Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Last season was alright, but ETH do not seem to be a good man manager. Sancho he falls out with and he can't get him back playing for us.

A Sancho in form could be massive for us and now we need to play Bruno and Rashford every game due to the lack of wingers and even Bruno on the wing.

Injuries a big reason why we struggle though, but yeah our fitness team and stuff are always bad I think. We need Martinez and Shaw back to get a strong def.

Big game tonight we need to beat a big team even in the cup. Hopefully Newcastle rest some key players like Wilson and Trippier.

Also what is the plan with our transfers like Mount was such an odd buy.
 
Lose tonight and it will be hard to come back for him. We are in a dreadful state currently. It is so eerily similar to the previous managers in their last days.
 
OrcaFat said:
Okay I probably didn’t make it clear. Some posters have said that all the elite teams sack “underperforming” managers, list out the top clubs, say we should do the same, and, by implication, are putting us in that group.

Once, about 12 years ago, we were in that group. True, nobody thinks we are as good as those teams at the moment and it follows that what works for them won’t necessarily work for us. This is very relevant because our goal is to get back to that level, not to get a new manager bounce every couple of years.
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But it's not just elite clubs, it's how most top division clubs at least operate. You sack the underperforming manager and get another one in. Just like you sell underperforming players and try to get someone who will fit in better. You don't just shrug and do nothing no matter how they're playing. For all the praise City get for their structure, they've shipped lots of players out until they found the right ones.

I've never seen any other fanbase this obsessed with finding "the one" manager. I'm fine with us giving ETH more time but some milestones have to be reached. Nobody can convince me that playing this badly is "part of the plan".
 
Rista said:
But it's not just elite clubs, it's how most top division clubs at least operate. You sack the underperforming manager and get another one in. Just like you sell underperforming players and try to get someone who will fit in better. You don't just shrug and do nothing no matter how they're playing. For all the praise City get for their structure, they've shipped lots of players out until they found the right ones.

I've never seen any other fanbase this obsessed with finding "the one" manager. I'm fine with us giving ETH more time but some milestones have to be reached. Nobody can convince me that playing this badly is "part of the plan".
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City being able to ship out their players who aren't working out is a plus for their structure though. The powers that be at United seem incapable of getting rid of the deadwood for proper money. Leaving players that know they aren't overly wanted to stink up the place even more.
 
Shinjch said:
City being able to ship out their players who aren't working out is plus for their structure though. The powers that be at United seem incapable of getting rid of the deadwood for proper money. Leaving players that know they aren't overly wanted to stink up the place even more.
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That's because we hold on for too long, players should be given 2 season max to delivery, maybe just 1 if they have been really poor
 
Lee565 said:
That's because we hold on for too long, players should be given 2 season max to delivery, maybe just 1 if they have been really poor
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Agreed, but those at the club have shown themselves incapable of managing outgoings properly for a very long time now.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
Last season was alright, but ETH do not seem to be a good man manager. Sancho he falls out with and he can't get him back playing for us.

A Sancho in form could be massive for us and now we need to play Bruno and Rashford every game due to the lack of wingers and even Bruno on the wing.

Injuries a big reason why we struggle though, but yeah our fitness team and stuff are always bad I think. We need Martinez and Shaw back to get a strong def.

Big game tonight we need to beat a big team even in the cup. Hopefully Newcastle rest some key players like Wilson and Trippier.

Also what is the plan with our transfers like Mount was such an odd buy.
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We never had a Sancho in form, he's a fraud.
 
I am fully ETHout and I have been since the Sheffield game. But if Rashford and Bruno start this match then I won't bother watching another United game until he is sacked (like i did when LVG was trotting the "my captain must always play" line)
 
Lee565 said:
That's because we hold on for too long, players should be given 2 season max to delivery, maybe just 1 if they have been really poor
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Exactly!!! It's why I hate what we did with players like Van derBeek and Sancho. These players were never going to make it here and it was obvious pretty early. Chelsea would cut their losses before these players lost further value.
 
VP89 said:
I'm guessing he doesn't see some big brand players as flexible enough to be able to play that system. Bruno and Rashford spring to mind.

Or, he believes that style is a more surer way to success in this league.
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I don't think any new manager can come in at any big club and pick a fight with star players (by benching them) before he has the unshaking faith of the leadership that he knows what he is doing. Firstly, because he has to give those star players a chance and try to make them adapt to the new style of play. Secondly because that faith is never given a priori, at signing time. Fergie could get rid of the Beckhams, Van Nisterlrooys, Keanes etc. because he had proven himself again and again and no one doubted him. You can't do that as a newcomer. First, you establish yourself and get some results and momentum. Then you sign players who can fit your system better than your stars, then you gradually replace them and hopefully the results are good enough so the fans and directors back you up.

So that said, I actually don't mind Ten Hag switching his style at the beginning of last season after the early batterings. Even though I do assign some blame for him not being adequately prepared for the start of last season. At least he did the pragmatic thing for a new manager only 4-5 games in, with things not working. The problem is that 18 months later, we expected different things. He got to 2 finals last season and won a trophy, he bought himself some time.

If after the first season he felt that Rashford and Bruno could not adapt to position-based football, then he needed to get his transfers right so that he could play the way he wanted. If Antony had worked out then he wouldn't need to play Bruno at RW. If Mount had worked out fine, he could bench Bruno altogether and play Mount #10 with Antony RW. If maybe he had managed Sancho better or prioritised a LW signing, he wouldn't rely on Rashford for LW. But he's clearly given up on trying to make us play the style of football he employed at Ajax, and he verbally confirmed this. His signings however have largely been a failure, so he relies on Bruno and Rashford more than ever. To the point they never get subbed off even when playing badly. And since his new signings don't fit with the way we're playing now, he's benching his signings and playing horrible football while also failing to get results.

He stabilised the team last year but he has failed to evolve it and now we're regressing hard. And that's either because his signings failed or because his coaching failed or because he thought this direct style could get him further that it is... or likely a mix of all.
 
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Rista said:
But it's not just elite clubs, it's how most top division clubs at least operate. You sack the underperforming manager and get another one in. Just like you sell underperforming players and try to get someone who will fit in better. You don't just shrug and do nothing no matter how they're playing. For all the praise City get for their structure, they've shipped lots of players out until they found the right ones.

I've never seen any other fanbase this obsessed with finding "the one" manager. I'm fine with us giving ETH more time but some milestones have to be reached. Nobody can convince me that playing this badly is "part of the plan".
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I don’t disagree that there must be progress but the question is how to measure that. I wouldn’t rush to assess progress when we are halfway through a rebuild and a redesign of our play.

Other clubs do sack “underperforming” managers, of course, but they can’t be used as a model for what Utd should do. Just generally, with most club’s, adequate performance looks different to what is required at Utd. It wasn’t enough for many of our fans that we won a trophy, reached another final and got 3rd in the league.

The best thing might be to sack the manager but you only have to look at where that policy has landed us to know that it’s a long shot. The thing we haven’t done is stick with a manager through the rough times and see a rebuild through to the end.

We probably had that in mind when we appointed EtH. There was a fairly convincing majority view that he was the best available candidate at the time. So, no, EtH doesn’t have to be the “one” but he is in situ and was thought to be a good choice for the task at hand. The task is to get us competing with Madrid et al and challenging for the league every single year. It’s not the work of a season and a bit. It just isn’t.

It’s a common reaction to call for a guy’s head when it’s not going well but let’s remember why we appointed him, the state we were in when we appointed him, and keep in mind the low probability of sustained improvement if we were to bring yet another manager in and regard him the same way.
 
Pscholes18 said:
Someone who understands tactics explain why he can't play like Ajax here??
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I don't understand much but based on my limited knowledge our players are used to direct football. We lack ball playing and ball carrier types. Players who are good at running with the ball and passing. And probably football brain.
 
Rojofiam said:
It was a loan deal, so you should just let this Falcao example go, it's a wrong one
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I mentioned over 10 players, not sure how one makes much of a difference. I didn’t make much of Falcao either, you’d swear I’ve been banging on about him. :lol:
 
Lee565 said:
That's because we hold on for too long, players should be given 2 season max to delivery, maybe just 1 if they have been really poor
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What if it’s genuinely the managers that aren’t doing enough to get something out of them or setting the systems up wrong? We have many players who leave us and go on to do decent elsewhere.
 
Excited by the team he’s picked tonight, plenty of changes and happy to see Garnacho and Hannibal with Mount. I’d have liked to see Mainoo but he played last night I think.
 
Lee565 said:
That's because we hold on for too long, players should be given 2 season max to delivery, maybe just 1 if they have been really poor
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Martial is in year 9 and the club is considering extending his contract. Says it all really.
 
MadMike said:
I don't think any new manager can come in at any big club and pick a fight with star players (by benching them) before he has the unshaking faith of the leadership that he knows what he is doing. Firstly, because he has to give those star players a chance and try to make them adapt to the new style of play. Secondly because that faith is never given a priori, at signing time. Fergie could get rid of the Beckhams, Van Nisterlrooys, Keanes etc. because he had proven himself again and again and no one doubted him. You can't do that as a newcomer. First, you establish yourself and get some results and momentum. Then you sign players who can fit your system better than your stars, then you gradually replace them and hopefully the results are good enough so the fans and directors back you up.

So that said, I actually don't mind Ten Hag switching his style at the beginning of last season after the early batterings. Even though I do assign some blame for him not being adequately prepared for the start of last season. At least he did the pragmatic thing for a new manager only 4-5 games in, with things not working. The problem is that 18 months later, we expected different things. He got to 2 finals last season and won a trophy, he bought himself some time.

If after the first season he felt that Rashford and Bruno could not adapt to position-based football, then he needed to get his transfers right so that he could play the way he wanted. If Antony had worked out then he wouldn't need to play Bruno at RW. If Mount had worked out fine, he could bench Bruno altogether and play Mount #10 with Antony RW. If maybe he had managed Sancho better or prioritised a LW signing, he wouldn't rely on Rashford for LW. But he's clearly given up on trying to make us play the style of football he employed at Ajax, and he verbally confirmed this. His signings however have largely been a failure, so he relies on Bruno and Rashford more than ever. To the point they never get subbed off even when playing badly. And since his new signings don't fit with the way we're playing now, he's benching his signings and playing horrible football while also failing to get results.

He stabilised the team last year but he has failed to evolve it and now we're regressing hard. And that's either because his signings failed or because his coaching failed or because he thought this direct style could get him further that it is... or likely a mix of all.
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Good post, well put. You do have to add in injuries to the mix this year. But even will a fully fit team, i dont think we would be seeing an evolution in the style of football.
 
Watch us play the best football we have all season just for him to drop these players and play the team that's failed for 13 games in a row. Would anyone be surprised?
 
Pscholes18 said:
Someone who understands tactics explain why he can't play like Ajax here??
Click to expand...

Ajax is built to emphasize technical ability over all else. We're not. Our historical identity is more similar to how Liverpool play now than how City play for example. That's how the squad he inherited was built, that seeps into how the youth academy is run etc. He could've changed that of course but chose not to (signed guys like Case / Mount instead of players of the Rodri, Gundogan mould).

I honestly think it was a pedantic answer that people are reading too much into. Sure we won't play like exactly like Ajax but that doesn't mean we can avoid being good at build up / counter pressing. I don't think Ten Hag will disagree with that.

Maybe Ajax's build up attack % is like 60% where as for United it'll be 40% attacks with the build up and 60% attacks long.
 
santeria13 said:
Watch us play the best football we have all season just for him to drop these players and play the team that's failed for 13 games in a row. Would anyone be surprised?
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I think you jumped the gun a little bit early with this one.
 
I don't know what's happened this season but the standard of play has fallen off an absolute cliff, usually teams that drop off like this are when the manager has lost the dressing room. It's hard to explain the collapse otherwise.
 
Losing patience. Forget the defence but how are we so consistently clueless in attack?

We create nothing and fall apart at the first sign of trouble
 
I don’t think this is solely EtH. It’s the fecking coaches too.

What do they actually do in training? Like I’m genuinely interested because none of it transfers to the pitch.

Everyone is fecking clueless.
 
I don’t want him to go but he’s lost them. Time to go and a massive inquisition as to why this keeps happening. Murtough etc need to go too. Obvs we can’t get rid of the Glazers which is the biggest issue
 
At this point we’re shit at everything. Shit keeper, shit defence, shit attack. Shit at possession play, shit at transitions and shit at counter attacking. Can anyone actually name something we are good at? It can’t be all on ETH because the drop off from last season is absolutely incredible. We weren’t excellent last year but we were, at least, the better team in any games against weaker sides. I’ve no idea what’s happened but we are literally awful at all aspects of football at the moment. There is nothing to cling to that could suggest this gets better.

Edit: the players have to want him gone, there’s no way we are actually this bad even without coaching. This shit won’t change until we absolutely gut the squad and player power we’ve allowed develop.
 
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