Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Improving structure of the club affects manager succession, meaning we shouldn't be hearing nonsense about giving managers 3 years and hundreds of millions to rebuild the team. Improving club structure should mean we're not giving managers free reign to sign dross like Antony, Hojlund and Mount.

However how does it explain a manager/coach being unable to coach his players to a decent standard? How does it explain being tactically outwitted? How does it explain falling out with players? How does it explain poor in game management? How does it explain getting thrashed 7-0? Or scoring a pathetic 18 games in 16 games?

No doubt our club is run by morons and it's shite. No doubt we have infrastructure in need of modernisation. But anyone waffling on about structure as a way to absolve the manager of blame for failing as a manager, is frankly talking out their arse. Ironically if our club had a better structure in place we'd have probably sacked Ten Hag by now because we'd have already had a list of suitable replacements
Exactly this. If this "proper structure" was put in place, it would mean the likes of Ten Hag would get less time than they are currently getting. He wouldn't survive anywhere close to this long at, say, Bayern. Or any other bigger club for that matter.

But for some reason, our fanbase is concerned about "breaking the cycle of sacking managers". Why?? People will seek for super rare examples of giving manager time somewhat working out but will ignore what appointing someone like Howe or Emery can do, just to push this idea that we shouldn't sack managers. I'm hearing that prat Goldbridge calling people "idiots" for advocating a managerial change. Why tf are we so afraid of doing that?

I think a bit of perspective here is that as rotten as we currently are, we are still on course for a 68 pts season. If we just improve even slightly and get a couple of wins against top 10 teams, we would basically match last season’s tally, which has seen only 3 teams lose out on CL football with 75 pts or more in the last 20 years iirc, not even taking into account the possible 5th spot.
Thing is, the point tally is very, very flattering. Look at who we beat and how we beat them. Look at how many goals we've scored in 16 games. We're at negative goal difference! Realistically, we're much closer to mid table than top 4.
 
Feels like we'd almost have to start from scratch if we want to get there with this current squad. Barely any of them are suited for that, including some of his own signings.

Most of his players would fit in that system. Whither they are good enough remains to be seen (ex Anthony) . What irks me the most is his obsession with playing 2 no 10s. That alone is enough 4 me for us to seek alternatives
 
We are going to be set back another 5 years now or more. Players like Antony, Onana, Mount are going to be difficult to offload. Hojilund also if he turns out to be a flop. Then we have an abundance of players that ETH failed to offload from previous regimes that are still starting games.
 
Its not shifting the goal post, it is contextualising the wall of numbers you posted. Nobody would complain (or number would be quite less) about the Manager’s tactics if it also led to us going down the other end and scoring/ looking like scoring. Instead, we have achieved the remarkable feat of looking like conceding, while carrying very little threat ourselves. That’s why people are questioning the ‘system’.
I, along with others, have been supporting the club for more than 2 decades and are well used to seeing our team shipping in goals but adopting a mentality of outscoring the opponents. 2002-03 one of my favourite campaign where we conceded a lot but also scored a lot. Same was the case in SAF’s last campaign where we were involved in high scoring encounters.
When fans are complaining about us being ‘porous’, it is in the context of our complete inability to be a threat at the other end.

You are shifting goalposts.

Even the goal scoring thing ignores how blunt Klopp's Liverpool have been at times.
 
You are shifting goalposts.

Even the goal scoring thing ignores how blunt Klopp's Liverpool have been at times.
If you believe this, then there is not really much discuss anything more.
Even disregarding the goal threat that both teams carried, the stats already prove that this United team is far more likely to concede 3 or more goals than last year’s Liverpool team. The system that Ten Hag is trying to implement is inherently flawed, that was the whole point of my original post you quoted.
 
The budget is what it is and it's not eth fault that saudi Is probably offering our pensioners 3 times the money for less work. That said I do agree that ETH had made his share of mistakes. I wouldn't have bought mount for example

He has made mistake after mistake. If the whole system depends on a left footed CB who can pass out of the back, be sure to have a backup.

And if that is the case, do we want such a one dimensional manager?

What has Saudi got to do with it? You implying that Casemiro and Varane have downed tools because they may be seeking Saudi contracts?
 
The only player he has publicly criticised this season is Sancho. Everyone else he has praised. Sometimes he's made sure to keep them grounded, like Garnacho. But he's defended every player to the hilt. Even the ones who do not give half their energy on the pitch. He's gotten quite a few positive responses and quite a few set backs so far this season. He's clearly not figured out his most efficient midfield in and out of possession with the options currently available and the same goes for the back four.

I missed the match but I did wonder when I saw the lineup that Martial up top means a completely ineffective press and collective defending. But what are the options, if Rasmus can't play every minute of every game? People have even suggested McTominay, which would be completely outlandish were it not for us having to either pick Rashford or Martial up front.

I don't agree with his midfield selection, and though I'd prefer Varane in the RCB role, I can understand how he's kept faith with Maguire given he's been solid for a while and can actually stay fit. There are still loads of problem areas in the team and some are his own making, or rather, he's not addressed them or prioritised them high enough, while most are the legacy of previous managers and the club's hierarchy.

You don't play the crazy 5-0-5 high press. You adapt to the players you have or it will end up like yesterday.
 
If you believe this, then there is not really much discuss anything more.
Even disregarding the goal threat that both teams carried, the stats already prove that this United team is far more likely to concede 3 or more goals than last year’s Liverpool team. The system that Ten Hag is trying to implement is inherently flawed, that was the whole point of my original post you quoted.

I don't disagree that we've got massive issues. I don't even disagree that our issues are worse than those other clubs have faced and dealt with.

I do have an issue with people just making things up though.

Klopp's Liverpool went on a run of four consecutive defeats in 20/21, scoring just twice, and conceding 10. That same season, while not porous, they went five games without a win and scored just one goal.

Last season they went on a run of four games without a win, losing three, and conceded 9, scoring just once. Immediately after beating us 7-0 they went three games scoring and only managed one goal (in a 4-1 loss to City).

As I've said elsewhere, we've enough to criticise Ten Hag for without resorting to making shit up.
 
What is also important at Real, if you start to slack during the games Perez will tell you to feck off.

UTD are still waiting on Martial to become good player.

That fact that Ten Hag is starting Martial is just sheer madness. It is self sabotage. He wants his P45 a fat payoff and a job back at Ajax.

If Hojlund cant start 3 games in a week, put McT up there, or even Joe Hugill. Fans don’t mind if you lose and give youth a chance. If the spine of your team is Maguire, McTominay and Martial, you are going to get fired.
 
We don’t just lose we get made to look absolutely shite. It’s not the loses in themselves, it’s the manner of them. It’s the same appalling defeats over and over.
 
I don't disagree that we've got massive issues. I don't even disagree that our issues are worse than those other clubs have faced and dealt with.

I do have an issue with people just making things up though.

Klopp's Liverpool went on a run of four consecutive defeats in 20/21, scoring just twice, and conceding 10. That same season, while not porous, they went five games without a win and scored just one goal.

Last season they went on a run of four games without a win, losing three, and conceded 9, scoring just once. Immediately after beating us 7-0 they went three games scoring and only managed one goal (in a 4-1 loss to City).

As I've said elsewhere, we've enough to criticise Ten Hag for without resorting to making shit up.
Nobody is making shit up. Stop giving random examples which having nothing to do with the issue at hand.
We have conceded 3 or more goals 9 times this season, and we are not even at the halfway point, and it could have been more.
Is there a comparable example of any top 6 team, whose manager was not sacked, who was as open as ours?
 
We can’t carry on like this. There were rough times under previous managers, but are getting beaten convincingly by any half decent team. The only teams we can beat are relegation fodder or team like Chelsea who are massively inconsisten. Play against a well setup and drilled team, and we are done.

I was at the game today. Today’s loss was not down to effort or application by the players. We play with no structre or real patterns of play. Our midfield is wide open With only Amrabat covering.

The manager can’t get a tune out of this team and when teams built on a shoestring like Brighton and Bournemouth come to Old Trafford and embarrass us, there can be no excuses from the manager.
How was the crowd behaving during the game?
How's the support for ETH among the match going fans?
As any division started to be seen among match going fans?
 
We don’t just lose we get made to look absolutely shite. It’s not the loses in themselves, it’s the manner of them. It’s the same appalling defeats over and over.
Because we play suicidal football - a setup in which chances are against us. And because we are poor defensively, once we concede a goal, we need to be even more attacking, and open up even more.
 
Because we play suicidal football - a setup in which chances are against us. And because we are poor defensively, once we concede a goal, we need to be even more attacking, and open up even more.
Totally. It’s the fact we keep trying the same tactics, with the same players and formation, when it’s clearly failing makes me sad. I dislike a lot of our squad, but the manager continues to fail and make the same mistakes.
 
We don’t just lose we get made to look absolutely shite. It’s not the loses in themselves, it’s the manner of them. It’s the same appalling defeats over and over.

Aye. Seems like when we lose, we do it in epic fashion.
 
He’s a coward when it comes to taking responsibility. The only time this season he’s taken responsibility for a defeat was vs Galatasaray when it was very clearly Onana’s fault so it was a free pass for him. Every other occasion he’s blamed the mentality and character of the players.

His decision making is awful and has created more weaknesses, making us easier to beat as time goes on without signs of improvement. He has to go as soon as we get a new DOF in.
 
Nobody is making shit up. Stop giving random examples which having nothing to do with the issue at hand.
We have conceded 3 or more goals 9 times this season, and we are not even at the halfway point, and it could have been more.
Is there a comparable example of any top 6 team, whose manager was not sacked, who was as open as ours?

"As open as ours" is not the same as asking "Why don’t other ‘system’ managers such as Klopp, Pep, Arteta, Emery, Howe not face the same issue?" when they have, even if not as pronounced as us this season.

Also, for someone who wanted to "contextualise" earlier, you've not once addressed the obvious context of us getting so far into the season and still having injuries to defenders and midfielders.

We've been shit, should have done better, and have probably been worse than other teams facing this issue in the past. They've still faced the same issues though.

I also think Ten Hag should go now, so this isn't even a case of me defending him from being sacked. You can hardly blame him for not sacking himself though.
 
I’m in two minds about sacking him now or waiting until INEOS come in and see what happens in January.

His signings and his total lack of in game management have killed him. I don’t mind system managers but even Pep realised he had to change his philosophies when he moved to the PL, we all remember his first season and his struggles. Ten Hag for some reason hasn’t got the memo, it’s just more of the same every game but with worse players year on year.

If a system relies on a whole new squad, it’s not a valid system.
 
No point in sacking him now and bringing someone in just to get annihilated by Liverpool. Sack him after Liverpool.

Probably, but a more pragmatic manager might set Utd up more defensively with two at the base of midfield so we don't get curb stomped because of the gaping chasm EtH seems to want.

Trying not to go overboard ahead of time but I'm struggling to see any scenario in which Liverpool don't blitz the midfield spaces and serve up a bit of a beating.
 
I was reading about the Kane saga today and its interesting read how close he was to signing for United, untill the powers that be pulled the plug and decided funds are needed for Onana and Mount, so the original plan for 2 prolific strikers - one on Ronaldo wages at age 30, was canned.

I do believe Ten Hag was under the assumption the club sale would go through before the new 23/24 season and more funds would come so he could have his 2 strikers including Kane, Mount for a more pressing tactic, and a foot playing goakeeper wich was vital to start any new tactic.
Apparently the choice was given for either 2 strikers - Hoijland and Kane, or one striker and Onana and Mount. With Levy threatening this Kane transfer dragging out till the last minute the last drop.

The powers that be (Glazers, Murtough) decided any transfer dealing needs to be done quickly and so together with Ten Hag, decided to let the Kane dream go. They signed Hoijlund and a week later Kane went for Bayern, where he was even thinking about staying one more year at Spurs and sign a pre contract with United in january 24.

Was this all on Ten Hag? Can we blame him for making a choice for Hojland/Mount/Onana instead of Hojland/Kane and leave the rest? I think he counted on Rashford providing a lot more goals and perhaps fill that hole of a proven striker. He also wanted to build on a new philosophy, a new style of high press with backing of a football capable keeper. With De gea that wouldv been another lost year with maybe even worse results. He solved the Ronaldo problem and achived a 3rd place and fa cup with a very limited squad. And yet, we are p6 with a more negative goal difference than Everton. To me it seems even if Ten Hag has flaws, he still is delivering. Compared to say Poch and Chelsea, even Newcastle, hes not doing a bad job at all. I think the blame of not getting Kane, of putting Ten Hag for that choice, is on the Glazers.
 
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He hasn’t improved the mentality of this team at all. We’ve still got a bunch of losers who crumble when things go sour more often than not. We still look totally mentally scarred. I fully expect that to be on show when we concede first next Sunday.
 
ETH isn’t trying to implement that kind of system though. He’s said as much numerous times.

It doesn't matter how many times he says it, people are convinced he is a possession style manager because Ajax used to top the possession stats in games. To them, that means he is a possession manager.

We don’t just lose we get made to look absolutely shite. It’s not the loses in themselves, it’s the manner of them. It’s the same appalling defeats over and over.

Everytime we lose we are a laughing stock, we can never lose "well" or undeserved.
 
The budget is what it is and it's not eth fault that saudi Is probably offering our pensioners 3 times the money for less work. That said I do agree that ETH had made his share of mistakes. I wouldn't have bought mount for example

Pensioners :lol:

Varane is 30 and Casemiro is 31, they’re hardly past it.
 
Guess that's a no then.
That’s exasperation. If you’re posting on this forum I assume you read it quite a bit and you know the system has been explained a thousand times. Not liking the system is different to not recognising that there is one and I give you enough credit to assume you are in the former category.
 
Do you really think anybody here, however much blame they put on the manager, think recruitment or ownership/hierarchy, or the players are blameless?

Recruitment is the most obvious one. Not had a good full season from an RB since Valencia in 2016-18, and before that Rafael 11 seasons ago. There's been a gaping hole at RW, in theory since AdM left, in practice since Fergie retired. CM recruitment has been a shambles for over a decade and that area a massive problem in Ferguson's last two seasons. In some cases, like RW, the club and successive managers have simply refused to fill the gap and relied on players out of position, until finally spending a ton of money on a dud. At RB the hiring has been short-sighted and just poor, and at CM there's been insane amounts of money spent to buy square pegs for round holes...again and again and again.
The only positions that were held at a high standard for more than a season by the same player are LW, LB, AM, CB, one of two CM positions, and GK. Season-to-season chaos at the other CM, RB, RW, and ST.


But it is also true that, last season, EtH had a sensible formula which more-or-less catered to the player's strengths and covered their weaknesses. Casemiro and Eriksen are old, so both stay back and cover each other, with Fred coming in for extra energy if needed. Bruno likes spamming through balls so Rashford keeps making runs in behind. Shaw takes the overlap. Antony doesn't have much attacking edge but balances the flank with work rate, allowing Dalot forward. Varane and Martinez complement each other very well, and together cover everything you would want from a CB duo. Marital has occasional glimpses of form between injuries and does a decent job holding the ball and combining with Rashford. With a few obvious upgrades (a younger passer to replace Eriksen, a better RB, striker), that's a good and balanced team.

ETH, of his own volition, has ripped up the script. Casemiro is old and slow? Too bad! Lone DM is what he must be. Eriksen and Mount are injured? The great McTominay will play as one of two number 10s. Varane is relatively fast and allows a high line which makes sense with the way that "midfield" is set up? No, Maguire and a deep block is the way forward, and yes, it's 5 attackers in a 4-1-4-1 and a CB most comfortable in deep back line, that makes sense! A teenager who gets outmuscled by a breeze is at RW? The RB will make suicidal overlapping runs and leave a crater-sized hole at the back.
It's nonsense. There's no clear first XI. There's an insane plan of brainless attacking that must be obeyed. More contempt for possession than Mourinho. There are obvious and massive form issues (Rashford, Casemiro, Varane, Martial) but the pre-season was bad, the start of the season was very rough, everything since has been awful, yet the plan is constant.

The only comparison I can make with the other managers is Jose's last season. A blueprint that worked decently in the previous season ripped apart, feuds with half the squad, inexplicable lineups, square pegs in round holes, and stubbornness.

If the manager is making decisions that look sane but don't get results, I think most fans will be more tolerant. But if there's stubbornness about insanity, at least for me, that's a red flag.
I think Moyes mostly picked the XIs I would have picked. But clearly something had broken.
LvG's insistence on Rooney at 10 was awful, but the rest of the team usually made sense, all the way to the end. He had by far the best exit of any of these.
Jose went out benching the half of the squad that could actually play football, subbing them on, sometimes with good results (Newcastle and Juve), but picking another fight and repeating it for the next game. Bitter dour end.
Ole picked mostly sensible teams with the impossible constraint of having to fit Ronaldo and Bruno in a squad without a good DM or CBs.
Genuinely no memory of Ralf.

And continues to stick to this 5-0-5 formation (I know it's not 5-0-5, feels like it)....unbelievable tactics/coaching/set up.
 
That’s exasperation. If you’re posting on this forum I assume you read it quite a bit and you know the system has been explained a thousand times. Not liking the system is different to not recognising that there is one and I give you enough credit to assume you are in the former category.

It's a load of crap though isn't it? The system he used at Ajax isn't the system he's using here. The system he used last season isn't the one we're seeing here. He's only ever shown true success with one system, the one he used at Ajax. The "players that are wrong", then why the feck are we changing to a different system if it doesn't fit the players despite him saying he's chosen this system because it does fit the players. Revolutionary idea, but how about you decide a system and then stick with it and recruit players for that system. I know it's a crazy concept, but it might just work.
 
Nobody is making shit up. Stop giving random examples which having nothing to do with the issue at hand.
We have conceded 3 or more goals 9 times this season, and we are not even at the halfway point, and it could have been more.
Is there a comparable example of any top 6 team, whose manager was not sacked, who was as open as ours?
That's his posting style to a tee. Walls of texts of unrelated or loosely related examples followed by accusations of goalpost moving ad nauseam. You may be called a liar soon. Good luck with that.
 
I find the narrative that no manager would succeed here is absolutely bollocks. He's been given the power of rebuilding the squad and has absolutely fecked it up by spending fortunes on former players who simply are nowhere near good enough.

No other manager in world football is spending that sort of money on the likes of Antony that's simply on him.
 
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