[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

It is funny how the player performances sub-forum is dominated by a player who never plays

The situation feels as if you bought a pretty expensive car, but somehow you are not happy with its look and actually never drive it. Instead of using it for a few trips you keep using your old shitty cars while the value of your new car keeps going down the drain.
Or maybe this analogy works better with your parents (Glazers) buying you (Ole) a new car you never wanted.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

If you're saying he's so shit in training, Ole's correct to not to play him then surely Ole should receive even more blame for not seeing how shit he was before he approved the signing?

Yes absolutely Ole should be blamed for signing such a dud. Manager's are to be held accountable for wasting the club's money of useless signings.

Ole maybe thinking he's in poor in training (of which you have no evidence) and that actually being the case are two different things

Well the evidence is that he doesn't actually play and players play based on how well they do in training given managers want to get positive results. And his 1st team showings. So the chances are high that he's crap in training too. Tell me your evidence for him not being crap in training - is it the CL run in another country? Is it Ole leaving out some other great player who you've seen be awesome in training given your access to such information?

I'm not saying that managers are always right. Like I said, I don't really rate Ole highly. But given VDB has been so poor when he's actually played, it seems easy to believe that he wouldn't really impress behind scenes either.

 

[IncyWincySpider]

It's possible whatever metrics the coaching staff use to indicate who is and isn't on form in training are responsible for his lack of minutes, and presumably those same metrics suggest Martial, Matic, James etc are on great form and should be starting games.

 

[HailtotheKing]

Yes absolutely Ole should be blamed for signing such a dud. Manager's are to be held accountable for wasting the club's money of useless signings.


Well the evidence is that he doesn't actually play and players play based on how well they do in training given managers want to get positive results. And his 1st team showings. So the chances are high that he's crap in training too. Tell me your evidence for him not being crap in training - is it the CL run in another country? Is it Ole leaving out some other great player who you've seen be awesome in training given your access to such information?

I'm not saying that managers are always right. Like I said, I don't really rate Ole highly. But given VDB has been so poor when he's actually played, it seems easy to believe that he wouldn't really impress behind scenes either.

Has he though? Had he played as badly as Fred and mctominay have in so many games. Donny has never been given a chance, that’s the frustrating thing. A few minutes at the end of a game is no way to build up any kind of rhythm or confidence. And when he has got full games, it’s been with a team surrounded by reserves not the proper first team. I don’t think it’s fair and it’s incredibly frustrating. But the guys also had no luck. He got injured just when pogba did. And same for the euros when he had a chance to show what he could do. The fact the Dutch even selected him though when he had barely played, should show people that he’s not a dud though. I also remember him playing pretty well for a few games. But then he was kicked out again as soon as other players were available. He plays well with Matic clearly and did do against Everton recently. So why the hell did he not play with him on Sunday? Especially when Generally Southampton press and Donny is best at resisting that. Or beating the low block as he’s experienced playing with Ajax his entire career. Because teams always have to defend against them. I really don’t get his treatment or the thinking behind not playing him. Huge shame. I hope one day we will actually get to see what he can do. Or can’t do. The point is let’s at least see.

 

[horsechoker]

It's possible whatever metrics the coaching staff use to indicate who is and isn't on form in training are responsible for his lack of minutes, and presumably those same metrics suggest Martial, Matic, James etc are on great form and should be starting games.

James doesn't get that many minutes but plays in games where his tracking back is important.

Matic probably benefits from being a senior player, living off his past reputation and McTominay not being fully match fit.

Martial is also benefitting from Cavani and Rashford being out as well as the need to get him back into form.

I'm sure metrics play a role but it's not the reason they're playing nor would they suggest they're in great form. If Fernandes is injured, the possibility of VDB playing increases otherwise he's a square peg in a round hole and all the midfield positions we play seem better suited to other players.

 

[VanDeBank]

Yes absolutely Ole should be blamed for signing such a dud.

I don't know whether to blame Ole for signing a dud, because VDB never plays, so I can't tell if he's a dud.

Tell me your evidence for him not being crap in training - is it the CL run in another country? Is it Ole leaving out some other great player who you've seen be awesome in training given your access to such information?

Are you aware the CL is an international competition Manchester United also play in? I referenced his good games for Holland vs quality opposition (Italy, Spain) as a starter that he played within days of training under Ole. I never mentioned his good CL run, or his EL run, or his 30 goal contributions a season for Ajax.

You seem to be under the impression one can play better than Wijnaldum and Verrati and somehow perform worse than all our midfielders in training? You're aware that the midfielders in those games are better than McFred and Matic, right? Do you know who starts for Holland/Italy/Spain in midfield? How highly do you rate McFred/Matic?

And given that he has had good performances throughout his career, there's no reason to believe a good game against Italy is a one in a million performance. And if there's a ghost haunting the training grounds that hates blondes from Amsterdam, that's causing VDB to be shit in training here, but not everywhere else in Europe, maybe it's on Ole to do something about it and not on the 23y oldfrom Amsterdam in his first year abroad during a pandemic.

I never said I was privy to how our players performed in training. You're the one that's dead certain VDB stinks in training. The burden of proof lies with you. Where's your evidence that a giant skippyball isn't going to crush your house in the next 5 seconds?

Argument from ignorance: "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true."

But given VDB has been so poor when he's actually played, it seems easy to believe that he wouldn't really impress behind scenes either.

It's much more likely he's playing poorly for us because he never got a run of games, let alone 2 consecutive starts, especially when he's able to play well for Holland at the same time he's only starting once every 10 games for us. VDB had much better performances when he had just joined (Luton, Palace, Istanbul), You're ignoring the fact his complete lack of form and drop in confidence came after he stopped getting a look in, which is exactly what Scholes said about his poor performances.

 

[chiz2kul]

You have to feel for the guy. IMO for the sake of his career, he needs to start looking elsewhere where he can play 1st team football. Many mid table clubs would do well with his services.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

I don't know whether to blame Ole for signing a dud, because VDB never plays, so I can't tell if he's a dud.



Are you aware the CL is an international competition Manchester United also play in? I referenced his good games for Holland vs quality opposition (Italy, Spain) as a starter that he played within days of training under Ole. I never mentioned his good CL run, or his EL run, or his 30 goal contributions a season for Ajax.

You seem to be under the impression one can play better than Wijnaldum and Verrati and somehow perform worse than all our midfielders in training? You're aware that the midfielders in those games are better than McFred and Matic, right? Do you know who starts for Holland/Italy/Spain in midfield? How highly do you rate McFred/Matic?

And given that he has had good performances throughout his career, there's no reason to believe a good game against Italy is a one in a million performance. And if there's a ghost haunting the training grounds that hates blondes from Amsterdam, that's causing VDB to be shit in training here, but not everywhere else in Europe, maybe it's on Ole to do something about it and not on the 23y oldfrom Amsterdam in his first year abroad during a pandemic.

I never said I was privy to how our players performed in training. You're the one that's dead certain VDB stinks in training. The burden of proof lies with you. Where's your evidence that a giant skippyball isn't going to crush your house in the next 5 seconds?

Argument from ignorance: "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true."



It's much more likely he's playing poorly for us because he never got a run of games, let alone 2 consecutive starts, especially when he's able to play well for Holland at the same time he's only starting once every 10 games for us. VDB had much better performances when he had just joined (Luton, Palace, Istanbul), You're ignoring the fact his complete lack of form and drop in confidence came after he stopped getting a look in, which is exactly what Scholes said about his poor performances.

You will feel so silly if you there comes no response to this comment from him, only to find out he died during a giant skippyball accident today...

 

[talking robot]

I doubt it. Ole prefers playing what he knows even when it is clearly not working

Me too unfortunately. I still have some glimmer of hope though that introducing Varane into the team will have follow-on consequences higher up the pitch, and allow us to take a few more risks (and move away from McFred). If Ole can't find a way to transition to a more expansive style, I think the writing will be on the wall for him and he'll be out of a job this time next year.

 

[Cheimoon]

You will feel so silly if you there comes no response to this comment from him, only to find out he died during a giant skippyball accident today...

@VanDeBank can also expect a call from the police in that case...

Anyway, I can actually imagine that Van de Beek does poorly in training. United's way of play doesn't fit his strengths at all, and the game is likely played in a similar way at training sessions. So it is possible to me that VDB is just a poor fit every day at United, and that Ole doesn't put him on because of that. In that case though, you'd wonder why he isn't sold. What could be the purpose of keeping him at United?

And that applies more generally. If the staff do think the system could work for VDB but he has not been able to show it in training or matches for over a year now, then why not get rid and get someone else with the money?

 

[DWelbz19]

What is it they say in the NFL? The back up quarterback is the most popular guy on a losing team.

As if the NBA analogies weren't bad enough... @Pogue Mahone

 

[Pogue Mahone]

As if the NBA analogies weren't bad enough... @Pogue Mahone

Oh man. You had to go and tag me in, didn’t you?

 

[Bastian]

I understand Ole's attempt to get Martial playing again, even if it looks bad in hindsight having just seen Greenwood have his best game as our main forward. But the reluctance to do the same with Donny, who is - given the positional options - more important to get going, is just strange. Not least against a team that has a high pressing intensity which is one of the main qualities of Donny, being calm under pressure and quick thinking.

I'm also never in favour of partnering Fred and Matic, I think that partnership doesn't work, just as Lindelof and Bailly doesn't work. It's already been shown to not be good enough.

If we end up not signing a midfielder, we're going to have to manage McTominay's fitness super carefully as he'll be absolutely crucial to us.

 

[HailtotheKing]

I understand Ole's attempt to get Martial playing again, even if it looks bad in hindsight having just seen Greenwood have his best game as our main forward. But the reluctance to do the same with Donny, who is - given the positional options - more important to get going, is just strange. Not least against a team that has a high pressing intensity which is one of the main qualities of Donny, being calm under pressure and quick thinking.

I'm also never in favour of partnering Fred and Matic, I think that partnership doesn't work, just as Lindelof and Bailly doesn't work. It's already been shown to not be good enough.

If we end up not signing a midfielder, we're going to have to manage McTominay's fitness super carefully as he'll be absolutely crucial to us.

And that's what's so annoying. Ole just repeatedly does the same thing even though it hasn't worked before. Matic works worked well with Donny. Even as recently as Everton. So why not play him? And why play Lingard for 5 mins risking injury, if we need to sell him to buy a new CDM that we so desperately need? Unless of course, Ole doesn't think we need one and is happy to keep Lingard. My faith in Ole wanes every day. But I will reserve judgement till Ive seen how he plays with Varane and Sancho.

 

[RooneyLegend]

He should just go back to Ajax.

 

[The Mitcher]

I understand Ole's attempt to get Martial playing again, even if it looks bad in hindsight having just seen Greenwood have his best game as our main forward. But the reluctance to do the same with Donny, who is - given the positional options - more important to get going, is just strange. Not least against a team that has a high pressing intensity which is one of the main qualities of Donny, being calm under pressure and quick thinking.

I'm also never in favour of partnering Fred and Matic, I think that partnership doesn't work, just as Lindelof and Bailly doesn't work. It's already been shown to not be good enough.

If we end up not signing a midfielder, we're going to have to manage McTominay's fitness super carefully as he'll be absolutely crucial to us.

Why is Donny who has shown less than Martial more important to get going? I don't believe that Martial should even be in the club anymore, but even I can say that out of the two of them, he deserves more of a chance. Donny has shown nothing apart from one goal here, Martial has a few seasons where we know what he can do when he has a good game. Although Donny does deserve this season to see if he can turn around his performances, I don't think he should stay beyond this season if he fails to. But again, he's done nothing to warrant the love of a section of fans. In what way would he change the Saints game? He'd just play it safe like he always has done at his time here.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I think he's more of a Gundogan type player. An all rounder that fits in a well drilled system. Anyways I hope to see more of him this season to make it clear if he can succeed here or not. Others might have already cast him off as a definite failure and that's fine.

He's no Gundogan that's for sure.

 

[UnitedWA]

The situation of Donny van de Beek is a real mystery. If others got him for Ole, what was the reason? And if they are so powerful to bring unwanted player into the club, why their influence suddenly stopped when he came?
If he was Ole's choice, why is he ignoring him?

 

[The Mitcher]

I think he's more of a Gundogan type player. An all rounder that fits in a well drilled system. Anyways I hope to see more of him this season to make it clear if he can succeed here or not. Others might have already cast him off as a definite failure and that's fine.

That just sounds like a massive excuse for someone who is a jack of all trades and master of none. Pure coping.

 

[VanDeBank]

That just sounds like a massive excuse for someone who is a jack of all trades and master of none. Pure coping.

At his best he's a serial goal scorer that constantly makes runs in to the box and still has the energy to sprint back and clear his goal line in the 90th minute.

Very, very uninventive passer and poor dribbler though. His ability on the ball is limited to playing simple one touch passes. Slow too and average at best in the air. His tackle and strength are alright.

I don't see how this description is "jack of all trades". It's a pretty clear profile. Not sure how he managed to suprise Ole in person or how to use him is such a mystery.

Maybe Ole cut corners and never watched the footage he was sent?

 

[RDCR07]

I seriously feel for the lad. I surprised he hasn’t made noises about leaving. It’s ridiculous the way we haven’t played him.

 

[Blood Mage]

He's no Gundogan that's for sure.

Ha he's nowhere near Gundogan's class. It's amazing how much better our players become when they're sitting on the bench. VDB just does a Tom Cleverley impersonation every time I watch him play.

 

[MattofManchester]

Perhaps its another Romero. We had a goalkeeper making game costing mistakes by himself and Ole continued to play Romero over him.

Perhaps Donny is in the same bracket.

Who the feck knows.

What is just mental is seeing Matic and Lingard who have done nothing for us in recent times get play time over him.

 

[Terranova]

This does it for me Man United boss Ole Gunnar Solskjaer insists Donny van de Beek 'will be important' | Daily Mail Online

If he really thinks VDB will be important, he would've used some more him already. Now all he does is saying VDB will be needed sometime and then never actually give him a chance.
Happened last year and now it happens again. Just sell him if you don't like him as a player, stop telling him and the press lies.

 

[sullydnl]

 

[pratyush_utd]

He really hasn't. Not for me at least. The bar is low and he has been well below it.

But you would agree the sample size is incredibly small. If we can find space for Matic then definitely VDB deserves a go. I am not saying he is the answer but if we have invested in him and will not move him on, then atleast give him some games to see what he can do.

Matic should never start again for Manchester United. Atleast not away games. If VDB is poor than what Matic offers then why are we not moving him on?

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Publicly, at least, he seems like a model pro. Lots of players (or their agent) would be going mental in the press of they had been totally sidelined. He's worked his arse off in the summer, to see chums like Lingard and Matic getting game time over him.

I feel like there might be something off the field in Donny's personal life that is fecking his head up and Ole doesn't think he is in the right headspace to play - if that isn't the case then I think Donny should force a move before the transfer window closes, before he wastes another year of his career - particularly with a world cup in summer.

 

[TheRedSeagull]

He doesn’t play because he’s the worst midfielder at the club. Its quite simple really

 

[Bastian]

Why is Donny who has shown less than Martial more important to get going? I don't believe that Martial should even be in the club anymore, but even I can say that out of the two of them, he deserves more of a chance. Donny has shown nothing apart from one goal here, Martial has a few seasons where we know what he can do when he has a good game. Although Donny does deserve this season to see if he can turn around his performances, I don't think he should stay beyond this season if he fails to. But again, he's done nothing to warrant the love of a section of fans. In what way would he change the Saints game? He'd just play it safe like he always has done at his time here.

It's not love, it's logic. Why, I already mentioned it; our midfield options.

-

On a related note, Ole saying he'll be important is neither here nor there, the proof is in the pudding. I think Ole said the same about Lingard, and I don't think he's doing anything other than exerting pressure on West Ham to come to the table or flexibility with Rice (if he's interested in him).

 

[Gandalf]

I don't think it is unrealistic to suggest that Donny simply found the PL a lot more physical and fast paced than he expected and he struggled to keep up in his first season, factor in the lack of a pre season and it is understandable and to compound things he got injured just as the absence of others had opened up the chance for him to get a run of 4 or 5 games in the side back in February. The fact that he has focused on strength work and bulking up this summer suggests that he himself feels that he struggled with the physicality last season and needed to make a change.

I don't think he would be the first player to struggle year one and then break out in year two. No guarantees but I believe the fact we have not tried to move him supports the idea that Ole is sincere about using him more this season so I would not be losing my shit just because he didn't play in the first 2 games of what we hope will be a 60 plus game season.

 

[Andrew7582]

At his best he's a serial goal scorer that constantly makes runs in to the box and still has the energy to sprint back and clear his goal line in the 90th minute.

Very, very uninventive passer and poor dribbler though. His ability on the ball is limited to playing simple one touch passes. Slow too and average at best in the air. His tackle and strength are alright.

I don't see how this description is "jack of all trades". It's a pretty clear profile. Not sure how he managed to suprise Ole in person or how to use him is such a mystery.

Maybe Ole cut corners and never watched the footage he was sent?

His goalscoring record doesn't look that good to me, 41 goals in 175 games for Ajax. Davy Klaasen's goalscoring record for Ajax is better.

 

[DON’T PANIC ™]

I don't think he would be the first player to struggle year one and then break out in year two. No guarantees but I believe the fact we have not tried to move him supports the idea that Ole is sincere about using him more this season so I would not be losing my shit just because he didn't play in the first 2 games of what we hope will be a 60 plus game season.

Perhaps, but when the shitshow of Matic and Fred was apparent for all to see, it would have been the perfect opportunity for Ole to have given VDB 15 or so minutes instead of Lingard.

 

[Mr PG]

Donny not being defensively sound is the only reason Ole is afraid to use him for now. The hope is he gets minutes with Varane and that will buy him time to adapt to the league. if he can adapt to playing deeper ala Matic...he could still become one of the best because technically , the boy has it all really. We have a habit of giving up too easily on players instead of improving them and Lukaku is a case in point. Martial is another who has it all technically but has never really gotten the help he needs.

 

[Litch]

It is funny how the player performances sub-forum is dominated by a player who never plays

The situation feels as if you bought a pretty expensive car, but somehow you are not happy with its look and actually never drive it. Instead of using it for a few trips you keep using your old shitty cars while the value of your new car keeps going down the drain.
Or maybe this analogy works better with your parents (Glazers) buying you (Ole) a new car you never wanted.

Never quite sure that if the Glazers are suppose to not be willing to spend money, then why would they buy something that Ole didn't want. Makes no sense. I actually believe people thought Pogs was going and he was not a direct replacement but an option. Pogs ends up staying, less of the need for VDB.....

 

[The Plump Poet]

The most likely answer is that in training, he doesn't/can't do what Ole wants in the specially designed drills any better than his direct competition. So it's basically poor scouting on Ole and his team.

Everything else is significantly less likely.

 

[bosnian_red]

I'm still wondering why he's seen as an attacking midfielder and if he's only seen as that, why on earth we bought him for so much.

Here's hoping he steps in for McTominay and a miracle happens and he shows he has what it takes.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Donny is no different to Pogba in that at if you want to play him in the two he will be much better beside an actual DM.

That said Pogba is still much better in that role than Donny

 

[#07]

I'm still wondering why he's seen as an attacking midfielder and if he's only seen as that, why on earth we bought him for so much.

Here's hoping he steps in for McTominay and a miracle happens and he shows he has what it takes.

My theory about Van de Beek is this: He was bought to be backup to Bruno. I reckon Ole saw how badly we ran Bruno into the ground, and the way it affected his performances, so he thought I need more depth at #10.

However, Van de Beek did not do the things Ole wanted him to do in the #10 position: Provide goals and assists like Bruno does. So now Donny's in a bit of no-man's land. I think the low point came at West Ham (a) last season, where Donny really floundered at #10. That led to Bruno being called up from the bench and producing like eight chances in 45 minutes. From that moment on I think Ole just decided to go back to plan A, which is play Bruno until he collapses and worry about the consequences later. That led to Donny's game time being massively scaled back.

Now we're in this weird position where Donny is trying to almost re-invent himself. Or, rather, trying to convince Ole that he can play deeper in midfield. When in Ole's mind he was bought to play in and around the box, create chances and score goals. I honestly think it'd be the same as trying to tell Ole to play Bruno in a double pivot. He'd just say: 'That's not how I see this player.'

 

[MattofManchester]

Pogba is defensively the worst midfielder we have. I said defensively, so let's not get into a tiff about that.
With that being said, Donny will probably not go wandering as much and will be much more disciplined in his approach, like most Ajax players.
I'm not against trying him there. I think he'd actually do well.

I can't see how anybody else will be against the experimentation either, given the alternative is Matic. Matic. Not prime Matic. Old Matic.
Need I remind you the alternative is Matic?
Who else? Oh right, Matic.

That is much more of a depressing thought.

 

[VanDeBank]

His goalscoring record doesn't look that good to me, 41 goals in 175 games for Ajax. Davy Klaasen's goalscoring record for Ajax is better.

The appearance record is inflated because of the cameos academy kids at Ajax get. Also they're not as good at 17 as they are at 22. Think it's better to look at their last one or two years (VDB played deeper in his last year after De Jong left).

30 goal contributions in a season as a midfielder definitely gets you the serial goalscorer label, which is all I said really. I didn't imply anything by it, other than that he can score goals.

Klaassen is a great goal scorer for Ajax, but their goals/assists aren't very far apart if you consider VDB played in the pivot more often (he played there behind Ziyech at times, while Klaassen never played deep during his first stint) and VDB played less minutes.

One of the reasons we paid 40m euro for him and not for Klaassen or Giakoumakis (you can guess which stat is whose and in which competition):

G	A	Min
5	3	1433
2	1	1276