I largely remember the consensus being "we just won the league, we've got an experienced squad, he's got Fergie's blessing", even if he wasn't most people's first choice. It didn't feel like an inappropriate choice at the time, not to me and my family and friends anyway.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
I was gutted when Moyes was appointed.
Definitely, but a seamless transition from Fergie to whoever replaced him was always a big ask. It wasn't helped by Woodward also coming in to replace Gill.
SAF pretty much shouldered a lot of DoF responsibilities. He pretty much control our recruitment because he's that good. And yes his influence that got Moyes the job, who otherwise wouldn't be considered by other top clubs. So he kinda played the DoF at the end there too. But picking manager seems to be his weakness
Our expectations are so low, and we've got so accustomed to mediocrity that should our manager lead us to the title once in the next 10 years, there will indeed be whispers about him being as great as Sir Alex. What is regrettable is that I now have to accept that manager won't be Ten Hag.
Apart from Moyes, Ancelotti, and Pep, which other manager did Fergie try and get in? Because that doesn't seem like an horrific roster there, albeit Moyes is obviously the lemon (but was 3rd choice after Pep and Carlo). Seems like an odd thing to criticise him for - as amazing as he was, he couldn't force grown men to manage United if they didn't want it.
What would us not accepting mediocrity look like, out of interest? I'm assuming something along the lines of sacking ten Hag right now? Getting in Zidane or Conte? I'm curious.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/17713400.amp
Aston Villa sacked him at the end of that season after barely escaped relegation. Aston Villa used to be higher up the table before this period. SAF seems to have a blind spot for some managers he shares a good personal relationship.
If we take LVG and Mourinho implication by face value, Giggs was being groomed to become our next manager at one time.
Last edited:
I voted in favour of keeping Ten Hag in that poll. The best scenario for me would be to keep him to undermine the power that some players have, get rid of them in a few years, then get - preferably - a better coach. Only not a too old coach nor a flavour of the month candidate.
If I had to dream, I would like the fans to mobilise against the Glazers (even now) and get rid of them through severe boycotting. Of course, that will not happen.
When I read such quotes by SAF about giving a manager time and trust I do wonder if he actually underestimates the job he did.
He became a success after being given this, but not everybody can and will (and has to) do what he did when he came to United.
And it wouldn't be surprising, as genius people often struggle to realize that other people just can't do what comes naturally to them.
Agree. IMO I believe SAF doesn't know the extend of his own genius. Almost all of his former players seem to have narrow minded of management which I suspect due to how easy SAF could make difficult things look in the beholder eyes. Same way you can say Messi's feints look simple, but nobody can replicate to that level however long they try to study him and train.
One of SAF biggest strength is the ability to adapt. Easy said than done especially when one getting older and losing that youthful energy/hunger.
He was likely asked on the spot what he thinks of the situation at Villa - do managers typically give an honest appraisal of their peers, especially when their jobs are on the line? I think saying "give McLeish some time" was the most normal answer he could have given. He definitely did have a blind spot for players he'd managed and seen grow up under him, to be fair.
That was 2022/2023 Ten Hag. 2023/2024 Ten Hag is a busted flush
Yeh that’s how I felt, it did seem a bit of a left field appointment.
But he was destined to fail for so many reasons. On reflection, that should have been Jose’s job (as Pep was never coming to this sh.*t show) immediately. We needed somebody with the gravitas and ego to fill the big man’s boots.
It just feels like since then the club has setup every single manager to fail. Some people think spending money is all a club has to do to “support” a manager but there is not one successful club at the top tier of sport running things like United.
There was a lot of blind faith in Fergie about this, when it was blidingly obvious he would fail. Fergie should never have been involved in his succession and Moyes was always a terrible choice. Never had won a trophy (first one was last year), football was mixed at best with a focus on not losing, and was well known for dithering over transfers. First of many appalling managerial appointments. West Ham his level and he's a solid manager. Nothing more
I agree with most of that fella. I'm still open to ten Hag proving he can be the one to get us competing but who knows. He's got the rest of the season to convince Ratcliffe and co.
Watching spurs last night, see there is a definitive philosophy come hell or high water. Even down to 9 men they were on the half way line squeezing the space pressing Chelsea and when they got forward they got forward in numbers 3/4/5 players getting into the box with only 9 men on the pitch! That bravery that's what it's all about. Yes they lost in the end, but they created chances even with 9 men, if they took them they may have got something out of the game. And we can see with there results so far this season it's working even without a clutch of world class players.
After 18 months of ETH, what is our philosophy? What is our definitive style? What is it we are trying to achieve, how do we score our goals? How do we make chances? Are we direct, do we play out? Play possesion football? Who knows? Because I certainly don't.
It feels like we do everything so pragmatically that we end up doing nothing. And perhaps that is the issue like a lot of Dutch coaches before him is ETH overcomplicating it and being overly pragmatic? And that is relaying into the confused muddled playing style that we currently see?
After 18 months of ETH, what is our philosophy? What is our definitive style? What is it we are trying to achieve, how do we score our goals? How do we make chances? Are we direct, do we play out? Play possesion football? Who knows? Because I certainly don't.
It feels like we do everything so pragmatically that we end up doing nothing. And perhaps that is the issue like a lot of Dutch coaches before him is ETH overcomplicating it and being overly pragmatic? And that is relaying into the confused muddled playing style that we currently see?
Well, nice to meet likeminded fans.
A few more good results and the media lead narrative will die down...I've learnt to just ignore 99% of the crap you see on socials and in the media.
He also gave his backing to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer after Liverpool demolished us 5:0. Guess who was sacked a month later?
But of course, don't let me get into the way of the narrative.
I also apologise for getting into the way of the other narrative - ETH is the worst coach we ever had, he is a fraud, no credit to his name whatsoever, the only reason he achieved minor things as trophy, finals, top 3, knocking out Barcelona, fastest ever 50 victories as United manager, is because Rashford carried him.
That's the quality stuff!
Last edited:
good of him to have the stones to finally drop Marcus from the match squad....he's been in shit form and needed a wake up call and a chance to step away to figure out what the feck ever is wrong with him
Fair
I shudder to think what the scoreline would be if we ever went down to 9 men
I have been very critical of ETH, his signings, his tactics everything. What we have seen on the pitch this season and some of last season has been dire. However, I do think we should give him some time. He is very stubborn and that could potentially be his downfall because he has a lot of learning to still do. If he keeps evolving, admits mistakes quickly and sticks to his standards in terms of discipline, I think he could do well here.
Yeah, that is odd, isn't it. I had expected Ten Hag to be more dogmatic stylistically, and accept the growing pains that come with it: some good games, some total trashings - but ultimately an upward trajectory. And I suppose you could say that was happening for the first half of last season. But since then, he seems to have thought that building a plan while flying it can also mean reverting to a different plane model for an extended spell along the way. Presumably that's all in order to avoid those trashings (but: Liverpool away) and get good results in the meantime (for which in turn you could point to the League Cup win, FA Cup final, and 3rd place league finish) - but United are now stylistically quite far off what you'd hope Ten Hag's end goal is like. (I.e., something proactive, energetic, and attacking; not the current style of play.)
So yeah, it's a little puzzling. But let's see what happens when Shaw and Martinez return.
Last edited:
Questions over ETH’s management are entirely appropriate, but do is recalling the ridiculous gale force headwinds he’s had to deal with since his arrival.
He's also had unprecedented free reign on signings. He has to own that and live or die by that
No he doesn't. United should take any excessive authority over transfers that he may still hold away from him (like at any reasonably run top club) and evaluate him on his performance in the job he is actually responsible for (or should be): being the coach of the men's first team.
Of course, I don't think I have seen anyone clearly define (based on reliable information) how much authority Ten Hag really has over transfers, but anyway.
This where I am to be honest. I hope he can muddle through until those players players return and then we'll see if things improve. I've been a bit skeptical that their loss has completely ruined the way we play as we didn't exactly score a lot of goals last year and I just don't think our wasteful attack will improve that much by them coming back, but they are a loss there's no doubt about it.
He has to win tomorrow though. I expect Bayern to beat Galatasaray and if that happens we're not in a bad position to finish second in the group.
I'm not sure much has changed from last season to this. Last season to a certain extent because of the De Gea issue I could understand the pragmatism. But this season I'm not sure there is any excuses for what we are currently seeing.
Shaw and Martinez are big losses but not to the extent if not being to implement a better style. Injuries are part and parcel and no matter who plays we should be able to see a better style or at least an attempt at more proactive brave attacking football.
But looks like we are in a for another season of pragmatic football, certainly if ETH keeps his job and the results pick up.
I'd be happy as Larry if they could do the same at United but there's a huge difference between running a small outfit like Nice and United. Wannabee football people might be a better handle.
I think we have to beat Copenhagan and Galatassary. A draw with Gala means we have to beat Bayern in our last game
Could be my meds, but I cant help but feel if we can get through this rough patch, get all our players back to full fitness and build up some momentum we could have a really interesting second half of season. We actually have the kind of quality that can progress far in a cup and even win it if the conditions are right.
Look at the signings, as well as the leaked pursuits - apply the most basic pattern recognition and probability. For whatever combination of reasons, good and ill, and whatever the club officially briefs, he's been leading on signings since Summer 2022....
This much is obvious. What are the odds on four of his signings having been at Ajax and another 4 or 5 playing against him in the Dutch league. If we are really to believe thats just luck he should put some money on the lottery
????
The transfer decision making process at United has been well documented. Ten Hag has both nomination and veto power for any incoming transfer. Scouts, Murtagh etc can nominate as well, but with the veto power ETH has, he has agreed to EVERY player brought in.
The narrative that he’s not responsible for the transfers, or at least partially responsible for the transfer decisions is completely false.
Yeah, it seems that way. And of course the manager should be able to propose players, and it makes sense if he has veto power as well (maybe with some conditions attached, but anyway). But others should have veto power as well: if the coach proposes someone ('I want player A for reasons x-y-z') and the analytics team thinks it's poorly argued ('that player doesn't strongly exhibit those qualities, but here are players B, C, and D, which do and are attainable'), then whoever else is in the decision-making group should be able to tell the coach this ('player A is off the table, but here are some other options we can discuss').
If that's not the situation right now, then that should change. If Ten Hag doesn't want that, then I would agree that it's probably a good idea to look for another coach, both because this situation shouldn't continue and because Ten Hag obviously isn't great at having that transfer role. But if Ten Hag is happy to function in that more limited role (insofar as it isn't already the situation in reality), then I don't think any of the transfer issues from the past two windows should reflect badly on his role as a coach - cause they won't matter going forward.
I'm looking at it with an optimistic view that Bayern would already have qualification sorted and would play a second string side at OT in the final group game where we would play our best side and have the crowd right behind us. Win tomorrow and avoid defeat the penultimate game and I think we have a good chance.
I agree with this, assuming there is enough organizational support / competence to actually nominate good prospects. I don’t think we’ve seen that, frankly. Neither Arnold nor Murtagh inspire much confidence in even building a world class scouting, DoF, technical director or academy.
Watching the Beckham documentary, I was blown away how much Sir Alex was involved in bringing in youth players and building the academy. Really incredible and further adds to his genius.
I do think the “hey, we gave Sir Alex 4 years to right the ship, we should give Ten Hag the same” argument is pretty weak. Sir Alex was a force of nature and demanded that level of control and he was good at it. We’re talking the greatest manager of all time. The club was in piss poor shape and it seems to me SAF was able to turn it around through sheer will. I’m not sure that is even possible for one man to do in this era. There is so much number crunching and video data, it requires an army, not a single general.
In other words, Ten Hag should be focusing on 1st team and as such the club building has to be done by others. If he does that, wouldn’t he be able to get results more quickly?
The Antony signing was horrendous, but every manager botches a few acquisitions.
I'm sure this has been discussed extensively before but let's do a quick rundown with a grade for each:
Antony, a straight F. Others may give a D but for me it's a straight F of the highest order on par with the signing of Sanchez.
Martinez, a straight A. Sure, he's been out for a while with a broken foot bone but you can't pin that on the manager.
Malacia, a gentlemen's B. A decent backup for Shaw no one should have a problem with, but he's no United legend in the making.
Casemiro, an A-. Sure, he's been meh this season but he was outstanding last season that was only blighted by dubious red cards.
Onana, a B for me. I didn't support this signing as the keeper was the least of our problems but here he is and after a shaky start he's settled into the job.
Mount, a B for me. The rationale for this signing never made sense to me other than as a replacement for Bruno.
Hojlund, a B for me. One for the future and I do worry that we're putting too much pressure on him, but so far he's looked decent.
It seems like I'm missing someone but I just can't put my finger on who it may be. Of the 7 names above, the only one no one can deny has been a disaster has been Antony.
- Status