Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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This thing about improving players has to die. Barely any managers come into a club and turn average players into good players, let alone coaches trying to dramatically shift the style of football and under the pressure United managers have to consistently win matches.

Klopp didn't achieve anything until he was able to reliably move on from garbage/average players like Agger, Sakho, Moreno, Clyne, Lucas, Can, Lallana and Benteke.

Howe's Newcastle shit the bed in almost any game they have to rely on the likes of Joelinton, Almiron and Longstaff to be the main men.

Even Guardiola quickly moved on a fair chunk of the players he inherited at City, a squad that was literally being assembled with him in mind.

I'd also argue that we have seen improvements from some players. Wan-Bissaka and Dalot have both looked far better for Ten Hag than they have for previous managers. The issue is that they're shit. Fred (at times) last season and McTominay this season have looked more competent than they have before, but they're both ultimately not very good midfielders. Harry Maguire has literally come back from the dead this season, and Lindelof has looked nowhere near as calamitous as he had previously.
Since when has coaching players to improve as individuals and creating a team that becomes more than the sum of its parts been a “myth”. That seems more like the very essence of being a good Manager to me.

Klopp and Pep have coached countless players to become better versions of themselves and in doing so moulded teams in cohesive units that win major trophies. They bought players, yes. All Managers do.

Eddie Howe has Newcastle a point behind United with an even worse injury list. That’s with Joelinton and Longstaff both on 13 appearances and Almiron playing literally every game.

By all means, back your Manager. But let’s change the definition of Manager to do so.
 
Nope. Both aspects are criticized on their own right. Even if we leave alone the recruitment part, for his supposed coaching how many of our existing players did he improve or for that matter how many of his own signings have been playing at their best.

You cannot just say that his main job is coaching and management of the team and ignore that he is failing at that too.
Eh? Rashford and Dalot had their best seasons under his management. Rashford has nosedived again but that's not foreign to the club and has happened before ten hag. Point is he is able to raise their standards. McTominay has had his best season for the club thus far and it's under his management. Maguire is resurgent, under his tenure and he doesn't even want him in an ideal scenario! Garnacho has broken through under him.

Martinez before his injury was superb.
 
I really need to reconsider whether I should bother coming on this forum anymore
You and me both buddy. If the club's worst start in 40 years, and bottom of a group consisting of Copenhagen and Galatasaray isn't enough to convince folk that he's out of his depth, I don't know what is.
 
We'd have been in a better position if we'd kept Ralf as manager and given him full autonomy over signings than go for De Boer 2.0
Pretty mental opinion really it was obvious his coaching methods were out of touch and his tactics were non-existent. We should have kept him on as DOF though.
 

It is exactly these naive, deluded ideas that are to a large extent to blame for where we are today. Ten Hag is changing the culture, really? We heard the exact same thing about every other manager except Moyes. Absolute nonsense based on nothing. None of the managers that we sacked went on to achieve anything of note, I wonder why. Imagine coming on a TV and going with the embarrassing "we've tried changing managers before" argument.
 
Doing pretty well with Austria
Int'l football a different ball game. We had the option of keeping him on in advisory role. The fact that ETH refused to even talk to him was to me a massive red flag. the best thinkers want to hear everything they can, whereas ETH just wanted to buy from Dutch league
 
Int'l football a different ball game. We had the option of keeping him on in advisory role. The fact that ETH refused to even talk to him was to me a massive red flag. the best thinkers want to hear everything they can, whereas ETH just wanted to buy from Dutch league
Still getting results. His coaching methods can't be that out of touch.
 
Int'l football a different ball game. We had the option of keeping him on in advisory role. The fact that ETH refused to even talk to him was to me a massive red flag. the best thinkers want to hear everything they can, whereas ETH just wanted to buy from Dutch league

Ten Hag didn't want to work with him because Rangnick didn't make himself available to do a handover of duties. Which I actually think is fair enough, given the consultant role Rangnick was supposed to have.
 
Ten Hag didn't want to work with him because Rangnick didn't make himself available to do a handover of duties. Which I actually think is fair enough, given the consultant role Rangnick was supposed to have.
Oh, I didn't know about this. Are there more juicy details?
 
Oh, I didn't know about this. Are there more juicy details?
https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/37629549/ten-hag-role-rangnick-exit

Sources told ESPN that United instigated the termination of the agreement in consultation with Ten Hag, although Rangnick was already unhappy at not being granted a formal handover with the new manager.


Rangnick, according to sources, was expecting to meet Ten Hag face to face for a detailed meeting but instead the new United boss opted to grant only a phone call.

Sources also told ESPN that United bosses had become increasingly exasperated by some of Rangnick's public comments in news conferences, particularly that as many as 10 new signings were necessary this summer. Sources added that United asked Rangnick to sign a nondisclosure agreement as part of his departure.
 
I would not use Europe as an example. Onana single handedly sabotaged the entire campaign this season. Not that our football was good enough to clear the next round, but we had enough to get through the round.
The PL campaign has been disappointing though.
The goalkeeper is one of the 11 players on the pitch though. You can't hand-wave away his poor performances just because some of the other players may have played well.
 
This is some amazing level of revisionism.

Indeed, the fact the story was he didn't want to stay and was angling for a UCL club all summer revisionism
The fact the club didn't want to sell him that summer because they couldn't afford to replace him revisionism
The fact he was upset about having to take a 25% pay cut when he felt us missing out of UCL had nothing to do with him revisionism
The fact he wasn't fit to start the season due to missing pre season (he did have a valid reason) but he was still upset he was not starting games revisionism
The fact when he played he played and the manager even gave him the captaincy he didn't play well and was poor in front of goal revisionism
 
The fact the club didn't want to sell him that summer because they couldn't afford to replace him revisionism
Sell him to whom exactly? He was twerking entire summer for any CL club that would take him, but not even when he was on free anyone from CL wanted to do it. Where was his transfer blocked by anyone in the club and how did it force him to go on Piers Morgan?
 
Sell him to whom exactly? He was twerking entire summer for any CL club that would take him, but not even when he was on free anyone from CL wanted to do it. Where was his transfer blocked by anyone in the club and how did it force him to go on Piers Morgan?

He reportedly wanted the club to let him go for free, a few clubs were interested but not with a transfer fee plus his crazy wages and yes he was twerking all summer I agree.
He went on Piers Morgan so we would agree to terminate him quite clearly which is what ended up happening, e.g he got the free transfer he was always after.

Revisionism would be acting like he wanted to stay at United and work with ETH before the season started, he didn't which is why suggesting ETH is the reason he left is pretty silly, he always wanted out fullstop.
 


He makes some good points and yes, the administrative side of the club has been poor for some time, and that needs to change and it will. But I do not think the off-field matters are the reason we cannot play a decent game of football under ETH. The game against Chelsea (yes, this current Chelsea team) is seen as our high point. That cannot be acceptable.

I don't want ETH anymore, I just don't think he can really handle this job, and I question his quality as a coach. But, I say we leave him, as the next thing is for the takeover to progress and complete. Give new ownership time to set themselves up and audit the whole flippin' place including the playing staff. ETH can handle the reigns until then.
 
Not sure what you're trying to say. My point is proven because these players are acting like kids and throwing tantrums if they are dropped - sometimes I assume posters follow the club, obviously I am mistaken in this regard, Sancho was this year, Varane was this year...not sure who you can't see what's going on in front of your eyes. Name another club where this has happened on the scale we are seeing? ETH is, at least, taking on these players and essentially forcing them out.

The fact McT has come out and said that proves how bad it has been. You don't just randomly give an interview and say 'it is not toxic anymore'. Start reading posts before replying.

What you saying doesn't even make sense.

You: someone has come in and tried to instill some discipline and it's becoming open revolt.

Mctominay says that's not the case - states players are behind the managers and makes reference to instances with previous managers in which that was not the case. Previous reports corroborate this.

You: The fact McT has come out and said that proves how bad it has been

Mctominay actively disproved your assertion yet you think it's corroboration for it. It's not becoming open revolt. The club and the players are - by most reports - behind the manager. Managers fall out with players all the time, for different reasons, everywhere. Ten Hag has chosen to banish some, some opted to leave - the team is with the manager, as is the club - where is this "it's becoming open revolt" thing coming from? The hostility in your posts doesn't change this
 
He reportedly wanted the club to let him go for free, a few clubs were interested but not with a transfer fee plus his crazy wages and yes he was twerking all summer I agree.
He went on Piers Morgan so we would agree to terminate him quite clearly which is what ended up happening, e.g he got the free transfer he was always after.
Then why didn't any CL club approach him when it happened? Even with 25% pay cut, he was among the best paid players in Europe, way above what anyone bar few CL clubs could ever afford to pay. And if he was receptive to Saudi offer in the summer, his wages wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.
Revisionism would be acting like he wanted to stay at United and work with ETH before the season started, he didn't which is why suggesting ETH is the reason he left is pretty silly, he always wanted out fullstop.
Oh yea, that part I agree with. It's still a problem for ETH to deal with, but I really don't think that there was any possibility of anyone getting a good outcome out of him.
 
He makes some good points and yes, the administrative side of the club has been poor for some time, and that needs to change and it will. But I do not think the off-field matters are the reason we cannot play a decent game of football under ETH. The game against Chelsea (yes, this current Chelsea team) is seen as our high point. That cannot be acceptable.

I don't want ETH anymore, I just don't think he can really handle this job, and I question his quality as a coach. But, I say we leave him, as the next thing is for the takeover to progress and complete. Give new ownership time to set themselves up and audit the whole flippin' place including the playing staff. ETH can handle the reigns until then.
This is where I sit as well. He stays until Ineos decide what to do. If they decide to sack him straight away, I'm fine with that, equally if they want to see how things go until the end of the season, I'm okay with that too. I don't think it will happen but it's important we don't sack him and either be in a state of limbo with no replacement or we sack him and it's Murtough picking the replacement.
 
What you saying doesn't even make sense.

You: someone has come in and tried to instill some discipline and it's becoming open revolt.

Mctominay says that's not the case - states players are behind the managers and makes reference to instances with previous managers in which that was not the case

You: The fact McT has come out and said that proves how bad it has been

Mctominay actively disproved your assertion yet you think it's corroboration for it.
Because it happened once and then has continued to happen into this season with greater numbers...

to become (verb)
1. begin to be.

Just to clarify, you think that McT decided to come out and say 'guys, completely random timing, but we're all with ETH and it was shit before but now we're all united'?
 
Then why didn't any CL club approach him when it happened? Even with 25% pay cut, he was among the best paid players in Europe, way above what anyone bar few CL clubs could ever afford to pay. And if he was receptive to Saudi offer in the summer, his wages wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.

Oh yea, that part I agree with. It's still a problem for ETH to deal with, but I really don't think that there was any possibility of anyone getting a good outcome out of him.

United has no intention of letting him leave in the summer, because as widely reported they didn't want to replace him.
He forced his move in Jan out of United by doing the interview.
There not being any UCL clubs in for him is because he was clearly past it as we witnessed between the summer and Jan
 
So basically the reality is the opposite of what the other poster was claiming.

Yeah I've definitely misremembered that and swapped them round.

Still don't think it's entirely unreasonable that he didn't want the former manager hanging around as a consultant, whatever that was going to entail, but odd that he wouldn't meet face to face.
 
It still feels a little like people want a rebuild without doing a rebuild. I agree after saturday that football wise there is major major concerns now, I think its as bad as weve looked in a decade, but you cant use some of the drama as a stick to beat ten hag with. Lets say hes right and there have been ego issues, dressing room issues, lack of effort issues - then somebody tell me how to rid a squad of these players without 'drama'. And also how to do it so quickly a new squad is good to go. For no other reason than absolute exhaustion with the same thing over and over and over, I'd stick with him.
 
Because it happened once and then has continued to happen into this season with greater numbers...

to become (verb)
1. begin to be.

Just to clarify, you think that McT decided to come out and say 'guys, completely random timing, but we're all with ETH and it was shit before but now we're all united'?

What are we doing here? :lol: A manager falling out with three players, at different times, and for different reasons, doesn't translate to "it's becoming open revolt" especially so when active players of the squad tell you that is not the case.

That's cute, but Mctominay didn't come out and say "guys, completely random timing, but-". It is habitual that whenever a Manchester United manager has shortcomings and is underperforming - people will start with the players have downed tools/lost the lockeroom/squad revolt stuff - as such; he was asked during the pre-match press - "what's the share responsibility of the players to stop the endless cycle/revolving door of managers"? And he answered by saying that unlike with previous managers - the players are fully and firmly behind EtH
 
What are we doing here? :lol: A manager falling out with three players, at different times, and for different reasons, doesn't translate to "it's becoming open revolt" especially so when active players of the squad tell you that is not the case.

That's cute, but Mctominay didn't come out and say "guys, completely random timing, but-". It is habitual that whenever a Manchester United manager has shortcomings and is underperforming - people will start with the players have downed tools/lost the lockeroom/squad revolt stuff - as such; he was asked during the pre-match press - "what's the share responsibility of the players to stop the endless cycle/revolving door of managers"? And he answered by saying that unlike with previous managers - the players are fully behind EtH
So I go back to the question I asked you before, when/where does this ever happen elsewhere in football? Unless you actually thought the players needed to grab some pitchforks and chase ETH from the dressing room for it to be deemed a revolt, I assume you are aware of context and how unprecedented it is for someone to fall out with so many players in a comparatively short amount of time. Our squad has been player powered for way too long and ETH is not a manager who is going to focus on everyone being happy to achieve things.

McT is a good egg, he's not a great player but he's always had a good attitude but I don't think he needed to offer up that info or the idea of it being toxic previously. It's a shitty journo question but he could have just given a stock answer, he didn't do that because there is so much noise going around in my opinion. Also, what else is he going to say sitting next to ETH? 'We have some bad eggs in the team we need to get rid of'.
 

I misremembered this, for what it's worth. Other way round with the frustrations about a meeting.

Still don't think it's too unreasonable that Ten Hag didn't want the former manager hanging around as a part-time "consultant" though.
 
I misremembered this, for what it's worth. Other way round with the frustrations about a meeting.

Still don't think it's too unreasonable that Ten Hag didn't want the former manager hanging around as a part-time "consultant" though.
Yeah, with the greatest of respect to them they both seem like two stubborn mules and it probably never would have worked.
 
It is exactly these naive, deluded ideas that are to a large extent to blame for where we are today. Ten Hag is changing the culture, really? We heard the exact same thing about every other manager except Moyes. Absolute nonsense based on nothing. None of the managers that we sacked went on to achieve anything of note, I wonder why. Imagine coming on a TV and going with the embarrassing "we've tried changing managers before" argument.

It's so ridiculous and I never see anyone use that logic with players. We've tried signing strikers so why buy Hojlund when we should have just stuck with Hugill? Be patient though, give him at least 2 seasons and don't knee jerk saying he's not good enough until he's had time. Why are we supposed to play by different rules than the rest of the football world?
 
This thing about improving players has to die. Barely any managers come into a club and turn average players into good players, let alone coaches trying to dramatically shift the style of football and under the pressure United managers have to consistently win matches.

Klopp didn't achieve anything until he was able to reliably move on from garbage/average players like Agger, Sakho, Moreno, Clyne, Lucas, Can, Lallana and Benteke.

Howe's Newcastle shit the bed in almost any game they have to rely on the likes of Joelinton, Almiron and Longstaff to be the main men.

Even Guardiola quickly moved on a fair chunk of the players he inherited at City, a squad that was literally being assembled with him in mind.

I'd also argue that we have seen improvements from some players. Wan-Bissaka and Dalot have both looked far better for Ten Hag than they have for previous managers. The issue is that they're shit. Fred (at times) last season and McTominay this season have looked more competent than they have before, but they're both ultimately not very good midfielders. Harry Maguire has literally come back from the dead this season, and Lindelof has looked nowhere near as calamitous as he had previously.

So essentially, All our players are shite, Eth cannot improve them, but if we do see an improvement in some of them, the manager gets the credit while if other players regress or don't improve , its on the players because they are shite.

@Daydreamer posted almost the exact response I wanted to say. What is the point of manager if they cannot improve the players.

Yes, our squad may not be the highest quality to be competing with City, but if you are saying that Eth needed a whole new squad of his own players to win against bottom half teams, then its ridiculous.

Even if I agree that the squad is "uncoachable", then how do you expect Eth to fix it, given that he cannot identify the kind of players he needs?.
 
So essentially, All our players are shite, Eth cannot improve them, but if we do see an improvement in some of them, the manager gets the credit while if other players regress or don't improve , its on the players because they are shite.

@Daydreamer posted almost the exact response I wanted to say. What is the point of manager if they cannot improve the players.

Yes, our squad may not be the highest quality to be competing with City, but if you are saying that Eth needed a whole new squad of his own players to win against bottom half teams, then its ridiculous.

Even if I agree that the squad is "uncoachable", then how do you expect Eth to fix it, given that he cannot identify the kind of players he needs?.

Most not all, and yes this is a fact which is why we have been shit for many seasons
 
Eh? Rashford and Dalot had their best seasons under his management. Rashford has nosedived again but that's not foreign to the club and has happened before ten hag. Point is he is able to raise their standards. McTominay has had his best season for the club thus far and it's under his management. Maguire is resurgent, under his tenure and he doesn't even want him in an ideal scenario! Garnacho has broken through under him.

Martinez before his injury was superb.

You are clutching at straws if you claim Dalot and Mctominay as improvements. Youth players have broken through under every manager and Garnacho is no exception.
 
You are clutching at straws if you claim Dalot and Mctominay as improvements. Youth players have broken through under every manager and Garnacho is no exception.
He's improved them as players. Rashford had his best season in his career under Ten Hag. Bruno and Shaw were shadows of themselves in the season prior before Ten Hag came and also had strong season. His sense to change McTominays position and utilize him for his goalscoring shows he knows where to put his players to take advantage of their strengths.
This idea that hes a bad manager is just such a farce, knee jerk stupidity from footballing folk who want to look at 6months and but exclude most of everything else.
 
I don’t really know what people are seeing in ETH to have so much faith in him.
 
It's not what we see in ETH it's what we've seen in the players.
 
I don’t really know what people are seeing in ETH to have so much faith in him.
The faith is based on a decent run in the CL with Ajax 4 years ago (before blowing a 3 goal lead to an average Spurs side)
 
The faith is based on a decent run in the CL with Ajax 4 years ago (before blowing a 3 goal lead to an average Spurs side)

Also for fecking off Ronaldo plus some excellent interviews. There was also the video from preseason of him laying out training cones. Holistic manager.
 
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