Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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spiriticon said:
Why does this idea gets repeated all the time even after the club has fired 5 managers in the last 10 years, some of whom have had better first seasons than Ten Hag?

We are a 'results now or get fired' club and it's probably time to accept that...
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Well, if you look up the definition of insanity, it might provide a clue.
 
spiriticon said:
Why does this idea gets repeated all the time even after the club has fired 5 managers in the last 10 years, some of whom have had better first seasons than Ten Hag?

We are a 'results now or get fired' club and it's probably time to accept that...
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Yep, Woody led LVG out the back and old yellerd him right after the FA cup win.
 
Sarni said:
I genuinely wanted to say that but given the affection people on here feel for Ten Hag and even more so Martinez, I resisted that urge. Heinze is an apt comparison I also wanted to make as I think he is basically the same player - he fights, he hustles but once we actually get someone good in his position (like we did with Evra) we will realize he was never that good.
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No need to hold your tongue just cause it is unpopular. 18 months from now, and everyone will be saying that.
 
Eriksen and Cas didn’t work in controlling games last year so replacing Eriksen with yet another AM in Mount makes literally no sense at all

De Jong was the type of player we need in there so why can’t we find someone in his mould?

Weve wasted money on flair wingers instead of sorting out the engine room which makes no sense at all
 
What annoys me the most is that the poor start was forgiven, the Liverpool embarrassment, the Seville horror show and the drop off, as well as the poor away form.

It’s a new manager, he is molding his squad, he is getting to know the players etc…

The one thing you would want, or you would hope he has learned, was to get the players fit and ready to not repeat the early season games from last year.

Absolutely no change. If the players aren’t even fit, I can’t buy into whatever it is that is being attempted. It’s the bare minimum and it makes me wonder if he actually knows what he is doing.

It’s not knee jerk, it’s the realization that the excuses from last season were just that. Other teams with far fewer resources look much better prepared physically. That is damning for a coach supposed to be at one of the premier clubs in the country. There is no excuse for it. It’s amateur.
 
Revan said:
No need to hold your tongue just cause it is unpopular. 18 months from now, and everyone will be saying that.
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He might not be world class but he's solid as hell. He's definitely not started the season well though.

His ability to get out of tight spaces, drop a shoulder and accelerate our play from defence has been underrated from last season and now that he's not doing it as well, you can see the difference.
 
Revan said:
Not currently a popular opinion on Caf, but I genuinely think that Martinez won’t start under the new manager. He has too many weaknesses in his game. Likely would be a quite good squad player but he is essentially an expensive Heinze, Blind, Ake level of player.
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Agree. Good on the ball but we don't really see the benefit of it because the tactics seem to be treat the ball like it's on fire.

There's a reason City play at least 3 big, quick CBs at the back these days, (plus Rodri) Peps realised how important physicality is in the league. Ten Hag definitely hasn't.
 
Maluco said:
What annoys me the most is that the poor start was forgiven, the Liverpool embarrassment, the Seville horror show and the drop off, as well as the poor away form.

It’s a new manager, he is molding his squad, he is getting to know the players etc…

The one thing you would want, or you would hope he has learned, was to get the players fit and ready to not repeat the early season games from last year.

Absolutely no change. If the players aren’t even fit, I can’t buy into whatever it is that is being attempted. It’s the bare minimum and it makes me wonder if he actually knows what he is doing.

It’s not knee jerk, it’s the realization that the excuses from last season were just that. Other teams with far fewer resources look much better prepared physically. That is damning for a coach supposed to be at one of the premier clubs in the country. There is no excuse for it. It’s amateur.
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Yeah I can't see past those things either, and to sweep them under the rug is just mental.
 
Revan said:
Not currently a popular opinion on Caf, but I genuinely think that Martinez won’t start under the new manager. He has too many weaknesses in his game. Likely would be a quite good squad player but he is essentially an expensive Heinze, Blind, Ake level of player.
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Not sure about this. He's definitely been overhyped by United fans who are trying to over-correct for the opposition fans taking digs at him and the people that wrongly written him off before he joined. But if a manager hypothetically actually gets us passing the ball like a top team would probably bring out the best of Martinez as he'd have more opportunities to showcase his skills on the ball, have less defending to do, and would hopefully build a team with a front 6 capable of providing some protection to it's defence (which we don't have at the moment).

Weirdly I was mostly concerned about his height when he signed but it's become a non-issue completely for me. It's his lack of pace that's his biggest weakness.
 
Lay said:
Tottenham sold their star striker and are playing Richarilson yet look decent enough
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Richarlison would walk into our team though. He’d probably be brilliant too. He’s a class player. Not like for like with Kane of course, but he’s a great Number 9.
 
hobbers said:
LVG improved us and then went to shit. Mourinho improved us, won two cups then lost the plot. Ole vastly improved us and nearly won half a dozen cups but ultimately built the most spineless feckless bloated squad the club has ever had.

Cant blame people for seeing the writing early at this point
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We finished lower in the league in joses first season than we did the season prior to him joining. The football served up for the most part was absolute dog shit and we made it into the UCL via the back door despite signing pogba for a then record and having an all time great striker in the side.

ETH is doing fine for now. We're 2 games in, teams have teething problems with systems and I suspect our transfer business isn't finished yet either given the start we've had. People are losing their minds despite what was produced last season. If we're still playing terrible by the end of September then I'd be worried.
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
Didn’t watch the game. Style of play? Any combinations?
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We had the beating of Porro down out left. That’s the one area of the pitch that we could have exploited, and failed to. We missed one sitter that may have changed the game. A couple of other chances.

It was a ‘goals change games’ match but we can’t complain we lost.

Probably should have had an early pen. Wan-Bisakka was great in the middle third. Hit and miss in the other two. Onana was great. Midfield was an abomination. Antony anonymous. Rashford turned in his standard awful Number 9 shift.

There are green shoots but it’s rough to watch us fade with every passing ten minutes as the oppo gets better, and see no changes made.

Bruno was a shower and looked lost.
 
Can’t believe what I’m seeing about martinez in here. Was absolutely brilliant until his injury, and I’m sure he’ll get back to those levels.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Richarlison would walk into our team though. He’d probably be brilliant too. He’s a class player. Not like for like with Kane of course, but he’s a great Number 9.
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yeah a great #9 with 0 attempts at goal today an an all round average performance.
 
holdsteady said:
Because we aren't close to being in the position where our results should be guaranteed wins
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Certainly aren't but finishing 3rd and winning a first trophy for 6 years last season raised the expectations and made some think United was back to a team we can trust to be consistent and beat teams you are expected to beat by a bit to spare, in reality aren't close to that level.
 
Remember the geese said:
In what world? Simply never been the case.
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He really is. For his type. He’s no replacement for Kane. He’ll never be the 20 goals a season guy. But he’s busy, has a great first touch, moves well, is a nuisance at set pieces, bullies defenders and is generally a bastard to play against.

He’s a better 9 than anyone we have. That’s not even a debate.

Not suggesting he’s world class, but I think Ange will get him performing as he does with Brazil and that’s a level we haven’t seen from a Centre Forward at United in close to a decade.
 
Garethw said:
Why do we look so tactically clueless though?

I was under the impression that ETH was some master tactician.

I just don’t see any improvement at all in the last 12 months. All of the same issues we saw under Solskjaer are still there.

I know it’s stupid to say, but it really does make you wonder whether the club has been cursed. Manager after manager has spent hundreds of millions of pounds and the football and results have remained awful.
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Think we can put that to bed now. You can never trust the cafe with such emphatic opinions on Dutch League matters. I remember the Poch/Ten Hag thread. Ten Hag was advertised as a tactic master and we were sold on his development of a style. After 14 months it’s clear that probably isn’t one of his stronger managerial points.
 
FriedClams said:
yeah a great #9 with 0 attempts at goal today an an all round average performance.
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Doesn't matter, he's a focal point and creates space for other players, that's our biggest issue, without that it's relatively easy to defend against us
 
FriedClams said:
yeah a great #9 with 0 attempts at goal today an an all round average performance.
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You’ll freely admit that he was the best 9 on the pitch though? We’d have fared better had we had him up top instead of Rashford.

He’s a really good footballer. Again, I said above, I’m not suggesting he’s top drawer. He often occupied Varane and Martinez at the same time. He’s a busy Cnut. Never stays still.

It’d be unfair to say he enabled Son and Maddison to dominate to the level that they did, but I do think it contributed.
 
Too many passengers in this squad, I cannot see any regular goal scorer. How many games has Antony played? He has a few games that he looks great but never consistent. I think he is a wrong buy from ETH, he panic and wanted a left footer player on the right and we overpay. Garnacho is not ready as XI, he should be an impact sub against tired legs, Rashford cannot play as a striker, we need a poacher who puts away easy goals. Mount has been disappointing for a big money signing with 1 year left and I wonder why nobody was competing against us for his signature. Bruno has regress, he was scoring for fun in his first 1.5 season and now he misses an open with keeper to beat. He will score a couple of spectacular goals. Where are those easy goals?????!!!! Everyone passing around the penalty box, it is so easy to defend against this team. My only hope is Hoijund get fit soon to become a target man and something actually start clicking else I see a wasted season. What is FFP? Go sign a couple of players, if we get a fine so be it.
 
Gosh this place is starting to get toxic and negative (understandably so) - chilling reminder of pre-ETH days when we had Ole and RR.

I hope we have a turn of fortunes. Relying on a 20 year old to lead the forward line and resting our success on him isn’t assuring for the immediate future of this club. But let’s hope he hits the ground running and becomes the relevation we urgently need.
 
I've made my feelings clear since early last season, or should I say my worries. It was clear to me in the way he set up that he doesn't value possession and control of a game, or he simply doesn't know how to achieve it in the PL. People that think he made a good possession team at Ajax....go back and look at the stats. Ajax were dominating possession in Eredivisie before he got there when they weren't getting results. He had the Man City of that league, but he doesn't have a team that will dominate through the talent of the players alone anymore. The PL is full of teams that can cause you a problem or exploit weakness.

Having read through this thread, there are a couple of arguments that are worrying me. Firstly is saying we need to sign Amrabat for him. For one, I'm not trusting another of his signings. Especially one that has played for C list clubs their entire career, at best. Signing Amrabat also means he has to abandon his plan after two games. That is a major red flag in terms of his tactical acumen. The other argument is that he needs Hojlund. This is a 20 year old player that shouldn't and probably isn't ready for the level of responsibility and expectation.

The above also points to something I've suspected for a while. ETH has created another team that relies on moments and bits of individual quality to win games. I see no identity or plan. Look at every team doing well in the PL (other than us) over the last 12 months, and they all have a very clear and clever tactical plan. If he was capable, we'd see it by now.

Another argument people are making is that the structure around him needs to change. Well, funnily enough, I complained about our transfer strategy of signing his players just recently in the Murtough thread. I got shouted down because everybody there was so happy with our signings, and I told them that when the shit hits the fan then everyone will point to this. And here we are! But let's not forget, ETH didn't want a DoF type to make transfers and turned down Rangnick. He wanted the power and signed poorly.

Martinez - best signing but started this season a different player and not looking convincing.

Casemiro - too old to pay what we did and rely on him for too long. Like I said at the time, it should have been Caicedo.

Malacia - Not yet even challenged for a spot. Still time but he isn't lookidng likely right now.

Eriksen - was never the player to play the position ETH tries to shoehorn him into. A very short term option but free I suppose.

Anthony - Really struggling to have any impact.

Mount - as soon as i heard we wanted him and how the journos said we intended to use him, alarm bells were ringing for anybody capable of critical thinking. All the worries have come true so far. How he couldn't foresee it is genuinely worrying.

Onana - Jury is out. 2 games in and some decent saves, his ball playing ability hasn't been as evident as I expected, with him punting the ball into orbit more often than not.

Hojlund - jury out but big money for a player that is so unproven. Think he moved for a couple of million euros 12 months ago, now he's suddenly worth £70m? I'm predicting he'll not be an instant revelation that we seemingly need.

Weghorst - Ok it was a loan. But i thiught I'd mention him because he was just so bad and used so much.

Notable shoutout to the players he tried to sign like the racist Arnautovic, which the fans literally had to block, and Brian Brobbey, who is absolutely garbage.

To me this feels like Ole all over again. I could see the (to me) pretty obvious flaws with our manager and their plan. It relied on individuals whilst the manager brought little to the table. I and a few others said for a long time that it will catch up with Ole, which the majority disagreed with. But look what happened. And I can see it already happening here. Last season was littered with bad performances and bad decisions from ETH. Keeping Ronaldo after his behaviour in pre season, insisting on Weghorst for game after game, playing Weghorst at no10 and Bruno RW, all the games where we came out in the second half and looked worse after his team talk, capitulations and heavy defeats, being played off the park by lesser teams, struggling both when pressed and against low block, over playing players until they looked burnt out, even his first two games where he tried suicide-ball as though he'd never watched the PL before. I could go on.

Another thing worth considering is the MG situation. Apparently a number of players don't like him and don't want him. Yet ETH is asking for him back because of his football abilities. Seems really poor man management for a start, but I do wonder if he's lost some players for having this stance. When I watch us, I really don't think the players are playing for him anymore. They have that all too familiar luck of going through the motions.

For me, I've made up my mind and this season and the transfer window had confirmed it. ETH isn't a top class tactician or coach and he won't take us back to the top. I'm almost certain of it. Anybody that still wants to defend him to the hilt, as I said with Ole, you're backing the wrong horse.
 
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UnrelatedPsuedo said:
You’ll freely admit that he was the best 9 on the pitch though? We’d have fared better had we had him up top instead of Rashford.

He’s a really good footballer. Again, I said above, I’m not suggesting he’s top drawer. He often occupied Varane and Martinez at the same time. He’s a busy Cnut. Never stays still.

It’d be unfair to say he enabled Son and Maddison to dominate to the level that they did, but I do think it contributed.
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Think martial did just as much in his cameo tbh. hehe
 
Ludens the Red said:
Think we can put that to bed now. You can never trust the cafe with such emphatic opinions on Dutch League matters. I remember the Poch/Ten Hag thread. Ten Hag was advertised as a tactic master and we were sold on his development of a style. After 14 months it’s clear that probably isn’t one of his stronger managerial points.
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You can't blame them for saying that considering how good his Ajax team was in the champions league, and the fact Poch flopped badly in France.
 
pocco said:
I've made my feelings clear since early last season, or should I say my worries. It was clear to me in the way he set up that he doesn't value possession and control of a game, or he simply doesn't know how to achieve it in the PL. People that think he made a good possession team at Ajax....go back and look at the stats. Ajax were dominating possession in Eredivisie before he got there when they weren't getting results. He had the Man City of that league, but he doesn't have a team that will dominate through the talent of the players alone anymore. The PL is full of teams that can cause you a problem or exploit weakness.

Having read through this thread, there are a couple of arguments that are worrying me. Firstly is saying we need to sign Amrabat for him. For one, I'm not trusting another of his signings. Especially one that has played for C list clubs their entire career, at best. Signing Amrabat also means he has to abandon his plan after two games. That is a major red flag in terms of his tactical acumen. The other argument is that he needs Hojlund. This is a 20 year old player that shouldn't and probably isn't ready for the level of responsibility and expectation.

The above also points to something I've suspected for a while. ETH has created another team that relies on moments and bits of individual quality to win games. I see no identity or plan. Look at every team doing well in the PL (other than us) over the last 12 months, and they all have a very clear and clever tactical plan. If he was capable, we'd see it by now.

Another argument people are making is that the structure around him needs to change. Well, funnily enough, I complained about our transfer strategy of signing his players just recently in the Murtough thread. I got shouted down because everybody there was so happy with our signings, and I told them that when the shit hits the fan then everyone will point to this. And here we are! But let's not forget, ETH didn't want a DoF type to make transfers and turned down Rangnick. He wanted the power and signed poorly.

Martinez - best signing but started this season a different player and not looking convincing.

Casemiro - too old to pay what we did and rely on him for too long. Like I said at the time, it should have been Caicedo.

Malacia - Not yet even challenged for a spot. Still time but he isn't lookidng likely right now.

Eriksen - was never the player to play the position ETH tries to shoehorn him into. A very short term option but free I suppose.

Anthony - Really struggling to have any impact.

Mount - as soon as i heard we wanted him and how the journos said we intended to use him, alarm bells were ringing for anybody capable of critical thinking. All the worries have come true so far. How he couldn't foresee it is genuinely worrying.

Onana - Jury is out. 2 games in and some decent saves, his ball playing ability hasn't been as evident as I expected, with him punting the ball into orbit more often than not.

Hojlund - jury out but big money for a player that is so unproven. Think he moved for a couple of million euros 12 months ago, now he's suddenly worth £70m? I'm predicting he'll not be an instant revelation that we seemingly need.

Weghorst - Ok it was a loan. But i thiught I'd mention him because he was just so bad and used so much.

Notable shoutout to the players he tried to sign like the racist Arnautovic, which the fans literally had to block, and Brian Brobbey, who is absolutely garbage.

To me this feels like Ole all over again. I could see the (to me) pretty obvious flaws with our manager and their plan. It relied on individuals whilst they brought little to the table. I and a few others said for a long time that it will catch up with Ole, which the majority disagreed with. But loom what happened. And I can see it already happening here. Last season was littered with bad performances and bad decisions from ETH. Keeping Ronaldo after his behaviour in pre season, insisting on Weghorst for game after game, playing Weghorst at no10 and Bruno RW, all the games where we came out in the second half and looked worse after his team talk, capitulation and battering, over playing players until they looked burnt out, even his first two games where he tried suicide-ball as though he'd never watched the PL before. I could go on.

Another thing worth considering is the MG situation. Apparently a number of players don't like him and don't want him. Yet ETH is asking for him back because of his football abilities. Seems really poor man management for a start, but I do wonder if he's lost some players for having this stance. When I watch us, I really don't think the players are playing for him anymore. They have that all too familiar luck of going through the motions.

For me, I've made up my mind and this season and the transfer window had confirmed it. ETH isn't a top class tactician it coach and he won't take us back to the top. I'm almost certain of it. Anybody that still wants to defend him to the hilt, as I said with Ole, you're backing the wrong horse.
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Re onana, we have seen two passes against spurs that de get could only have dreamt of.So far, so good. He'll absolutely love having Rashford playing on the left.
 
Don't really care much about pts but it's alarming and giving me PTSD how we're 400M and the second year going and progressively got worse in the basic tactics

Even on the first match of the season players looks lethargic, which shouldn't have happened. It's supposed to be the first game where everyone was supposed to be fresh and eager.

And it amused me how every manager for the last 15 years seems to neglect a gaping hole in our midfield. It pains me to see other manager only need a preseason to get their tactics up and running while ours always needs a rebuild and 11 new players plus backup

I'm starting to believe SAF made a deal with the devil and now we're paying for it.
 
Sky1981 said:
Don't really care much about pts but it's alarming and giving me PTSD how we're 400M and the second year going and progressively got worse in the basic tactics

Even on the first match of the season players looks lethargic, which shouldn't have happened. It's supposed to be the first game where everyone was supposed to be fresh and eager.

And it amused me how every manager for the last 15 years seems to neglect a gaping hole in our midfield. It pains me to see other manager only need a preseason to get their tactics up and running while ours always needs a rebuild and 11 new players plus backup

I'm starting to believe SAF made a deal with the devil and now we're paying for it.
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Exactly. ETH apparently needs an army to get it right whilst other teams have managed to find a style of play in less time.

I don’t even know what the tactic is under ETH. It doesn’t seem that different to Ole. Improvised football banking on some individual moments
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
He really is. For his type. He’s no replacement for Kane. He’ll never be the 20 goals a season guy. But he’s busy, has a great first touch, moves well, is a nuisance at set pieces, bullies defenders and is generally a bastard to play against.

He’s a better 9 than anyone we have. That’s not even a debate.

Not suggesting he’s world class, but I think Ange will get him performing as he does with Brazil and that’s a level we haven’t seen from a Centre Forward at United in close to a decade.
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Don't rate the guy at all. Screams average to me. I'm not interested in busy. Him being better than what we have is nothing to brag about. We have a kid up front and a broken Martial. Although having said that, I'd much rather Højlund over him.

Also his level for Brazil isn't a patch on old man Zlatan, peak Martial, or even Cavani as a number 9. All comfortably within the last decade.
 
FriedClams said:
Re onana, we have seen two passes against spurs that de get could only have dreamt of.So far, so good. He'll absolutely love having Rashford playing on the left.
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Two passes? Time to celebrate. He won't love Rashford on the left because he insists on aiming high balls to Garnacho, and Rashford is equally as meek in the air. I thought we'd bought him for his ability to play out from the back.
 
pocco said:
Two passes? Time to celebrate. He won't love Rashford on the left because he insists on aiming high balls to Garnacho, and Rashford is equally as meek in the air. I thought we'd bought him for his ability to play out from the back.
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He's been brilliant in possession. You aren't watching.
 
pocco said:
Two passes? Time to celebrate. He won't love Rashford on the left because he insists on aiming high balls to Garnacho, and Rashford is equally as meek in the air. I thought we'd bought him for his ability to play out from the back.
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Of all the things to be worried about his distribution is the least of them.
 
pocco said:
Two passes? Time to celebrate. He won't love Rashford on the left because he insists on aiming high balls to Garnacho, and Rashford is equally as meek in the air. I thought we'd bought him for his ability to play out from the back.
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That and the fact he can ping a good long ball.
 
Ayoba said:
I think so too. We had our time under fergie, now it's our turn to suffer. We could have jesus Christ and peps lovechild managing us with Saudis trillions and we would still be shite.
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We’d need Jesus out there on the pitch at least we know he’s good at getting on the end of crosses.
 
Remember the geese said:
He's been brilliant in possession. You aren't watching.
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You honestly must be joking. Against Wolves in particular he was hoofing the ball all game. I had no option but to watch as I was sat in the stand.

But to be honest, I don't think it's an Onana problem because I've seen him do it. Probably our genius manager signing a player that is strong in one area and expecting him to do something else entirely.
 
FriedClams said:
Of all the things to be worried about his distribution is the least of them.
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I don't worry about his ability to do it. But our apparent reluctance to make use of it. The Wolves game in particular when they pressed better than Spurs, long ball clearances one after the other. Weren't we buying him to look for short passes to play our way out of the press? Because that's where he excels.
 
OrcaFat said:
I think his recruitment is good. Antony is underrated imo. Martinez is brilliant. Malacia keeps Shaw honest and does okay when called on. The loans were hit and miss but we didn’t have great options.
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His recruitment has been nothing short of a disaster. £70 million on Casimero, £80 million on Antony, £60 million on Mount. The loans of Weghorst & Sabitzer. He’s spent the best part of £400 million and the only true success has been Martinez. Onana looks promising and Eriksen & Malacia have been decent squad additions. But for the money spent we should have expected so much more.
 
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