Yeah, think I was amongst the minority that didn't like us binning off Rangnick's planned consultancy role. As poor as he was as a coach I did feel finally relieved we were looking to bring in a proper footballing head at the operational side of things. I also didn't share the same enthusiasm when Ten Hag decided he wanted nothing to do with him and decided to go at it alone, that concerned me at the time and it looks like that concern was dignified considering his questionable transfer strategy.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Actually some nice chances until the last decision ...
I think we have to keep him and ride out this slump. Truth is, we don't know why the team is playing so poorly, it could be the noise around the club, injuries, change in system - too many distractions where we need to make things simple. But he has a real problem on his hands, that is for sure. I think he's a good enough manager to turn it around though.
The moment ETH wanted that, was the moment we should have withdrawn EtH’s offer. It is not ETH’s business who is his boss, or to rearrange positions that are not under him. His role should be limited to coaching the players, selecting the squad and preparing the squad, not who is in the football structure that theoretically is above him.
That should have also been the end of Murtough. The plan was nice: take a proven DoF to assist Murtough with the main squad while Murtough concentrates on the other aspects of the club (academy, women’s squad etc). But the new God decided that he doesn’t want Ralf there, and Murtough binned the plan. Then the new God decided that he wants to sign half of the Dutch league and Murtough said ‘yes sir’. As a weak DoF as you are ever going to find.
It is beyond madness that we still do things this way. It is a 21st century club stuck in the 20th century and being surprised that it ain’t competing with 21st century clubs.
He's on the ropes. Hopefully he comes out punching.
Needs to learn how to change it up during the game though.
Needs to learn how to change it up during the game though.
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yeah I agree. He has had to deal with a lot so far in this job and has been on the ropes before and has come out punching for sure.
however, in game management and making changes is only possible if you look at the bench and see some game changers.
unfortunately we have v few and the ones we do have are injured, suspended or on loan or watching under18 games while refusing to apologise.
I feel for the guy to be honest. It’s not easy right now for him.
No I just apparently can't read and got my dates mixed up. So we can replace that bit in my post with "had an unfinished season at Shakhtar due to the invasion", but it doesn't exactly revolutionise his CV, nor therefore alter the point.
It's a moot point. There is zero chance of Ten Hag being sacked any time soon.
He overperformed massively last season by getting United in to third place.
He will almost certainly be here until the end of the season.
He overperformed massively last season by getting United in to third place.
He will almost certainly be here until the end of the season.
Definitely not easy.
He is having to deal with many impacting distractions, all at one time, many of which a manager will never have to deal with over their entire careers.
Doesn't help that his new men (Mount, Amrabat and Hojlund - started 1 game) all started here with injuries. We haven't been able to get any momentum.
He's a very good manager, we're lucky to have him given the circus that he has to front.
According to Planetfootball.com - overall table for PL clubs who have been in the PL since ETH arrived:
1. Manchester City – 104 points, GD +72
2. Arsenal – 94 points, GD +49 (played 42)
3. Manchester United – 81 points, GD +11
4. Liverpool – 80 points, GD +36
5. Newcastle United – 77 points, GD +36
6. Brighton – 74 points, GD +27
7. Tottenham – 73 points, GD +15
8. Aston Villa – 70 points, GD +6
9. Brentford – 65 points, GD +14
10. Fulham – 59 points, GD -3
11. Crystal Palace – 52 points, GD -10
12. West Ham United – 50 points, GD -12
13. Chelsea – 48 points, GD -9 (played 42)
14. Wolves – 44 points, GD -33
15. Nottingham Forest – 44 points, GD -30 (played 42)
16. Bournemouth – 41 points, GD -38 (played 42)
17. Everton – 37 points, GD -29 (played 42)
Considering City and Arsenal were literally years ahead in their team building ETH having us as 'best of the rest' is not to be sniffed at, despite how dire results are atm...
1. Manchester City – 104 points, GD +72
2. Arsenal – 94 points, GD +49 (played 42)
3. Manchester United – 81 points, GD +11
4. Liverpool – 80 points, GD +36
5. Newcastle United – 77 points, GD +36
6. Brighton – 74 points, GD +27
7. Tottenham – 73 points, GD +15
8. Aston Villa – 70 points, GD +6
9. Brentford – 65 points, GD +14
10. Fulham – 59 points, GD -3
11. Crystal Palace – 52 points, GD -10
12. West Ham United – 50 points, GD -12
13. Chelsea – 48 points, GD -9 (played 42)
14. Wolves – 44 points, GD -33
15. Nottingham Forest – 44 points, GD -30 (played 42)
16. Bournemouth – 41 points, GD -38 (played 42)
17. Everton – 37 points, GD -29 (played 42)
Considering City and Arsenal were literally years ahead in their team building ETH having us as 'best of the rest' is not to be sniffed at, despite how dire results are atm...
There was a period last season (I think about half way through) that whenever he would make a change from the bench, it would come off. He was getting praised for his ability to change a game when it wasn't going to plan, or we were struggling to break a team down.
I really don't know what's gone wrong with him, some of the decisions he makes are just so bizarre.
I really don't know what's gone wrong with him, some of the decisions he makes are just so bizarre.
You're misrepresenting the game with those stats. I suspect it's deliberate but assuming not, they aren't a fair representation - the vast majority of shots on target, xG, possession, and passes came when they were ahead and we were chasing the game.
If you have a look at the timing chart on understat (game here: https://understat.com/match/21940) you'll see that as late as the 77th minute we had a slightly higher xG. Ours probably should have been higher too given some better decision making, particularly from Rashford who was isolated against a CB multiple times.
Brighton are excellent front runners, and it was a perfect storm given their comfort on the ball, along our lack of athleticism due to players being out and having to gamble on the ball to chase the game.
We’ve had an absolute fecking tonne of bad luck this season. It’s infuriating. Some of it isn’t ‘luck’ though and could have been avoided.
Usual shite with transfers. It started off well, but not getting Hojland and Amrabat till so late is an absolute killer. We’re now learning on the fly how to play with a completely different striker to last season, with huge Champions League games coming up, having played two big rivals away already.
Pre season was quite clearly a mess. Far too much travel, the first 11 barely played together and it doesn’t seem like players got enough 90 minutes under their belt. This led to the pathetic performance against Wolves, setting the tone for the start of the season.
Following on from that, nine first team players are unavailable, which is almost unheard of in September. I’m not even counting Martial not playing a minute in pre season, Hojland not being able to complete 90, or VDB (who knows where he is). Imagine most squads having nine fecking players unavailable.
Then you’ve got the luck in games. The Garnacho and Rashford moments could have been such big swings in momentum. It’s not skill or tactics, just pure bad luck when you’re having goals ruled out by millimetres.
All of that said, I expected far more from Ten Hag in terms of the coaching and how we play tactically. The pressure could reach fever pitch levels after Bayern, ahead of a night game at Turf Moor, where you know it’ll be hostile.
Usual shite with transfers. It started off well, but not getting Hojland and Amrabat till so late is an absolute killer. We’re now learning on the fly how to play with a completely different striker to last season, with huge Champions League games coming up, having played two big rivals away already.
Pre season was quite clearly a mess. Far too much travel, the first 11 barely played together and it doesn’t seem like players got enough 90 minutes under their belt. This led to the pathetic performance against Wolves, setting the tone for the start of the season.
Following on from that, nine first team players are unavailable, which is almost unheard of in September. I’m not even counting Martial not playing a minute in pre season, Hojland not being able to complete 90, or VDB (who knows where he is). Imagine most squads having nine fecking players unavailable.
Then you’ve got the luck in games. The Garnacho and Rashford moments could have been such big swings in momentum. It’s not skill or tactics, just pure bad luck when you’re having goals ruled out by millimetres.
All of that said, I expected far more from Ten Hag in terms of the coaching and how we play tactically. The pressure could reach fever pitch levels after Bayern, ahead of a night game at Turf Moor, where you know it’ll be hostile.
They were ahead from the 20th minute, so from very early.
I seem to recall some of our Ajax supporters saying something similar when he first joined them then everything clicked, maybe one of them could remind us.
I certainly don't think we should sack him who else is out there?whoever we get he'll want his own players and the cycle continues.
It's clear injuries are killing us, I expect to see an improvement when everyone is fit then we can judge him properly.
I certainly don't think we should sack him who else is out there?whoever we get he'll want his own players and the cycle continues.
It's clear injuries are killing us, I expect to see an improvement when everyone is fit then we can judge him properly.
The biggest worry for me is if they do eventually press the button and sack him the new manager wouldn't want any of the players ETH has actually bought.
Yep, the absolute farce continues. We give managers free reign, keep them too long and next one inherits an even greater mess. Just a joke. Antony would be cut for sure, despite fee and wages
We got thrashed 1-6 against City because Evans got sent off.
And we did have a good spell last season. With obvious weaknesses. We all thought that a couple of tweaks to improve those weaknesses would lift us, but Ten Hag instead went backwards by trying to change the whole team. When we were playing well, but with Weghorst and then Martial - it was clear to us all that a top striker would improve us plenty. All we needed was a top centre forward and a top midfielder and we’d have been far better than last year. Ten Hag instead over-complicated the summer window.
But as you note its not look. Our preseason seems to have been horrendous, too much travel and players look unfit. Last season he massively overplayed the core players which is now coming back to haunt us. As for transfers, seems ETH largely got what he wanted. so the buck for that sits with him. We need to stop whining about luck.
Well the two VAR goals were just bad luck at pivotal times in games, I don’t think there’s much denying that. Ten Hag might have got wanted he wanted in the transfer market but he certainly didn’t want it so late. It’s shameful that the club started the season with no fit striker again.
We were all expecting 4 or 5 departures to clear some of the underperforming players, yet they’re all still here and all playing games - apart from VDB. These are players that no other top clubs want, yet we are expected to be a top club.
Just had to read literally the next paragraph. Then again it probably wouldn't matter, you're set in your opinion, and misrepresenting the match stats was clearly deliberate
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Appreciate what he did for us last season, so that kind of secured his seat for this season, unless he perform below the least expectation he earned of himself for this season:
- sit comfortably above relegation zone by Christmas
- finished above mid table zone (8th to 12th -ish) by end of this season
That’s really not much to ask for. Anything below that, deserve immediate sacking. And that’s the lowest requirement ever given to any manager in post Fergie era.
- sit comfortably above relegation zone by Christmas
- finished above mid table zone (8th to 12th -ish) by end of this season
That’s really not much to ask for. Anything below that, deserve immediate sacking. And that’s the lowest requirement ever given to any manager in post Fergie era.
The ETH situation is a symptom, sacking him would not cure the club. This club needs a restart, too much bad culture, too many bad habits. As long as the Glazers poison this club, we will see no success, no identity, no moral...
Scoring 30+ goals, for a team which doesn't really score too many, a team that happens to be one of the biggest clubs in the world, and add to that, the quality of his play and the different types of goals he scored.. then yes, I would suggest he was sensational last season.
ETH now has to understand the EPL is unforgiving, he’s had 43 games lost 12, only drawn 6 and won 25 so by now he should understand the league.
First stage is to be difficult to beat by competing at every level, a good shape in the transitional periods. We need to make sure the spine is physical, settled and he needs to forget about a 4-1-2-3 formation and concentrate on a 4-2-3-1 with Any two from Casemiro, K Mainoo , Hanibal, Mctominay and Sofran Amrabat.
We need to get the front 4 scoring more goals so we need more work on the training pitch, with Rashford, Sancho, Garnaucho, Pellistri, Mount competing for wide spaces and working on one two touch football and patterns of play.
And Bruno, Ericsen, Mount, Sancho should be our only options for Number 10 with Hojlund, Martial and Rashford rotating for number 9 I don’t like the options but if we use the 5 sub rule we should be able to start scoring more goals than the pathetic 6 we’ve scored so far.
My point is that if your difficult to score against and you have all the options for the front four places where you can start 4 players and bring 2 or 3 on and start 2 in the midfield and bring one on, you still have one or two defensive subs available.
This is on ETH he’s picking and setting up the team completely wrong and if he doesn’t change he’ll get sacked, a 5-0 or
6-0 to City or Liverpool is never acceptable but if your team is lingering in mid table and that happens, you get Sacked, simple!
First stage is to be difficult to beat by competing at every level, a good shape in the transitional periods. We need to make sure the spine is physical, settled and he needs to forget about a 4-1-2-3 formation and concentrate on a 4-2-3-1 with Any two from Casemiro, K Mainoo , Hanibal, Mctominay and Sofran Amrabat.
We need to get the front 4 scoring more goals so we need more work on the training pitch, with Rashford, Sancho, Garnaucho, Pellistri, Mount competing for wide spaces and working on one two touch football and patterns of play.
And Bruno, Ericsen, Mount, Sancho should be our only options for Number 10 with Hojlund, Martial and Rashford rotating for number 9 I don’t like the options but if we use the 5 sub rule we should be able to start scoring more goals than the pathetic 6 we’ve scored so far.
My point is that if your difficult to score against and you have all the options for the front four places where you can start 4 players and bring 2 or 3 on and start 2 in the midfield and bring one on, you still have one or two defensive subs available.
This is on ETH he’s picking and setting up the team completely wrong and if he doesn’t change he’ll get sacked, a 5-0 or
6-0 to City or Liverpool is never acceptable but if your team is lingering in mid table and that happens, you get Sacked, simple!
This. But you could you imagine the fan outcry if that happened?
How much of a toxic shitshow our fans would've made out of that situation?
I do feel a bit sorry for the board above. They're weak and piss poor, but they're also trying to give the fans what they want. Unfortunately, what the fans want is just plain wrong. Football's left the Manchester United fanbase behind.
It's too early to sack him yet after winning the carabao last season, along with being comfortable top 4 and another cup final.
Let's get the players back and see how we look around Xmas.
Let's get the players back and see how we look around Xmas.
No he wasn't. He had a purple patch.
I didn't see the Brighton game as I was driving, and i'll be damned to watch the "highlights" after knowing the result.
I've seen a clip of Rashford strolling about pretending to be closing down, but just going through the motions, and not making any serious effort, and my first thought was, has ETH lost the dressing room, are these players trying to get him sacked?
I've played football at a very good amateur level, obviously nowhere near these players, but it was always instilled from a very young age that you run yourself ragged for your team, closing down opponents and not allowing them time to play. It absolutely bemuses me that players at this level, don't seem to be able to grasp that very basic concept.
I've seen a clip of Rashford strolling about pretending to be closing down, but just going through the motions, and not making any serious effort, and my first thought was, has ETH lost the dressing room, are these players trying to get him sacked?
I've played football at a very good amateur level, obviously nowhere near these players, but it was always instilled from a very young age that you run yourself ragged for your team, closing down opponents and not allowing them time to play. It absolutely bemuses me that players at this level, don't seem to be able to grasp that very basic concept.
Sacking EtH would be the worst thing we can do. We can't keep resetting everything every few years. He deserves a minimum of three years.
I remember Arteta losing 6 games on the bounce in his second season. Things take time, we just need to be patient.
I remember Arteta losing 6 games on the bounce in his second season. Things take time, we just need to be patient.
amateur level football often comes down to dogfights as the skill level tends to be comparatively low. Not to say there aren’t skilled players there or that professional football isn’t also often decided by grunt work - however; some players at professional level are afforded the leeway - and sometimes even instructed to save their energy for attacking runs/work etc. I don’t know if this is the case with Rashford though.
Sacking ETH would be madness right now, he's at the very least earned the right to see this season out, if at the end of the campaign there isn't anything to suggest we are on the right path then it might be a different story.
One thing that is worrying is that we have continued to have the same terrible brand of football under ETH that we had under previous managers for the majority of his tenure.
I could overlook the odd defeat if we were showing signs of implementing new systems with new ideas and, most importantly, if the football was entertaining.
One thing that is worrying is that we have continued to have the same terrible brand of football under ETH that we had under previous managers for the majority of his tenure.
I could overlook the odd defeat if we were showing signs of implementing new systems with new ideas and, most importantly, if the football was entertaining.
Having watched the game, it's not really on Rashford that our press was played around so easily. His problem was what it's always been - he was selfish with the ball. Hopefully he can develop an understanding with Hojlund, otherwise we aren't going to be scoring many.
I've also been at professional clubs such as West Ham & Southampton, and that concept was no different to when I was playing for Billericay Town or Dagenham, or even Essex u11s...I don't know when that ethic of hard team work got lost?
Really, what is the point of sacking him. Hes been doing alright. Fans needs to realize now that at this age and era, there is no SAF manager style no more. United has to restructure from the top down and that needs investment, major one. With Glazers and the chaos we have with upper managment, there is no singer coach or manager in the world can succees here. De Zerbi or any others will just be another EtH or the ones before him. We sacked him, hire another, and next year sack again.
De Zerbi is just a just a flavor of the month name that we comes up with because we think manager/coach can miraculously making United competes and win trophies again when we have an unbalance and dire squade compares to other clubs. We have now to question not the manager but the top managment team, players and owners. This is a situation that been cul.inating since 10 years ago and now we see the results of it that blown up in our faces with all the matters that been happening to the club.
If we can do a Chelsea and start with a clean slate from top down, i would be happy to do it immediately. I rather us not win anything for the next 2/3 years, than watching us dying a slow death. The club is reeling slowly into the realm of irrelevance.
De Zerbi is just a just a flavor of the month name that we comes up with because we think manager/coach can miraculously making United competes and win trophies again when we have an unbalance and dire squade compares to other clubs. We have now to question not the manager but the top managment team, players and owners. This is a situation that been cul.inating since 10 years ago and now we see the results of it that blown up in our faces with all the matters that been happening to the club.
If we can do a Chelsea and start with a clean slate from top down, i would be happy to do it immediately. I rather us not win anything for the next 2/3 years, than watching us dying a slow death. The club is reeling slowly into the realm of irrelevance.
I would sack a few of our "stars" before I'd sack ETH.
I am not saying he should be immune to criticism. Am I happy about the current state of his management, and about the development the team has taken over the last half a year? No.
But still let us break down your argument.
1. Over those 60 games, long spells were very good. We also had deep cup runs and won one. All in all, last season has to be classified as a successful one, in no easy circumstances. To start off, this has to be punctuated with a period.
2. About the money spent, most of it was to replace outgoing players. Matic, Pogba, Lingard, Ronaldo, and then De Gea, Bailly, Jones, Tuanzebe all left on free transfers. Fred, Elanga, Telles left for very little money. Obviously in order to replace them or even begin to try to improve the squad, money had to be invested. In that context, 400m really is not incredibly much.
Has that money been invested wisely? Partly yes, partly no, partly doubtful.
- The investments in Casemiro, Lisandro and Onana were necessary and good. Lisandro is quality and a fighter, exactly what the team needed. Casemiro was a great addition last season, a seasoned world class player to upgrade on Matic. The GK position desperately needed action, and we signed the GK of a CL finalist.
- The investment in Antony has not turned out to be good. Malacia, unconvincing but not terrible as a squad player.
- Mount, Amrabat and Höjlund, it makes no sense to judge them, as they have been injured and Höjlund is a kid just getting his first games. Mount is a hard-working, yet creative and forward-thinking midfielder whom just a year ago, in light of his heroics under Tuchel, would have commanded a much larger fee. Will he be the right choice, we do not know yet, but it is certainly not an absurd or wrong transfer to have made.
If you ask me, Höjlund was baffingly expensive, but let us not pretend that the striker market is ripe with bargains, and arguably the state of this position in the squad would have required even more investment.
But there we arrive at the nexus of Ten Hag's management and the overall club management at DoF and CEO level, which is quite clearly where the problems lie.
- The squad is riddled with problems stemming from the chaotic period our club has been going through. Manager recruitment has been confused, opportunistic, ill-timed, and so has been player recruitment. We are paying the price in that the squad is patchy, uneven and has basically been a value- and talent-destroying deadwood generator. Clearly that affects squad building - getting rid of players is unprofitable and difficult, restraining possibilities to get new ones. With regards to that last point, it does not help that the club negotiators have suddenly discovered the need to take a hard line on fees when it would be needed to get rid of a player. Of course, better negotiating and not being taken for mugs is what we all were screaming for, but holding out for more money just out of a sense of pride does not seem intelligent when it keeps us from moving on. But obviously I do not know the fine print and insides of finances, negotiations and FFP requirements.
- The club has attempted a structural shift/update with the position of a DoF and the change of CEO, albeit without bringing in proven expertise from the outside. I was willing, and sort of still am, to give Murtough a chance, but the input into squad planning and its execution from the DoF position is looking very questionable. Signings still tend to be opportunistic (Casemiro and Mount, even if both are quality additions and there is nothing wrong with taking opportunities) and there is no sense of a strategic and shrewd squad building apart from plugging present holes. It seems reactive, and many transfers came very late in the windows.
- In the absence of a proactive DoF line, there is a somewhat worrying tendency to amend squad planning by bringing in players Ten Hag knows. Now, DoF-manager constructs are always difficult to balance, and part of that balance should indeed be to let the manager have a couple of players he favours even if consequent scouting would suggest other alternatives. After all, the manager needs to engineer team chemistry and for that, his judgement and confidence is vital. But it does look like we need more expertise and decisiveness from the DoF side to balance squad building if, as the case of Antony shows, the manager gets it wrong, as can and will happen.
The DoF was installed by the board and works within the parameters set by them. Either he is just an extension of their general obtuseness towards running a football club (having been promoted from within), or rather his ability to act competently, decisively and proactively is hampered by that obtuseness. I am assuming it is a mixture of both, with the weight on the latter.
Because there is the main problem:
The club has been put up for sale, in the middle of Ten Hag's first season. If our owners were not much interested in Man Utd's essence as a football club before, they are now not at all so. The grave situation is that we are owned and run by people who are not invested in the club's future at all. It is not hard to conclude that this also means a reluctance or downright refusal to make consequential decisions and investments into the squad, instead we have been chasing cheapskate loans for anything other than the most needed core additions. That is the hand Murtough has been dealt, one year into his tenure. It also means board, CEO, DoF have no clear future at the club which surely can only add to the sense of disconnect between club, fans, manager, and board.
So are we going to acknowledge the severity of this situation, the hand that has been dealt to Ten Hag, or are we really going to senselessly debate about his sacking? Ten Hag was the right hire, he is a quality manager. He is not the only quality manager out there, but he is not the problem.
To adress your point about his tactics, he seems to be struggling, and I cannot help but feel this is connected to him trying to be pragmatic. Whether that is the right approach, I do not know, arguably the circumstances of the squad are not favourable for the free-spirited and commanding tactical reset we were expecting. But he has shown resiliance before, and he deserves our continuing if critical support. So do our players.
That being said, after the Bayern game, where really there is nothing to be lost, we have four games against weak opponents. Away to Burnley and Sheffield, home to Palace and Brentford. We need 12 points from those, nothing less, and no excuses.
Not even refereeing.
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