Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I know Rashford and Bruno are getting a lot of stick and we performed much better as a team without them on Tuesday night but without Bruno against Burnley we may not of won the match. Don’t know any other player in the team who could have scored that volley. I’m all for Rashford being dropped but I just think we need to find a way of playing with Bruno, he’s our most creative player. Players like Garnacho, Hannibal, Pellistri can all replace Rashford because he’s just been awful.
 
Would like to see Rashford dropped with most of the same team playing from Tuesday:

Onana, Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Amrabat, Casemiro, Bruno in CM, Mount, Hannibal, Garnacho, Hojlund.

Pellistri, Rashford, Martial, Lindelof, Gore for subs.

Rashford's overall play with the team is not good enough. I'm getting sick of him.
 
quadrant said:
I'm confused by this post. You say you can't win the PL by being a transition team, but the best transition team of the last few years was Liverpool, who won the PL and CL (and probably have won more but for the ludicrous standards set by Pep).
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Another lie that has been thrown around here for some time.

Liverpool while winning the league (2019-2020) had an average of 62.9% possession. say 63%. City had 66%.

Never have we as United achieved over 58% average possession in the last 10 years. Confirm it, (probably 58-57%)


In that same season, Liverpool completed 21,276 passes. We completed 17,744 passes. That's a difference of 3,500 passes completed.


With an average of 500 passes a game, that spread is like 7 games passes more, to put it into perspective.

Compared to last season (ETH first season). We completed 16,603 passes.


So
2019-2020 - Liverpool 21,276 passes. 99 points.
2021 - 2022 - Liverpool 21,163 passes. 92 points.
2018-2019 - Liverpool 21,146 passes. 97 points.

Manchester United have never had more than 18,880 passes since Fbref started putting up their numbers. Man United average have been 16,000-17,000.


This will show you in black and white, Liverpool at the peak of it's powers were very much controlled, pinned teams behind but also had quick firepower to hit you on counter. But they did not play a transition game at all.

United is a transition team.

Never have we be top 3 in average possession after 38 games since Ferguson retired. Never have we had a title race since Ferguson retired. You see a pattern.

Its extremely impossible to win the league without being top 2 in average possession, and passes completed. There is data to back it up. We will try to sugar coat and find excuses but we will never win anything big while having 4-6th best possession and passes completed team.
 
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Licha-Vidic said:
Another lie that has been thrown around here for some time.

Liverpool while winning the league (2019-2020) had an average of 62.9% possession. say 63%. City had 66%.

Never have we as United achieved over 58% average possession in the last 10 years. Confirm it, (probably 58-57%)


In that same season, Liverpool completed 21,276 passes. We completed 17,744 passes. That's a difference of 3,500 passes completed.

With an average of 500 passes a game, that spread is like 7 games passes more, to put it into perspective.


Compared to last season (ETH first season). We completed 16,603 passes.

This will show you in black and white, Liverpool at the peak of it's powers were very much controlled, pinned teams behind but also had quick firepower to hit you on counter. But they did not play a transition game at all.

United is a transition team.

Never have we be top 3 in average possession after 38 games since Ferguson retired. Never have we had a title race since Ferguson retired. You see a pattern.

Its extremely impossible to win the league without being top 2 in average possession, and passes completed. There is data to back it up. We will try to sugar coat and find excuses but we will never win anything big while having 4-6th best possession and passes completed team.
Click to expand...
You had to watch Liverpool for all of about 10 seconds to know they absolutely did play a transition game.
 
AltiUn said:
You had to watch Liverpool for all of about 10 seconds to know they absolutely did play a transition game.
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You watched goal highlights mate. There is data to back it up.

We as Man United we have never achieved a 20,000+ passes a season since Ferguson retired. Never.

Liverpool have achieved it in the last few years while hitting 90+ points.

Pep averages 22,000 passes. He has won 6 titles.
United averages 16,000 passes. We have won nothing.

But here, United and Liverpool are transition teams. Talk about being delusional. This is why we never progress, we usually downplay other teams strength while overestimate our strength. Ole himself said it recently many of our players think they are better than they are. Same as our fans.

We are a very poor team, if you watch the metrics. That's why our football is not sustainable or progressive.


Even When Liverpool had a collapse of a season,

2020 - 2021 with 69 points they had 21,929 completed passes. United with 74 points had 18,880 passes.

2022-2023, they finished with 67 points (in Europa now) they had 20,043 completed passes. United ( under ETH) we had 16,603 passes.

As you can see Klopp has been able to make Liverpool a 20,000 + passes a team.

You wonder why after every bad season Liverpool usually performs in the next, it's because the basic football metric ( of passing the ball) remains high.

While for us, even that basic metric is so low.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Another lie that has been thrown around here for some time.

Liverpool while winning the league (2019-2020) had an average of 62.9% possession. say 63%. City had 66%.

Never have we as United achieved over 58% average possession in the last 10 years. Confirm it, (probably 58-57%)


In that same season, Liverpool completed 21,276 passes. We completed 17,744 passes. That's a difference of 3,500 passes completed.


With an average of 500 passes a game, that spread is like 7 games passes more, to put it into perspective.

Compared to last season (ETH first season). We completed 16,603 passes.


So
2019-2020 - Liverpool 21,276 passes. 99 points.
2021 - 2022 - Liverpool 21,163 passes. 92 points.
2018-2019 - Liverpool 21,146 passes. 97 points.

Manchester United have never had more than 18,880 passes since Fbref started putting up their numbers. Man United average have been 16,000-17,000.


This will show you in black and white, Liverpool at the peak of it's powers were very much controlled, pinned teams behind but also had quick firepower to hit you on counter. But they did not play a transition game at all.

United is a transition team.

Never have we be top 3 in average possession after 38 games since Ferguson retired. Never have we had a title race since Ferguson retired. You see a pattern.

Its extremely impossible to win the league without being top 2 in average possession, and passes completed. There is data to back it up. We will try to sugar coat and find excuses but we will never win anything big while having 4-6th best possession and passes completed team.
Click to expand...

Liverpool were the definition of a transition team. Your mistake is in thinking being a transition team means you can't also be possession dominant.

When in reality Liverpool were the best transition team in the league while also averaging the second most possession in the league at their best. Meanwhile City were the best possession team in the league, while also being the second best team in transitions behind Liverpool.

Because these are complementary aspects of football, not opposing ones. I think we need to be better in possession, but that is in no way contradictory with being a transition-focused team, which is what that Liverpool side very clearly were.
 
sullydnl said:
Liverpool were the definition of a transition team. Your mistake is in thinking being a transition team means you can't also be possession dominant.

When in reality Liverpool were the best transition team in the league while also averaging the second most possession in the league at their best. Meanwhile City were the best possession team in the league, while also being the second best team in transitions behind Liverpool.

Because these are complementary aspects of football, not opposing ones. I think we need to be better in possession, but that is in no way contradictory with being a transition-focused team, which is what that Liverpool side very clearly were.
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Exactly. I've said this in this thread numerous times, but people think the only type of transition in football is going from park-the-bus mode to scoring a goal within 7 seconds. Liverpool were great at winning the ball high up the pitch and transitioning from there. They were also great at quick transitions from the middle of the pitch by launching long balls for Mane/Salah after winning the ball with a mid-high press.

Defensive transitions is also something that's very important if you want to be a successful team, because you can commit many players offensively and dominate possession while effectively defending once the ball is lost, in order to launch a new attack.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
2019-2020 - Liverpool 21,276 passes. 99 points.
2021 - 2022 - Liverpool 21,163 passes. 92 points.
2018-2019 - Liverpool 21,146 passes. 97 points.
Click to expand...

Interesting...do you have the numbers for all of Klopp's years as Liverpool manager so from 2015 onwards? (not hating, just asking)
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Another lie that has been thrown around here for some time.

Liverpool while winning the league (2019-2020) had an average of 62.9% possession. say 63%. City had 66%.

Never have we as United achieved over 58% average possession in the last 10 years. Confirm it, (probably 58-57%)


In that same season, Liverpool completed 21,276 passes. We completed 17,744 passes. That's a difference of 3,500 passes completed.


With an average of 500 passes a game, that spread is like 7 games passes more, to put it into perspective.

Compared to last season (ETH first season). We completed 16,603 passes.


So
2019-2020 - Liverpool 21,276 passes. 99 points.
2021 - 2022 - Liverpool 21,163 passes. 92 points.
2018-2019 - Liverpool 21,146 passes. 97 points.

Manchester United have never had more than 18,880 passes since Fbref started putting up their numbers. Man United average have been 16,000-17,000.


This will show you in black and white, Liverpool at the peak of it's powers were very much controlled, pinned teams behind but also had quick firepower to hit you on counter. But they did not play a transition game at all.

United is a transition team.

Never have we be top 3 in average possession after 38 games since Ferguson retired. Never have we had a title race since Ferguson retired. You see a pattern.

Its extremely impossible to win the league without being top 2 in average possession, and passes completed. There is data to back it up. We will try to sugar coat and find excuses but we will never win anything big while having 4-6th best possession and passes completed team.
Click to expand...
Liverpool not playing a transition game? I think you need to go back to the drawing board and rewrite this post.

You can create chances from pressing and have higher possession stat if the opposition is weaker or lets you have the ball.

The difference: having the ball as your primary goal and creating chances by low risk passing, or trying to force turnovers and attacking quickly when you have the ball which leads to lower possession stats.

Our problems of the last 10 years have little to do with style, tactics or formations, but with club culture, poor recruitment, lack of discipline, lack of vision.

Ten Hag is a good fit for this club ( not a proponent of a pure possession style) who is trying to bring discipline back.

I have one final name for you: Leicester.
 
sullydnl said:
Liverpool were the definition of a transition team. Your mistake is in thinking being a transition team means you can't also be possession dominant.

When in reality Liverpool were the best transition team in the league while also averaging the second most possession in the league at their best. Meanwhile City were the best possession team in the league, while also being the second best team in transitions behind Liverpool.

Because these are complementary aspects of football, not opposing ones. I think we need to be better in possession, but that is in no way contradictory with being a transition-focused team, which is what that Liverpool side very clearly were.
Click to expand...
I can say Liverpool are a possession team. Will I be wrong? Will I? They are second best in possession in the league?

What metric are you using in saying they are a transition team? Just elaborate, to educate us. And, please don't bring your opinions or what you think.

Table tangible verifiable points/metrics/stats etc.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
You watched goal highlights mate. There is data to back it up.

We as Man United we have never achieved a 20,000+ passes a season since Ferguson retired. Never.

Liverpool have achieved it in the last few years while hitting 90+ points.

Pep averages 22,000 passes. He has won 6 titles.
United averages 16,000 passes. We have won nothing.

But here, United and Liverpool are transition teams. Talk about being delusional. This is why we never progress, we usually downplay other teams strength while overestimate our strength. Ole himself said it recently many of our players think they are better than they are. Same as our fans.

We are a very poor team, if you watch the metrics. That's why our football is not sustainable or progressive.


Even When Liverpool had a collapse of a season,

2020 - 2021 with 69 points they had 21,929 completed passes. United with 74 points had 18,880 passes.

2022-2023, they finished with 67 points (in Europa now) they had 20,043 completed passes. United ( under ETH) we had 16,603 passes.

As you can see Klopp has been able to make Liverpool a 20,000 + passes a team.

You wonder why after every bad season Liverpool usually performs in the next, it's because the basic football metric ( of passing the ball) remains high.

While for us, even that basic metric is so low.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, the "you don't agree with me so you clearly didn't watch" response, I did, I don't need to rely entirely on stats to form an opinion though. Trust your own opinion, you don't need to let stats dictate how you watch and interpret a game of football. Also, if all Liverpool's goals were goals of a transitional team wouldn't that, by definition, mean they did play a transition game in some capacity?
 
Licha-Vidic said:
I can say Liverpool are a possession team. Will I be wrong? Will I? They are second best in possession in the league?

What metric are you using in saying they are a transition team? Just elaborate, to educate us. And, please don't bring your opinions or what you think.

Table tangible verifiable points/metrics/stats etc.
Click to expand...
No you wouldn't be wrong but you would also be a bit reductive, just like if someone called them a transition team. Using any one word tag is simplistic and does nothing but create a binary narrative so that every simpleton can participate in givng their "opinion". I think I remember it starting being a big thing 15 years ago or so with Pep vs Mourinho and the whole counter attack vs possession narrative starting to pop up everywhere among football fans. It comes with strong connotation and in the minds of many, one precludes the other.

All the best teams currently aim at keeping and recycling the ball, the difference is how fast they'd go for the killer risky pass when they transition from winning the ball back to attacking. Liverpool looked for that quicker than a Pep side, hence they put more emphasis on transition compared to City. Maybe it's best to put it as Liverpool at their best were a team that was really good to keeping the ball and consistently recycled possession efficiently while looking to play on the transition very quick relative to City. Also due to their proficiency in possession, their transitional game was helped by winning the ball back relatively high up the pitch making them very potent once they won the ball back.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Another lie that has been thrown around here for some time.

Liverpool while winning the league (2019-2020) had an average of 62.9% possession. say 63%. City had 66%.

Never have we as United achieved over 58% average possession in the last 10 years. Confirm it, (probably 58-57%)


In that same season, Liverpool completed 21,276 passes. We completed 17,744 passes. That's a difference of 3,500 passes completed.


With an average of 500 passes a game, that spread is like 7 games passes more, to put it into perspective.

Compared to last season (ETH first season). We completed 16,603 passes.


So
2019-2020 - Liverpool 21,276 passes. 99 points.
2021 - 2022 - Liverpool 21,163 passes. 92 points.
2018-2019 - Liverpool 21,146 passes. 97 points.

Manchester United have never had more than 18,880 passes since Fbref started putting up their numbers. Man United average have been 16,000-17,000.


This will show you in black and white, Liverpool at the peak of it's powers were very much controlled, pinned teams behind but also had quick firepower to hit you on counter. But they did not play a transition game at all.

United is a transition team.

Never have we be top 3 in average possession after 38 games since Ferguson retired. Never have we had a title race since Ferguson retired. You see a pattern.

Its extremely impossible to win the league without being top 2 in average possession, and passes completed. There is data to back it up. We will try to sugar coat and find excuses but we will never win anything big while having 4-6th best possession and passes completed team.
Click to expand...

The fact you think a team that focusses on transitions must by definition have less possession pretty much says it all. Hence my original post.

I didn't bother reading the rest since that basic proposition is wrong and makes the rest of your argument moot.
 
NLunited said:
Liverpool not playing a transition game? I think you need to go back to the drawing board and rewrite this post.

You can create chances from pressing and have higher possession stat if the opposition is weaker or lets you have the ball.

The difference: having the ball as your primary goal and creating chances by low risk passing, or trying to force turnovers and attacking quickly when you have the ball which leads to lower possession stats.

Our problems of the last 10 years have little to do with style, tactics or formations, but with club culture, poor recruitment, lack of discipline, lack of vision.

Ten Hag is a good fit for this club ( not a proponent of a pure possession style) who is trying to bring discipline back.

I have one final name for you: Leicester.
Click to expand...
No team in the history of football has aimed to have the ball as its primary goal. Why would a manager, the person whose job and reputation hinges directly on results, prioritise a stat that gives them nothing concrete? It's all about what they see as the most sustainable way to getting results. It's no different than believing having a great number 9 who consistently scores is the primary aim. These are just theories on what components of the game are conductive for getting consistent results and to which degree each component is significant; possession, positional discipline, individual quality, transition, etc...

Leicester are a bad example because their target is not the same as ours. We are an elite club, our size and budget doesn't allow us to be anything else. The target for an elite club, especially in this time and age is not to win the league which is what Leicester achieved, the target is to consistently compete for the league and CL over a number of years on top of winning. That's what our great United teams did, Barcelona, Real and Bayern in '10s and more recently City and Liverpool. Winning a league title alone is too small a target for the elite clubs which is why Leicester is a bad example. Teams who have met this target of consistently challenging and winning have all been tactically very strong and superbly coached to be pro active, hence the assumption is that we have to match that to stand any chance of playing like our status suggests.
 
NLunited said:
I agree except with the gk remark. Pointless bringing in Onana? Having him in goal means teams can‘t stop us from playing out the back anymore, which was a huge issue last season. Every gawddamn team would press us.
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In the context of a limited budget, a gk was not among our highest priorities. We’re still not effective playing out of the back, despite Onana, and he’s been forced to play a lot of long balls, which is not his fault nor is it something that has caused our problems in attack. Our problems in attack, which is not Onana’s fault, are the same problems we had last seasons.
 
If this is his style of football he's finished here regardless of today's result.

Lethargic pedestrian paced build up. Playing one of the worst teams in the league and we're so sluggish it looks like pre season.

Best transition team in the world my balls.
 
At least we're good in cups. Maybe we can fluke a CL win a la Chelsea if everything goes our way.
 
I know we have injuries and all, but he doesn't half overcomplicate things some times. Just get the ball to the midfield and attack. Stop fecking holding possession among Onana and the defence. Was better after the goal but it's like the plan is keep the ball deep before a hoof up to Rashford or hojlund if we have a long ball chance. It's horrendous build up play and it's been this way for a while. Which is a surprise. Because that's what he's supposed to be able to coach well historically.
 
bosnian_red said:
I know we have injuries and all, but he doesn't half overcomplicate things some times. Just get the ball to the midfield and attack. Stop fecking holding possession among Onana and the defence. Was better after the goal but it's like the plan is keep the ball deep before a hoof up to Rashford or hojlund if we have a long ball chance. It's horrendous build up play and it's been this way for a while. Which is a surprise. Because that's what he's supposed to be able to coach well historically.
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It hasn’t been that bad, just shit forwards.
 
Our attacking play is dire and has been for most of this year. I got called a hater for saying it but surely more can see it now.
 
So are they actually going to struggle against every side they play at home from now on, I honestly can't remember the last league match were they looked completely comfortable, plus ten hag has to stop picking certain players, they dropped to be put in their place with their lethargic attitude!
 
LVG esque. How many shots did we had? I am a strong supporter of ETH but the attack just isn't working today. And No, it's not down to injuries.
 
we don’t look like a team that has a plan or is systematically coached. Even Brighton in their 6-1 thumping showed more identify in their play. I love ETH and how he manages egos in the dressing room but I honestly feel his days here are numbered even if we turn this Palace game around.

One would expect a better performance with the players we have in the lineup today, despite the injuries.
 
Leftback99 said:
Our attacking play is dire and has been for most of this year. I got called a hater for saying it but surely more can see it now.
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Agreed. Our attack is total shit. Rashford plays like he is the only player in attack. Hojlund looks...meh. Pellestri is a nothing player. We still have people banking on Martial to contribute this season. Antony works hard but has no end product. Less said about Sancho the better.
Sad state of affairs. The whole attack needs ripping up and rebuilding
 
Looks like he's not good for EPL, the tactic is boring. Afraid that he will just focus to try and win cups this season.
 
He has his striker on the pitch now and we don't look any better for it. I'm miles off saying he's finished here, but there are very worrying signs starting to rear their ugly head and he's got to deal with them fast or the season is totally lost.
 
Talks a good game. The proof however shows itself on the pitch, and we're a shambles. We won't get anywhere near City with him.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
Banking on Rashford and Bruno will be his downfall I fear.
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To implement his plan? Agreed

If it was Basically just defend ensuring to keep a clean sheet them hope for magic, those two would work.
But if it's not (which it clearly doesn't seem to be) then these two are an issue he needs to resolve
 
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