Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Alex99]

And yet every club he's been at would swap their current manager immediately to get Guardiola back. Probably every club in the world would swap their manager immediately for Guardiola. He makes players look greater than they already are.

This is a pointless hypothetical.

They probably would, but he'd also probably never accept those posts because he's only ever shown interest in managing sides set up to dominate. It's by the by whether he made them slightly more dominant than they otherwise might have been.

It's also not a case of making great players greater at Manchester United, which is the context of the discussion whenever he's brought up as an example of someone who's improved the players he's got at his disposal.

But nobody is saying that.

Then why is he constantly brought up as someone who'd have the likes of Lindelof, Dalot, McTominay and Martial competing near the top of the table?

 

[Alex99]

What's even the activity going on in this video? Looks very chaotic.

Looks to me like:

Group A aims to complete a certain number of passes (say 5) in one box, while Group B challenges for the ball. When they've hit 5, they pass into the second box, where Group C look to do the same, with Group B having to chase over and challenge there.

If you lose the ball, your group becomes the defensive team.

 

[Zehner]

This is a pointless hypothetical.

They probably would, but he'd also probably never accept those posts because he's only ever shown interest in managing sides set up to dominate. It's by the by whether he made them slightly more dominant than they otherwise might have been.

It's also not a case of making great players greater at Manchester United, which is the context of the discussion whenever he's brought up as an example of someone who's improved the players he's got at his disposal.

The reason why Guardiola's players look so good is the same reason why players at United always seem to drop a level or two. He provides them with a platform to shine, United does the exact opposite.

And of course he's only ever shown interest in managing sides set up to dominate. If you are the best, you want to work with the best. It's the same for every player out there. Guardiola was simply so good from the beginning that he never had to prove himself at a smaller club. His effect on United would be absolutely transformative. He wouldn't abandon his vision of playing football like Ten Hag.

 

[Alex99]

The reason why Guardiola's players look so good is the same reason why players at United always seem to drop a level or two. He provides them with a platform to shine, United does the exact opposite.

And of course he's only ever shown interest in managing sides set up to dominate. If you are the best, you want to work with the best. It's the same for every player out there. Guardiola was simply so good from the beginning that he never had to prove himself at a smaller club. His effect on United would be absolutely transformative. He wouldn't abandon his vision of playing football like Ten Hag.

We can't even decide, as a fanbase, whether Tan Hag is shit for abandoning his principles, or whether he's shit for stubbornly sticking to them. That's a moot point.

Have you seen that training clip above? Guardiola would have an aneurysm trying to coach that lot to play how he wants his teams to play.

He couldn't even get City in the title picture in his first season, and barely managed top four, and that was a club preparing for his arrival, that had won the title a couple of seasons prior. You think he's managing to get much more out of the likes of Dalot, Lindelof, McTominay and Martial than Ten Hag is?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Then why is he constantly brought up as someone who'd have the likes of Lindelof, Dalot, McTominay and Martial competing near the top of the table?

Here's the thing: you are saying that Guardiola "did not turn shite into gold" by looking at the previous results from two of the clubs he managed. That's a reasonable argument.

But you are also repeatedly criticizing the United squad and saying that players like Dalot, Wan-Bissaka, McTominay, etc. range from "not very good" to "shit." But United's previous results don't support that statement: the last four league finishes are 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 3rd. The average point tally is 67-68, in the very competitive Premier League.

This is not a league-winning squad, obviously, but how can the players be such shit and somehow finish ahead of 17-18 other teams?

 

[Hoof the ball]

Christ. We're the banter of Twitter this morning. The state of our rondo.

 

[Zehner]

You think he's managing to get much more out of the likes of Dalot, Lindelof, McTominay and Martial than Ten Hag is?

Yes, absolutely

 

[Shark]

He's not leaving until the new owners take charge.

You're probably right. If we get absolutely destroyed by both Bayern and Liverpool which is a likely possibility, I'm taking about 5-6-0 thumpings, they could be forced to act though. Depends on the manor of the defeats.

 

[red_de_pologne]

If he starts McTominay tonight, i hope we get flattened 5-0

If he starts him?

 

[erikcred]

Looks to me like:

Group A aims to complete a certain number of passes (say 5) in one box, while Group B challenges for the ball. When they've hit 5, they pass into the second box, where Group C look to do the same, with Group B having to chase over and challenge there.

If you lose the ball, your group becomes the defensive team.

If only Groups A and C could actually play the passes. We'd be scary to face.

 

[Alex99]

Here's the thing: you are saying that Guardiola "did not turn shite into gold" by looking at the previous results from two of the clubs he managed. That's a reasonable argument.

But you are also repeatedly criticizing the United squad and saying that players like Dalot, Wan-Bissaka, McTominay, etc. range from "not very good" to "shit." But United's previous results don't support that statement: the last four league finishes are 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 3rd. The average point tally is 67-68, in the very competitive Premier League.

Even with the best results there, many (including our own fans) pointed to one or more teams that they considered to be actually better than us, despite finishing below us in the league.

We've consistently had a squad largely full of average players, carried by purple-patches of form and a few stop-gap signings to occasionally achieve a top four finish.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this because I think it's utter fantasy to think that Guardiola has this side performing much better than they are. A bit better, probably, but nothing worth shouting about.

Yes, absolutely

As I said above, we're going to have to agree to disagree then. This is a team full of players that (as evidenced above) can't even keep the ball down to string four passes together.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But you don't just give a coach time because another coach almost 40 years ago proved to be worth it. Each situation needs to be analyzed individually. And personally, I don't see how things should improve significantly.

I agree, I’m actually making that point if you read the conversation.

 

[Mart1974]

That's how it comes across when using Pep in this hypothetical instance of managing United. Erik is essentially one window away from having an outlay of potentially 600 million more than any manager post SAF (if he survives this season) and look at the state of the team approaching this period progress has been mute to say the least. This is a manager who has been battered and tactically undermined on multiple occasions, on the verge of not even making the group stages in the UCL.

You give Pep 400-600 million you can almost guarantee that his team will be challenging on every front. Pep will get more out of average players because he's an inspirational manager, Erik is not, he's routinely falling out with players and clearly lacks charisma.

Guardiola is the best manager in football for the last 15 years or so and his philosophy has changed the modern game due to his vision. It's like comparing Bojan and Messi. Eth like Bojan has showed promise but it's relative to the sample size we are given being small as he's only managed in Netherlands. Eth has just as much to prove as Mount, Onana, Hojlund or Antony. If he's failed to deliver in the promise he's displayed he has no one to blame but himself.

The problem with United has never been the hierarchy ostracizing a manager from resources or accessibility, it's been the continuous theme of overindulgence. Overindulging what the manager wants from staff to recruitment to philosophy with no deliberation from a director of football and the managers have failed to balance those responsibilities.

The problem comparing with Pep is that the 400-600 million for Utd is not the same as it is for City. Utd cannot afford to spend 100 million on fullbacks and then discard them and spend another 100 million on fullbacks. Utd cannot always compete for a player because we have to pay players legitimately, we cannot for instance pay less than is quoted for Kieron Tripper and then the selling club mysteriously obtain a significant sponsorship deal from a company based in our owning nation. The wages would come out of the 600 million budget, rather than allegedly coming in part from image rights deals or ambassadorial payments. Pep would not get the same value because Utd do not get the same value. We get rinsed by clubs just for being us.

 

[Robbie Boy]

We will lose both and he would still be here. Quote me when I am wrong.

You're not wrong.

Absolutely nothing will happen until INEOS have done their own evaluations. People getting wound up by ETH may have to be enraged for the long haul. We're going to have hundreds of messages on here full sure that he's gonna be gone after the next 2 games, but I'm 100% confident he'll still be here no matter what the results are.

 

[Alex99]

You're not wrong.

Absolutely nothing will happen until INEOS have done their own evaluations. People getting wound up by ETH may have to be enraged for the long haul. We're going to have hundreds of messages on here full sure that he's gonna be gone after the next 2 games, but I'm 100% confident he'll still be here no matter what the results are.

I've not written off the possibility that he gets the boot (particularly when you look at our games this month) and we do a Chelsea and bring back Ole on an interim basis.

 

[Rista]

Here's the thing: you are saying that Guardiola "did not turn shite into gold" by looking at the previous results from two of the clubs he managed. That's a reasonable argument.

But you are also repeatedly criticizing the United squad and saying that players like Dalot, Wan-Bissaka, McTominay, etc. range from "not very good" to "shit." But United's previous results don't support that statement: the last four league finishes are 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 3rd. The average point tally is 67-68, in the very competitive Premier League.

This is not a league-winning squad, obviously, but how can the players be such shit and somehow finish ahead of 17-18 other teams?

United fans hate the club and the players but love the manager. We finished 3rd last season, we've spent 400 million since ETH was appointed and somehow both "players are shit" and "it's not on ETH" statements are supposed to be true. We've had plenty of decent finishes under Mourinho and Ole too but people for some reason want to portray the players in the worst possible light, making it seem like ETH is managing a bunch of amateurs. I know Rashford hasn't been good this season but how quickly do people forget we'd be nowhere last season without his contribution for example.

 

[TrueRed79]

If he starts McTominay tonight, i hope we get flattened 5-0

As plastic a post as you will get.

 

[Alex99]

United fans hate the club and the players but love the manager. We finished 3rd last season, we've spent 400 million since ETH was appointed and somehow both "players are shit" and "it's not on ETH" statements are supposed to be true. We've had plenty of decent finishes under Mourinho and Ole too but people for some reason want to portray the players in the worst possible light, making it seem like ETH is managing a bunch of amateurs. I know Rashford hasn't been good this season but how quickly do people forget we'd be nowhere last season without his contribution for example.

I'm happy to admit that Ten Hag could be doing better.

However, it remains somewhat unfair to go "he's spent £400 million" and ignore that:

a) he shouldn't have been in a position to spend like that if the targets weren't right (and yes, this includes not hiring him in the first place, if those were his demands), and
b) that £200 million of that has been sat on the treatment table for most of the season (Martinez, Casemiro, Mount), and the bulk of the other £200 million should never have been authorised at their respective prices in the first place (Antony, Hojlund).

Spending money badly (which you could easily argue is the case for any of Antony, Casemiro, Hojlund, Mount and Onana) because you've failed to provide the manager with a proper recruitment structure (which again, includes not hiring a manager who doesn't want one), leaving him relying on free transfers, a string of loans, and players inherited from managers that wanted their sides to play a vastly different style of football, is a very unfair stick to beat Ten Hag with, even if he could still be doing better in the circumstance (adapting tactics to suit, better in game management, etc.)

I quite often see "look at what our old managers have done since leaving us" as evidence of how bad our appointments have been (and they have been awful), but it's somehow never a factor with the players who've left us, who have almost entirely left us to achieve sweet feck all.

About the only exceptions are Di Maria (who never actually wanted to come here in the first place) and the few that ended up at Inter Milan (Lukaku, Young, Sanchez and Darmian). With the Inter Milan lot, Lukaku has managed to remain a global laughing stock, and the other three were rotation options/substitutes.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Let's be honest, we're simply in the long goodbye phase with Ten Hag. He obviously won't be sacked under the current ownership structure. Tonight and Sunday won't make a difference, but I'm expecting two bad losses.

 

[RedDevil@84]

If he starts McTominay tonight, i hope we get flattened 5-0

Top fan.

 

[Skills]

United fans hate the club and the players but love the manager. We finished 3rd last season, we've spent 400 million since ETH was appointed and somehow both "players are shit" and "it's not on ETH" statements are supposed to be true. We've had plenty of decent finishes under Mourinho and Ole too but people for some reason want to portray the players in the worst possible light, making it seem like ETH is managing a bunch of amateurs. I know Rashford hasn't been good this season but how quickly do people forget we'd be nowhere last season without his contribution for example.

Yup. We should shut down the whole football side part of the club, and become some managerial institution.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Let's be honest, we're simply in the long goodbye phase with Ten Hag. He obviously won't be sacked under the current ownership structure. Tonight and Sunday won't make a difference, but I'm expecting two bad losses.

He rightfully shouldn’t be sacked just yet and there’s zero chance as you say of anything happening until the INEOS deal is confirmed.
Unless January is an absolute disaster, I can’t see any change of him losing his job this season.

And why would anyone want to change out now anyway? We’ve seen just what a shit show it can be with an interim.

He’ll get to the Summer to prove himself to his new bosses.

 

[Zehner]

As I said above, we're going to have to agree to disagree then. This is a team full of players that (as evidenced above) can't even keep the ball down to string four passes together.

Not being able to string four passes together is exactly what Guardiola solves. This is almost always down to positional play and routines. People like to say he needs elite level players to play his system but that couldn't be more wrong. Positional play is all about providing easy and risk-free passing options and automate decision making which especially helps players who don't have the elite awareness and/or technique to find "improvised" solutions in the build up. That's how de Zerbi has Brighton punching above their weight.

I agree, I’m actually making that point if you read the conversation.

My bad

 

[Berbaclass]

Yes, absolutely

Or he’d just instantly bin them like he did with many players when he took over City.

Ten Hag’s biggest mistake for me is that he just hasn’t been ruthless enough.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

He’ll get to the Summer to prove himself to his new bosses.

To be fair we don't know that. A lot of variables. What does Ratcliffe think of Ten Hag? When does Ratcliffe come on board? Can Ratcliffe sack and hire managers without Glazer input or approval?

 

[RedDevil@84]

I know Rashford hasn't been good this season but how quickly do people forget we'd be nowhere last season without his contribution for example.

For which he was awarded a silly contract and then his form nose dived. Which means he has had 1 good season in almost 3 to 3.5 years now. Wouldn't blame anyone whose patience is running low.

 

[Berbaclass]

To be fair we don't know that. A lot of variables. What does Ratcliffe think of Ten Hag? When does Ratcliffe come on board? Can Ratcliffe sack and hire managers without Glazer input of approval?

Ratcliffe won’t decide to sack anyone. It will be someone like Blanc that decides. And yes he will have the authority.

 

[Alex99]

Not being able to string four passes together is exactly what Guardiola solves. This is almost always down to positional play and routines. People like to say he needs elite level players to play his system but that couldn't be more wrong. Positional play is all about providing easy and risk-free passing options and automate decision making which especially helps players who don't have the elite awareness and/or technique to find "improvised" solutions in the build up. That's how de Zerbi has Brighton punching above their weight.

Guardiola needs hard-working, technically gifted players to have them stringing four passes together in his system.

If you're looking at stringing four passes together with this lot, it's LvG-ball again.

Or he’d just instantly bin them like he did with many players when he took over City.

Ten Hag’s biggest mistake for me is that he just hasn’t been ruthless enough.

It's difficult to be ruthless in our circumstances, in all fairness.

He managed to get rid of Ronaldo because he decided to go nuclear on the club, and drop Sancho because he's shit and acting like a child.

After that you're looking at De Gea sitting on a big contract, playing shit, then being surprised when the club want to reduce his terms, and managing to sell Fred to the Turkish league.

 

[stefan92]

Not being able to string four passes together is exactly what Guardiola solves. This is almost always down to positional play and routines.

Did you watch the twitter video he meant? They were standing around in a rondo and misplacing passes, that evidence wasn't actual in game footage. Positional play and routines are completely irrelevant for that training exercise.

 

[Berbaclass]

Guardiola needs hard-working, technically gifted players to have them stringing four passes together in his system.

If you're looking at stringing four passes together with this lot, it's LvG-ball again.



It's difficult to be ruthless in our circumstances, in all fairness.

He managed to get rid of Ronaldo because he decided to go nuclear on the club, and drop Sancho because he's shit and acting like a child.

After that you're looking at De Gea sitting on a big contract, playing shit, then being surprised when the club want to reduce his terms, and managing to sell Fred to the Turkish league.

I just mean in terms of continuing to play some players who obviously have no future here.

 

[Alex99]

I just mean in terms of continuing to play some players who obviously have no future here.

I'd say that's somewhat out of his control too.

The option up front is run Hojlund into the ground, in midfield it's run Mainoo into the ground, and I'm not sure what other options we have at the back, given that Varane seems to also not have a future here.

 

[Berbaclass]

I'd say that's somewhat out of his control too.

The option up front is run Hojlund into the ground, in midfield it's run Mainoo into the ground, and I'm not sure what other options we have at the back, given that Varane seems to also not have a future here.

I get what you’re saying but we can play other players in those positions. Rashford as a forward etc.

Players like Martial shouldn’t be anywhere near the pitch.

 

[Alex99]

I get what you’re saying but we can play other players in those positions. Rashford as a forward etc.

Players like Martial shouldn’t be anywhere near the pitch.

But Rashford has been awful too. I'm not sure that really changes anything other than which crap player we rotate in.

 

[Oranges038]

Christ. We're the banter of Twitter this morning. The state of our rondo.

That is just appalling.

 

[Pscholes18]

That is just appalling.

And now we know why we're not seeing an Ajax style of play.

 

[Zehner]

Or he’d just instantly bin them like he did with many players when he took over City.

Ten Hag’s biggest mistake for me is that he just hasn’t been ruthless enough.

Pep might bin them if he has the choice but assuming he wouldn't, he'd definitely get more out of them. I remember Pep's start at Bayern. He was short of midfielders and played 17 year old Gaudino in CM who finished his first game of professional football with 97% passing accuracy. He now plays in the Swiss League. The organization and automatisms in a Guardiola team make it far easier for everybody to have a decent game. And that's generally true for all managers of his school, even though he's the best of them.

And for me, that's why Ten Hag's biggest mistake is abandoning the playstyle that made him successful. He would never have gotten this job in the first place if he tried to implement his current system at Ajax. That's the root of it all - the weird players he signed, that some of his former players look much worse all of a sudden, that he can't get results consistently, etc. You could maybe even argue that his fallout with Sancho is due to this because out of all your players, he's the one suited best for the style Ten Hag used to stand for.

 

[Berbaclass]

But Rashford has been awful too. I'm not sure that really changes anything other than which crap player we rotate in.

Rashford isn't about to be released, that was my point.

 

[Alex99]

Rashford isn't about to be released, that was my point.

If we get a half decent bid for him in the summer (we won't) we should accept it.

He's also on the chopping block, as far I'm concerned, he's just further back in the queue than most.

No point having a player on his wages that can only perform for half a season every three or four years.

 

[Zehner]

Guardiola needs hard-working, technically gifted players to have them stringing four passes together in his system.

If you're looking at stringing four passes together with this lot, it's LvG-ball again.

I don't think he needs technically gifted players as much as people say. 99% of the time, he wants his players to pick the easy option that is super easy to execute technically.

Did you watch the twitter video he meant? They were standing around in a rondo and misplacing passes, that evidence wasn't actual in game footage. Positional play and routines are completely irrelevant for that training exercise.

I did. Just don't think it has any meaning. United's players are definitely good enough technically to play a positional system. Every professional player is in principle.

 

[Alex99]

I don't think he needs technically gifted players as much as people say. 99% of the time, he wants his players to pick the easy option that is super easy to execute technically.





I did. Just don't think it has any meaning. United's players are definitely good enough technically to play a positional system. Every professional player is in principle.

Yes, and a positional system utilising those players is much more likely to resemble that god-awful van Gaal style than it is anything Guardiola has ever done.