Pretty sure that's the general feeling among our spanish supporters. I fully agree on Dybala
Alli, Mbappe and Dembele are incredible talents, the latter two potentially better than Hazard.
Eden Hazard to Real Madrid?
- Thread starter BlueCelery
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Alli, Mbappe and Dembele are incredible talents, the latter two potentially better than Hazard.
As I said it's a question of taste.Our team is quite old and will need changes in the summer.A goalkeeper(will be expensive)a CB,a second left back,perhaps a midfielder since Modric is 31/32 and can't play all the minutes.Cristiano is 32 and Benzema 30.He is in a good moment of his career but has many shadows in his game.
If we had infinite money I would be happy with Hazard but since is an investment for the next 3/4 years I feel that we should buy some of this new promises with more margin for growth.
Well...as for the keeper, let's see how the season ends. Keylor was fantastic just last season, and before that was incredible at levante. This season he came back from a bad injury. Let's not lose all hope on him yet
As for CB, your compatriot Vallejo's coming back. We do need a backup LB and maybe RB(if somebody takes danilo off our hands). In midfield, we have marcos llorente who will compete with casemiro, kovavic will be modric's backup and heir, we'll have to see what happens to james and isco. Asensio can play there as well though and i expect him to improve. Up front, we have the BBC, Morata and Lucas, plus asensio and james. If both james and isco leave we'll have to sign someone, and it will likely be a galactico. In that case, i don't know what we can do. Dybala could play as a #10 which would mean one of modric or kroos on the bench. Dembele and Mbappe won't come to be backups and can only play as forwards. Hazard's the same.
Think we should go for a box-to-box CM with energy, dribbling and a good final ball, imho. Pogba would have been perfect for us honestly
I can't see Hazard and all of BBC playing together, at least not in any reasonable tactical setup. And so far there's been no indication for Real selling or benching one of BBC. So it's all a bit of a mystery and maybe this rumour is just bullshit. If not, I'd love to see Zidane's masterplan too, because so far it looks more like another Beckham situation.
4-2-4 with Benzama and Ronaldo as strikers?Kante and Casemiro/Modric (depending on the opponent) in the middle.
We can take Kroos off their hands
No offense, but in my book that would be one of those not really reasonable setups. Pretty much a 'let's-somehow-fit-Beckham-into-this-team' type of formation.
Aha!We can take Kroos off their hands
Dont want him to leave.
Want all the best players in the PL
Want all the best players in the PL
Ahhh, Callejon, Pedro, Sanchez, Ozil etc could succeed at Madrid/Barca but Hazard on the other hand would fail because he doesn't score 40 goals a season.
Hazard is a player that transcends numbers like @LuisNaniencia implied & that's why we've won 2 of the last 3 titles when he's up for it.
I can't believe people actually rate players based on stats & youtube videos instead of watching games to see their influence. What a time to be alive.
Christ you speak some utter bollocks when it comes to your darling Hazard, god forbid anyone not agree with your opinion that he's the best person to ever grace this earth.
Those players for the most part were offloaded to the EPL because they were either replaced by far superior players or were not needed, only to become amongst the most talented and best players in our league. This rubbish about the La Liga being an easy league is getting boring. It's not. In terms of technical ability it's a far superior league, the EPL just overcompensates for its lack of ability with overly physical styles of play and Big Sam tactics. It's a more competitive league, yes, but that's mainly due to the fact that every team is fecking loaded and bar exception seasons, any team can beat anyone as the quality just isn't very good
Also I haven't seen anyone say Hazard wouldn't do well in Spain. For the money being paid though Madrid would expect more than a player who looks good and can play some pretty passes. He isn't as lethal as the best players in Spain, which is why he isn't as good as them imo.
You can argue stats not being important all you like, but when it comes to the world's best players that's what everyone expects, it's the one thing that can seperate them in today's game. For eg; No-one would give a feck about how good Messi's dribbling was if he didn't have an end product, if he wasn't getting phenomenal goals and assists. It's the difference between Ben Arfa and Messi, both good on the ball but one is the best in the world. (Not comparing Arfa to Hazard btw, he's obviously a far superior player, just an example)
I was worried when you guys got Hazard because I always thought if he became more lethal he would be one of the best in the world, but since joining he hasn't gone up a level imo at all. For all the talent he has he will still he be amongst the best players in the league but he doesn't seem to have the ambition to improve his game to go to the next level.
You've just described Kovacic (except for the final ball).
Yeah, one better than kovacic
Again, I've already said I'm not debating Hazard on here again. He's overrated because he doesn't score 30 goals every season & Dybala, Mbappe & Dembele are already better. Got it.
Kovacic was great this season whenever he had the chance to play. You won't find anyone better out there with all the attributes you've mentioned.
Don't worry, you'll get your shot in 4-5 years time for roughly £450 mill taking current trajectory of player price inflation into consideration.
It's going to happen sooner or later, I'm 100% sure of it.
Fingers crossed as I think it will derail Chelsea in the same way we were without Ronaldo.
If you throw into the mix Costa they'd be fecked.
If you throw into the mix Costa they'd be fecked.
Unbelievable how underrated Hazard is on here...
He's a magical player and would improve even further under Zidane, who he looks up to.
For me he is just below Messi/Cristiano next to players like Bale or Neymar.
He's a magical player and would improve even further under Zidane, who he looks up to.
For me he is just below Messi/Cristiano next to players like Bale or Neymar.
Disagree. In fact, I won't really be bothered if Costa leaves and is replaced by Lukaku. Don't think we'd skip a beat and may actually improve as a team.
Hazard leaving would really hurt but surely he'd be replaced by a very good player. Obviously not a like for like in terms of quality but I can see us just falling off a cliff if he goes.
Anyways, I believe Hazard has 3 years left on his contract so it's not like he's got much leverage if he wanted out. We've seen our club get great fees for players we weren't even using at the time. Mata, Lukaku, Luiz, De Bruyne, Schürrle, Oscar. It would surely take an amount that even Real Madrid wouldn't go near to prize away our transcendent superstar.
I think it would take £100m to sign him. At least I'd be very let down by the club if they got anything less.
Have you seen the dark arts they meddle in down in Madrid when they want a player?
You'll have Platini, Hazard's mum and the postman from the village he grew up in all out in the media crying about slavery and how poor little Eden always have had a dream to play for Madrid, with Hazard downing tools and sulking (like he has shown very capable of on previous occasions.)
They'll have to pay, sure, but you can just sense Perez creaming himself over reclaiming the transfer muppet throne from Woody as we speak.
Hm, do you really think accomodating an aging BBC* by changing the midfield (= ditching several out of Modric, Kroos, Kovacic, Isco in favour of Verratti/Nainggolan or the likes) would be a good idea?
I'm not even sure more directness in midfield would be the solution, because imo Real is mainly suffering from too much directness. But assumed it'd work, wouldn't it be better to build the future around the more collective-orientated (and younger) players anyway? Gradually changing the team's style to fit these players rather than changing the players to fit a makeshift style?
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*mostly Ronaldo, actually; Bale and Benzema are more adaptable.
@Vato Same here. Just not sure he'd improve under Zidane.
Agreed, Kovacic has been great.
Out of curiosity, who has said this? Only thing I've read that's remotely similar is a few posters saying Dybala is of a similar level and that Mbappe and Dembele had the potential to surpass him.
Him not scoring goals has no relevance to players of that ilk. If he's to be compared to the best players in the world his productivity should be measured in comparison to them, shouldn't it?
Continue doing what you do though, I shouldn't have bothered considering you've claimed Hazard is the best player in the world in the past, my bad.
Isn't that more of the Barca way?
Having their players talking up someone in the media and saying they'd be great at Barca and they'd love playing with them.Only if he played a comparable role (not on the team sheet, but on the pitch). Otherwise it wouldn't tell much.
Isn't that more of the Barca way?
Barca prefer the tactic of players talking to the media plus attacking them and plastering them with Barca shirts during internationals, Madrid leans more towards engaging the mothers and dodgy and discredited twats from UEFA.
Also the two club newspapers partake of course, releasing articles about how said player cries himself to sleep each night since he is being held back from joining their glorious teams.
We're no slouches ourselves. But atleast we use the honest approach of just paying ridiculous amounts of money to both club and player plus the alluring prospect of selling more kits and shampoos than anyone else if they join. Moral victory.
Well you wouldn't agree as your a Chelsea fan.
Just looking at it objectively. We aren't Arsenal or Liverpool who would sell our star player and not adequately replace them and settle for mediocrity. Like when RvP or Suarez were sold.
If our best player is sold we'd surely go out and make a splashy signing or two to make up for his loss.
He plays a similar role to the world's best players. No-one is discounting the fact that's he great with the ball at his feet and build-up play, but so is every other player he should be competing with, given his talent. The only difference is they are much more lethal and clinical. As I said, Messi could run rings around everyone all game long, but if he wasn't getting others goals or putting them in the back of the net himself, no-one would give a feck, it's why it's very difficult for playmakers to get Ballon D'ors, they don't get recognised. It's not taking anything away from how good they are, but at the top level stats is what separates the best players, the ability to both influence and kill off games. As of now, Hazard seems to only really do one of those things.
Another example I could use is Cavani - he has probably the best movement out of any forward in the game atm. His movement off the ball is phenomenal, but he regularly fluffs his chances, which is why he isn't considered one of the best in the world.
You just have to look at performances from Neymar for both Brazil and Barcelona to see how important that killer instinct is. Robben created a career out of a single move of cutting off the wing and whipping in goals, he's dominated Champions League ties with that move. It's all speculation of course, but if Madrid were to pay close to or a world record fee, I'm guessing they would want a player who wins games on his own, not just gets other players involved by creating space etc. That's genuinely why I believe Costa has been Chelsea's most influential player this season, without him I don't think they would have been doing as well as they have.
Hazard is 26 now, he's no longer a talent, he's an established player in his peak and it's a shame that this seems to be the extent of how good he's going to become because given his talent he could have been much more dynamic and lethal. I'm judging him on merit of his talent, he's the best player in the league when on form but he could have and should have been much more. He would probably the third or fourth best player at Real Madrid if he was to move, which is a shame as if he added more to his game he could have been competing for Ballon D'or's etc.
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Assuming he was sold, who would you want Chelsea to go for? Getting a similar talent to Hazard would cost a huge amount and it's been unlike Chelsea to splash the cash in recent seasons. Then again, you lot really haven't had to, so I'm not sure.
Assuming you mean 'best goalscorers' by 'best players', he isn't.
He's a playmaker who roams around the wings and the centre of the pitch. Same thing Neymar and Messi do. Same thing Griezmann does to an extent (without the take-ons and dribbles etc)
Also that's a bit of a funny statement as the world's best players generally are also the world's best goal-scorers. People severely underrate how difficult it is to score goals around here, probably the hardest skill in the game. It requires movement, composure, reflexes, anticipation, skill, accuracy, just to name a few.
It wins games and the world's best players do that best, win games.
So far you mentioned Messi, Neymar, Cavani, Robben, Griezmann. I suppose that means Ronaldo, Suarez and Bale are also up for discussion. Plus Hazard. But these players have very different characteristics and tasks in their team's offensive game.
So when you say this...
...it doesn't work at all for at least half of them. They aren't all at a similar level of technique, creativity, playmaking skills. So I already disagree with your basic assumption that scoring output is the only difference between world class offensive players.
If you read my post I explained why Cavani wasn't one of them, despite being probably the best in the world at what he excels at, movement. Ronaldo, Suarez and Bale aren't up for discussion, because they score goals, it's really not that difficult to see the pattern. Role in a team or not, they all do the same thing- win games by scoring or assisting goals.
Ronaldo, Messi, Bale, Robben, Lewandowski, Neymar, Suarez, Griezmann, you name it. Regardless of what their role in a set up is, they influence matches and kill them off by being clinical. Take this into account, had you taken Costa out of Chelsea this season do you think they'd be so far ahead? Would Hazard's playmaking skills be enough assuming they had a less clinical striker, who was constantly squandering chances? I think it's safe to assume, no, they wouldn't. Hence why scoring goals is both the most difficult and most important part of football.
Playmaking is all good and well, Hazard is one of the best in the world at it, but he's a level below the elite who are much more lethal. I'm not just talking about scoring goals, I'm talking about being directly involved in them, either through finishing them or assisting them. The final ball is much more important than the build-up play before it. No-one gives a feck how you score, as long as you score.
He's great at what he does, but had he been in Neymar's boots in that PSG game for eg, with their backs against the walls, he wouldn't have had the ability or bottle to mount a comeback like Neymar inspired with the FK, that's the moments that Madrid would be wanting to pay that kind of money for, not for a faster and stronger Isco.
I have perfectly understood what you said about Cavani. But you used him as an example for your main statement that goalscoring ability makes or breaks the 'best players'. He was just a 'break' example, but still served as a valid comparison in your eyes, which marked the range of player types you think are comparable under the goalscoring criterion.
Let's stop it, our views on the game are too different.
Sorry, that doesn't make much sense to me. There's much more to football and these players than that.
Let's stop it, our views on the game are too different.
I don't completely disagree with you, other positions can be just as important, I was just discussing that those players and those traits are regularly overlooked due to the importance of goals. I appreciate an Iniesta as much as the next fan, but consistently scoring 20-30+ goals a season is a phenomenal trait that only the best players can manage.
'Overlooked' is exactly the right word in my opinion. Which doesn't mean 'objectively less important' or 'less difficult', but rather undervalued. But I think it became quite clear where our respective priorities differ and it doesn't look like we can get much more out of this discussion than that. Time to go to bed for me.
I think you are being a bit harsh on Hazard there. What you are describing in terms of goals is not really the norm is it? Messi and Ronaldo are not normal in terms of their goalscoring returns and I don't think anyone can or should expect similar returns from anyone else except from strikers and even then it's only a select few. I also don't think that nobody would care about Messi's skill if it weren't for the goal. I think if Messi contributed 20 goals a season, he would still be rightly considered one of the best players maybe ever, he probably wouldn't be one of two 2 or 3 players who can be considered THE best ever, but he would be the tier below easily. I don't think Hazard is that good but there is no reason why he can't be one of the best players in the world with the likes of Neymar and Bale. His level of skill and ability to open up a defence as well as create chances is simply the highest currency in football, only surpassed by those who can do those things PLUS score goals.
That's what I've been trying to say all along. Also, I wasn't strictly talking about scoring, but regularly being involved in, through goals or assists. You could dribble the whole team, but if the final ball is lacking or it doesn't result in a goal, ultimately, it's pointless. Both Messi and Barcelona wouldn't have been so dominant over the past decade or so if it wasn't for Messi's goals. He'd still be an incredible player as you suggested yes, but as people have shown already, if he doesn't deliver, he is looked down on. This is illustrated by people's skewed opinions of him due to his shortcomings with Argentina. It's true it's not fair to compare Hazard to Messi etc, but that is the class of players we are talking about. Discussing whether or not he is one of the world's elite, would result in us comparing him to the World's other elite.
I'm actually a big fan of Hazard, was gutted when we didn't manage to get him but he is two levels below the best players imo. Messi in a league of his own and then a level below Cr7/Neymar etc, due to as you stated, their ability to do both. Players who have consistently won games on their own on multiple occasions.
Current Hazard > current Ronaldo easily. He may not put up the biggest numbers but he controls games and decides the tempo on his own. He made us look like 11 non league players for large stretches of our last 2 games. I imagine the numbers would flow in a league like the Spanish one, where he won't be kicked all game and have a bit more space thanks to better players around him occupying defenders.
It's not but Flo decided the BBC is untouchable, and if that's the case we're probably looking at 3 more years of them. Might as well adapt
We suffer from the fact that unless Benzema is on song, the BBC contributes almost nothibg in every aspect of the game besides the goals. They don't even pass the ball to each other - reason why benzema is so important for zidane and ancelotti before him
Problem is how long the BBC will stick around. No point spending big sums for highly talented youngsters to leave them on the bench for the next 3 years. Kovacic has been with us for 2 seasons now. By the end of the next, he either takes the starting job away from one of modric or kroos, accepts to be a bench player, or leaves. Same thing happened to Isco and he's leaving this summer.
He doesn't control games and he doesn't decide the tempo on his own.
As for his numbers, we're not the right team for that. We don't move better than chelsea, he would not fit us as well as he fits chelsea. As for not being kicked, neymar's the most kicked player in europe. Dribbling is easier in England than Spain, the higher tempo means more transitions and more space, less times facing organized defenses putting two men on you
And if he's not as effective with his dribbling, hazard offers little else at an elite level
Btw, the cristiano ronaldo transfer really did a number on you united fans