Couldn't agree more, he's a step up on McClaren and Sven etc I like that he tried to use the youth so he's winning fans with his selection, but I couldn't agree more, even someone like Barry who had a good season and would have done a job, but I'd like to him play Welbeck up top for the final game, people knock Danny, but his NT record is very good.
England at World Cup 2014
- Thread starter gooDevil
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Couldn't agree more, he's a step up on McClaren and Sven etc I like that he tried to use the youth so he's winning fans with his selection, but I couldn't agree more, even someone like Barry who had a good season and would have done a job, but I'd like to him play Welbeck up top for the final game, people knock Danny, but his NT record is very good.
I don't think you can make that claim, until we see which team wins it. Greece won the Euro's with a clear identity and way to play and nobody could claim that side was anywhere near as talented as this England team.
You don't need to have an incredible team to win a world cup. With some luck, a decent draw, a good system that works with the players etc you can win it without world-stars. We certainly at the very least have the team to do well.
To be fair, I'm someone that thinks this tournament wasn't as disastrous as made out. We were ridiculously unlucky to lose both games against two very good sides and played good football with a very inexperienced squad and sadly some individual errors and horrible performances from players that won't be there in 2018 cost us. Had we had an easier group, we probably would've gone through quite easily, gained confidence and reached the quarters. From there we would've faced a side probably superior to us and then we'd need a bit of luck to advance, as well as some tactical sense. Which Roy lacs.
Roy shouldn't be manager though. All I know is that a Scolari or Mourinho would at least have a gameplan rather than just putting together a team and hoping it does well, whilst chucking on some random subs without ever actually putting any tactical thought in to it. I know a Scolari or Mourinho would have been able to organize the team so that in both games, straight after scoring we didn't get ahead of ourselves and concede on the break and instead settled a bit.
Roy is a horrible manager. He's only good at playing ancient football at average clubs, hence why he actually did relatively OK at the Euro's, finishing top of a difficult group and only going out on pen's to a good Italy. He played his standard football and it worked a bit. Now he has some talented youngsters he doesn't know what to do, so he just sticks 4 attackers out and tells them to run at the other team.
I disagree, I don't think the luck was the cause of the defeats. Players out of position, poor defending and lack of finishing were the main causes.
The team performed ok, but ok is not good enough at the world cup.
I can't believe you would spew this crap. On paper, you would expect England to breeze past Italy & Uruguay but England got taught football lessons they would never forget in a long time.
The team performance was piss-poor. The big players flopped. None of them out there showed any bravery - I was slightly happy Carrick wasn't part of this show of shame. He would have been blamed for the loss entirely.
Well yeah, it's hard to describe those defeats as unlucky...I mean, we're not talking about deflected goals à la pinball wizard Frank Lampard.
Please quit this balderdash about luck. There's no luck in football. What you put in is the reward you would get. Let's admit for once England aren't good enough at this level and quit the nonsensical stuff.
Unlucky since 1966? If it's like a raffle draw, logic dictates England should have made at least one final appearance since then. Uruguay were better overall & Italy did what's required to take the maximum points.
Luck doesn't win football, skills do. If luck has any bearing in it, West Ham or Norwich should have won the Premier League in the last 6 years. Until the media stop overhyping mediocre players, our generation will never witness England lift the World Cup or Euro Championship.
A lot is said about the number of foreigners in the PL but I think the problem could equally be pointed at the lack of English players playing outside of their own league
Dont think that is the problem. Look at the German Team.
Neuer = Bundesliga
Boateng = Bundesliga
Höwedes = Bundesliga
Hummels = Bundesliga
Lahm = Bundesliga
Schweinsteiger = Bundesliga
Götze = Bundesliga
Draxler = Bundesliga
Ginter = Bundesliga
Weidenfeller = Bundesliga
Zieler = Bundesliga
Großkreutz = Bundesliga
Kroos = Bundesliga
Müller = Bundesliga
Durm = Bundesliga
Kramer = Bundesliga
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Klose = Serie A (already NT when in the Bundesliga)
Mertesacker = EPL (already NT when in the Bundesliga)
Podolski = EPL (already NT when in the Bundesliga)
Özil = EPL (already NT when in the Bundesliga)
Khedira = La Liga (already NT when in the Bundesliga)
Mustafi = Serie A
I think it depends more on what roles the players have in their respective clubs.
13/16 Bundesliga players in the German Team played in the Champions League last season and in one of the top three clubs in Germany (Bayern, Dortmund, Schalke)
5/7 in other leagues played in the Champions League and/or had key roles in their teams.
While in England you mostly get the feeling that the english players are nice additions in the big clubs, but they are built around the international Superstars.
We don't have mediocre players and never have, England have produced some fantastic individual players in last 10 years, how shite England have been as a collective in that same time frame are 2 totally different subjects and should not be linked. Bottom line is, I'm sick of hater country's bashing England for no reason other than its England and I'm sick of boring unpatriotic negative Englishmen sticking the boot in along with them BUT would have been the first to
It's easy to criticize in failure, but what is wrong with Roy Hodgson's team really? Before the competition everyone looked at it and said 'that's a good side' (on paper) and how they played on the pitch proved it was a good side and nothing too much wrong with it other than possibly experience (which will come).
I say stick prime Rio and John Terry and this England team and possibly Paul Scholes and we would have had a fantastic side, so whats that 3 players?
Costa Rica are through, but everyone with half of brain cell and slight knowledge on football know they aren't better than England and what the games against Uruguay and Italy showed me is those sides aren't better than us either even though the results never went England's way.
Euro 12, England went out in the quarter finals on a penalty shoot-out but it was a terrible competition/England played dire and there was seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel in terms of future, 2 years later ok we've lost both our World Cup games and are out at the first hurdle but we are optimistic by what I've seen and that seems to be general opinion by people in country other than folk on the Red Cafe, why?
England went out but playing great attacking football, something we've not seem since 2004, taking it to other teams, producing exciting youngsters, SHOWING PROGRESS, so all this progress in 2 years, why do we keep hearing the same shite and negativity?
Bore off.
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The problem is not necessarily the lack of English players outside their league - it's more like the dwindling number of English players in the top 4 clubs. Personally, I think 95% of the players invited to the national team camp should be strictly chosen from the top 3 premier league sides.
This would guarantee team chemistry as many of them already know the strengths & weaknesses of each other. It also ensures the players invited are blessed with a wealth of experience in tension-soaked high pressure games like the Champions League.
When you look at the players Roy invited, it cannot but self-destruct. What does Cahill know about Jaglieka as far as partnership is concerned? Gerrard-Henderson partnership haven't played a top tier game ever before. Sturridge & Rooney know nothing about each other until they play in friendlies once in 3 months.
I looked at the last World Cup winners. About 8 of the starting XI play in the same team. Puyol & Pique were teammates. Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets were team mates. Pedro & Villa in the attack were team mates as at then - seriously, why won't they gel? The idea of inviting players based on quota system like England does is self-harming.
Jaglieka & Henderson had no business in the 3 Lions.
You'd struggle to find 5 capable players between them. Liverpool have a decent crop but City and Chelsea hardly have anything to offer at this level when it comes to English talent. Sturridge and Henderson are possibly the only two young English players from top 3 sides that you could build something on.
The principle is good but you're not going to achieve that. English players are not good enough to play at the top club level in their own league and they don't go abroad so you're bound to have a team full of mid-table talent or players who ply their trade at big English clubs without being essential members of their respective teams. Name English internationals who are among the best players at their clubs - Rooney, Sturridge, someone else?
We don't have mediocre players and never have, England have produced some fantastic individual players in last 10 years, how shite England have been as a collective in that same time frame are 2 totally different subjects and those subjects should not be linked. Bottom line is, I'm sick of hater country's bashing England for no reason other than its England and I'm sick of boring unpatriotic negative Englishmen sticking the boot along with them BUT will be the first toshould England be successful in the future.
Stick prime Rio and John Terry and this England team and possibly Paul Scholes and we would have had a fantastic side, so whats that 3 players?
Costa Rica are through, but everyone with half of brain cell and slight knowledge on football know they aren't better than England and what the games against Uruguay and Italy showed me is those sides aren't better than us either even though the results never went England's way.
Euro 12, England went out in the quarter finals on a penalty shoot-out but it was a terrible competition/England played dire and there was seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel in terms of future, 2 years later ok we've lost both our World Cup games and are out at the first hurdle but we are optimistic by what I've seen and that seems to be general opinion by people in country other than folk on the Red Cafe, why?
England went out but playing great attacking football, something we've not seem since 2004, taking it to other teams, producing exciting youngsters, SHOWING PROGRESS, so all this progress in 2 years, we do we keep hearing the same shite and negativity?
Bore off.
Of course - FIFA would make another cup for England as the most exciting attacking football side in the tourney. You should be ashamed of the drivel you post up there. You have been beclouded by sheer patriotism & the hyperbole you get to hear on Skysports concerning overrated featherweights like Glen Johnson & Henderson. Keep at it, you may never witness this country lift a World Cup in your lifetime if you don't admit there's a problem somewhere.
Then the FA should introduce a scheme where the top 4 clubs must encourage the thriving of English talents. Has Jaglieka ever played in a competitive game outside the shores of England ever before? Why should he be trusted to protect Hart just because he does a decent job in his comfort zone at Goodison Park?
What a load of rubbish. Yes, there is. A bit of luck can turn a terrible result in to a good one. We aren't a good enough team to sail through purely on skill, I agree but if you actually watched both games you can quite clearly see we were very unfortunate to lose both games, it was also the result of a lack of experience and some naive tactics, not being "Not good enough."
No luck in football eh? Seriously, of course there is. Chelsea had heaps of it on the way to their champions league win for one.
I don't see what you're trying to get at with this. I'm not saying its only luck holding us back from winning the thing. I'm saying we were a bit unlucky in the group stages and didn't really deserve to go out on the basis of our play. Also; I'm talking purely about this tournament, not about England since 1966. We haven't been good enough to win it since then (Apart from maybe a couple of teams who were good enough) and that's not down to luck. Of course we haven't done as well as we should have, that's not my point whatsoever. I'm talking about here and now.
Uruguay were better overall?! Did you even watch the game? First person I've seen say this and it sounds ridiculous. We were easily the better team. They had 2 shots on target the entire match, a world-class clinical striker took their two only real chances of the game. We had all the play otherwise, they were not better overall by any means. We lacked the experience and clinical play needed to win the game, that's all. Not the "skill". Uruguay could barely pass the ball most of the time, they weren't skilful they were hard-working and hard to beat. Against Italy, it was a more even match but we took the game to a very good side which we haven't done in a tournament in a long while, had plenty of chances and tactical naivety cost us. We were certainly unlucky not to get a point.
The media overhyping mediocre players? I've barely seen the media hype up anyone. They've been pretty flat with this side since the World Cup if I'm honest, as has everyone else. Nobody thinks this side are world-beaters anymore. Most actually underrate the side and bash it more than necessary if anything.
There are clearly issues at grass roots but it doesn't explain away the constant underachievement of what are a relatively decent bunch of players.
Why are you saying that anyone who doesn't refuse to totally bash this side is refusing to see there's problems? I know there are issues. I've talked about it numerous times, I'm sure that guy also knows there are big issues in the National Team that need to be fixed.
However, I refuse to pull apart a young, inexperienced side who gave two good sides (Especially Italy) a very good game and played some nice football along the way. They were let down by Stevie Me and a terrible defense. We saw some promising signs for 2018. Not signs of a world-beating, conquering side but one that actually play football and its a start. We didn't deserve to go out, if the referee against Uruguay had done his job and sent Godin off for a blatant second yellow card we'd probably still be in the tournament, likely with 3 points on the board. Fine margins in tournaments. Instead, he remained on the field and Suarez scored from practically his only two touches of the match.
The problem wasn't with the young players we put out. Henderson was not an "Overrated featherweight", he was actually very good considering he had to cover for Gerrard the entire time. He's no world-beater but he's a working player, with a good eye for a pass and a very good engine and overall good physically. Players like him are good to have. He didn't give a bad account of himself. He was crucial in a title-challenging Liverpool side and is improving all the time, give him a break ffs. Johnson wasn't that bad, Baines was far worse, but he's still a weak spot and won't be in 2018. Also, not sure you actually listen to the media anymore but you sound like you're coming from 2009 - because all I've heard 24/7 is how rubbish Glen Johnson is, how useless Rooney is and how average the team is for a while now. There's no hyperbole.
The problems lied not with our next generation but with some of the current one: Baines, Gerrard, Jagielka and Hart were the four worst. Now Hart will probably be in 2018, I hope not but he probably will be. The rest won't, so hopefully we get some players coming through by then.
The major issue however was tactics. Hodgson was a dinosaur, as usual. I won't go in to detail as there are numerous threads on what he got wrong and why we lost games and I myself have talked about it numerous times. He was pretty useless tactically and to get anywhere in a World Cup, you need a manager who is tactically sound.
Cahill & Jagielka formed a decent partnership in qualifiers and played numerous games together. Other partnerships didn't work as well, there honestly wasn't that much else to turn to.
Again, i don't understand this opinion. If there are problems at grass-roots then why are England current Under 17 European Champions?
Only opinion i can understand is these youngsters not being given chances in the Premier League, but i believe that is changing. Last season more so, i saw clubs giving chances to young players, hence England taking the likes of Barkley/Sterling/Shaw to the World Cup (players who only emerged last season).
I think we're improving gradually now. Even the youngsters we put in for this tournament I feel did well, like I said it was actually more the senior's that let the side down.
England haven't produced a genuine world superstar for over 40 years. Look at France, Germany, Spain, Italy, The Netherlands and even Portugal. England have never produced a GOAT player since 66 when Bobby Charlton was probably the closest to one. And this is part of the problem because more often then not, to win a major International tournament you need that X factor type of player. I guess the question to answer is, Why can't England produce a future ballon d'or winner?
Technically we had a Ballon d'or player in 2001 when Michael Owen won it.
He wasn't the greatest player in the world at the time. We develop average to good players but we never seem to have an all time great. Every other major football nation has this but we don't.
Highest proportion of foreigners in the Premier League, less chances for English players? Although you could argue that a future ballon d'or winner will make it under any circumstances, I don't think that's the case.
Bolded parts sum up the failures of England in the last years IMO.
I know, was just saying.
We've still had some top players in that time at the absolute top of the game though. Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes to name a few.
No offense but how old are you? Do you really want me to write a list out of English players who was viewed not just in England as the best (or one of) players in their area of expertise?
For a starters i think people forget just how good the likes of Steven Gerrard was, then players like Alan Shearer who was the most lethal striker in Europe mid to late 90's.
I think English and Premier League players in general get overlooked for the Ballon D'ore anyway, but that's a different subject altogether.
I am not too disheartened by our performances. As much as Woy is a bit of a dinosaur tactically, at least he had the balls to play a pretty youthful side, something none of the last few managers have done.
To make the step up we need a top draw manager, someone who organises the defence and gets us attacking with an actual game plan. We do have decent players, but its the overall strategy which is weak. Lesser teams have shown the value of strong organisation.
Shame we are going home as we played OK in parts, but at least there is a little hope for the future, something we haven't had for a while.......
To make the step up we need a top draw manager, someone who organises the defence and gets us attacking with an actual game plan. We do have decent players, but its the overall strategy which is weak. Lesser teams have shown the value of strong organisation.
Shame we are going home as we played OK in parts, but at least there is a little hope for the future, something we haven't had for a while.......
I know, was just saying.
We've still had some top players in that time at the absolute top of the game though. Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes to name a few.
We have has some decent players, but what I've noticed with England (and not just in football btw) is that our sportsmen tend to show potential to be world class, but then the media over hypes them too much and they never live up to the hype. Our cricketers are another example of this and it makes me think that this must be an English mentality thing because it happen in other team sports involving England.
Probably older then you. So Alan Shearer is on the same level as Messi, Maradona, Gerd Muller, Eusebio, Both Ronaldo's, Van Basten, Cruyff, Romario. Don't compare Gerrard to midfield greats he's nowhere near.
Is likes of Ibrahimovic comparable to them? Probably not.
For all Spanish success recently how many Ballon-D'ore winners they had? 0 - How many of their players 08-12 will truly be remembered as all-time greats?
England like Spain have had great players, comparable to the Ibrhaimovic's, but the Messi's/Ronaldo's/Maradona's don't come along all the time and i wouldn't say Spain have had one either.
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Linneker was at his peak, best striker of his generation I think.
Gascoigne was, for 18 months, probably the best midfielder in the world.
And Jimmy Greaves is, to me, still the greatest striker to ever play football.
They've been competing with the likes of Messi and Ronaldo and besides many have compared Iniesta to Zidane and Iniesta and Xaxi have been in the mix. Those two will go down as two of the greatest in history. England do not create players to that level. We produce average to good players and it's been this way for about the last 40 years.
Paul Scholes?
Iniesta is a great player, but he's not in the same league as Zidane and I think Xavi's legacy will be overrated to an extent as his battery life and World Class level lasted only 4 years.
Van Basten was around Linekers time.
What years are you putting Gascoigne as the best midfielder.
Greaves was 50 years ago.
Is it only England - or do I miss stars that play in the EPL? When you look at the players that shone until now it was seldom EPL players.
This wasn't even an inexperienced side, how many chances did genuine youngsters get to play meaningful minutes? What was the actual gameplan we had going into the games? It all comes down to the approach and the mentality, we are simply perennial losers even when the expectations are as low as ever we manage to find a way to disappoint.
It's kinda hilarious thinking back to the chat before the tournament. Costa Rica were supposed to be the automatic points in the group and yet they are the best team with their biggest name being a guy Arsenal loaned out and a bloke who played for newly relegated Fulham. The US are having a brilliant tournament, are outmatched in so many ways and yet were literally a shot away from two wins and qualifying. Go look at the individuals that make up Chile's defence that kept Spain quite and tell me how the hell they managed that considering your supposed to need 'stars' to succeed at this level. Even bloody Australia (no offense to any Aussies intended) with Tim Cahill leading the charge are putting up more of a show than England did.
It's always the name on the shirt, it's always the talk about how good they are for their club and it's never really honest analysis. England just don't possess any cohesiveness and genuine player flaws are swept under the rug as if they don't exist. Bring on the Euros I guess when the next generation of young hopefuls can be molded by the tactically brilliant mind of Woy Hodgson.
It's kinda hilarious thinking back to the chat before the tournament. Costa Rica were supposed to be the automatic points in the group and yet they are the best team with their biggest name being a guy Arsenal loaned out and a bloke who played for newly relegated Fulham. The US are having a brilliant tournament, are outmatched in so many ways and yet were literally a shot away from two wins and qualifying. Go look at the individuals that make up Chile's defence that kept Spain quite and tell me how the hell they managed that considering your supposed to need 'stars' to succeed at this level. Even bloody Australia (no offense to any Aussies intended) with Tim Cahill leading the charge are putting up more of a show than England did.
It's always the name on the shirt, it's always the talk about how good they are for their club and it's never really honest analysis. England just don't possess any cohesiveness and genuine player flaws are swept under the rug as if they don't exist. Bring on the Euros I guess when the next generation of young hopefuls can be molded by the tactically brilliant mind of Woy Hodgson.
Scholes although very good won't be up there as a GOAT. England don't have players of that level. Portugal for example have Eusebio and Ronaldo, so why can't we get a player somewhere of that level? A major football nation we should have one somewhere.
Some country's just do that, poverty probably as something to do with it, poor country's like Brazil/Argentina/Portugal - All kids have is a football and they play from getting up until they go to bed, kids from western nations are spoiled and have other things in life other than a football.
Look at Uruguay - Population of just over 3 million yet won the World Cup twice and probably have the best strike force in the world right now in Suarez and Cavani.
Still to say England have never produced truly great players is unfair as we've had players who have left their mark on the game and won MOTM's on some of the biggest stages of them all (Champions League final) and usually have several players per generation highly regarded as the best (or one of) in their area of expertise.
That will be because of tiredness or poor defending. Many would say Bayern were unlucky in 1999 final but how about Beckham's classy corners or the substitutions Fergie made in the end. There's no luck in football. When opportunity meets a well-prepared team, the losing team uses tough luck as an excuse.
How were we unfortunate? Rooney missed about 3-4 clear cut chances a player of his calibre should be scoring. That's not down to luck, that's just poor performance.
Chelsea won that competition cos they defended ever so well & when they conceded goals, they were brave enough to go to the other end of the pitch to score.
What do you mean by on the basis of our play? Games are determined by the number of goals you score not how pretty you play. On the basis of beauty, Arsenal & Swansea should be winning the Premier League every season. Of what essence is pretty football without scoring?
Uruguay were better overall. They had a plan & their tactics worked a trick. They put a man-marker each on Gerrard & Rooney and England's creative hub was neutralised. It was always going to be down to fine margins - individual brilliance in front of goal. Suarez & Rooney had 4 chances each. Suarez converted 2 of them and Rooney could only score one of his chances.
2 is greater than 1, no?
Yes, they overhyped England before the tourney. A cursory glance at Guardian Sports would see various articles hyping Gerrard as the messiah that would take England to the promised land. The hype raises expectations & it puts enormous pressure on the players. The outcome is always horrible.