I guess we disagree then. That's cool.
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
I guess we disagree then. That's cool.
I have the gut feeling this thread will be fun to revisit in the future
Hindsight is amazing. I still remember when Chelsea hired him, dozens of people in this forum describe him like the next Ballon D'or for the following decade.
I've said it before, and to reiterate - he's the most overrated player (relative to his price tag) in the entirety of the Premier League.
I think he's potentially a very good player - he sort of falls into the same bracket as Felix. Not a big goalscorer (think JF has a bigger upside in that respect) but Havertz is good on his day at controlling and linking play. For what it's worth, when we beat them at OT a couple of months ago, I thought he did a good job. He was tough to get the ball off at times, but he dropped very deep and wasn't a goalscoring threat. Similar to Felix in this sense. But his touch and link-up was good and he helped to feed the runners around him. I guess these are the qualities Arteta thinks he can tap into.
The msot overrated player relative to his price tag in a league that saw Harry fecking Maguire being bought for €80+m?
You know, maybe it's you
That's just one angle - the price tag. I was instead alluding to the general perception of a player's quality among fanbase.The msot overrated player relative to his price tag in a league that saw Harry fecking Maguire being bought for €80+m?
You know, maybe it's you
The Maguire price was horrible and there's also unanimity in how shite he is, among United and non-United fans - he's not overrated. He's rated appropriate to his qualities.
There's so many polarized opinions about Havertz that someone's bound to be right. If he succeeds, the ones who rate him highly can put themselves up on a pedestal 'knowing' they were always right, and of course vice versa.
Having watched Havertz a minimum 150 games for Chelsea and Germany I just don't rate him that highly. There's a lot of talent in him for sure, but when that talent only comes by in brief flashes of brilliance followed by games upon games of nothing but mediocrity it's quite hard to value him. Looks a brilliant player on those Youtube and TikTok highlights but less so when you watch him for full 90 minutes week-in week-out.
I think it's very much possible he'll finally click and start producing the goods on a more regular basis in a new team environment but it was clearly never going to happen playing for us so I think selling him was the right move, especially for a fee as high as £65M.
That said, I hope he fails miserably at Arsenal.
How do Chelsea actually manages to get good fees for players like him? I just don't get it
It depends how he succeeds. I’ve never said that Havertz cannot be a highly effective player in terms of production, my only gripe is the widespread notion that he’s a great footballer from a technical sense. If he turns into some sort of technical marvel at Arsenal then I’ll happily take any stick from @Zehner or any others who have disagreed.
He was viewed as one of the brightest young talents in all of football a couple years ago, he is still highly rated by lots of people in the game (Real Madrid and Arsenal both credibly interested), there is a very good argument that Chelsea has never really used him in his best position for an extended stretch of games, he has a good reputation as a hard working professional and player who will play with discipline within a tactical scheme, there is no doubt about his ability to physically compete in the Premier League, his wages/wage demands weren't out of line compared to other attackers at top clubs, and he only just turned 24.
Chelsea is playing a blinder so far in terms of selling this summer in general but I don't think getting 60-65m for Havertz is unreasonable. Its perfectly good business for them given all the circumstances involved with the player but he is someone with a lot of value.
Chelsea usually have players for a very short while, its sink or swim with them. They don't believe in second chances or watching players grow and improve like Xhaka . So it gives them easy outs for a lot of players whose true levels are not yet established, but they'll also have regrets like Salah or De Bruyne.
It also gives them successes like Hazard who they got rid of just as he started declining so you cant really question the strategy. I thought that they might follow a different approach under Boehly but it seems like they'll continue with the same approach which has (kinda) worked for them.
Reading this thread it is not exactly as if many people rate him so how is he overrated? On the contrary, many in here lauded Maguire as one of the best CBs in the world when he arrived.
I don't know, maybe it is because he was deployed as a striker/false nine for both teams. I remember Havertz as a player who looks best when you watch the full 90 minutes as he always had many smart plays in the build up, distributed the ball well, delivered through passes and pre assists and so forth.
Nothing's a given of course since every transfer can fail, even those who were deemed as sure successes as it gets. But my impression is that the better the buying club elaborates how it wants to deploy the player the higher the probability of success. And what I read about Arteta's plans with him reads very promising and is in line with what I've been thinking for a while, so I'm optimistic. People call it an experiment but in fact, the playing him as a striker was the experiment, this is actually deploying him the way he was used by Peter Bosz - and that time paved the way for him.
No offense but I don't really get how one can not rate his technique. His effectiveness is what left a lot to be desired at Chelsea but technically, he's excellent and that's always showing here and there. You can argue he's lacking focus at times or the physique to shield the ball effectively with a CB pressuring him. Maybe it is because he's not the lower center of gravity, explosive burst of pace tempo dribbler but rather the elegant "bodiless" type of player but the technique is there.
I mean, as a Chelsea fan, matches like the one against Dortmund would convinced me of that at the very least.
I genuinely have no idea how you can have this position. Havertz is an unbelievably good player technically, especially when used correctly (e.g. allowed to drop between the lines & not fight two burly CBs for 90 minutes).
https://fbref.com/en/players/fed7cb61/scout/365_m1/Kai-Havertz-Scouting-Report
The stats back it up - he's excellent in ball progression both via passing and carrying, he never hides from receiving the ball, and he's an underrated creator because everyone else in the team is even worse at finishing than he is.
Could also just be a case of the new owners / sporting leaders wanting to bring in their 'own' players before giving any long term plan a go.
It's been widely reported that apart from the first two senior players (Sterling, Koulibaly) brought in since last summer, every other player signed or extended under the current club ownership have agreed an incentive-based contract with lots and lots of bonus clauses and a lower base salary. The new contracts also include some clauses with pay decreases upon failure to qualify to the UCL.
Havertz for example was on an Abramovich-era contract which had a huge base salary and negotiating him to a similar payment structure as all the other new contracts could have been very difficult to pull off.
Koulibaly was flogged off in a quick fashion when everyone agreed it was a terrible mistake bringing him to the club in the first place, but everyone else who've now left this year (Havertz, Kovacic, Mendy, Kante + Jorginho in January) were all Abramovich era players.
Guess we'll see eventually whether it's still 'sink or swim' policy once the most prominent Clearlake era signings have had more time at the club. Players like Enzo, Fofana, Mudryk, Madueke, Badiashile, Cucurella, Sterling and Nkunku.
This is exactly my point. The match against Dortmund, a couple against Real Madrid, and Liverpool in a cup final. Even ignoring the goals scored his performances in those matches were great with the ball. But we are talking here about one or two games per season where he put everything together. You can’t put one off matches as the barometer when for large parts of those seasons, game to game his technique in general play was sloppy and nothing like the matches mentioned.
Just because he played as a false 9 doesn’t mean he was battling defenders all game, he dropped deep and drifted plenty and still lost the ball, slowed down attacks, or had a general unawareness of what was around him A LOT of the time. It doesn’t help that his ability to dribble out of pressure or 1v1 was pretty much non existent aswell.
If he performed like he did in those matches for only 30% of the time he was here I would agree with you that there is something there. But the sample size is so small that I just can’t.
I mean, I haven't watched much of Chelsea this season but the stats tell a wholly different story to what you are describing. For his position, he's among the best in terms of ball retention and progression. He definitely has sloppy days when he lacks concentration and I think this is amplified when he doesn't get on the ball regularly due to position or playing style but you're sounding as if you are talking about a completely different player to the one I got to know (and that the stats describe).
It most certainly is. No question....
At the end of the day if his technique was at the level a lot of you guys have been saying there would be no discussion about him leaving as his technical level would’ve allowed him to remain hugely important to the team regardless of output. Instead he’s just been there, occasionally turning up a handful of times per season. There’s a reason we put up no resistance to him leaving but had a far more stubborn stance with Mount, who has shown (not just in moments) to be capable of a much greater level.
We’re not going to agree so lets both agree that we simply see him differently.
He's averages around 9 goals and 3 asssits per season. For comparison thats only slightly above Sancho's contribution this last season with the main difference that Havertz was a starter for chelsea.
If not for that UCL final goal I dont think his reputation would be as high, he's one of the most ineffective players in the league.
I think is a different situation this season, they had way too many players and they needed to sell. They will be offloading at least 8-10 players this window. But I get your point, they cut their loses early as you say sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt.
Right now the number is already 10 players gone from last season's squad and we're not even done yet:
Felix (loan expired)
Zakaria (loan expired)
Kante
Koulibaly
Loftus-Cheek
Kovacic
Havertz
Mendy
Mount
Azpilicueta
The last two of course still yet to be officially confirmed by the club but I'd say the moves are close enough for them to be listed on here.
No idea what's going on with Ziyech's proposed move to the Saudi and whether it's completely off or if it can still be salvaged somehow. After that there's still Aubameyang and Pulisic to get rid off and probably a couple of loans to be made as well (D. Fofana, maybe Chukwuemeka and/or Hall).
Overall we could well be looking at 15-16 players gone from last season's team so it's going to be a massive change.
I wonder why you want to sell Ziyech when u only have Madueke as right winger.
As per bild, highest paid player at Arsenal, earning 20 million euros.
https://sportwitness.co.uk/player-t...80k-week-package-gunners-digging-deep-summer/
https://sportwitness.co.uk/player-t...80k-week-package-gunners-digging-deep-summer/
Wow. Their own Sanchez.
No way that is true, totally off our wage scale. All Arsenal reports have suggested he will be on like 200-250k per week depending on how bonuses are factored, roughly equivalent to Saka and Jesus.
Because he's a bit shite?
Ziyech's only real asset is cutting inside from the right and whipping in a cross with his left foot. Being a one trick pony might be all well and good if you're as talented as say Arjen Robben, but Ziyech is not that. He was good enough to be effective in the Eredivisie playing like that but just isn't cut out for the EPL.
And it's not only the club wanting to sell Ziyech, the player himself wants to go too and has actually been looking to leave since last summer but there just weren't any buyers on a permanent move and the club weren't willing to sanction a loan deal. Ziyech is clearly not happy playing a bit part role and his demeanour has come across a bit sulky for a long time now so it's probably best for everyone that he goes.
That said, if both Ziyech and Pulisic leave along with the already confirmed departures of Havertz and Felix then we'll definitely need another pair of legs in there.
That’s crazy, if true. Very unlike Arsenal but they have been moving kinda mad this summer, so I guess this is them now
He would be closer to Jesus but still below that. Jesus is i guess 265k with bonuses.
Saliba/Havertz/Rice will all be on 200k base - 250k range with bonuses.
I only expect Odegaard (new deal) to be closer to Saka 300k bracket.
These are all for practical purposes with achievable bonuses. Havertz could have a 5m/year bonus for winning the baloon d'or which the club would be more than happy to pay but it's not a likely scenario. I think Fernandes has a similar clause at ManUtd.
Going all in on Lego.
2nd place finish has them throwing money around.
2nd place finish has them throwing money around.
Arteta earned it in my opinion. Almost challenged the treble winning team for title let's put another effort to bigger up the squad like spending. Won't get easier for arsenal coming season. All teams knew they are not pushovers anymore.
That's their bigger challenge to overcome.
With cl give more minutes to important players legs it's wise to add quality in the squad. How they evolve coming season will be interesting to see.
If we are going to take every salary reported for a United player as gospel then we should give Arsenal the honour as well.
330k-380k a week for Kai! what are Arsenal doing? total embarrassment!
330k-380k a week for Kai! what are Arsenal doing? total embarrassment!
It makes no sense. 380k WITHOUT bonuses ? Yeah right... In a new wages group with Rice ? Rice rejected 200k and will now get double that
Creating a more than 100k gap with Saka our star player, after months of negociations for 2 newcomers ? So we're going to pay Odegaard 400k pw when he renew i guess, sounds plausible.
He was already on 300k at Chelsea, so won't be surprising that he gets 300k plus at New club.
If player is on 200k base wages then no way he will get just 250k with bonuses, bonuses will be atleast 100-150k considering they will get image rights, loyalty bonus and then some like CL, appearances and few others.
A pay cut is unlikely to happen for a player at his age, and he didn't move down the ladder to a smaller club.
Exactly. Arsenal had smaller wage bill but it won't be anymore. Lot of renewals and 200-250k will be common wage with few hitting 300k plus.
What happened with Mendy at Chelsea? I remember during the CL run everyone was basically saying he was immense.