.

The bad thing is that it's suicidal and won't work unless the front players score which they're not.

They aren’t playing how he wants at all. They aren’t getting into the right positions, especially when we lose the ball. It does look suicidal and, yes, if the players don’t do it right, we get killed. It’s a high risk strategy because it’s quite likely that our players get it wrong (because some of them are a bit shit).

 

[Cassidy]

Hypothetically for those that still want eth as manager, if we get mount, martinez, eriksen and casimero all back and things stay the same over a month, would that make you change your mind on him.

For the record I do want him to turn it around as I don't want to see another season being a write off but it isn't looking like it will happen

No, although I do think Martinez is a major factor by the way, both in our rest defence and our build-up. I'd like to see ETH with Martinez and new CB and I'd also like to see a new defensive midfielder, not a loan player like Amrabat.

I'm not going to cry if ETH gets the sack but I think some fans genuinely are not remembering some of the football we played last season and are acting as if you should only expect linear progression.
Our attack was not good enough last season and Hojlund alone was not going to change that, in the defence and build up it was very apparent Martinez was a key player and missing him all season has obvioulsy also not helped.

ETH himself is also making mistakes, but I don't think any manager is going to come in and not make mistakes

 

[USREDEVIL]

I don't have time for this but i've been wondering how many players from other teams are better than ours in each position (caveat --- currently). Not that we have to have the best players all the time, but i bet the results would be a bit alarming. Aint too many players better than Shaw and Bruno, but after that...

 

[Cassidy]

I don't have time for this but i've been wondering how many players from other teams are better than ours in each position. Not that we have to have the best players all the time, but i bet the results would be a bit alarming. Aint too many players better than Shaw and Bruno, but after that...

I think there are definitely players better than both of them.
The only player in the team I think I wouldn't swap at the moment is Martinez (minus the young lads Garnacho, Mainoo etc)|

 

[Teja]

I don't have time for this but i've been wondering how many players from other teams are better than ours in each position (caveat --- currently). Not that we have to have the best players all the time, but i bet the results would be a bit alarming. Aint too many players better than Shaw and Bruno, but after that...

Our attack is absolute shambles compared to anyone else in the top 6. I'd rather have Mitoma, Ferguson, March and co than Rashford, Antony, Hojlund, Martial.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I think there are definitely players better than both of them.
The only player in the team I think I wouldn't swap at the moment is Martinez (minus the young lads Garnacho, Mainoo etc)|

Hey now i said the caveat was currently. Martinez is on the mend. I'm mostly looking at why our current form is so erratic. Yeah you can say there's a couple players better than Bruno and Shaw but not many. But in other positions i think we could line up half the prem.

 

[Cassidy]

Hey now i said the caveat was currently. Martinez is on the mend. I'm mostly looking at why our current form is so erratic. Yeah you can say there's a couple players better than Bruno and Shaw but not many. But in other positions i think we could line up half the prem.

If you seriously watch us and don't see how Bruno is a major issue for our ability to control a game of football then I don't know what to say.

 

[Waynne]

"They need to sort out from top to bottom"

Yet people still calling for ETH to be sacked. He's not the source of the issues at this club.

 

[USREDEVIL]

If you seriously watch us and don't see how Bruno is a major issue for our ability to control a game of football then I don't know what to say.

He has issues but he's one of our better players.

 

[FrantikChicken]

"They need to sort out from top to bottom"

Yet people still calling for ETH to be sacked. He's not the source of the issues at this club.

Doesn’t mean he’s any good either though does it?

If everyone above him is incompetent, they also made the incompetent decision to hire him

 

[DRJosh]

Hypothetically for those that still want eth as manager, if we get mount, martinez, eriksen and casimero all back and things stay the same over a month, would that make you change your mind on him.

For the record I do want him to turn it around as I don't want to see another season being a write off but it isn't looking like it will happen

Agreed. And for me there is an obvious sign of stubbornness on his part to impose his style even when the evidence suggests that the players we have aren't naturally inclined to play that way. That lack of flexibility is very worrying. Time and time again we've played out from the back and failed. How many times is too many?

 

[Berbaclass]

Doesn’t mean he’s any good either though does it?

If everyone above him is incompetent, they also made the incompetent decision to hire him

How are we supposed to realistically tell if everything around him is rotten?

Personally I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt until the mess is cleared up. If then he proves to be a poor manager then fair enough.

 

[Waynne]

Doesn’t mean he’s any good either though does it?

If everyone above him is incompetent, they also made the incompetent decision to hire him

He may not be good enough I agree but getting rid of him and keeping the disfunctional upper structure in the club is not going to solve our issues.

For real change to occur we need to start the purge at the top. If ETH is not deemed good enough, they'll get rid of him and find someone who is. I don't see this club going anywhere under the current ownership. Not a fecking chance we get back to anything resembling a Fergie era United.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

It’s the hope that kills.

3-0 loss to Bayern
2-0 loss to Liverpool

We’ll have a go first 20 va both concede on the break and then get outclassed completely.
At least a goal from each game will be Onanas fault.

 

[always_hoping]

Its a pity the home of last season wasn't brought into this season as United right now would be in the top 4,already into the knockout stages of the CL and probably still in the league cup.

 

[Loon]

I hope the day comes quickly when he can sit down with Blanc and whoever else Ratcliffe brings in and they sort this mess out. He needs to tell them what his exact intentions are and if they’re convinced they need to help him as he obviously cannot do it all by himself, that includes binning off the dross (even some of his own purchases)

I’m assuming that the data and all the studies of various players will be available and it will not take long to get the recruitment department up and running.

 

[El Jefe]

He just seems quite dim tactically in the context of the PL.

There hasn’t been a manager post SAF that has tried things that I was absolutely certain wouldn’t work more than Ten Hag and we had LVG coach us. A lot of them put faith in players we might not have liked or played in a style we didn’t enjoy but for the most part I understood what they were trying to achieve.

In the case of EtH, he has a bad system and players ill-suited to playing it, it’s astonishing how off the mark he is. His midfield setup this season might be the worst thing I’ve seen and it was obvious as early as the first game of the season where Wolves looked like they had three Yaya Toure’s just running through our lone midfield of Casemiro. Fast forward nearly four months later away at Newcastle and Mainoo is in the same position.

LVG had a team that had a really great structure and could recycle possession he was just awful at integrating the players who could bring magic to the system.

Jose had a physical, tall and powerful team which could defend and grind out wins. His failure in my opinion was his marquee signings in Lukaku, Pogba and Sanchez weren’t good enough to compete with their counterparts at City and Liverpool

Ole created a team with fast transitions and multiple scoring options. He played the simplest football but was effective for the most part but was really bad once his plan A was nullified which birthed the term moments FC as that’s all we had to rely on and made for bad football.

What are the positives for EtH from a footballing point of view? He beats the teams he should beat but other than that his team has none of the strengths to the same level as his predecessors and all of the flaws they have.

 

[Roboc7]

How are we supposed to realistically tell if everything around him is rotten?

Personally I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt until the mess is cleared up. If then he proves to be a poor manager then fair enough.

The mess will take a long time to clear up, there’s no way ETH can survive that if he doesn’t improve very quickly.

You can’t start a rebuild/restructure with someone who will have been at the club for two years in the summer and is on the verge of the sack. ETH has a lot to deal with but the way he consistently sets us up to play against any decent team is pretty inept and he seems utterly clueless

 

[Berbaclass]

The mess will take a long time to clear up, there’s no way ETH can survive that if he doesn’t improve very quickly.

You can’t start a rebuild/restructure with someone who will have been at the club for two years in the summer and is on the verge of the sack. ETH has a lot to deal with but the way he consistently sets us up to play against any decent team is pretty inept and he seems utterly clueless

Of course, he will most likely become collateral damage unless there is a drastic upturn in results. I'm sure he will be aware of that too.

Thats why I almost don't understand why he's not being more brave with his decisions.

 

[DJW]

He just seems quite dim tactically in the context of the PL.

There hasn’t been a manager post SAF that has tried things that I was absolutely certain wouldn’t work more than Ten Hag and we had LVG coach us. A lot of them put faith in players we might not have liked or played in a style we didn’t enjoy but for the most part I understood what they were trying to achieve.

In the case of EtH, he has a bad system and players ill-suited to playing it, it’s astonishing how off the mark he is. His midfield setup this season might be the worst thing I’ve seen and it was obvious as early as the first game of the season where Wolves looked like they had three Yaya Toure’s just running through our lone midfield of Casemiro. Fast forward nearly four months later away at Newcastle and Mainoo is in the same position.

LVG had a team that had a really great structure and could recycle possession he was just awful at integrating the players who could bring magic to the system.

Jose had a physical, tall and powerful team which could defend and grind out wins. His failure in my opinion was his marquee signings in Lukaku, Pogba and Sanchez weren’t good enough to compete with their counterparts at City and Liverpool

Ole created a team with fast transitions and multiple scoring options. He played the simplest football but was effective for the most part but was really bad once his plan A was nullified which birthed the term moments FC as that’s all we had to rely on and made for bad football.

What are the positives for EtH from a footballing point of view? He beats the teams he should beat but other than that his team has none of the strengths to the same level as his predecessors and all of the flaws they have.

Great read… it’s a funny metric to look back at, can we combine them all minus Ten Hag to make the perfect manager ?!
He doesn’t even beat the teams we should beat sadly… I’m lost at to how he can repeat the same mistakes over and over. It’s looking inevitable that he goes, anything bar a massive 4/5 wins in a row including going to Anfield then he might survive.

 

[Red Comet]

They aren’t playing how he wants at all. They aren’t getting into the right positions, especially when we lose the ball. It does look suicidal and, yes, if the players don’t do it right, we get killed. It’s a high risk strategy because it’s quite likely that our players get it wrong (because some of them are a bit shit).

The thing is, if the players keep getting into wrong positions after a full season of playing and training, and if ETH keeps using these very same players who keep getting things wrong, it's more reflective of ETH's ability as a manager.

 

[Red Comet]

I don’t really know what people are seeing in ETH to have so much faith in him.

1. He had a very good track record with Ajax. Emphasis on the very - roughly 75% win rate, his team scoring around 2.5 goals per game whilst conceding less than 1. Yes it's the Eredivisie, but he is also the first manager to get Ajax to UCL semi-finals since LvG did it back in 96/96 season. And it was not like his Ajax team lucked out by getting weaker oppositions; his Ajax faced off the likes of Real Madrid, Liverpool and Juventus and still his team managed to get 10 wins, 5 draws and 1 loss away.
2. There were times last year, especially post WC, where things look like they are coming together. Despite the debacle by Liverpool.
3.We have had so many managers over the last decade, from Moyes to "master tactician" LvG, to "serial winner" Mourinho, to "feel good old-boy" OGS, and now ETH, and it's the same. The problems seems systemic; we are unable to shift on players whom we no longer want, and we have problem getting in players that fit the vision of the manager.

In short, we've tried changing managers but outcomes seems to be always the same; at some point in time you have to conclude the problem is systemic and changing manager yet once again will lead us nowhere.

To put it blankly, even if we somehow manage to convince Guardiola to take the reins, there's no way he can succeed with the same disastrous structure in place.

 

[Matt851]

That's not what I said, is it? I'm not arguing that we shouldn't be expected to do better, or that Ten Hag (or any manager) necessarily needs an entirely new squad to turn things around.

The coaching thing is always invariably brought up with the idea that other managers have turned shite into gold. They haven't. At best, they turn shite players into slightly less shite players, average players into slightly better than average players, and can find a use for some of them in a squad capacity, which is something Ten Hag has managed here, even if you all want to ignore it.

I've already listed the players Klopp had to ditch before he was able to win anything. I'll also point out that it took a new goalkeeper (who was briefly the most expensive ever, before Chelsea went mad with Kepa), an entire new back-line (one of which was another record breaking fee), most of a new midfield, and most of new front line, for Klopp to best a fourth place finish, and despite being in the job since 2015, has found his title-winning team relying on last minute goals from his goalkeeper to qualify for the Champions League, and has even missed out on it completely.

Perhaps we should heavily critique his ability to identify the kinds of players he needs or his ability to coach them too? After all, he finished behind such inept managers as Solskjaer and Ten Hag in those seasons I mentioned, from a far stronger platform than either of those two.

As for City, 21 players made 10 or more appearances for them the season before Guardiola took over. He'd shifted 12 of them by the start of his second season. Unless we're praising him for making use of De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Sterling, Otamendi, Aguero, Kompany and Silva, we're looking at Yaya Toure and Fabian Delph. He famously fell out with Toure, and Delph was only ever a squad player.

It's very debatable that Howe's injury list is worse, but even so, that doesn't disprove my point. Newcastle lost five games in the league all season last time out. They've already lost six this season. If Howe had improved those players to anything like the levels it's made out he has, why are Newcastle getting pumped by Brighton, Bournemouth, Everton and and an injury hit Spurs side, that had lost four from their last five, as soon as they're not surrounded by £400 million of new signings?

I've said it many times now. There's plenty of things to criticise Ten Hag for without making shit up.

Comparisons to klopp and pep are hilarious

Even before he joined us his record is nothing like as impressive as theirs. The difference between us now and their early days at city ans liverpool besides is being much worse, is that they were clearly building towards something. What is ten hag building other than playing mct9minay upfront?

His plan for this season involved playing mount and Bruno as advanced 8's and leaving an ageing casemiro on his own in midfield which is laughably dumb.

He is also incapable of learning from his mistakes, his in game management is awful, he doesn't improve players, he seems to be falling out with many 9f them and his talent ID is awful but yes let's focus on the positives

 

[Matt851]

1. He had a very good track record with Ajax. Emphasis on the very - roughly 75% win rate, his team scoring around 2.5 goals per game whilst conceding less than 1. Yes it's the Eredivisie, but he is also the first manager to get Ajax to UCL semi-finals since LvG did it back in 96/96 season. And it was not like his Ajax team lucked out by getting weaker oppositions; his Ajax faced off the likes of Real Madrid, Liverpool and Juventus and still his team managed to get 10 wins, 5 draws and 1 loss away.
2. There were times last year, especially post WC, where things look like they are coming together. Despite the debacle by Liverpool.
3.We have had so many managers over the last decade, from Moyes to "master tactician" LvG, to "serial winner" Mourinho, to "feel good old-boy" OGS, and now ETH, and it's the same. The problems seems systemic; we are unable to shift on players whom we no longer want, and we have problem getting in players that fit the vision of the manager.

In short, we've tried changing managers but outcomes seems to be always the same; at some point in time you have to conclude the problem is systemic and changing manager yet once again will lead us nowhere.

To put it blankly, even if we somehow manage to convince Guardiola to take the reins, there's no way he can succeed with the same disastrous structure in place.

The idea we have tried everything in terms of managers so shouldn't replace Ten Hag is very silly. Yes we need to get better at choosing the manager but the idea pep wouldn't do a hell of a lot better than Ten Hag is laughable.

So many of our managerial choices were so obviously poor choices at the time.

The structure can be blamed for some things but not everything and it isn't making Ten Hag setup the team in an abysmal way every week

 

[Red Comet]

The idea we have tried everything in terms of managers so shouldn't replace Ten Hag is very silly. Yes we need to get better at choosing the manager but the idea pep wouldn't do a hell of a lot better than Ten Hag is laughable.

And why so? It's not like Pep has proved himself before in a team where he has had limited resources or challenges in attracting players that he wants, or getting rid of the players he doesn't want. The "Pep Guardiola is my idol" nickname doesn't come from nowhere.

So many of our managerial choices were so obviously poor choices at the time.

Obviously poor, or only obvious in hindsight? I recalled David Moyes' and Mourinho's appointments were really the only ones that people go "really?" but most opinions were generally positive about LvG's appointment (after Moyes) and OGS after the results and the feel-good factor he brought back during his care-taking period.

The structure can be blamed for some things but not everything and it isn't making Ten Hag setup the team in an abysmal way every week

Put it this way, it is clear that there are players that the manager don't want at the club. Note that I'm saying "manager" because it's the same for all the appointments post Fergie. And by failing to move the players on, it limits our ability to bring in new players. Which puts the manager back in an awkward position because he either:

1. Go back to the players who he obviously don't want and has to reintegrate them back into the team one way or the other. This limits the manager's ability to implement his playing style or vision, the team plays poorly, and people start wondering why after so long the manager isn't able to improve the way we play, and new acquisitions can't fully blend in because there's a limitation in playing in the manager's envisioned style;
2. -OR- he can banish the players to muck around in reserves and hope the player don't spread any toxic negativity to the rest of the team. We were able to shift Ronaldo on and this was a watershed moment last year; or in this year's case, Sancho's fallout has made us into a media circus.


However, I do not want to come across looking like a staunch defender of ETH because I'm not. I personally think his transfer acumen only extends to either players he has previously managed or those who had played in Eredivisie. His record against teams in the top 6 is abysmal; even a "PE teacher" like Ole has managed to get good wins against the likes of supposedly superior managers like Pep, Klopp, Tuschel, Bielsa, Poch etc. What I'm saying is that getting rid of ETH now solves nothing and if anything will further entrench player power and make things even more difficult for the next manager while we get into a similar situation 2 years down the road.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Comparisons to klopp and pep are hilarious

Comparisons to Fergie’s early United years are also both hilarious and disrespectful to the great man, who was given nothing like the financial backing of LVG, Mourinho, Ole nor EtH.

For me it’s pointless to fire him now, we’re in the middle of a huge club shake up and we’ve already seen how horrible wrong things can go with an interim manager. Better to let ETH ride out the season, get a fit squad back and prove to his new bosses that he deserves their backing next Summer. However, if performances and results continue as they have so far, he’ll have no-one to blame but himself if they elect to replace him next Summer.