English cricket thread

Everyone is going on about the batting (and rightly so) but to me our bowling is the bigger concern.

People talk about Broad and Anderson in the same breath as Wasim and Waqar or Warne and McGrath, but to me they're not at that level as a pair. The wickets stats look amazing, but they've played millions of tests and half of those have been in the most favourable bowling conditions anywhere in the cricket world.

Anderson is on the cusp of the all-time greats, but Broad is a couple of levels below for me. He's a good international bowler who bowls the odd great spell (and they're always in helpful conditions).

Add in the fact that Robinson's no more than medium pace, Stokes is knackered and we don't have a quality spinner, and you get an attack with little penetration when the going gets tough.

We need to find some new x-factor bowlers asap. The breaking of Archer after the 2019 WC is really coming back to hurt us.
 
iKnowNothing said:
Aussies are a bowler short too. That has to be a factor in their game plan. Don’t think England will give cheap wickets to Head next innings.
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I still feel like England could pull off a massive chase, like they did to come from behind against India last year. But we'll need to be lethal tomorrow morning and someone's going to have to play the innings of their life.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Everyone is going on about the batting (and rightly so) but to me our bowling is the bigger concern.

People talk about Broad and Anderson in the same breath as Wasim and Waqar or Warne and McGrath, but to me they're not at that level as a pair. The wickets stats look amazing, but they've played millions of tests and half of those have been in the most favourable bowling conditions anywhere in the cricket world.

Anderson is on the cusp of the all-time greats, but Broad is a couple of levels below for me. He's a good international bowler who bowls the odd great spell (and they're always in helpful conditions).

Add in the fact that Robinson's no more than medium pace, Stokes is knackered and we don't have a quality spinner, and you get an attack with little penetration when the going gets tough.

We need to find some new x-factor bowlers asap. The breaking of Archer after the 2019 WC is really coming back to hurt us.
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Parts of that a little harsh - but agree generally. Robinson coming into this series looking bang average is a big shock, he looked superb last year.

I think even at 2-0 down there's routes back into this series for England with a bit of fitness and selection luck. But a longway back undoubtedly.
 
arnie_ni said:
Where was stokes fielding on the ball, slip? Surely wicket keeper and bowler should be making lbw calls no?
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Not sure mate. I agree it looked out but Marnus was on the walk and they often slip down leg. The bigger error was probably burning a review 30 mins earlier which likely put them off another one.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Everyone is going on about the batting (and rightly so) but to me our bowling is the bigger concern.

People talk about Broad and Anderson in the same breath as Wasim and Waqar or Warne and McGrath, but to me they're not at that level as a pair. The wickets stats look amazing, but they've played millions of tests and half of those have been in the most favourable bowling conditions anywhere in the cricket world.

Anderson is on the cusp of the all-time greats, but Broad is a couple of levels below for me. He's a good international bowler who bowls the odd great spell (and they're always in helpful conditions).

Add in the fact that Robinson's no more than medium pace, Stokes is knackered and we don't have a quality spinner, and you get an attack with little penetration when the going gets tough.

We need to find some new x-factor bowlers asap. The breaking of Archer after the 2019 WC is really coming back to hurt us.
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Come on man, Anderson is 40 :lol:

He’s been almost unplayable in England for a decade. We’re talking about the likes of Starc and Broad being at the end of their careers but Anderson is 6/7 years older, it’s insane what he’s been able to do. Even now, his economy is the best of any bowlers in this test I imagine.

We’re in massive trouble in that department, but I don’t watch enough cricket to know what’s coming in the next few years.
 
I'm not sure why you have to try smash the colour out of the ball to score quickly. The pitch is flat. Crawley scored most of his runs yesterday just driving through cover or flicking through mid wicket for boundaries.
 
Boycott said:
I'm not sure why you have to try smash the colour out of the ball to score quickly. The pitch is flat. Crawley scored most of his runs yesterday just driving through cover or flicking through mid wicket for boundaries.
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It's the T20/ODI mentality
 
JohnnyKills said:
Everyone is going on about the batting (and rightly so) but to me our bowling is the bigger concern.

People talk about Broad and Anderson in the same breath as Wasim and Waqar or Warne and McGrath, but to me they're not at that level as a pair. The wickets stats look amazing, but they've played millions of tests and half of those have been in the most favourable bowling conditions anywhere in the cricket world.

Anderson is on the cusp of the all-time greats, but Broad is a couple of levels below for me. He's a good international bowler who bowls the odd great spell (and they're always in helpful conditions).

Add in the fact that Robinson's no more than medium pace, Stokes is knackered and we don't have a quality spinner, and you get an attack with little penetration when the going gets tough.

We need to find some new x-factor bowlers asap. The breaking of Archer after the 2019 WC is really coming back to hurt us.
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I compleatly agree, we have had perfect conditions aswell in this test, gloomy, heavy cloud cover, nice green pitch on the first day. Yet we haven't looked at all threating.

We have been carrying Anderson in these last two tests in all honesty. He's been well below he is best. I don't think we should pick him at Headingly, a ground he tends to struggle at anyway.

Broad and Robinson have been ok. But nothing more than that and ok isn't enough against a very strong Aus batting line up.

Tounge has really impressed me. Looks very good. So much so I would of given him the new ball at the start of the second innings.

It dosent help that Broad, Anderson and Robinson all bowl at around 80mph. Tongues extra pace really makes a difference. Robinson has never been quick, but Broad and Anderson have definetley lost pace with there advancing years. Having all three in the same lineup aswell as a half fit stokes who can barely bowl and when he does it's of similar pace really dosent work for me.
 
That first over from Shaheen in the Blast :lol:

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We need Mark Wood to get fit and partner Tongue at the expense of Anderson. I'd also consider Woakes for Pope who is clearly not fit. Stokes would be dropped if he wasn't the skipper. The England team seem confident that they can bowl out the Aussies and chase down what they set. They may just do that, but it will need their luck to change and for the Aussies to get over confident.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Everyone is going on about the batting (and rightly so) but to me our bowling is the bigger concern.

People talk about Broad and Anderson in the same breath as Wasim and Waqar or Warne and McGrath, but to me they're not at that level as a pair. The wickets stats look amazing, but they've played millions of tests and half of those have been in the most favourable bowling conditions anywhere in the cricket world.

Anderson is on the cusp of the all-time greats, but Broad is a couple of levels below for me. He's a good international bowler who bowls the odd great spell (and they're always in helpful conditions).

Add in the fact that Robinson's no more than medium pace, Stokes is knackered and we don't have a quality spinner, and you get an attack with little penetration when the going gets tough.

We need to find some new x-factor bowlers asap. The breaking of Archer after the 2019 WC is really coming back to hurt us.
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I agree on a couple of points.

I'd say the world class / tier 1 bowling partnerships I've seen is Waqar & Wasim, McGrath & Lee, and Courtney Walsh and Curtly Ambrose. They're the stand outs for me, certainly since I've been watching cricket.

Broad and Anderson's longevity have definitely pushed them into that tier just below that, I'd say they're probably there with Pollock and Donald.
 
Boycott said:
I'm not sure why you have to try smash the colour out of the ball to score quickly. The pitch is flat. Crawley scored most of his runs yesterday just driving through cover or flicking through mid wicket for boundaries.
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Can’t drive bouncers. They should have tried better to get through that period, but they didn’t. Now we’re going to see that every innings England bat.
 
Daniel Bell-Drummond would be my pick to replace Pope, assuming he's not fit.

He's always been easy on the eye and it's just starting to click for him in the last few seassons.
 
LDUred said:
Daniel Bell-Drummond would be my pick to replace Pope, assuming he's not fit.

He's always been easy on the eye and it's just starting to click for him in the last few seassons.
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I'd have thought it will be Dan Lawrence or a change in order to get Foakes in.
 
Utd heap said:
I'd have thought it will be Dan Lawrence or a change in order to get Foakes in.
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Yeah, England tend to bring in players who've been around the squad recently and Lawrence has done reasonably well. It wouldn't surprise me if he deputises for Pope, especially as he can plays aggressively.
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/66073213

Interesting quote from Root in there, kind of what I’ve been saying about Bazball. The way they played yesterday definitely didn’t tie in with what had happened previously, and what Stokes etc had been saying.

They are putting trust in the players to recognise situations, and it didn’t work yesterday. Root has to take a big chunk of the blame for me. That situation was made for him.
 
Dan_F said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/66073213

Interesting quote from Root in there, kind of what I’ve been saying about Bazball. The way they played yesterday definitely didn’t tie in with what had happened previously, and what Stokes etc had been saying.

They are putting trust in the players to recognise situations, and it didn’t work yesterday. Root has to take a big chunk of the blame for me. That situation was made for him.
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I think you've hit the jist with your second paragraph. England just haven't quite got it right and we are playing a top side that's punished us in the big moments so far.

It doesn't need a total re-write. We need to play it better.

Harry Brook looked completely confused as to his style of play today/last night. Maybe a little more leadership is required in scenarios as intense as the Ashes.
 
Utd heap said:
I think you've hit the jist with your second paragraph. England just haven't quite got it right and we are playing a top side that's punished us in the big moments so far.

It doesn't need a total re-write. We need to play it better.

Harry Brook looked completely confused as to his style of play today/last night. Maybe a little more leadership is required in scenarios as intense as the Ashes.
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No absolutely. You can’t build a culture quickly, it’s definitely still in its infancy, especially for players like Brook.

Unfortunately though, Brook will have to improve against the short ball technically. He’s been found out, as has happened to plenty of young batters in test cricket. He simply can’t play like that. Style of cricket doesn’t come into it, he’s just technically poor against the short stuff by the looks of it.
 
Dan_F said:
No absolutely. You can’t build a culture quickly, it’s definitely still in its infancy, especially for players like Brook.

Unfortunately though, Brook will have to improve against the short ball technically. He’s been found out, as has happened to plenty of young batters in test cricket. He simply can’t play like that. Style of cricket doesn’t come into it, he’s just technically poor against the short stuff by the looks of it.
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I don't think Brook has an issue with the short ball other than he was determined to find a boundary option.

We will soon find out anyway as the Aussies will try him out.
 
English media absolutely destroying the team today. Whether it’s football or cricket the media loves building up the team just so that they can destroy it if it doesn’t go well.
 
Olly Stone made his comeback from injury last night, he lasted 3 balls. With him, Archer, Wood and Mahmood it's like having 4 Martial's in the squad.
 
As a neutral, it's boring to see criticism of this BazBall when England is losing. Neither declaring on the first day of the Ashes nor this shortball stuff was as reckless as giving pakistan a total of 343 in 120 overs on a flat Rawalpindi pitch and yet there was no criticism of that, as England won the match.

You've got to take the positives with the negatives. Its not as if they were world beaters before McCullum came around.

I reckon its England's bowling which has been dreadful in this test match especially when they've been quite lucky with conditions and won the toss etc and yet did more or less nothing with the ball.
 
Dan_F said:
No absolutely. You can’t build a culture quickly, it’s definitely still in its infancy, especially for players like Brook.

Unfortunately though, Brook will have to improve against the short ball technically. He’s been found out, as has happened to plenty of young batters in test cricket. He simply can’t play like that. Style of cricket doesn’t come into it, he’s just technically poor against the short stuff by the looks of it.
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Brook is rubbish against spinners but don't think he has much of a problem against short ball from what I've seen.
 
So how many do Australia need before they declare, normally 400 should be more than enough but I wonder if last summer will make them bat a bit longer than they should.
 
KM said:
Brook is rubbish against spinners but don't think he has much of a problem against short ball from what I've seen.
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He certainly played like he did. If he doesn’t, it makes the way he played even more dumb.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
So how many do Australia need before they declare, normally 400 should be more than enough but I wonder if last summer will make them bat a bit longer than they should.
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Cummins is a tad conservative as a captain, I expect more than 450.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
English media absolutely destroying the team today. Whether it’s football or cricket the media loves building up the team just so that they can destroy it if it doesn’t go well.
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This country loves being dramatic. This style of play needs a bit of tweaking, a spinner and some properly quick bowlers. Expecting England to come out and dominate so ruthlessly against a top team a year into this style of play is almost as daft as some of the shots as England played. My only concern really is if the environment England have created is too soft to learn from errors and demand more out of players (i.e. they will never tell anyone they are wrong or if the did something stupid).
 
KM said:
Cummins is a tad conservative as a captain, I expect more than 450.
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Gives England about 4 sessions. With no frontline spinner, there’s an angle into this game (a draw at least!) for England if they can put their ego away.
 
crappycraperson said:
I think the opposite. Their bowling is not that great. Likes of Smith and Labuschagne would turn up in coming matches. Oz in fact have a better bowler in Starc they can bring in for Boland to further strengthen. It will be down to their batting to pull off heists via Bazball.
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As I had said at the end of the last test that despite some saying that England would be stronger from next test onwards, it would be Oz that would build on the first win. Likes of Smith now standing up. Even with Oz down a full time bowler in Lyon, England look down in the dumps right now. Given the same there is a chance they can again pull off a Bazball inspired heist but it won't be by design or strength of their quality. England bowling is staggeringly below par for a side that wants to participate in next WTC final.
 
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...gland-batters-abdicate-responsibility-1385153

Interesting article which suggests the management aren't too happy.
On McCullum - "He is understood to be just as dismayed at how things have played out in the last few days."

Also this;
"Now is as good a time as any to talk about trust. Unlike previous Ashes series where media engagements have been kept to a minimum, McCullum and Stokes figured giving players ownership of their games extended to off-field matters. Following the interviews given by Zak Crawley - "we'll win by, I don't know, 150" - and Ollie Robinson stirring the pot enough to turn the contents to mush, there is fear, and a hint of anger, among the management group, including managing director Rob Key, that they have lost their bearings. Whether high on their own supply or merely indulging the hype, all this freedom is being taken for granted. The responsibility that came as part of this deal is not being upheld."
 
KM said:
As a neutral, it's boring to see criticism of this BazBall when England is losing. Neither declaring on the first day of the Ashes nor this shortball stuff was as reckless as giving pakistan a total of 343 in 120 overs on a flat Rawalpindi pitch and yet there was no criticism of that, as England won the match.

You've got to take the positives with the negatives. Its not as if they were world beaters before McCullum came around.

I reckon its England's bowling which has been dreadful in this test match especially when they've been quite lucky with conditions and won the toss etc and yet did more or less nothing with the ball.
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Why should any decision made under the garb of "Bazball" escape any criticism? Declaration after first innings and third have vastly different implications. In any case, evaluations of most sporting decisions are impacted a huge amount by the end result. See any football tactic for comparison.

I agree that their main problem is definitely the sub par bowling attack. Bar a couple of spells by Broad, none of their bowlers have looked remotely threatening to the level expected from top test sides.
 
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