Was Rangnick an era? 6 months with no signings.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Not sure clean sheets is a logical point when he replaced our golden glove winning goalkeeper.
I don't care how I sound to knee jerk merchants without common sense to be honest.
Of course he has positive points in his favor! I never said he didn’t. He does! But none of the above answer any of the large numbers of issues that team has.
I don’t care if we keep a clean sheet at home to Everton if we get smashed 7-0 by Liverpool and 4-0 by Brentford.
We have had a terrible start and the team don’t look fit. He deserves the criticism and the questions.
It’s not knee jerk, there were serious issues last season. You just turn to name calling almost straight away. Incredible.
I watched young Hannibal a lot and he gets stuck in as much as anyone. Plus he can pass, dribble and score the odd goal. He doesn’t have McT’s experience but at this point McT is surely not the future. Hannibal is the future. I’m basing it on what I’ve seen over several years (Hannibal and McT).
The injuries are only one of the extenuating circumstances though.
First and most obvious is the ownership situation. I bet ETH, along with most of us, expected new owners in over the summer and a big budget for this season.
Also, I'm convinced that ETH was planning for Greenwood to be part of the squad this season, that didn't happen.
Then you have Antony and Sancho both unavailable for reasons that are out of ETH's control.
In terms of players coming back and changing how we play, we have Reguilon who's just come in and already looks like the best player on the pitch. Amrabat hasn't kicked a ball for us yet. Mount has played what two games? Hojlund still getting up to full fitness. I think there's a lot these injured/not fully fit players can bring to the team.
Personally, I'll give ETH almost a free pass this season as long as I still see reasonable improvement in our style of play and he doesn't lose the dressing room.
If my memory serves me ETH and the club wanted to keep De Gea. It's was Dave who refused to sign an extension. It's more like Onana is replacing Heaton than De Gea.
He didn't refuse. He signed the contract before the offer was pulled and replaced with a lower offer as Ten Hag wanted a new #1
Every team loses big occasionally. As long as you don't make a habit of it you're fine. The Brentford loss in particular was an anomaly, right at the beginning of his first season in charge. We didn't even have Casemiro for that game iirc.
We've started this season poorly, no doubt and he does deserve some criticism of course. I just think a lot of the criticism is way over the top and a lot of people are missing the nuance of having the Glazers still in charge, Greenwood out of the squad, all the injuries, Antony and Sancho unavailable, etc.
So he still refused to sign a contract with the club that we deemed to be fair value. This player is still without a club btw so I'm not sure we're missing out on much. De Gea seems to have miscalculated the situation entirely.
I actually really appreciate this measured response and accept your points.
I think both Greenwood and Sancho could be argued as negative in their own way, but I accept the way you see it.
I just think there are too many questions now, for me.
Some of the posts here are shambolic. He hasn't been properly backed by the Glazers. It's not only about incomings but outgoings too. Maguire, Mctominay, and Martial shouldn't be here. Sancho too by the sounds of it. The Greenwood situation was handled poorly as well.
They didn't allow him to bring the medical team from Ajax with him I think that is a bigger deal then people realize. Look at all these injuries. He needs more time to bring in proven winners with character like Casemiro, Varane, and fighters that hate to lose like Martinez and Antony. It's going to take time however which I'm not sure he'll be afforded.
They didn't allow him to bring the medical team from Ajax with him I think that is a bigger deal then people realize. Look at all these injuries. He needs more time to bring in proven winners with character like Casemiro, Varane, and fighters that hate to lose like Martinez and Antony. It's going to take time however which I'm not sure he'll be afforded.
There certainly are a lot of questions, can't deny that. I hope we get some relief soon.
Always nice to have a calm measured discussion on here.
I mean our next games are somewhat "easy" so if we continued our current form it would be an undeniable disaster
At the end of the day, we all care about the club and it hurts to see us doing so badly. A lot of the tension comes from that and I know I am guilty of it too.
But it really does help when we can discuss it back and forth and be civil about differences of opinions. It makes the forum a nicer place to be too.
No easy games in the Premier League (except Luton lol). I've been sorely disappointed by thinking we have an easy run coming only to lose to Watford or something.
Say we win 2 and lose 3 of our next 5 all while showing steady improvement of our playing style. Would you be in favour of a sacking? I say no. I get that it's a hypothetical to suit my own argument a bit but you get the point.
He genuinely has the mother of all jobs at the moment, it's somehow worse than when he first started. The attitude on some of these players needs seriously looking at
He was obviously doing what any manager would and defending Onana in his post match presser but I did like the way he seemed to be genuinely annoyed at the players for not getting tighter to Sane. Watching it back it is weak defending as well as a very easy shot to save.
Agreed completely
Fully agree. We're all on the same side here for the most part. I came to this forum because I enjoyed the variety of opinions and how that sparked mostly respectful conversation.
Tactically there were clear issues again, it's just going to get glossed over because Bayern squandered a lot of opportunities and there were bigger taking points than the tactical battle. The overall performance was horrendous and the tactics is barely worth mentioning.
Bayern should have scored plenty more. It wasn't just the result but the performance. That was the worst defensive display I've seen since Ole's final days. The way they picked us apart with simple balls over the top to runners was Sunday league level. Luckily bayern were rubbish and we retained some dignity in what should have been a pasting.
As somebody else mentioned, he doesn't have an unlimited budget. To sign all of those players would have cost anther £200m+. Does he need a billion pound team to show some semblance of a coherent plan?
“Car crash”
You are not any more mature mate just because you choose to believe, despite ever increasing evidence to the contrary.
The car crash are the fans who don’t hold the club to a greater standard and let us lurch forward with no direction and the wrong people in key positions.
All summer to prepare and not one good performance in the first 6 games. It’s genuinely shocking.
The writing was on the wall in pre season. We were rubbish there too and quite a few posters recognised we were in trouble.
Why would ETH come to United and bank on new owners so he can be a success? Do you think he's that deluded? Even so, we were limited under FFP after his huge outlay last summer. And it shouldn't take more and more money to be able to show what he can do tactically. Before this season started nobody was saying he needs more money, everybody was in agreement that we should see improvement and for us to push on. This idea of him not being backed is just an excuse. Absolutely nobody apart from this ETH fan group on here says that he wasn't backed. Because that would be stupid after the amount he's spent.
And regarding your other points, if he was banking on Greenwood walking back in then he an absolute fool and clearly not as intelligent as people think. The biggest joke of a point you and others are making is about Sancho being missing. Out of his control? He caused that whole situation himself. It's a laughable point to make and shows how desperate you are to make excuses that you even went there.
Every manager seeks assurances over the funds available, new ownership would factor into that. Owners of premier league clubs can contribute 90 million of their own funds to help with FFP, do you think the Glazers have ever done that?
Before this summer, literally everyone thought we needed big investment in the squad with GK, CM, and ST all needing big signings and positions like full back and center back needing reinforcement as well. And to your point about we should see results at this point, we won a cup and came 3rd last season which is undeniably an improvement.
Finally, as per the Athletic article about the situation, ETH and Murtough were planning for Greenwood to be a part of the squad this season. That's the most reputable football publication on this earth, you can believe it or not.
Just ask 'ETH out' folks who they think can definitely fix this mess and they'll all be silent.
Man United fans have weird relationship with manager, everything comes down to him. Tea lady spilled the coffee? "manager's fault". Next manager should wear mask whole the time so supporters can't be sure who they are pointing finger at.
Man United fans have weird relationship with manager, everything comes down to him. Tea lady spilled the coffee? "manager's fault". Next manager should wear mask whole the time so supporters can't be sure who they are pointing finger at.
Our biggest issue right now is that we don’t have the players to press properly. So we are wasting energy trying to win the ball up the pitch leaving our midfield and back four exposed.
He got all of those positions filled, in fact he got 2 midfielders. He hasn't got a new RB but over the past year they've not been a problem and have preformed well, so I'm not buying that a new RB is now the missing piece. Obviously he got Reguilon too, who has been fine and again can't be pointed as the issue. What's worse is that his previous signings are all looking pretty suspect right now. Next we'll be talking about replacing them. £90m wouldn't have made a difference if we can look like we have this season after spending £450m. He's been backed better than other managers who have got a tune out of clubs with less resources, so this excuse doesn't wash.
Say for a second that we keep buying his players like you suggest, without seeing some tangible, sustainable method to his plan and it all fails. Where would we go from there? ETH gets sacked and we're right back to square one with a squad full of his guys who aren't pulling up trees anyway. If I were the club I wouldn't be spending a penny in January and would be expecting to see not only an upturn in results but some top class football on a consistent basis before the season is out. Anything less and he would be out of the door. I honestly don't think we cash risk anymore money on him until we see something exciting that makes us genuinely believe he would challenge City with more money.
I know all about what The Athletic said. But what I'm saying is that if he or the club genuinely thought it would fly when it became public knowledge, then they are idiots. That reaction was not a surprise at all and it's actually concerning if he and the club thought that the fans and the public would turn a blind eye. It says a lot about their views on the subject, which is something that both worries and angers me to think about.
What's even more hilarious is that many of the posters who are against ETH wanted Poch instead.
ETH can't react to tactical nuance in a game and watches by as Brightons second string team play us off the park? 'Glazers fault'
ETH spends loads of money but still can't showis this amazing plan of his on the pitch? 'Glazers fault'
ETH wants to spend loads of money on a keeper who looks average at actually being a keeper? 'Glazers fault'
ETH wants to hang out Sancho in public, in the midst of a terrible run with nothing but negativity, only adding to that issue? 'Glazers fault'
ETH prioritises Mount when there are more pressing issues in the team to deal with? 'Glazers fault'
I could go on, but this is genuinely the sort of rubbish being spouted on here.
I don't mind losing and definitely don't mind losing with such a scoreline against Bayern but the issue is I don't like the way we are playing. I expected when we hired ETH that we have a manager who would love to have his side dominate possession and play some slick football. We do in patches but overall look poor. Now injuries are valid excuse but even then I am surprised how he still brings on duds like Mctominay to do a job when that idiot was jogging in his 20 min cameo.
The effort is missing from the players. The only reason I don't want him gone is If he goes I also want most of the players to go with him and also the board. I can't stand Mctominay martial (who was good today) or even the likes of Lindelof start for another manager.
The effort is missing from the players. The only reason I don't want him gone is If he goes I also want most of the players to go with him and also the board. I can't stand Mctominay martial (who was good today) or even the likes of Lindelof start for another manager.
I would have been happy with Poch as I'd seen him actually do it in the PL. It's early days at Chelsea but I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong if he fails there. How about some of you lot consider doing the same? It's fine to be wrong or to have doubts about your choice. Let's just call it as it is and keep some standards instead of making excuses.
I doubt I'll ever feel that tie to a manager again until somebody comes in and has us back at the top table and playing good football. In the meantime, when I think somebody is failing then I'll just say it. The worst period as a United supporter for me was watching us under Ole. I knew he wasn't the one but fans and the club clung to him for dear life, whilst myself and others just had to wait and endure the miserable performances until everybody woke the feck up to what was going on.
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So a manager is excused unless he gets every single signing?
Kane
Mount
Kim
Onana
Pavard
Cucurella
Amrabat
I mean that's almost 280m worth of players (being generous and only saying Kane is 100m when he would have cost probably more than that).
By your logic no manager should ever really face fault since almost none of them get every player they want. And for the record I like Ten Hag and think he's been dealt a bit of a shit hand to start this season, but I've also raised very real concerns over his seemingly huge influence on transfer targets along with the feeling that he's caught in between two styles of play both squad wise and actual tactics wise
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First, the managers who have been backed less but had greater success are at clubs who have a proper footballing structure in place. Just look at the one other club that doesn't (Chelsea) and what a mess they're in. Being "backed" doesn't just mean money spent and having control, it also means having a department at the club dedicated to recruitment and someone with enoigh authority to put their foot down when required. It's not the coaches job to recruit players anymore.
As for our signings this summer. Two of them were on deadline day, one of which still hasn't played for us. GK has been addressed adequately but I'd say it's the only position that has been. Huge question mark over whether Hojlund will be able to score enough this season, Mount seems like a bizarre signing and we've yet to see what Amrabat can bring to the squad. Most posters gave this window a 5-7 out of 10 which is not good enough.
I don't advocate signing players willy nilly and then sacking Ten Hag. We need to finally implement a proper footballing structure with a long term vision for the club. Nobody will challenge City with the current structure we have. From ownership down to CEO and DOF they're all not good enough.
With regards to Greenwood. We've seen huge clubs such as Tottenham, Arsenal, and Chelsea reintegrate troubled players with very little push back from the public. It's not crazy to think we could have done the same.
If Poch turns Chelsea into a title challenging team I'll hold up my hands and say I was wrong. I'm not married to my opinion and my opinion tends to change over time.
Currently I see ETH as a better fit for us than Poch but I do respect your opinion.
Edit: I thought Arteta was rubbish but he's proved me wrong.
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I think ten Hag, like van Gaal and Mourinho, is a good enough manager for Manchester United. I don't think any of them are good enough to succeed under the Glazers Manchester United.
The same issues keep occuring, new lows reached, and we keep having the same pointless debates. Ultimately, none of the managers are blameless, but also none are given the type of platform needed to quickly succeed at the top level. They do get some funds for new signings (usually late in a window) and some say over who leaves or who stays, but this is always staggered over more time than we have. Invariably the manager has to make do with players they didn't want or didn't want to keep. Preseasons are focused on commercial obligations ahead of football preparation. Compromise, compromise, compromise.
And that could even potentially work over a long enough time frame, if expectations are kept in check. But we are under so much constant scrutiny, constant focus by the footballing world, that's just not a luxury they ever get. It's a vicious cycle and it won't be broken under these owners. God, it's depressing.
The same issues keep occuring, new lows reached, and we keep having the same pointless debates. Ultimately, none of the managers are blameless, but also none are given the type of platform needed to quickly succeed at the top level. They do get some funds for new signings (usually late in a window) and some say over who leaves or who stays, but this is always staggered over more time than we have. Invariably the manager has to make do with players they didn't want or didn't want to keep. Preseasons are focused on commercial obligations ahead of football preparation. Compromise, compromise, compromise.
And that could even potentially work over a long enough time frame, if expectations are kept in check. But we are under so much constant scrutiny, constant focus by the footballing world, that's just not a luxury they ever get. It's a vicious cycle and it won't be broken under these owners. God, it's depressing.
De jong is the only one on that list we know he wanted and he did not want to come and couldn't have made that any clearer.
Should we have kidnapped him at gunpoint?
The rest are media talk and we don't know who wanted them here if anyone.
As for who we did sign again you can't seriously think they were the club's choices and not Ten Hag.
He seems incapable of wanting any be player he hasn't worked with before or who he saw while he was in the dutch league.
The biggest mistake we made in signings was listening to him and bringing in the players he wanted
This is such a disingenuous post.
It's not ETH's job to recruit players. He probably said he needs a keeper and the club bought him Onana after Maignan was too expensive.
With regards to Sancho, what is the manager supposed to do in that situation? Nothing ETH said in that interview was over the top. Sancho made the mistake not ETH.
How do you know ETH prioritized Mount? The priority last summer was DeJong, a very different player. It all stinks of no long term strategy set in place by the clubs senior management.
I know it sounds repetitive and an easy out to blame the Glazers but they're the common denominator here, not any one coach and certainly not ETH.
You are right he should not have that much input on the signings and that is the biggest mistake that we allowed to happen.
However that doesn't change the fact we grossly overpaid for players only he wanted.
I haven't seen any obvious tactical flaws. I'll give you, that I expect more in game adjustments when he sees things aren't working out but lets not act as if he has the world of options on the bench. Don't get me wrong, of course he takes a share of the blame after a bad game but I don't think, this particular game was one where he missed out. What would you say where the flaws? And don't tell me, he should have set us up deeper and more compact. Granted, if I were him, that would have been my idea but who knows if it would have resulted in anything different and there would have been just as many questioning this.
Bayern was the better side, better individual performances and better organized, it shouldn't be like that but he won't achieve that within 3 days when the Brighton game showed similar issues and more or less the games before as well.
Yes, we should be better but that isn't just down to him. I would have hoped he would have made a more striking effect and some of the things you criticize I take issue with as well but as long as we are talking about last game, we need a bit of perspective. And for this particular game he was the main issue (at least I haven't notice it, individual mistakes and lacking determination were the reasons and I am pretty positive about this not being one of ETHs wishes for the game).
Overall, I can see your points but I think, you are taking some of the things a little too easy. The injury list isn't just down to him. The Sancho story isn't just on him - for all we know, there is talk of problematic behaviour from Sancho dated even back to Dortmund. When the manager isn't consequential you would probably criticize him for it as well. I get it, you are heated, you want somebody to take responsibility for it. But the manager alones shouldn't be your target. He is only part of pretty dysfunctional aparatus and all this talk about replacing him would make more sense, if there would be any reason to trust the decision makers to find somebody who could magically turn everything to stardust.
Check my post history, I am certainly not an apologist, I was at the forefront of Ole critics before it become mainstream and I was doubtful of the (partly) hollow praise for ETH as well. But we have to find a healthy medium.
So even you can recognise that the money probably hasn't been well spent. Regarding the structure, ETH had the option of having a renowned DoF/Sporting Director in place in Ralf Rangnick, but he opted against it. That would have been a very good start to have somebody with that reputation and experience to help rebuild the club. And we can only speculate as to why that wasn't appealing to ETH, but the actual answer is probably right there ie. He wanted control over signings. This was even mentioned as one of his request for taking on the job. So he is a much to blame for our structure not working, because he's effectively made part of Murtoughs role redundant.
Obviously there's questions over Murtough's abilities and why he would allow this, along with the potential issue over continuity if/ when ETH does leave. But this is an issue largely contributed to by ETH.
And I don't care what happened at other clubs with reintegration of troubled players. Nothing was as public or incriminating as the MG situation and it was obvious what would happen. The only other public case was Mendy at City - what happened there? He was sent packing. MG was never just walking back in without backlash.
yet you didn't answer my question
.Who's going to replace him? Take in mind that person will have to deal with the same shit ETH currently dealing with.
- New manager is pragmatic because he doesn't have players that he wants > Supporters whine, 0 constructive criticism
- New manager get players he wants but also have to move previous players away. Club is inefficient of doing so > Supporters whine, 0 constructive criticism
- New players have hard time to set in and can't get immediate results. Also huge disruption from squad change > Supporters whine, 0 constructive criticism
- Repeat step one and start new cycle.
After 10 years. Have you ever tired of this shit? If not, name that savior's name, just one and I'll be gladly playing that game.
The huge mistake that ETH made was overly confident that he would fix this and didn't need help. In hindsight, he should've consulted with Ole and and Rangsnick but this fanbase was also glad that he didn't, with the same argument as above "they are shit managers", so whose fault was it?
Until football structure overhaul, no point changing manager every fricking two years. ETH is still a modern progressive coach, even if he's shit, United as a club still moving away from dinosaur approach, for the first time and will have good base for the next one.
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