Enzo Fernández | signs for Chelsea

[El Jefe]

The hold that Rangnick has on a section of this fanbase is incredible.

In a summer that we signed Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony and Lisandro we're still getting people crying about why we didn't sign other players. Also being criticised for not taking gambles despite actually doing that with Amad and Pellestri and at a lower level scouting and bringing in players like Garnacho and Hannibal.

We can't get everyone. Moaning about why we didn't sign Enzo is silly because none of the other top clubs got him either. Another thing the Rangnick army need to remember is because you identify a player doesn't mean you'll have free rein at getting the player. All of these players are seen by other top clubs there is nothing top secret about these players. Imagine actually thinking Gvardiol and Nkunku are recommendations in January 2022

 

[Black Alabaster]

I understand both sides and totally get why football clubs do it. It’s as easy as it looks. Why make them go to a c/b side for £5m. When you can get them for £20m removing the potential mark up on price if they do well at the b/c club.

I just personally think the player develops better when they don’t take the big club route. Obviously there are exceptions to the norm like Vini Jr etc. However he was really close to getting lost in the system too. Don Carlo saved him.

Yeah just depends on the scouts really, Raphinha was 250K, Marquinhos 750k! Casemiro £3m! Martinelli £5m! Can easily get a live one if you have good boots on the ground, no reason Manchester United shouldn't be utilising the loan market more, or even using feeder clubs to put these guys at if need be.

However he was really close to getting lost in the system too. Don Carlo saved him.

To be fair mate we have Don Hag here, who can also give a mean eyebrow raise when trouble is afoot. We have a proper trainer-coach here nowdays along with growing spanish speaking contingent, ship em in!

I don’t understand this attitude.

We’ve just had arguably our best window in years yet still ungrateful.

I think if you view the window we just had as one of the best in years, thats' part of the problem really, comparing that to the dross we've had before doesn't make it great.

We farted around begging De Jong to come whilst everyone and their dog could see it wasn't on, then we panicked last minute when we realised it wasn't happening and spent £70m on Casemiro in his last year of his contract. Tried chasing Timber, got turned down then pivoted to Martinez who was on his way to Arsenal before ETH called him.. It was a transition in our scouting we are still going through but this isn't laudable conduct to be "grateful" for as you put it with all the other players that were out there. It was desperate.



Then we made a horses arse of the Antony deal aswell, having to have our pants taken down by Ajax spending nearly £100m and putting him on £200k a week when he is clearly not near that level yet. Then easily picking up a previously crocked Eriksen on a free transfer. If you look at it in a vacuum of names on paper yes it was good a few holes being plugged in the squad.

If you take a sensible critical look at the amount of money and time we wasted chasing silly targets and overpaying for everyone we actually had to pay for and now we are broke and scrounging around in January when we need reinforcements, bit silly to say its ungrateful to hope we conduct ourselves better than that and are able to manage our budget better to make more varied intelligent signings at the right time..

 

[TheReligion]

Yeah just depends on the scouts really, Raphinha was 250K, Marquinhos 750k! Casemiro £3m! Martinelli £5m! Can easily get a live one if you have good boots on the ground, no reason Manchester United shouldn't be utilising the loan market more, or even using feeder clubs to put these guys at if need be.



To be fair mate we have Don Hag here, who can also give a mean eyebrow raise when trouble is afoot. We have a proper trainer-coach here nowdays along with growing spanish speaking contingent, ship em in!


I think if you view the window we just had as one of the best in years, thats' part of the problem really, comparing that to the dross we've had before doesn't make it great.

We farted around begging De Jong to come whilst everyone and their dog could see it wasn't on, then we panicked last minute when we realised it wasn't happening and spent £70m on Casemiro in his last year of his contract. Tried chasing Timber, got turned down then pivoted to Martinez who was on his way to Arsenal before ETH called him.. It was a transition in our scouting we are still going through but this isn't laudable conduct to be "grateful" for as you put it with all the other players that were out there. It was desperate.



Then we made a horses arse of the Antony deal aswell, having to have our pants taken down by Ajax spending nearly £100m and putting him on £200k a week when he is clearly not near that level yet. Then easily picking up a previously crocked Eriksen on a free transfer. If you look at it in a vacuum of names on paper yes it was good a few holes being plugged in the squad.

If you take a sensible critical look at the amount of money and time we wasted chasing silly targets and overpaying for everyone we actually had to pay for and now we are broke and scrounging around in January when we need reinforcements, bit silly to say its ungrateful to hope we conduct ourselves better than that and are able to manage our budget better to make more varied intelligent signings at the right time..

As you point out summer gone was a transitional one given the holes in our recruitment and change to scouting. These changes won’t bare any fruits until this coming summer.

I was speaking in terms of the quality of player we have brought in specifically. No one can have any complaints, even more so when you consider we were quite hamstrung in our business. Chelsea were in a similar position with the change in ownership and board (however slightly better off as they didn’t also have a new manager).

Their window was a complete clusterfeck of random players, being knocked back for multiple targets and overpaying massively on who they signed.

Of course I want, and I’m confident it will, our business to improve. The stability should enable that.

I just don’t think people are being realistic in their expectations and tend to want everything all at once.

 

[SoCross]

Oh yes, one of 50 players Rangnick pointed out apparently.

That WUM attempt worked beautifully

 

[romufc]

The hold that Rangnick has on a section of this fanbase is incredible.

In a summer that we signed Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony and Lisandro we're still getting people crying about why we didn't sign other players. Also being criticised for not taking gambles despite actually doing that with Amad and Pellestri and at a lower level scouting and bringing in players like Garnacho and Hannibal.

We can't get everyone. Moaning about why we didn't sign Enzo is silly because none of the other top clubs got him either. Another thing the Rangnick army need to remember is because you identify a player doesn't mean you'll have free rein at getting the player. All of these players are seen by other top clubs there is nothing top secret about these players. Imagine actually thinking Gvardiol and Nkunku are recommendations in January 2022

Deluded fans.

They think its football manager where you google wonderkids sign them for cheap and they come good, if not owell.

This is reality, you cannot just go signing every player. Haaland and Bellingham are perfect examples, we went for both at cheaper fees and they didn't want to come to us.

Also, what people forget is how many of these players actually start at top teams? Not many. PLayers that are young and talented want to improve, they want to play regularly, which is why they go to Dortmund, Benfica etc..

But lets all have a major attack at United because Chelsea signed a young player. Chelsea signed Chukwuemeka in summer, how many times has he featured?

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

The hold that Rangnick has on a section of this fanbase is incredible.

In a summer that we signed Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony and Lisandro we're still getting people crying about why we didn't sign other players. Also being criticised for not taking gambles despite actually doing that with Amad and Pellestri and at a lower level scouting and bringing in players like Garnacho and Hannibal.

We can't get everyone. Moaning about why we didn't sign Enzo is silly because none of the other top clubs got him either. Another thing the Rangnick army need to remember is because you identify a player doesn't mean you'll have free rein at getting the player. All of these players are seen by other top clubs there is nothing top secret about these players. Imagine actually thinking Gvardiol and Nkunku are recommendations in January 2022

This. Times ten.

Who is to say had we signed Enzo years ago that he adapts and matured the way he has at Benfica with the absolute disarray we've had on and off the pitch? We only need to look at Sancho for evidence and Sancho looked a much better prospect

 

[Black Alabaster]

I just don’t think people are being realistic in their expectations and tend to want everything all at once.

Fair points yeah, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time though. This is Man United not Accrington Stanley (who are they?)

I think the sentiment is how many revamps, resets & rebuilds must our player acquisition pipeline go through before someone competent is in place to make good decisions. Adnan pointed out now Mick Court is the man running the video analysis over targets, with Jose Mayorga(previous S.America scout) & Simon Wells the two chief scouts passing reccomondations up now from scouting teams.

@El Jefe mentioned Pellistri who was a forlan tip off to his old mate Solskjaer not a scouting team product, and Amad the time scouts were listened to, don't be suprised to see him becoming a top level player in a few years time. Garnacho, Hannibal etc youth team recruits are something every top club does I don't think that needs patting on back for, bare minimum.

We have been content too long with moving at a glacial pace when it comes to evolving, modernising, transfers, scouting, and every facet of the way our club has operated apart from commercial operation. Watching other clubs leapfrog us in football operation, catching up on the previously imsurmountable lead we seemed to have.

It's been like this for too long that I feel fans like your good self and @romufc above, have been conditioned into accepting this sort of medicrioty to set in. We don't need to begin lurching to extremes about football manager wonderkids, It is plain as day to see what's been happening at other clubs in our "bracket" with what they do in the real world that we haven't..

Not sure where this "don't criticise the club or hope that we operate better faster, buy & develop young players, it's unrealistic!" type of attitude is coming from. Weird to me that fans want to excuse our shortcomings and justify bad business even to this day. That's not the type of blind support that is beneficiary at this time, It is not attacking the club to hope we don't get mugged off with transfer fees like we have for basically every player in the last 6-10 years apart from Bruno, Licha, Dalot & Varane pretty much. We can still be critical and support the direction we are moving with Murtough Madness obviously taking effect recently and spurring positive change.

The real litmus test will be this summer if we make some intelligent under the radar signings, not just ETH previous players relying on manager like we have been. Or perhaps we will have another ready made excuse ready to go with our club takeover as to why we can't make a well scouted low fanfare signing and need to continue paying £60m+ for any decent player. Pretty basic stuff really.

P.s because I can't post more than 5 times a day yet, here is Derek Langley one of our previous top scouts criticising other staff at the club, highlighting this issue and how we ignored De Ligt, De Jong, Upamecano and others when he says we could of got them.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-utd-de-ligt-ajax-15530351

 

[TheReligion]

Fair points yeah, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time though. This is Man United not Accrington Stanley (who are they?)

I think the sentiment is how many revamps, resets & rebuilds must our player acquisition pipeline go through before someone competent is in place to make good decisions. Adnan pointed out now Mick Court is the man running the video analysis over targets, with Jose Mayorga(previous S.America scout) & Simon Wells the two chief scouts passing reccomondations up now from scouting teams.

@El Jefe mentioned Pellistri who was a forlan tip off to his old mate Solskjaer not a scouting team product, and Amad the time scouts were listened to, don't be suprised to see him becoming a top level player in a few years time. Garnacho, Hannibal etc youth team recruits are something every top club does I don't think that needs patting on back for, bare minimum.

We have been content too long with moving at a glacial pace when it comes to evolving, modernising, transfers, scouting, and every facet of the way our club has operated apart from commercial operation. Watching other clubs leapfrog us in football operation, catching up on the previously imsurmountable lead we seemed to have.

It's been like this for too long that I feel fans like your good self and @romufc above, have been conditioned into accepting this sort of medicrioty to set in. We don't need to begin lurching to extremes about football manager wonderkids, It is plain as day to see what's been happening at other clubs in our "bracket" with what they do in the real world that we haven't..

Not sure where this "don't criticise the club or hope that we operate better faster, buy & develop young players, it's unrealistic!" type of attitude is coming from. Weird to me that fans want to excuse our shortcomings and justify bad business even to this day. That's not the type of blind support that is beneficiary at this time, It is not attacking the club to hope we don't get mugged off with transfer fees like we have for basically every player in the last 6-10 years apart from Bruno, Licha, Dalot & Varane pretty much. We can still be critical and support the direction we are moving with Murtough Madness obviously taking effect recently and spurring positive change.

The real litmus test will be this summer if we make some intelligent under the radar signings, not just ETH previous players relying on manager like we have been. Or perhaps we will have another ready made excuse ready to go with our club takeover as to why we can't make a well scouted low fanfare signing and need to continue paying £60m+ for any decent player. Pretty basic stuff really.

Fair view and I feel the more accurate one is in the middle of where you sit and where I sit.

I doing think some fans blindly accept mediocrity but they are more realistic as to where we currently are after years of poor ownership and an awful managerial merry go round.

Given the clear changes made in all areas over the past 12 months and the recent news that the Glazers are looking to sell I think it’s a good time to be optimistic as opposed to bemoan missed opportunities from when the club was still struggling and trying to find some stability.

That said I’ve always been a glass half full than a glass half empty type.

 

[Mainoldo]

Fair points yeah, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time though. This is Man United not Accrington Stanley (who are they?)

I think the sentiment is how many revamps, resets & rebuilds must our player acquisition pipeline go through before someone competent is in place to make good decisions. Adnan pointed out now Mick Court is the man running the video analysis over targets, with Jose Mayorga(previous S.America scout) & Simon Wells the two chief scouts passing reccomondations up now from scouting teams.

@El Jefe mentioned Pellistri who was a forlan tip off to his old mate Solskjaer not a scouting team product, and Amad the time scouts were listened to, don't be suprised to see him becoming a top level player in a few years time. Garnacho, Hannibal etc youth team recruits are something every top club does I don't think that needs patting on back for, bare minimum.

We have been content too long with moving at a glacial pace when it comes to evolving, modernising, transfers, scouting, and every facet of the way our club has operated apart from commercial operation. Watching other clubs leapfrog us in football operation, catching up on the previously imsurmountable lead we seemed to have.

It's been like this for too long that I feel fans like your good self and @romufc above, have been conditioned into accepting this sort of medicrioty to set in. We don't need to begin lurching to extremes about football manager wonderkids, It is plain as day to see what's been happening at other clubs in our "bracket" with what they do in the real world that we haven't..

Not sure where this "don't criticise the club or hope that we operate better faster, buy & develop young players, it's unrealistic!" type of attitude is coming from. Weird to me that fans want to excuse our shortcomings and justify bad business even to this day. That's not the type of blind support that is beneficiary at this time, It is not attacking the club to hope we don't get mugged off with transfer fees like we have for basically every player in the last 6-10 years apart from Bruno, Licha, Dalot & Varane pretty much. We can still be critical and support the direction we are moving with Murtough Madness obviously taking effect recently and spurring positive change.

The real litmus test will be this summer if we make some intelligent under the radar signings, not just ETH previous players relying on manager like we have been. Or perhaps we will have another ready made excuse ready to go with our club takeover as to why we can't make a well scouted low fanfare signing and need to continue paying £60m+ for any decent player. Pretty basic stuff really.

P.s because I can't post more than 5 times a day yet, here is Derek Langley one of our previous top scouts criticising other staff at the club, highlighting this issue and how we ignored De Ligt, De Jong, Upamecano and others when he says we could of got them.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-utd-de-ligt-ajax-15530351

I love how everyone always thinks they have the right answer and how it lays wherever we are not.

We are talking about youth development… it’s as unpredictable as getting Lionel Messi. Chelsea and City have spent loads on their youth development yet Manchester United produced the most professional footballers in domestic football. Clearly certain formulas that continue to work are hard to get across need changing.

You have to look at the bigger picture academy’s aren’t all designed the same. Ours has been designed to atleast unearth 1 talent that can make it into the first team (surrounded by fillers) which we continue to have this glorious record of. Whilst other academy’s might just be focused on picking the absolute best in the country in a conveyor belt fashion.

Yes we might have had some great recommendations but if the class of 2016 was designed around producing attacking wingers they probably didn’t care too much about getting De Light for a fee above budget.

 

[Mainoldo]

Fair view and I feel the more accurate one is in the middle of where you sit and where I sit.

I doing think some fans blindly accept mediocrity but they are more realistic as to where we currently are after years of poor ownership and an awful managerial merry go round.

Given the clear changes made in all areas over the past 12 months and the recent news that the Glazers are looking to sell I think it’s a good time to be optimistic as opposed to bemoan missed opportunities from when the club was still struggling and trying to find some stability.

That said I’ve always been a glass half full than a glass half empty type.

The funding around the facilities might improve but I don’t think the Philosophy will.

 

[jesperjaap]

The hold that Rangnick has on a section of this fanbase is incredible.

In a summer that we signed Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony and Lisandro we're still getting people crying about why we didn't sign other players. Also being criticised for not taking gambles despite actually doing that with Amad and Pellestri and at a lower level scouting and bringing in players like Garnacho and Hannibal.

We can't get everyone. Moaning about why we didn't sign Enzo is silly because none of the other top clubs got him either. Another thing the Rangnick army need to remember is because you identify a player doesn't mean you'll have free rein at getting the player. All of these players are seen by other top clubs there is nothing top secret about these players. Imagine actually thinking Gvardiol and Nkunku are recommendations in January 2022

Agree with a lot of what you are saying here. We have signed two of the best players we have signed for a long time in the last window I feel. We have also spent a lot of money on youngsters.

Its partly about opportunity. I mean lets not forget it was months until Caiedo got an opportunity at Brighton and we have these youngsters you have mentioned and Pellestri hasnt even been given an opportunity, a couple of these youngsters could well be starring at other clubs, Garnacho is now getting opportunities.

However, some people seem to be saying our scouting and buying has been a transitional year, I still dont feel we have done as well as we could have done in this window and certainly the last ouple of years.

People lauded Eriksen as he was a free signing....he is in the twilight of his career, Enzo Fernandez was £10m and 21. We have for one reason or another missed out on some of the best central mdifielders in Europe recently Bellingham, Caicedo, DeJong, Fernandez, Camavinga...strong links with all of them. I also think there were a good 5/6 relatvely cheap really good young midfielders we ould have gone for in the summer, we've signed two 30year olds and our other midfielder is not far from 30.

Of course there are high hopes for the likes of Hannibal and Mainoo so maybe it isnt a problem longer term.

I just feel the summer gone, we failed to move on anywhere near the numbe of players we should have which would have bought in more money, we spent far too long chasing DeJong and we were 3/4 players short signing wise from a side that we an be really confident finishes in the top four, that is where we are now....and 3/4 players seems a lot with what we spent.....but there were value signings out there....Enxo Fernndez obviously one of them, that wouldnt have broke the bank,

So yes, I'm happy with the signings we have made, but ungrateful isnt the word, we could and should have done more in the market over the summer in and out....and still finished on pretty much the same net spend as we did

 

[croadyman]

Deluded fans.

They think its football manager where you google wonderkids sign them for cheap and they come good, if not owell.

This is reality, you cannot just go signing every player. Haaland and Bellingham are perfect examples, we went for both at cheaper fees and they didn't want to come to us.

Also, what people forget is how many of these players actually start at top teams? Not many. PLayers that are young and talented want to improve, they want to play regularly, which is why they go to Dortmund, Benfica etc..

But lets all have a major attack at United because Chelsea signed a young player. Chelsea signed Chukwuemeka in summer, how many times has he featured?

Yeah if we hadn't had such a poor last near decade then maybe the likes of Haaland & Bellingham would have seen us as somewhere worth developing themselves

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Its fine that we didn't sign him on the cheap. Let's do it for big money now.

 

[croadyman]

Its fine that we didn't sign him on the cheap. Let's do it for big money now.

Maybe he wanted a mid move first

 

[Adnan]

There will be more players of a similar profile who are on the cusp of making their breakouts in Europe. It would be sensible to focus on those players and not get involved in a auction for players whose valuation has risen to a ridiculous level. This is how we've got to a stage where we've burnt through cash with little to show for it.

I'm not worried at all if Liverpool end up getting Enzo Fernandez. And I'm fairly optimistic we'll sign the correct profile of player due to ten Hag's vision being the blueprint. And if the blueprint in question is understood, then it would be sensible for the club to pivot away from the likes of Bellingham and Enzo Fernandez and allow the likes of Mayorga and Wells to draw up a list together with the lead and regional scouts to select from.

 

[Real Name]

That WUM attempt worked beautifully

Oh yes. Kudos.

 

[Lash]

Agree with a lot of what you are saying here. We have signed two of the best players we have signed for a long time in the last window I feel. We have also spent a lot of money on youngsters.

Its partly about opportunity. I mean lets not forget it was months until Caiedo got an opportunity at Brighton and we have these youngsters you have mentioned and Pellestri hasnt even been given an opportunity, a couple of these youngsters could well be starring at other clubs, Garnacho is now getting opportunities.

However, some people seem to be saying our scouting and buying has been a transitional year, I still dont feel we have done as well as we could have done in this window and certainly the last ouple of years.

People lauded Eriksen as he was a free signing....he is in the twilight of his career, Enzo Fernandez was £10m and 21. We have for one reason or another missed out on some of the best central mdifielders in Europe recently Bellingham, Caicedo, DeJong, Fernandez, Camavinga...strong links with all of them. I also think there were a good 5/6 relatvely cheap really good young midfielders we ould have gone for in the summer, we've signed two 30year olds and our other midfielder is not far from 30.

Of course there are high hopes for the likes of Hannibal and Mainoo so maybe it isnt a problem longer term.

I just feel the summer gone, we failed to move on anywhere near the numbe of players we should have which would have bought in more money, we spent far too long chasing DeJong and we were 3/4 players short signing wise from a side that we an be really confident finishes in the top four, that is where we are now....and 3/4 players seems a lot with what we spent.....but there were value signings out there....Enxo Fernndez obviously one of them, that wouldnt have broke the bank,

So yes, I'm happy with the signings we have made, but ungrateful isnt the word, we could and should have done more in the market over the summer in and out....and still finished on pretty much the same net spend as we did

By all accounts we made efforts to sign them all, strong efforts with the ones from europe and we were cautious with those from South America. Is that an outlandish approach? Anyone pretending they thought Fernandez and Caicedo would transition as easily as they have, is kidding themselves.

 

[Erik the Red]

Yeah just depends on the scouts really, Raphinha was 250K, Marquinhos 750k! Casemiro £3m! Martinelli £5m! Can easily get a live one if you have good boots on the ground, no reason Manchester United shouldn't be utilising the loan market more, or even using feeder clubs to put these guys at if need be.



To be fair mate we have Don Hag here, who can also give a mean eyebrow raise when trouble is afoot. We have a proper trainer-coach here nowdays along with growing spanish speaking contingent, ship em in!


I think if you view the window we just had as one of the best in years, thats' part of the problem really, comparing that to the dross we've had before doesn't make it great.

We farted around begging De Jong to come whilst everyone and their dog could see it wasn't on, then we panicked last minute when we realised it wasn't happening and spent £70m on Casemiro in his last year of his contract. Tried chasing Timber, got turned down then pivoted to Martinez who was on his way to Arsenal before ETH called him.. It was a transition in our scouting we are still going through but this isn't laudable conduct to be "grateful" for as you put it with all the other players that were out there. It was desperate.



Then we made a horses arse of the Antony deal aswell, having to have our pants taken down by Ajax spending nearly £100m and putting him on £200k a week when he is clearly not near that level yet. Then easily picking up a previously crocked Eriksen on a free transfer. If you look at it in a vacuum of names on paper yes it was good a few holes being plugged in the squad.

If you take a sensible critical look at the amount of money and time we wasted chasing silly targets and overpaying for everyone we actually had to pay for and now we are broke and scrounging around in January when we need reinforcements, bit silly to say its ungrateful to hope we conduct ourselves better than that and are able to manage our budget better to make more varied intelligent signings at the right time..

I think that is a bit harsh.

We are in a difficult position in that we haven't been successful in recent years, so really top players will need convincing of our project, and the selling clubs all know we are able to afford any fee quoted, so we will find it really hard to negotiate a bargain.

If we were in a position of strength, and the players we wanted said to their current clubs, please accept the offer from United, I don't want to go anywhere else, and I will run my contract down to get that move, we might have a stronger negotiating hand. Bayern tend to do this with all the top German players, but top English players have a choice of any of the big 6, so most will accept the best project / offer.

 

[apotheosis]

Fair points yeah, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time though. This is Man United not Accrington Stanley (who are they?)

I think the sentiment is how many revamps, resets & rebuilds must our player acquisition pipeline go through before someone competent is in place to make good decisions. Adnan pointed out now Mick Court is the man running the video analysis over targets, with Jose Mayorga(previous S.America scout) & Simon Wells the two chief scouts passing reccomondations up now from scouting teams.

@El Jefe mentioned Pellistri who was a forlan tip off to his old mate Solskjaer not a scouting team product, and Amad the time scouts were listened to, don't be suprised to see him becoming a top level player in a few years time. Garnacho, Hannibal etc youth team recruits are something every top club does I don't think that needs patting on back for, bare minimum.

We have been content too long with moving at a glacial pace when it comes to evolving, modernising, transfers, scouting, and every facet of the way our club has operated apart from commercial operation. Watching other clubs leapfrog us in football operation, catching up on the previously imsurmountable lead we seemed to have.

It's been like this for too long that I feel fans like your good self and @romufc above, have been conditioned into accepting this sort of medicrioty to set in. We don't need to begin lurching to extremes about football manager wonderkids, It is plain as day to see what's been happening at other clubs in our "bracket" with what they do in the real world that we haven't..

Not sure where this "don't criticise the club or hope that we operate better faster, buy & develop young players, it's unrealistic!" type of attitude is coming from. Weird to me that fans want to excuse our shortcomings and justify bad business even to this day. That's not the type of blind support that is beneficiary at this time, It is not attacking the club to hope we don't get mugged off with transfer fees like we have for basically every player in the last 6-10 years apart from Bruno, Licha, Dalot & Varane pretty much. We can still be critical and support the direction we are moving with Murtough Madness obviously taking effect recently and spurring positive change.

The real litmus test will be this summer if we make some intelligent under the radar signings, not just ETH previous players relying on manager like we have been. Or perhaps we will have another ready made excuse ready to go with our club takeover as to why we can't make a well scouted low fanfare signing and need to continue paying £60m+ for any decent player. Pretty basic stuff really.

P.s because I can't post more than 5 times a day yet, here is Derek Langley one of our previous top scouts criticising other staff at the club, highlighting this issue and how we ignored De Ligt, De Jong, Upamecano and others when he says we could of got them.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-utd-de-ligt-ajax-15530351

Enjoyed reading your discussion with Religion pal. Personally, looking forward to when u can post more than 5 times a day, and i dont say that very often. Why is that by the way? Is that a Caf restriction for newbies?

 

[Black Alabaster]

I think it’s a good time to be optimistic as opposed to bemoan missed opportunities from when the club was still struggling and trying to find some stability.

That said I’ve always been a glass half full than a glass half empty type.

Yeah agreed, good way to be for the future too . Still think it's worth pulling the club up when we miss low hanging fruit opportunities infront of our nose.

I love how everyone always thinks they have the right answer and how it lays wherever we are not.
You have to look at the bigger picture academy’s aren’t all designed the same. Ours has been designed to atleast unearth 1 talent that can make it into the first team (surrounded by fillers)
If the class of 2016 was designed around producing attacking wingers they probably didn’t care too much about getting De Light for a fee above budget.

The answer certainly lays where we are not by a quick glance at our trophy cabinet post Sir Alex, woe betide fans who love the club seeing the obvious which the club under Woodwards' tenure could not.

Hope the parents of these "fillers" we signed in the CO2016 arent aware of this strategy you've outlined fella We have indeed enjoyed that glorious record and we will obviously keep it going forever as its part of our brand but lets not pretend that record being maintained through a few benched YT players, Lingard and Mctominay in recent years is an indication our academy is the nuts (outside of Rashford who was very fortunate to get a chance when he did). I do agree though I argued this point how capable it is producing pros in another thread to someone saying we dont produce WC talent since CO92.

My issue is not really with the academy anyway it does its job well as you pointed out already. Like Derek Langley and other scouts pointed out, missing out on players we could of signed for pittance before their big club move, or mid club move has been a common theme and that's where I plant my flag. Get these lads early, make them stars at our club like we have before without the excuse about development, loan them out then or coach them now we have proper qualified coaching, stop enriching these mid clubs who pop champagne and act cocky in the media flashing 100m+ release clauses knowing theyre going to 7x a years investment with zero effort. It's not like they're all getting world class coaching everyday at these clubs, it's guidance yes but also game time and leeway for any mistakes, which they could of got here too.

Its partly about opportunity. I mean lets not forget it was months until Caiedo got an opportunity at Brighton.

People lauded Eriksen as he was a free signing....he is in the twilight of his career, Enzo Fernandez was £10m and 21..I also think there were a good 5/6 relatvely cheap really good young midfielders we ould have gone for in the summer, we've signed two 30year olds and our other midfielder is not far from 30.

We could and should have done more in the market over the summer in and out....and still finished on pretty much the same net spend as we did

Yeah that's it jesper, in a vacuum on paper we made good summer of names. In reality it was quite short-sighted, saved by the bell lucky availability of Casemiro being casted off by RM and taking a massive risk on a crocked Eriksen from Brentford on a free (thank god he seems to be fine so far touch wood). Like you said, fantastic quality upgrade from the chuckle brothers Mcfred it goes without saying, not hard to upgrade from though, we would likely not of signed Cas if we got De Jong so who knows how we would be playing rn without a proper DM again which every fan could see we have needed for I dont know, 8 years. Or Mctom starting another season at DM as a starter. Maybe ETH could of made that work who knows.

By all accounts we made efforts to sign them all, strong efforts with the ones from europe and we were cautious with those from South America. Is that an outlandish approach? Anyone pretending they thought Fernandez and Caicedo would transition as easily as they have, is kidding themselves.

To be fair, Caicedo spent 6 months in academy, got loaned out to belguim for 6 months for game time then has been ripping it up since, why couldn't we of done that exactly? Julian Alvarez pep knew he could slot right in and said he's staying here and he has been on fire since even sat on bench behind Haaland limited game time and "development", when you have certain fundamentals they are quite transferable. The point is good scouting beyond just a fans intuition, is designed to be able to see these players with transferable strengths that can come in and do a job. It is not rocket science, just good judgement. That is what scouting is for.

I think that is a bit harsh.

We are in a difficult position in that we haven't been successful in recent years, so really top players will need convincing of our project, and the selling clubs all know we are able to afford any fee quoted, so we will find it really hard to negotiate a bargain.

Yeah good shout mate, this is why I am a advocate of not going on a mickey mouse chase for the De Jongs and other established top players of this world unless they want to come. Look how arsenal have assembled their current squad of relatively inexpensive signings that all perform roles in the managers system and now have players like Mudryk in media expressing their interest in joining. Now we have ETH we dont need glamour signings, we need functional signings and that actually works better with signing these lower price, well-scouted players who have attributes that the manager wants per position.

Enjoyed reading your discussion with Religion pal. Personally, looking forward to when u can post more than 5 times a day, and i dont say that very often. Why is that by the way? Is that a Caf restriction for newbies?

Ahh cheers fella, like to have well reasoned chats about these subjects it's good fun! Interesting to hear other fans perspectives on this stuff. Yeah think it's the newbie tag, could only do 3 posts a day before that was tragic end up having to write in large essays to get as much in as possible, so pardon my walls of text for now lads

 

[apotheosis]

Yeah agreed, good way to be for the future too . Still think it's worth pulling the club up when we miss low hanging fruit opportunities infront of our nose.


The answer certainly lays where we are not by a quick glance at our trophy cabinet post Sir Alex, woe betide fans who love the club seeing the obvious which the club under Woodwards' tenure could not.

Hope the parents of these "fillers" we signed in the CO2016 arent aware of this strategy you've outlined fella We have indeed enjoyed that glorious record and we will obviously keep it going forever as its part of our brand but lets not pretend that record being maintained through a few benched YT players, Lingard and Mctominay in recent years is an indication our academy is the nuts (outside of Rashford who was very fortunate to get a chance when he did). I do agree though I argued this point how capable it is producing pros in another thread to someone saying we dont produce WC talent since CO92.

My issue is not really with the academy anyway it does its job well as you pointed out already. Like Derek Langley and other scouts pointed out, missing out on players we could of signed for pittance before their big club move, or mid club move has been a common theme and that's where I plant my flag. Get these lads early, make them stars at our club like we have before without the excuse about development, loan them out then or coach them now we have proper qualified coaching, stop enriching these mid clubs who pop champagne and act cocky in the media flashing 100m+ release clauses knowing theyre going to 7x a years investment with zero effort. It's not like they're all getting world class coaching everyday at these clubs, it's guidance yes but also game time and leeway for any mistakes, which they could of got here too.


Yeah that's it jesper, in a vacuum on paper we made good summer of names. In reality it was quite short-sighted, saved by the bell lucky availability of Casemiro being casted off by RM and taking a massive risk on a crocked Eriksen from Brentford on a free (thank god he seems to be fine so far touch wood). Like you said, fantastic quality upgrade from the chuckle brothers Mcfred it goes without saying, not hard to upgrade from though, we would likely not of signed Cas if we got De Jong so who knows how we would be playing rn without a proper DM again which every fan could see we have needed for I dont know, 8 years. Or Mctom starting another season at DM as a starter. Maybe ETH could of made that work who knows.

To be fair, Caicedo spent 6 months in academy, got loaned out to belguim for 6 months for game time then has been ripping it up since, why couldn't we of done that exactly? Julian Alvarez pep knew he could slot right in and said he's staying here and he has been on fire since even sat on bench behind Haaland limited game time and "development", when you have certain fundamentals they are quite transferable. The point is good scouting beyond just a fans intuition, is designed to be able to see these players with transferable strengths that can come in and do a job. It is not rocket science, just good judgement. That is what scouting is for.

Yeah good shout mate, this is why I am a advocate of not going on a mickey mouse chase for the De Jongs and other established top players of this world unless they want to come. Look how arsenal have assembled their current squad of relatively inexpensive signings that all perform roles in the managers system and now have players like Mudryk in media expressing their interest in joining. Now we have ETH we dont need glamour signings, we need functional signings and that actually works better with signing these lower price, well-scouted players who have attributes that the manager wants per position.


Ahh cheers fella, like to have well reasoned chats about these subjects it's good fun! Interesting to hear other fans perspectives on this stuff. Yeah think it's the newbie tag, could only do 3 posts a day before that was tragic end up having to write in large essays to get as much in as possible, so pardon my walls of text for now lads

No worries pal, never knew there were any restrictions.On the upside, going from 3 upto 5 is still progress, suddenly finding yourself back on 3 would be a concern.

Read far bigger walls built on far less sturdy foundations.

 

[Lash]

To be fair, Caicedo spent 6 months in academy, got loaned out to belguim for 6 months for game time then has been ripping it up since, why couldn't we of done that exactly? Julian Alvarez pep knew he could slot right in and said he's staying here and he has been on fire since even sat on bench behind Haaland limited game time and "development", when you have certain fundamentals they are quite transferable. The point is good scouting beyond just a fans intuition, is designed to be able to see these players with transferable strengths that can come in and do a job. It is not rocket science, just good judgement. That is what scouting is for.

You're just ignoring circumstances and expectations though and picking successful transfers and not looking at it holistically.

Brighton make loads of these gambles as well, they don't all pay off, City can just piss money away as well and have plenty of poor transfers. Liverpool hardly put a foot wrong in the transfer market and then dropped 100m on Nunez.

Also, we were not buying someone to "come in and do a job" in an already bloated squad. We needed to buy people who we can pretty much replace our first XI players immediately - they all have done that and in Malacia's case, provided proper competition. When we trim the squad and make it leaner, we will be in a better position to gamble on some of the aforementioned transfers we didn't.

 

[Black Alabaster]

You're just ignoring circumstances and expectations though and picking successful transfers and not looking at it holistically.

Brighton make loads of these gambles as well, they don't all pay off, City can just piss money away as well and have plenty of poor transfers. Liverpool hardly put a foot wrong in the transfer market and then dropped 100m on Nunez.

Also, we were not buying someone to "come in and do a job" in an already bloated squad. We needed to buy people who we can pretty much replace our first XI players immediately - they all have done that and in Malacia's case, provided proper competition. When we trim the squad and make it leaner, we will be in a better position to gamble on some of the aforementioned transfers we didn't.

Not to derail this thread too much but Caicedo was sold reportedly for £4.5m all in all. He was being hailed by people invested in South American talents as the future of Ecuadors midfield and one of the biggest talents from his country in quite ahwile. Glowing reports from knowledgable S.A watchers like Tim Vickery, Antonio Valencia was also pushing him to us. I know you cant possibly be suggesting spending £4.5M on someone with this profile and price does not fit "holistically" into our strategy. Sounds like a Woodward era style excuse for not getting it done. Matt Judge & co just bungled the negotiations as is well documented.

As for other clubs making gambles that don't always pay off, thats a given really it's obviously not being stated that every one will be a 200+ appearances club legend, they dont need to be to be deemed a success either mind, but as the saying goes, you dont buy a ticket, you dont win the lottery. Thankfully you can tip the scales with good legwork, but we seemingly dont do it or push the button and that is something that hopefully is being addressed under the new regime. Even Dan James style where we picked up a talent, got some decent use out of him, increased his value from Manchester United association then sold him on for a profit.

By come in and "do a job" I meant it in a functional sense not a derogatory way for someone being average or one dimensional. To play the way ETH wants to with territorial dominance, possesion with purpose, occupying areas of the pitch and creating chances with rotations and combinations you need certain attributes for each position.The circumstance were we just lost Pogba, Matic, Mata, Lingard, Cavani, Greenwood , Eric Bailly off my head might of missed some that were first teamers like you say, so would hardly call us too bloated to sign a top young player for cheap that could get game time, we actually needed and still need quality in the middle and up front and even at the back. Think we generally agree on that.

 

[jesperjaap]

Yeah agreed, good way to be for the future too . Still think it's worth pulling the club up when we miss low hanging fruit opportunities infront of our nose.


The answer certainly lays where we are not by a quick glance at our trophy cabinet post Sir Alex, woe betide fans who love the club seeing the obvious which the club under Woodwards' tenure could not.

Hope the parents of these "fillers" we signed in the CO2016 arent aware of this strategy you've outlined fella We have indeed enjoyed that glorious record and we will obviously keep it going forever as its part of our brand but lets not pretend that record being maintained through a few benched YT players, Lingard and Mctominay in recent years is an indication our academy is the nuts (outside of Rashford who was very fortunate to get a chance when he did). I do agree though I argued this point how capable it is producing pros in another thread to someone saying we dont produce WC talent since CO92.

My issue is not really with the academy anyway it does its job well as you pointed out already. Like Derek Langley and other scouts pointed out, missing out on players we could of signed for pittance before their big club move, or mid club move has been a common theme and that's where I plant my flag. Get these lads early, make them stars at our club like we have before without the excuse about development, loan them out then or coach them now we have proper qualified coaching, stop enriching these mid clubs who pop champagne and act cocky in the media flashing 100m+ release clauses knowing theyre going to 7x a years investment with zero effort. It's not like they're all getting world class coaching everyday at these clubs, it's guidance yes but also game time and leeway for any mistakes, which they could of got here too.


Yeah that's it jesper, in a vacuum on paper we made good summer of names. In reality it was quite short-sighted, saved by the bell lucky availability of Casemiro being casted off by RM and taking a massive risk on a crocked Eriksen from Brentford on a free (thank god he seems to be fine so far touch wood). Like you said, fantastic quality upgrade from the chuckle brothers Mcfred it goes without saying, not hard to upgrade from though, we would likely not of signed Cas if we got De Jong so who knows how we would be playing rn without a proper DM again which every fan could see we have needed for I dont know, 8 years. Or Mctom starting another season at DM as a starter. Maybe ETH could of made that work who knows.

To be fair, Caicedo spent 6 months in academy, got loaned out to belguim for 6 months for game time then has been ripping it up since, why couldn't we of done that exactly? Julian Alvarez pep knew he could slot right in and said he's staying here and he has been on fire since even sat on bench behind Haaland limited game time and "development", when you have certain fundamentals they are quite transferable. The point is good scouting beyond just a fans intuition, is designed to be able to see these players with transferable strengths that can come in and do a job. It is not rocket science, just good judgement. That is what scouting is for.

Yeah good shout mate, this is why I am a advocate of not going on a mickey mouse chase for the De Jongs and other established top players of this world unless they want to come. Look how arsenal have assembled their current squad of relatively inexpensive signings that all perform roles in the managers system and now have players like Mudryk in media expressing their interest in joining. Now we have ETH we dont need glamour signings, we need functional signings and that actually works better with signing these lower price, well-scouted players who have attributes that the manager wants per position.


Ahh cheers fella, like to have well reasoned chats about these subjects it's good fun! Interesting to hear other fans perspectives on this stuff. Yeah think it's the newbie tag, could only do 3 posts a day before that was tragic end up having to write in large essays to get as much in as possible, so pardon my walls of text for now lads

Yes and you mentioning McFred is very relevant to the point I made of opportunities. Despite the size of the club and money spent....why hasnt there been room for more youngsters to get opporunities? LVG actually did lots of it....they were just not very good. But several areas of our side have been pretty barren for a few years with really average players that shouldnt even be here (several still are) and really talente players that have rarely performed with any consistency liek Pogba (and again there are still some of those here).

It will be interesting to see what Ten Hag does the next cuple of years as he seems to b egetting youngsters mroe involved with squad training, but as of yet only Garnacho has had opportunities....but personally I dont know why Pellestri hasnt had a game and Hannibal should also be around the bench in my opinion

 

[Harry190]

We buying or not? Is this real? Lots of talk here.

 

[jesperjaap]

By all accounts we made efforts to sign them all, strong efforts with the ones from europe and we were cautious with those from South America. Is that an outlandish approach? Anyone pretending they thought Fernandez and Caicedo would transition as easily as they have, is kidding themselves.

Bellingham I fully agree with you, we pulled out all the stops and it didnt happen. The others I disagree.....we spent way too long chasing DeJOng when from press reports and quotes from the player himself.....it was obvious he wasnt coming, so that was an outlandish approach absolutely, why chase a player that doesnt want to leave his club and doesnt appear to want to come here either.

As for Fernandez and Caicedo of course most people had no idea as they are playin gin SOuth America and we dont see them play, but the scouts would....and we are not talking the fees of DeJong, they cost under £15m for both of them, there was no more risk than signing Eriksen, less with wages and sell on value even if the flopped.

Of coruse not every player will choose to come here, we cant sign every player and there is no guarantee they would have got opportunities here....but we have needed to sign TWO central midfielders for several years, only McTominay has come through the youth an din five years:

We spent over £40m on one, a good one but one that was near 30 in Matic, the next year again we bought one spending nearly £60m on Fred one of our worst pound for pound signings in my book. We followed that up by not signing a single central midfielder when we still needed two and to top it off we spent nearly £40m on Van de Beek, said at the time a poor signing getting a squad player when we are barren,,,,,he hasnt even achieved that....that is shocking business.

Nearly every summer there has been room for a central midfield signing of the ilk of Fenandez/Caicedo......in thos five years we have signed one and he was what 16 in Hannibal?

So yes, our approach to making signings in certain positions, especially midfield has been absolutely outlandish, its been dreadful until we signed Casemeiro who hopefully we get 3/4 top seasons from

 

[Bluelion7]

Imagine actually thinking Gvardiol and Nkunku are recommendations in January 2022

Chelsea tried to sign Gvardiol in jan 2022. Marina had a problem with their valuation, and it became a sticking point … then everything fell apart… but we were trying then.

 

[Zoo]

Manchester United are overtaking Liverpool in the race for Enzo Fernández. There are already ongoing conversations between all involved. Red Devils are even willing to beat the €120 M clause and avoid any competition

 

[Teja]

Manchester United are overtaking Liverpool in the race for Enzo Fernández. There are already ongoing conversations between all involved. Red Devils are even willing to beat the €120 M clause and avoid any competition

Good source? Know nothing about the guy.

 

[Judas]

The most consistent and reliable Bruno I have ever known.

 

[Zoo]

Good source? Know nothing about the guy.

Yeah he’s a Brazilian journalist who covers Portuguese football.

 

[LordSpud]

Qatari overlords are saying "spend, spend, spend!"

 

[BluesJr]

Our priority for 2023 is Enzo according to this guy.

 

[Wrecking ralf]

80mil plus Donny would be ideal

 

[cyberman]

Qatari overlords are saying "spend, spend, spend!"

There’s a bit of humour to this but it really looks this way

 

[MrSingh2002]

Can Lisandro Martinez tap up Enzo?

Bellingham, Enzo or De Jong.

I feel we need to sign one of these and our midfield is complete for atleast a couple of years.

Casemiro
Bellingham/Enzo/De Jong
Eriksen
McTominay

CDM starter Casemiro
CDM backup McTominay
CM starter Bellingham/Enzo/De Jong
CM/CAM backup Eriksen

Can't remember when there were so many top midfield talents potentially available.

Maybe when Kroos and Thiago were linked.

 

[IFC 1905]

Can Lisandro Martinez tap up Enzo?

Bellingham, Enzo or De Jong.

I feel we need to sign one of these and our midfield is complete for atleast a couple of years.

Casemiro
Bellingham/Enzo/De Jong
Eriksen
McTominay

CDM starter Casemiro
CDM backup McTominay
CM starter Bellingham/Enzo/De Jong
CM/CAM backup Eriksen

Can't remember when there were so many top midfield talents potentially available.

Maybe when Kroos and Thiago were linked.

The next move is to get the next future great players for a low price.

Fausto Vera to me is a great signing for the future.


By the way, about Enzo: no one mentioned United here, yet. And River Plate are interested, as they've got a 25% of his value.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

They’re just using the United name to get Liverpool to panic and pay top dollar.

I’ll be very surprised if there’s anything in this at all.

 

[pascell]

They’re just using the United name to get Liverpool to panic and pay top dollar.

I’ll be very surprised if there’s anything in this at all.

I'm not sure Liverpool are interested in him, they were linked with Caicedo if they don't get Bellingham.

 

[DutchSerb]

Whats his release clause? 120m? Insanity... Do it

Although for that money I'd rather have Bellingham.