Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I’m also of the belief that Rashford is definitely a hindrance to the overall team but he is obviously a good individual player. I’d like to see us move away from this though. You need somebody who is both.

I wouldn’t really be against selling Bruno or Rashford because there would clearly be logic behind that decision. I think we would absolutely get stronger as a whole without them. We can’t be ‘Moments FC’ forever if we intend to progress. Rashford has a massive value after his new deal and could see PSG going for him if Mbappe goes now and Bruno is also on the wrong side of his 20’s which is fine but his game is ultra physical and relies on him being quite mobile. If two suitable offers came in I’d probably say yes and build a proper team with the money.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Bruno is by far our best player, when Rashford isn‘t on form. We lacked creativity yesterday without him.
How did we lack creativity when we scored 3 goals. Had 69% possession. 13 goal attempts. 7 shots on target. 139 attacks.


You say we need to move away from being a transition team. I say we need to improve playing out our attacks from transitions better and we will score lots of goals.

Yes we need to move away from being a transition team. Because.

1. You can't autopilot in 38 games in EPL.
2. You can't win more than 30 games ( standard for winning the league) in EPL by being a transition team.
3. In a season of over 50+ games, adding UCL + FA cup you will need control, game management, plan, patterns etc to navigate all the season.

About improving attacks, is easiest way to score more goals is when you over load and attack in numbers ( read the cut backs) for you to do this consistently you have to attack in blocks, not in individuals. You know why Rashford is selfish is because he has not trained in any other way for the last few years. It's always ball over the top for rashford to chase and create a moment. This style against superior teams/equal teams is extremely unsustainable. You wonder why we don't win away from home this is 1 culprit.



We don‘t need to switch playing style: we needed more responsibility and graft in midfield and more composure on the ball. The problem we‘ve had is that Eriksen gives us composure but lacks defensive contribution.

About switching of play, in my opinion is necessary because of sustainability.
That's why alot of people here are still confused, mad with ETH because of not having a style of play. We need a style of play because the current transition style is unsustainable even to the naked eye.
Midfield correctly is our main problem.

We can blame Eriksen but he is a free signing from Brentford. Even before Eriksen we used to play transition football. We used to leak goals and get overrun. So as much as Eriksen has played 1 season for us, we can't pin blame on him being the face of our play

The solution is Amrabat and hopefully Mainoo when he comes back.

Read my comment about Amrabat in July. I said he will be the best signing for us together with Mount.

But Amrabat is a loan signing, Mainoo is academy graduate they can't shift our play, if the manager is not willing to change how we play. ETH needs balls to achieve a modern consistent football.

We aren‘t going to be a possession team and certainly aren‘t getting rid of Bruno, that‘s madness.

You can't be sure mate. Don't say with finality.

But a fact is, something has to give, the way we play can't win us trophies.
We've already lost 3 PL games after 6 games played. City lost 5 games last season to win the league. Arsenal 6 games. 38 games after.

When we won the CL in 2008,we went unbeaten the whole campaign in CL. City last season won the CL unbeaten also. Bayern 2020 also.

As you can see, it's not about winning some games, but it's about not losing games.

We lose games so frequent that it shows we can't win anything big.

So the question should be, how do we stop losing so many games? How? Answer that and it will be extremely easy to see what to do to achieve success.
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Wow. Not gonna address all these point by point I don‘t have the time.

Against Palace we didn‘t create much until we scored, we were definitely stale in the final third. Bruno is always making things happen: we missed him.

Our style is not unsustainable, Pool and Red Bull teams do it. What is not sustainable is poor recovery and ball retention. We just have to improve those things, no matter what style we play.

Last season we won a trophy and had a record number of clean sheets. Could have won two more (FA cup and Europa League). And this year we have a better squad.

It seems you are drawing big conclusions from a couple of losses while about half the squad is out.

Just watch us put together a strong run of games with this pressing/transition style soon. You can quote me on that.
 
Santos J said:
@vanderpants did you get an invite?
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Unfortunately not, I saw the aftermath and it looked like they had a good time! They went all guns out especially for the kids, they had a soft play area and a huge sweet stall set up, the adults were kicking back bottles of madri lager and bottles of red wine......
Sancho wasn't present
 
Looking at the other PL teams playing their second strings in the Carabao Cup, it makes you realise that United basically had to play their cup team since the beginning of the season
 
Not to shit on Rashford just for the sake of it but I would like to see more of what I saw against Palace. I dont see that happening with him starting. His performances anyways dont warrant a starting spot. His head doesn't seem to be in the game atm.
 
These players have escaped from accountability and criticism for too long.

Its time to bring back the power to the manager again. No one is above the club.
 
RuudTom83 said:
7 Wins and the noise around the club will be nice and quiet.

2 down 5 to go...

Burnley - Won
Palace - Won
Palace -
Galatasaray -
Brentford -
Sheffield -
Kobenhavn -
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We're still miles off winning major honours, so who gives a toss if the noise is there or not.

This obsession of quieting people who might not agree with a view that has seen us fail time and again in the last 10 years from United fans is a symptom hard copium.

The truth is, our squad is not good enough to win the major trophies and has more embarrassing moments than highlights in recent times. As for the manager, it remains to be seen but I am still hopeful.

If people think some of our overpaid and overplayed prima donnas need a reality check to either perform better or be moved on and be replaced with a higher calibre of player, who cares.
 
Rightnr said:
We're still miles off winning major honours, so who gives a toss if the noise is there or not.

This obsession of quieting people who might not agree with a view that has seen us fail time and again in the last 10 years from United fans is a symptom hard copium.

The truth is, our squad is not good enough to win the major trophies and has more embarrassing moments than highlights in recent times. As for the manager, it remains to be seen but I am still hopeful.

If people think some of our overpaid and overplayed prima donnas need a reality check to either perform better or be moved on and be replaced with a higher calibre of player, who cares.
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This supposed "not good enough" squad hasn't even been given a chance due to absences. And time. So yeah.... we won't win the PL yet of course, but we can be a top team with what we have for sure. But we need the key players fit.
 
quadrant said:
Definitely the correct principle. However it needs to executed in the right way, you need to take as many people as possible with you, not have a scorched earth approach. For what its worth, I think he's got it right so far.
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Me too. What worries me isn't if ten Hag is getting it right. But the fact that this messaging is now increasingly taking place in public isn't a good sign - if you have a manager who's handling this smartly (and I think we do), that only happens once things get to the point where the only choice is between that and just backing down and try to make the best of it. To his credit, EtH is not taking the latter course (I think Ole rather obviously did). But there aren't many additional steps on that ladder, if it doesn't yield quick results.
 
bosnian_red said:
This supposed "not good enough" squad hasn't even been given a chance due to absences. And time. So yeah.... we won't win the PL yet of course, but we can be a top team with what we have for sure. But we need the key players fit.
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There's something in your point but let's put it differently. Do you think we have a realistic chance of winning the CL?

I think Liverpool would have if they were there but not us.
 
@Rightnr

Yeah winning the league is a long way off...but I'll just be happy celebrating a few wins after the start to this season tbh.

I leave the doom and gloom to you.
 
feck player power. It's the reason we haven't won anything in a decade. If you don't want to play, there's always somebody else that wants to.

Good on ten Hag. This could be a turning point.
 
Tom Van Persie said:


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Probably the reason why Sancho thinks he is the scapegoat. Like the old way of things - hey , I'm not the only one so why just me ?

ETH just took the opportunity on one of the most paid players who lack the attitude . Hey if I can do against him, I will do that to you too.

We really need to support ETH now. It's now or never.
 
Rightnr said:
There's something in your point but let's put it differently. Do you think we have a realistic chance of winning the CL?

I think Liverpool would have if they were there but not us.
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I haven't watched their games so I don't know, but I see them conceding a goal every game. Of course they are winning but just feels like their defense is not good enough.
 
NLunited said:
Wow. Not gonna address all these point by point I don‘t have the time.

Against Palace we didn‘t create much until we scored, we were definitely stale in the final third. Bruno is always making things happen: we missed him.

Our style is not unsustainable, Pool and Red Bull teams do it. What is not sustainable is poor recovery and ball retention. We just have to improve those things, no matter what style we play.

Last season we won a trophy and had a record number of clean sheets. Could have won two more (FA cup and Europa League). And this year we have a better squad.

It seems you are drawing big conclusions from a couple of losses while about half the squad is out.

Just watch us put together a strong run of games with this pressing/transition style soon. You can quote me on that.
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We did not create much until we scored, that is true. We scored 2 goals from first 2 chances what settled the game.
Did we miss Bruno? That's a very difficult question to answer. The weight of the game was on the backline, as usual when the opposition is sitting deep. We didn't move the ball very well through the middle, not sure if Bruno would've helped in that. IMO Bruno instead of Pellistri would be a good choice but I think Mount did well.
 
Rightnr said:
There's something in your point but let's put it differently. Do you think we have a realistic chance of winning the CL?

I think Liverpool would have if they were there but not us.
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I think we have a far better chance at winning the CL than the PL. If we ever get our squad fit this season, I believe we have it in us to be in the 2nd tier of European clubs.

City, Bayern and Madrid are the only clubs who have the potential to be in or already are in the top tier due to squad and the way they play (or should be playing in Bayerns case).

After them, Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca, PSG are in that 2nd tier. Possibly Napoli and Inter in terms of their top level. I think we are firmly on that tier if we have normal vibes, and had periods last season where we were at that level but squad wise weren't quite there. This season I think we are. I expect us to reach a level this season where we are right there with Liverpool and Arsenal in terms of performances, but that just takes some time. Given the injuries and general chaos around the club and large amount of changes, I'd guess we won't see that til after Christmas. Which should still be fine for CL. So not top 3 favourites, but in that 4th - 8th tier which should be quarter final minimum target, semi final possible, and at that point anything can happen.
 
Nonsense. The more you control the ball, the better your chances. He'd never say such a thing at Ajax. What's with this obsession with moving to a transitional style of play all of a sudden? Pointless bringing in someone like Onana if you don't want to dominate on the ball.
 
RedUnited86 said:
Nonsense. The more you control the ball, the better your chances. He'd never say such a thing at Ajax. What's with this obsession with moving to a transitional style of play all of a sudden? Pointless bringing in someone like Onana if you don't want to dominate on the ball.
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Did you watch what he said?

He said he'd prefer to control games by keeping the ball, but you can also control without it on the occasional game. What he said is true and in line with the philosophy.
 
VP89 said:
Did you watch what he said?

He said he'd prefer to control games by keeping the ball, but you can also control without it on the occasional game. What he said is true and in line with the philosophy.
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He also said he wants us to become the best transitional team in the world. He either wants to control games, or he doesn't. We can't be both.
 
RedUnited86 said:
He also said he wants us to become the best transitional team in the world. He either wants to control games, or he doesn't. We can't be both.
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You can be both, you're mistaking transitional football with pure counter attacks.
 
RedUnited86 said:
He also said he wants us to become the best transitional team in the world. He either wants to control games, or he doesn't. We can't be both.
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He said that he wants us to be the best transitional team in the world. He meant that our transition must be the best. Not that we will be playing only transitional play.
 
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38% is a little low no matter how you spin it, but it's a results oriented business. Keep on winning and hello sound like a genius. Lose and it'll come off as daft and desperate.
 
RedUnited86 said:
Nonsense. The more you control the ball, the better your chances. He'd never say such a thing at Ajax. What's with this obsession with moving to a transitional style of play all of a sudden? Pointless bringing in someone like Onana if you don't want to dominate on the ball.
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One might think so, but that's not necessarily so. If you're Manchester City and routinely take high quality shots regardless of whether you're attacking a parked bus or hitting them on the counter you're going to get better chances the more you control the ball. But over the last decade United has been fairly poor in breaking down parked buses.

I'd like to see us dominate in all aspects of play all the time against every opponent. But what I'd like to see and what the reality actually is -- attackers who are poor finishers, midfielders who get overrun and, at least this season, defenders who get beaten in their own box (and a keeper who, to put it kindly, hasn't exactly bolted off the starting blocks) -- we're not creating better chances when we have control of the ball than we don't have control of the ball.

And if you look back over the decades -- at least going back to the late 1980s -- United never really have been a patient ball control side that broke down defenses with intricate passing. We've historically been a club that bludgeoned opposing defenses with the advantage of numbers, not ball control.

That said, the modern game in England is such that defenses in relatively average squads are better organized and they have to be beaten with the kind of intricate passing "control the ball" attack that United just aren't built yet to master. Even Bruno, our main man in attack, isn't known as a patient ball control playmaker. He's a modern day Blackbeard of footballers who goes for the hero ball and can come up with moments of magic such as what we saw against Burnley but he is no patient buildup playmaking midfielder. It was pointless to bring in Onana since we don't dominate the ball in the first place -- or to be more precise about it, we may dominate the ball on occasion but when we actually create our fair chances whether we dominate the ball or don't dominate the ball, but our finishing is so poor it doesn't matter which it is. We dominated possession against Spurs and blew glorious chance after glorious chance, only to end up losing our heads and losing the game.
 
Some people on here seem to be of the belief that the only transition that exists in football is one where all 11 players are inside the penalty box and then counter-attack for the length of the pitch.
 
bond19821982 said:
Probably the reason why Sancho thinks he is the scapegoat. Like the old way of things - hey , I'm not the only one so why just me ?

ETH just took the opportunity on one of the most paid players who lack the attitude . Hey if I can do against him, I will do that to you too.

We really need to support ETH now. It's now or never.
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We do need to support ETH 100%

Also if Sancho is stupid enough to publicly present himself for discipline, as he did, then he willget no sympathy from me!
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Not a very positive mindset but let's see where it leads us.



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It is the truth, possession alone means nothing. I‘m not bothered by it even though I‘m a Dutch Ajax fan etc.

Some people on here think possession stats are relevant for determining who had control of the game. They are not. The stat that matters is chances created.
 
lex talionis said:
One might think so, but that's not necessarily so. If you're Manchester City and routinely take high quality shots regardless of whether you're attacking a parked bus or hitting them on the counter you're going to get better chances the more you control the ball. But over the last decade United has been fairly poor in breaking down parked buses.

I'd like to see us dominate in all aspects of play all the time against every opponent. But what I'd like to see and what the reality actually is -- attackers who are poor finishers, midfielders who get overrun and, at least this season, defenders who get beaten in their own box (and a keeper who, to put it kindly, hasn't exactly bolted off the starting blocks) -- we're not creating better chances when we have control of the ball than we don't have control of the ball.

And if you look back over the decades -- at least going back to the late 1980s -- United never really have been a patient ball control side that broke down defenses with intricate passing. We've historically been a club that bludgeoned opposing defenses with the advantage of numbers, not ball control.

That said, the modern game in England is such that defenses in relatively average squads are better organized and they have to be beaten with the kind of intricate passing "control the ball" attack that United just aren't built yet to master. Even Bruno, our main man in attack, isn't known as a patient ball control playmaker. He's a modern day Blackbeard of footballers who goes for the hero ball and can come up with moments of magic such as what we saw against Burnley but he is no patient buildup playmaking midfielder. It was pointless to bring in Onana since we don't dominate the ball in the first place -- or to be more precise about it, we may dominate the ball on occasion but when we actually create our fair chances whether we dominate the ball or don't dominate the ball, but our finishing is so poor it doesn't matter which it is. We dominated possession against Spurs and blew glorious chance after glorious chance, only to end up losing our heads and losing the game.
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I agree except with the gk remark. Pointless bringing in Onana? Having him in goal means teams can‘t stop us from playing out the back anymore, which was a huge issue last season. Every gawddamn team would press us.
 
NLunited said:
It is the truth, possession alone means nothing. I‘m not bothered by it even though I‘m a Dutch Ajax fan etc.

Some people on here think possession stats are relevant for determining who had control of the game. They are not. The stat that matters is chances created.
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It’s like people have forgotten Liverpool of recent years. Even City set up against Arsenal away last year to have less possession. It was 36% - 64%.
 
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macheda14 said:
It’s like people have forgotten Liverpool of recent years. Even City set up against Arsenal away last year to have less possession. It was 36% - 64%.
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I’d like to think people harping on about possession are leaning more towards retention capabilities, especially in the final third. Possession doesn’t give control but it helps and it’s the biggest contributor to game management.

Situational issues will always arise where it’ll be preferable to have less of the ball because games are not played in a vacuum but I doubt any manager with high aspirations will generally model a team to not have a good chunk of the ball. It should be expected a club like United to have better possession or shade it against 75% of the league.

We can’t keep dismissing it as irrelevant because our team is not displayed the level of competence required at the top end. A team with lofty ambitions should not pride itself in the chaos of ceding possession and hoping to catch the opponent off guard.

One would expect ETH is already working towards it because he’s made mentions of us not taking proper care of the ball. He also seem to reference the word “dominate” a lot.
 
NLunited said:
It is the truth, possession alone means nothing. I‘m not bothered by it even though I‘m a Dutch Ajax fan etc.

Some people on here think possession stats are relevant for determining who had control of the game. They are not. The stat that matters is chances created.
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Just to add one comment on top of yours, what matters is chances created on both ends. We have been doing pretty well witch chances creation this season (there was a point in time we topped this star in the league), but the problem was we were also leaking chances against us.
For that reason I (and many others) was so baffled by the idea of Mount and Bruno playing as 8/10 hybrids ahead of Casemiro. So far this has not been effective and we saw exactly the problem we were afraid of - once you pass first line of our defense, it's open highway to our goal. This is what happens in top-heavy teams that are not good at defending collectively.

When city get to a groove they tend to create good chances but most of all they are exceptional at limiting opposition chances. And it's not like their back 4 is so good, the midfield does the trick.
 
NLunited said:
It is the truth, possession alone means nothing. I‘m not bothered by it even though I‘m a Dutch Ajax fan etc.

Some people on here think possession stats are relevant for determining who had control of the game. They are not. The stat that matters is chances created.
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Arsenal for years, and us under LVG should have buried that fecking idea a long time ago.
 
NLunited said:
It is the truth, possession alone means nothing. I‘m not bothered by it even though I‘m a Dutch Ajax fan etc.

Some people on here think possession stats are relevant for determining who had control of the game. They are not. The stat that matters is chances created.
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Imo it's hard to tell. For example you could totally control the match, the opponents could not even get out of their own half but you create barely anything because your attackers randomly decide to have a bad day.
 
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