[Kostov]

Those things you mentioned are extrinsic and depend heavily on the two intrinsic ones - composure and awareness. For example, in a one-one tackle, you need composure; to mark properly, you need awareness. 95% of the CBs out there can head, tackle, mark etc with ease.
A CB has to be good at those things but without composure and awareness, a CB simply can't be a top one.

Eric Bailly is maybe our best tackler and alongside Smalling our best defender in one on one situations. So how did you come out that he lacks composure then? Based on the penalty against Brighton?

He has shown countless of times how calm he can be on the ball in tight situations, demonstrating extraordinary composure. Awareness can be developed with experience and playing constantly, even though I agree that he should improve in that regards. His general rash of blood, does not mean he lacks composure, there are people who have moments like that. There are composed and CB who have awareness, but lack the defensive instinct, nor have the defensive nous for tackling and marking. 95% of the CB out there don't even come close to bee good enough for playing for a club like Manchester United, Eric Bailly has shown he can match most of the CBs in defending when he is on his game, while his heading is an obvious weakness of course. So that claim is total bullshit if you ask me. Our very own Lindelof can't properly head, tackle nor mark players.

 

[11101]

No, he started this season because Smalling was unfit. There is a reason Smalling is our first choice CB and he's barely fourth choice.
If Mourinho knows he has the most ability of our defenders, he'd be starting every game alongside Smalling at least.

He was on the bench in every game and didn't go to the world cup. He was perfectly fit. Bailly was just selected to start ahead of him.

 

[Mcking]

Eric Bailly is maybe our best tackler and alongside Smalling our best defender in one on one situations. So how did you come out that he lacks composure then? Based on the penalty against Brighton?

He has shown countless of times how calm he can be on the ball in tight situations, demonstrating extraordinary composure. Awareness can be developed with experience and playing constantly, even though I agree that he should improve in that regards. His general rash of blood, does not mean he lacks composure, there are people who have moments like that. There are composed and CB who have awareness, but lack the defensive instinct, nor have the defensive nous for tackling and marking. 95% of the CB out there don't even come close to bee good enough for playing for a club like Manchester United, Eric Bailly has shown he can match most of the CBs in defending when he is on his game, while his heading is an obvious weakness of course. So that claim is total bullshit if you ask me. Our very own Lindelof can't properly head, tackle nor mark players.

Well you did well taking everything literally there. Because composure is all about one on one situations?
In that same Brighton game, he put the ball behind for a corner when a throw-in was comfortably the best choice. Countless times, he just jumps in when being calm and composed was the best thing. Rushed clearances, rushed tackles, rushed leaps into the air. He's too quick to get involved because he's neither calm nor possess the composure to wait for the right time. He might be composed on the ball but off it, he's not.
Good to know you agree on his awareness though as he's absolutely atrocious at that one.

 

[Kostov]

Well you did well taking everything literally there. Because composure is all about one on one situations?
In that same Brighton game, he put the ball behind for a corner when a throw-in was comfortably the best choice. Countless times, he just jumps in when being calm and composed was the best thing. Rushed clearances, rushed tackles, rushed leaps into the air. He's too quick to get involved because he's neither calm nor possess the composure to wait for the right time. He might be composed on the ball but off it, he's not.
Good to know you agree on his awareness though as he's absolutely atrocious at that one.

Well you mentioned it, I just gave you the same example back. Never mind, I really don't think he is perfect or ideal, but he is our bet option alongside Smalling, simply because he is our most talented defender. There are countless examples of missplaced clearances from lots of defenders, you getting hold of hiss rashness while disregarding his obvious talent as a CB tells the story of this discussion. Bailly is far from the finished product, I have issues that he hasn't developed as he should have, which is a shame and it hurts us as a team since we lack a quality CB. But saying he is the worst CB out of the top teams, and bullshit like that is totally agenda driven and frankly, I'm not sure why did I even bother to get into this discussion.

 

[Mcking]

He was on the bench in every game and didn't go to the world cup. He was perfectly fit. Bailly was just selected to start ahead of him.

I was under the impression he was unfit as he sat out the Liverpool game due to injury. Anyway I guess Jose wanted a different style of build up or perhaps to play the two CBs he bought only to realise you have to play defenders that can actually defend.

 

[Mcking]

Well you mentioned it, I just gave you the same example back. Never mind, I really don't think he is perfect or ideal, but he is our bet option alongside Smalling, simply because he is our most talented defender. There are countless examples of missplaced clearances from lots of defenders, you getting hold of hiss rashness while disregarding his obvious talent as a CB tells the story of this discussion. Bailly is far from the finished product, I have issues that he hasn't developed as he should have, which is a shame and it hurts us as a team since we lack a quality CB. But saying he is the worst CB out of the top teams, and bullshit like that is totally agenda driven and frankly, I'm not sure why did I even bother to get into this discussion.

Fairplay.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

No way has Bailly ever dominated opponents like Mike did in 15/16. Mike also did it for a far longer period that year too. Until Bailly has a full season of doing well he can't be said to be better than Smalling

Well said.

Unfortunately there are too many ‘fans’ who just support certain players - and in their eyes they can do no wrong, and subjectivity goes out of the window.

 

[Grande]

Good post.

This new Caf narrative that Fellaini is playing as No6 to protect Lindelöfs ”weakness” is ridicilous IMO.

We had major problems defensively last year as well when it came to long balls, crosses and corners, especially against the ”lesser” teams that play a more direct game.

This despite us having the most physically imposing team in the top 6. Its stupid to put the blame for this on a CB that didnt even play that much last year. You can put equally or more blame at the feet of Matic, Lukaku and Pogba that should do much better due to their physicality. As well as De Gea who still has a lot to do in the area of commanding and dominating his penalty area.

Mourinho was always going to address this problem first and foremost this year. Its probably the area where we conceded the most unnecessary goals last season.

By playing Fellaini there Mourinho has managed to remedy a situation that was a major problem last year. So far. It has very little to do with Lindelöf, who has his plus and minuses as well as the others in what actually is a very even CB-squad. Best form will play as it should be (even if I dont see Mourinho dropping Smalling for the same reason as he is playing Fellaini).

I agree with much of this. The one thing I doubt is wether it is a veiled curse having so many fairly equal CB’s. As it’s so tempting to change up things if one is out of form, another carries a niggle, one is better suited to this or that striker and another is left footed and can play three at the back, it hinders developing a really set backline with a strong culture for how to do things. I don’t think most great backlines are interchanged as often as ours, but if you ship three goals to a weak team, as every top team does every now and then, it’s too easy to revert to the hungry and about as good CB at the bench, especially if you can choose between three and a half.

 

[Johan07]

I agree with much of this. The one thing I doubt is wether it is a veiled curse having so many fairly equal CB’s. As it’s so tempting to change up things if one is out of form, another carries a niggle, one is better suited to this or that striker and another is left footed and can play three at the back, it hinders developing a really set backline with a strong culture for how to do things. I don’t think most great backlines are interchanged as often as ours, but if you ship three goals to a weak team, as every top team does every now and then, it’s too easy to revert to the hungry and about as good CB at the bench, especially if you can choose between three and a half.

Yeah, one can really discuss if its a blessing or a curse to have depth or a Rio/Vidic or Ramos/Varane pairing that plays every game.

The latter option might seem like the best; especially to the fans. It will also force players like Pique away from the club.

I am really on the fence on this to be honest. What I do believe that with the injuries we have had the last couple of years I do think we have benefited from having depth at CB.

Critizise Rojo for all you want (I do), but he is probably fifth/sixth choice CB right about now and an Argentinian regular. He still chooses to stay; I think because he knows he will get games and that if he performs he can actually compete to play the major games.

Its an interesting cunundrum this.

 

[Grande]

Conspiracy theory? Yeah ok.

And no, I did not say he is only bad in the air, both him and Bailly are very poor in the air, Fellaini is not only there to help him out in attacking aerial balls, but in general to defend. It's very obvious watching the last two games. If you failed to realize that, nothing I can do to change your mind. Mourinho is not certifiably mad, but you are talking about the guy who persists with Alexis despite him being utter crap, and the same standards don't comply on him. Not to mention his treatment of Shaw.

Mourinho is not mad, yet he like many other managers does make strange even stupid choices. Him choosing Lindelof in two games over Bailly does not have to mean he rates the one as better, chill out. If he yet persist with the Swede and it costs us long term, like it probably will, then it will be another in the line of examples where Mourinho fails to get his most talented players playing and performing. Which would cost his job eventually. But please let's not make this thing about Jose, as I said already it's been two games only, and we will see how it pens out in a month.

I personally don't know what Jose saw in him to start him over Smalling. Jones I can understand and I'm not sure what is the guy still doing here after the summer. I feel Bailly is being punished for the penalty, and eventually he will be back into the team, since as I said he is a better CB than Lindelof.

His reading of the game is questionable, he has shown nothing to say it's his strength, he is disciplined that is ok and understanding of tactics, a PL CB should have an understanding of tactics as a bare minimum, if that counts as some fecking strength than wtf are our scouts doing. His positioning and awareness to stay close and mark players is his strength? I don't think so. It's questionable to say the least and has no pace for recovery, which makes it even worse. Good at organizing the defense? Based on what? He is timid and no leader, Smalling has came in and taken that responsibility of organizing the back line.

A fighter? If Lindelof is a fighter than God help us. He is good on the ball you are right, solid technician but Bailly is fairly more comfortable with it for example. And Lindelof is no better passer either. Maybe he doesn't rush headlessly like Bailly, but when he does, it's either a foul or he losses the duel. Responsible? Is that his strength based on some story like Xhaka maybe? Since I don't know how did you come out with that. And his organizing skills I must have missed, since I've seen nothing of sorts, very often he can't organize himself. like for example that backpass vs Spurs, which was an obvious brainfart.

He makes as many mistakes as Bailly really. Lindelof made a mistake for the first Brighton goal, and made a total clusterfeck against Spurs which was not punished, among other incidents. Bailly made a stupid penalty. On stat boards, they both have 1 error leading to goal counted.

This is what I mean by if one man doesn’t see it, it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

On a tangent: Lindelöf makes mistakes, but against both Burnley and Watford he made the least mistakes of anyone in the back four.

Over time, I’d say Lindelöf and Bailly has made about equal amounts of grave mistakes, adjusted for playing time. The difference to me seems that while Bailly’s come in clusters, having almost increased rather than decreased, and seem related to lack of understanding and slowness of learning at times, Lindelöfs have been fairly evenly spread, deceasing steadily in numbers and magnitude, and look as if they’ve more to to with confidence, nerves and inexperience. I really hope Bailly can sort his lowest level out, if so he’ll be a joy to watch on a consistent basis.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Scoring own goals is not classic Bailly. However trying to clear the ball with a bicycle kick when he can just kick it or head it, yeah that is very much classic Bailly. He ended up slicing the clearance into his own net, when there wasn’t even any real danger.

I think if I was Mourinho I would bring a whiteboard next to the pitch for training sessions and each time he tried to bicycle kick the ball I would send him to the board to write 100 times “I will not try bicycle kicks” like he’s Bart Simpson. Maybe the penny would drop and he’d actually start using his head (literally) from then on.

I was being a bit flippant towards the above poster putting a laughing smilie about scoring an own goal and saying classic.

Classic Bailly is making countless stupid mistakes and instead of ever getting criticized by people on here they think its hilarious. I'm not sure how fecking up a simple clearance and scoring an own goal is funny but apparently it is to a lot of people here. Those same bicycle kick clearances will have numerous posters going on about how crazy and wacky Bailly is and they love him because he's so damn funny. Instead of actually criticizing it for garbage defending.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I agree with much of this. The one thing I doubt is wether it is a veiled curse having so many fairly equal CB’s. As it’s so tempting to change up things if one is out of form, another carries a niggle, one is better suited to this or that striker and another is left footed and can play three at the back, it hinders developing a really set backline with a strong culture for how to do things. I don’t think most great backlines are interchanged as often as ours, but if you ship three goals to a weak team, as every top team does every now and then, it’s too easy to revert to the hungry and about as good CB at the bench, especially if you can choose between three and a half.

This is a good point, and over the last two years Jose has been guilty of seemingly just throwing any two from five onto the pitch.

Whilst we were set up differenty under LVG, the most successful CB partnership we have had since Rio/ Vidic has easily been Smalling/ Blind.

The most important area for consistency in your two CB’s and GK.

 

[Grylte]

I just read on Facebook that we're apparantly looking to swap him for Özil.
It was on YNFA, so not sure about the sources

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I just read on Facebook that we're apparantly looking to swap him for Özil.
It was on YNFA, so not sure about the sources

Read on Facebook! Most of the stories in the summer when clubs can actually buy players are complete BS, I wouldn’t put any stock in a story about us buying/ selling/ swapping players in January. Let’s wait until December for sully season to begin.

 

[Grylte]

Read on Facebook! Most of the stories in the summer when clubs can actually buy players are complete BS, I wouldn’t put any stock in a story about us buying/ selling/ swapping players in January. Let’s wait until December for sully season to begin.

There was a reason for the mate

 

[Grande]

This is a good point, and over the last two years Jose has been guilty of seemingly just throwing any two from five onto the pitch.

Whilst we were set up differenty under LVG, the most successful CB partnership we have had since Rio/ Vidic has easily been Smalling/ Blind.

The most important area for consistency in your two CB’s and GK.

I actually think Jones/Rojo was as good for a spell, though I have extremely little expectation at this point that it will ever repeat itself.

I loved the Smalling/Blind pairing, though I do think it was helped by low expectations, protection from the playing style and fairly short duration (and nostalgic memory). But it was a very good match!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I still think he's not that far away from becoming a top defender, it at last phases of his United career have suggested that. Over the last 6-8 months, it's all fallen apart though. I don't really understand why to be honest. There's been times when he's been absolutely immense and for substantial number of matches as well.

 

[11101]

I still think he's not that far away from becoming a top defender, it at last phases of his United career have suggested that. Over the last 6-8 months, it's all fallen apart though. I don't really understand why to be honest. There's been times when he's been absolutely immense and for substantial number of matches as well.

His confidence looks shot. The lunges and weird clearances usually come from trying too hard. He's gone in too aggressively for something and missed or he's pushed too far forward and left himself exposed. He's far from the only one in the team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

His confidence looks shot. The lunges and weird clearances usually come from trying too hard. He's gone in too aggressively for something and missed or he's pushed too far forward and left himself exposed. He's far from the only one in the team.

That's true. I don't see this see-saw with our centre backs changing anytime soon. Lindelof doesn't look ready to be a proper United starting CB either.

 

[Kostov]

This is what I mean by if one man doesn’t see it, it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

On a tangent: Lindelöf makes mistakes, but against both Burnley and Watford he made the least mistakes of anyone in the back four.

Over time, I’d say Lindelöf and Bailly has made about equal amounts of grave mistakes, adjusted for playing time. The difference to me seems that while Bailly’s come in clusters, having almost increased rather than decreased, and seem related to lack of understanding and slowness of learning at times, Lindelöfs have been fairly evenly spread, deceasing steadily in numbers and magnitude, and look as if they’ve more to to with confidence, nerves and inexperience. I really hope Bailly can sort his lowest level out, if so he’ll be a joy to watch on a consistent basis.

Who made mistakes out of the back four against Burnley or Watford? Against Burnley, two of the chances/shot we conceded was while he was beaten in the air, and Smalling has been much better while taking initiative and responsibility to actually defend in both games. On the other side, what has Lindelof done out of notice in these two games?

Grave mistakes? Well, Lindelof has made high profile mistakes that cost us goals and some that didn't. In the meantime what has he done to show he is actually good enough? Bailly in the same time has had brilliant moments regularly.

 

[Vault Dweller]

He has too many brainless moments right now. He’s right to be out of the side but hopefully he can cut the silly mistakes out his game.

We have looked better recently so he will really need to graft hard to get back in the side.

 

[Grande]

Who made mistakes out of the back four against Burnley or Watford? Against Burnley, two of the chances/shot we conceded was while he was beaten in the air, and Smalling has been much better while taking initiative and responsibility to actually defend in both games. On the other side, what has Lindelof done out of notice in these two games?

Grave mistakes? Well, Lindelof has made high profile mistakes that cost us goals and some that didn't. In the meantime what has he done to show he is actually good enough? Bailly in the same time has had brilliant moments regularly.

Just to answer your question about mistake-proneness: By my account, Valencia made over a dozen, Shaw made more mistakes in the first half against Burnley than Lindelöf has in two games, Young made at least four of note against Watford, Lindelöf made two against Watford and one-and-a-half against Burnley. Smalling has been very good, but still made three significant errors vs Burnley and a couple vs Watford. Fellaini is not in the back four, but as you mentioned him, he had at least five mistakes against Watford leading to dangerous situations.

This is of course not about who played best, but about who makes the most defensive errors of any note, as you contested that.

On what he has shown positively, I refer you to my previous answer, and there are plenty of others in this and similar threads you can read if you’re wondering why some people see Victor Lindelöf as an ok player with good sides as well as bad.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

If he was English, he'd get just as much stick as Jones on here. There's something about the "exotic" foreign players where they get less stick than the "boring" English ones. I have been guilty of it myself many times.

 

[Bobski]

Utter shite again tonight. Jones will get the majority of the flack, his position as a long term disappointment assures that, but Bailly again showed why a mediocrity like Lindelof is in the team ahead of him. He creates chaos, destabilizes the entire defense with his erratic decision making and literally every clearance he has to make could go anywhere.

He looked so good at times in that first season, perhaps we were ignoring his flaws but where he is at right now can not be relied on.

 

[FootyGirl88]

He had a decent game imo

 

[Rozay]

‘Our best defender’, or so the saying goes. He’s fecking shit.

 

[VorZakone]

He had a decent game imo

‘Our best defender’, or so the saying goes. He’s fecking shit.

Which one applies more?

 

[kundalini]

I thought he played fairly well but I'd like to see a different angle of the move that led to the sending off, to see whether Bailly or Dalot should have been tighter to the player who got through.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Not good enough. Get rid of this clown, Rojo & Jones. Alderwiereld & de Ligt to replace.

 

[Devil may care]

I didn't think he was that bad, didn't go charging off up the field on erratic runs and made some decent interceptions.

 

[Romez]

Completely fell asleep on the rebound for their second goal.

 

[Sylar]

Thought he did ok. But it was against Derby, he should be doing more than ok.

 

[TsuWave]

caf always looking for scapegoats

 

[el3mel]

He has zero awareness for his surroundings that's for sure.

 

[MikeKing]

Not in great form at the moment, and to be completely honest he hasn't been for a good while now. There was a few moments, and i haven't noticed this about him before, where he seemed just uninterested in keeping up with play. Like it was a hassle to care. I think that is worrying but it does explain his constant issues with lack of awareness and concentration lapses, but i really didn't peg him for the sort of guy who won't apply himself but you never know i guess. We still don't, but he might be thinking he is already some super defender with amazing attributes so he just relies on them and refuse to improve other areas. Its sad if i'm in the ballpark about this because i think he has real talent, but he won't amount to much if he doesn't improve a lot more.

 

[Fracture90]

He wasn't that bad at all yesterday, but knowing Mourinho he will be back to the shadow realm.

 

[Kostov]

He was fine last night, I don't know what are people on about. Guess it's regular service and go Bailly. He won many tackles and made some interceptions, while being exposed by a midfield that was overrun and a 19 year old RB, who had a hard time on his debut in the English game. He should start at the weekend.

 

[Shinjch]

An accident waiting to happen every time that he plays. His athleticism clearly fooled people early on, but he is an awful centre half. Never aware of runners off him, panicky when having to distribute the ball forward and a bit of a headless chicken.

For Jose to blow 70 million on him and Lindelof is mindblowing.

 

[Shinjch]

in error

 

[dove]

Don't know how can people say he played well yesterday. He was just as bad as Jones, and has been for ages TBF.