Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Big Ben Foster]

That would be true for most teams, no?

Yes, although most clubs correctly realize the manager is an employee who will only be around for 2-3 years, and therefore to enable continuity, don't leave all transfer, recruitment, and squad building decisions up to the manager.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

It's a thought-terminating cliche to absolve the manager of any and all failures. Even though by definition, managing the players is his job.

I'm not siding by ETH either. He has failed in certain aspects. But you can't ignore what player power is doing to this club.

 

[RuudTom83]

The players should have a Bring Your Medals to Work Day* just to remind the manager how great they are.

Schedule in a 3 minute meeting, should be plenty of time to show off their haul.

*Won in a United shirt.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I'm not siding by ETH either. He has failed in certain aspects. But you can't ignore what player power is doing to this club.

Of course. In fact I made it very clear when ETH joined that it would be a huge mistake if he went down the "clean slate" route that his predecessors chose. Sure enough...

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Hopefully Ratcliffe & Co come in and publicy back him, and not some old flannel either.

In the main we have a rotten bunch of players, so happy for them to be unhappy, and for the new regime to rip it all up once again.

 

[Leftback99]

Yeah but come on mate; these are new minority owners looking to make a good impression. Would seem odd to me to give him until May, given he's under fire on-and-off the pitch, just to save literal pennies. As I said, these are my thoughts.

I also imagine if we do indeed go ahead with a new CEO, we would have some indication where his future lies before May, if he does stay on.

Agree but a few million could be the difference between us breaking FFP from what I've read.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Agree but a few million could be the difference between us breaking FFP from what I've read.

I don't really follow FFP stuff, so maybe yeah.

 

[DJ_21]

Reports coming out saying he’s lost the support of halve the dressing room. Game over if that’s the case.

 

[fergies coat]

Eh, he's got a point, though. These are not the same players. And your manner of arguing stinks, btw.

We get outrun by everytime we play against. Lack of effort is down to the players. They have zero desire.

 

[ti vu]

The “many of the players are new” is not a great argument.
Mang people don’t know how organisational culture works. It’s infectious, either good or bad. New players/members of a team imbibe it.

But why the bad influence is still strong, when most of them have been eliminated. It's not like Varane, Casimero, Eriksen with their last ambition in there career come here and listen to Martial Rashford advice (if you place the blame on these players); or ETH former players all suddenly grow detached to him and embrace the rotten culture.

The way some people put it, it's like a pandemic that you need to wholesale everyone, before rebuilding from the very first new players. That's never the case of a sport team, even if culture reset is carried out.

 

[Dve]

Because they inherit the culture that has been flowing through the club ever since Fergie retired. Even Matic came out with something on how unprofessional the culture is.

This is the common denominator.

That's a fair assessment. It really is possible to change the players, but not the culture, in the what that the new ones coming in - one by one - adopts to the culture, then contribute to passing in on to the next one. In my local store, e.g. they are terrible at managing the queue at the checkout, and they have been so as longs as I've been using that store, which is roughly 20 years. New faces coming in, same culture.

Edit: Not fully convinced the majority of the players we have now are being unprofessional, though.

 

[Fortitude]

This nebulous statement that the players have downed tools. Apart from Rashford and Martial, who has downed tools?

 

[Mickeza]

This nebulous statement that the players have downed tools. Apart from Rashford and Martial, who has downed tools?

Not even convinced martial has downed tools. He hasn’t been able to sprint for two years - the fact we’ve kept him around and still play him is on us.

 

[Laurencio]

Are we supposed to believe every leak we read that absolves players who've been poor under multiple managers now? There's a distinct pattern here.

Who gets absolved here though? The manager, for some reason, is letting Rashford not track back - either by design or by wilful ignorance. There's no consequence for not working hard defensively. We'll probably see Rashford play against Chelsea. Players are doing silly things like stopping their tracking back in midfield every single game, and the manager does nothing about it. Either it's part of their instructions, which is his fault, or it's allowing players to ignore instructions with no consequences, which is also his fault.

He doesn't HAVE to play these players if they are letting him down. He has alternatives that will work hard, even if they aren't as talented. He's sticking with them because they have the most talent. Many of them should have been replaced ages ago, but the least he could do is make it clear that if you don't perform you don't play. If Rashford isn't following instructions, sit him out. If Martial isn't even trying, replace him with a kid. We might not become a better team for it, but accepting poor performances just feeds player power. I wil conceede that the club has failed him in terms of recruitment, we should have replaced a lot of these players and given him quality alternatives to play. Unfortunately we messed that up.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

This nebulous statement that the players have downed tools. Apart from Rashford and Martial, who has downed tools?

Nobody. The squad isn't fit for purpose and the tactical setup is bobbins. More running isn't going to change that.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Reports coming out saying he’s lost the support of halve the dressing room. Game over if that’s the case.

Why is it game over? These players are paid to do a job, loads of people hate their boss but can still put in a good days work.

They could just grow up, or if not then at least remain professional before they find employment elsewhere.

 

[bosnian_red]

Just feels a bit like when the going gets tough the tough get going..

You either back his decisions and disciplined style or you wobble and side with the players when the results turn sour.

Do we need a reset and change in culture? Like Arsenal when they moved on Ozil/Ramsey/Auba and stuck with Arteta?

Interested to know what people’s thoughts are.

Think you always have to assess what is going on, why is it going on, what are the problems on display, what are mitigating factors. If the problems are tactical, how long has the manager been here, how long have they been trying to implement the system? Are they one off issues, or repeated issues that aren't being addressed? Is there any hope that it will be addressed?

Last season we could have mitigating reasons or excuses for our garbage away form to top half teams. Now it's been 18 months where we are winless away to top 12 clubs, and get thoroughly dismantled pretty much every time. It's not like the Newcastle game was players downing tools. Last year we were full of confidence and belief and got dismantled in the same fashion at City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Newcastle (among others who thoroughly outplayed us). This is just a repeated pattern, and a sign that his system is not working. And 18 months is more than enough time to adapt and change it for the next game. Eventually he's going to need to put in a performance away to a top 12 team. Next chance at that is Liverpool and West Ham. Good luck with that.

 

[Fortitude]

Not even convinced martial has downed tools. He hasn’t been able to sprint for two years - the fact we’ve kept him around and still play him is on us.

Me neither; by now, this is what he is, for better or worse, but the narrative now being pushed is a collective downing of tools and I'm sure he'll be the first or second name pulled from the hat as having done so.

 

[KGBhoy]

Send the half that don't support him to the reserves. Play the kids. We've been here before.
He might not be perfect, but until we get the players who want to play for the club, I don't trust they will do the job with anyone else.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Yes, although most clubs correctly realize the manager is an employee who will only be around for 2-3 years, and therefore to enable continuity, don't leave all transfer, recruitment, and squad building decisions up to the manager.

But it's not applicable to any successful clubs whatsoever. Has there been a single club in modern times that has had success with a random group of players that were handpicked by 4 or 5 random managers across multiple ereas? Leicester City? But that was obviously some weird anomaly.

Having players from multiple managerial eras is fine if the club have a sporting structure in place and a clear blueprint. That way, the sporting side of the club are picking players and managers to play a certain style. If x manager doesn't work, then bye, another comes in that can seamlessly transition into the club/playstyle.

The squad we have really is an anomaly for a so called 'top side'.

 

[Shinjch]

Ha!

Haha perfect. Like clockwork.

 

[Robbie Boy]

This nebulous statement that the players have downed tools. Apart from Rashford and Martial, who has downed tools?

Martial is just wank tbf.

 

[Member 117152]

Yes, although most clubs correctly realize the manager is an employee who will only be around for 2-3 years, and therefore to enable continuity, don't leave all transfer, recruitment, and squad building decisions up to the manager.

This. Truth be told I haven’t been a fan of ETH’s football at any single point during his United reign. Even last season we were a scrappy side.

He seems like a good man who would do a great job at other perhaps smaller clubs but he’s not our guy. That much is evident.

 

[AshRK]

You cannot rate the manager but how can people still give excuse to the players.

 

[crossy1686]

You cannot rate the manager but how can people still give excuse to the players.

A lot of them aren’t good enough to start for United but who are ‘these players’?

The only consistent starters in Ten Hags team that have played under previous managers are Rashford, Shaw, Varane, Bruno and Dalot. Are we saying ‘these players’ have turned everyone, including the players he’s signed, against him?

 

[Robbie Boy]

A lot of them aren’t good enough to start for United but who are ‘these players’?

The only consistent starters in Ten Hags team that have played under previous managers are Rashford, Shaw, Varane, Bruno and Dalot. Are we saying ‘these players’ have turned everyone, including the players he’s signed, against him?

Forget about this leaks thing for a minute.

Surely you agree that this squad is just a random collection of individuals handpicked by random managers that needs an overhaul?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

But it's not applicable to any successful clubs whatsoever. Has there been a single club in modern times that has had success with a random group of players that were handpicked by 4 or 5 random managers across multiple ereas? Leicester City? But that was obviously some weird anomaly.

Having players from multiple managerial eras is fine if the club have a sporting structure in place and a clear blueprint. That way, the sporting side of the club are picking players and managers to play a certain style. If x manager doesn't work, then bye, another comes in that can seamlessly transition into the club/playstyle.

The squad we have really is an anomaly for a so called 'top side'.

Right, that second paragraph is more or less what I was trying to get at with my post.

 

[The Irish Connection]

Just thinking, why don’t we go and get Postecoglu? He’s shown that he can get a team playing his way quickly and with limited funds.
Spurs would rinse us of course. He mightn’t want to either.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Right, that second paragraph is more or less what I was trying to get at with my post.

Apologies, I was agreeing with you. I just wanted to emphasise the point, as the other poster seemed surprised that a random group of players aquired by random managers was an anomaly for a big club.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Forget about this leaks thing for a minute.

Surely you agree that this squad is just a random collection of individuals handpicked by random managers that needs an overhaul?

And some want to continue this cycle by changing managers again. Until we have 30 different players from 30 different managers. Ok that's a bit much but you get what i'm saying.

 

[crossy1686]

Forget about this leaks thing for a minute.

Surely you agree that this squad is just a random collection of individuals handpicked by random managers that needs an overhaul?

Absolutely, there’s a need for improvement across the board which is why it makes no fecking sense to chase Mount all summer and blow our budget on him but that’s another story.

The point I’m trying to make is any manager who doesn’t have the luxury of spending £400m in two seasons would have made it work to a degree with the players he had at his disposal. Ten Hag has made no effort to get a tune out of the likes of McTomminay and Maguire until he’s had to rely on them heavily due to injuries. Before that point they were just thrown into a system that they couldn’t play in and left to fail. Now I’m not saying build the team around these guys but I’m saying at least make them feel like they have something to offer until you can sell them in the summer. They’re not going to die out there for a manager that has been trying to sell them for 18 months solid.

 

[Robbie Boy]

And some want to continue this cycle by changing managers again. Until we have 30 different players from 30 different managers. Ok that's a bit much but you get what i'm saying.

I'm really not sure many have the stomach to see this squad totally overhauled tbh.

 

[Berbaclass]

 

[Robbie Boy]

Absolutely, there’s a need for improvement across the board which is why it makes no fecking sense to chase Mount all summer and blow our budget on him but that’s another story.

The point I’m trying to make is any manager who doesn’t have the luxury of spending £400m in two seasons would have made it work to a degree with the players he had at his disposal. Ten Hag has made no effort to get a tune out of the likes of McTomminay and Maguire until he’s had to rely on them heavily due to injuries. Before that point they were just thrown into a system that they couldn’t play in and left to fail. Now I’m not saying build the team around these guys but I’m saying at least make them feel like they have something to offer until you can sell them in the summer. They’re not going to die out there for a manager that has been trying to sell them for 18 months solid.

I agree that ETH hasn't shown enough with what he has at his disposal and he's spent poorly. But, I firmly believe it's time to get rid of a large portion of these players that have now been failures under multiple managers.

This likely won't be with ETH, but whoever comes in will need patience. Not blind patience though, obviously. We also need a proper sporting structure in place so that no manager ever again is allowed to handpick 400m worth of players. There honestly aren't very many I would keep, if I had my way.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I'm really not sure many have the stomach to see this squad totally overhauled tbh.

I agree. They'll rage quit.

 

[Laurencio]

Just thinking, why don’t we go and get Postecoglu? He’s shown that he can get a team playing his way quickly and with limited funds.
Spurs would rinse us of course. He mightn’t want to either.

Spurs has a much more cohesive team than we do. It made "sense", ours does not. We need a great man manager and someone who is tactically pragmatic enough to slowly adapt us towards where we need to go while we sell players we don't need and recruit players who can benefit us. Postecoglu seems far too gung ho for that. I think we need a transition manager for the next 3-4 years. Let a DOF sort this mess out while someone experienced with big egos comes in and stabilises us. Personally I'd want Ancelotti. After he's helped fixed the squad, look to see if it makes sense to go for a more "exciting" young manager like say Nagelsman.

Maybe ETH can be the man to head that rebuild, but it's looking increasingly unlikely that he has the requisite skillset for it.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Let's burn Mitten at the stake!

 

[The Irish Connection]

Spurs has a much more cohesive team than we do. It made "sense", ours does not. We need a great man manager and someone who is tactically pragmatic enough to slowly adapt us towards where we need to go while we sell players we don't need and recruit players who can benefit us. Postecoglu seems far too gung ho for that. I think we need a transition manager for the next 3-4 years. Let a DOF sort this mess out while someone experienced with big egos comes in and stabilises us. Personally I'd want Ancelotti. After he's helped fixed the squad, and after that look to see if it makes sense to go for a more "exciting" young manager like say Nagelsman.

Maybe ETH can be the man to head that rebuild, but it's looking increasingly unlikely that he has the requisite skillset for it.

I wouldn’t mind Ancelotti either. But the recruitment structure is essential, as are about 5 or 6 top players.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

And some want to continue this cycle by changing managers again. Until we have 30 different players from 30 different managers. Ok that's a bit much but you get what i'm saying.

Not at all. Many of us have been calling for a proper structure for years, where squad building isn't left up to the manager, and where the manager is just another replaceable cog in the system.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Not at all. Many of us have been calling for a proper structure for years, where squad building isn't left up to the manager, and where the manager is just another replaceable cog in the system.

There's plenty who will hammer the next man even if this plan it's implemented. It's just what happens around here.