Do you really believe in ABU decisions, officials with agendas against us etc

[Davie Moyes]

I think you are probably right. One thing I do seem to experience though, is that refs in England (not in Europa) are more negative towards us after Fergie than before. And it aalso seemed to me that that changed during the Solskjær era, until it switched back after Klopp did his quite effective mind games.

It doesn’t make sense to me that this impression should have anything to do with confirmation bias on my part, and it’s made me think about the fact that even refs have confirmation biases that may operate even when they try hard to be neutral.

The two goals that were called of yesterday, even though correctly by the rule book, were for me very good examples of goals I’d expect to stand 9/10 times under Fergie (even adjusting for the freedom from VAR then) or under the first two years of Solskjær.

Spot on mate. We all know the psychological pressure Fergie put refs which is what Klopp is doing to some extent these days.

Then in Ole's first 2 years we were getting decisions because Ole would talk openly about poor decisions post match. I think this was one of the little things he learned from Fergie. It then all changed when Klopp opened his gob.

Beyond that I don't think our players or current manager kick up enough fuss.

 

[Anustart89]

Sky's YouTube highlights of last night don't even show our 2nd disallowed goal last night, the one that was actually contentious.

And you just know that had it been the other way around, it’s much more likely to have been a talking point. This is one of the big reasons I think it’s easier for refs to call those against us. If we had beaten Boro the way they knocked us out of the cup, it would have been scrutinised MUCH harder than it ended up being, and the level of coverage that incident got shows how bad a decision that was (by the same VAR). That’s another thing. How can they put the same guy on our game four days after shafting us from the VAR room? How does that seem fair?

 

[RedSky]

Has anyone got stats for disallowed goals? Is it just a scenario where they're all hitting us at the same time rather than being stretched out over the season?

The 2nd goal being disallowed yesterday was a terrible decision. First was a soft 50/50.

 

[Bubz27]

And you just know that had it been the other way around, it’s much more likely to have been a talking point. This is one of the big reasons I think it’s easier for refs to call those against us. If we had beaten Boro the way they knocked us out of the cup, it would have been scrutinised MUCH harder than it ended up being, and the level of coverage that incident got shows how bad a decision that was (by the same VAR). That’s another thing. How can they put the same guy on our game four days after shafting us from the VAR room? How does that seem fair?

Ian Wright said after the Boro game "Why are we still talking about the handball? It was given as a goal."

 

[Anustart89]

Ian Wright said after the Boro game "Why are we still talking about the handball? It was given as a goal."

I bet he said that about Lampard’s goal against Germany in the World Cup too.

 

[Red_Aaron]

If those exact actions had been commited by defenders against our attackers there's absolutely no way on earth that either event is reviewed or referred to the referee

For me this is arguably the biggest issue var is struggling with at the moment. Surely a foul is a foul is a foul
That we're allowing attacking/defending bias to influence things is against the very notion of video reviews, it creates unfair situations.

I was an advocate of var but there's just no way it has improved the officiating of the game in any way shape or form for me. It's a nonsense

 

[Anustart89]

If those exact actions had been commited by defenders against our attackers there's absolutely no way on earth that either event is reviewed or referred to the referee

For me this is arguably the biggest issue var is struggling with at the moment. Surely a foul is a foul is a foul
That we're allowing attacking/defending bias to influence things is against the very notion of video reviews, it creates unfair situations.

I was an advocate of var but there's just no way it has improved the officiating of the game in any way shape or form for me. It's a nonsense

I used to think that VAR would lead to many more good decisions as well. What VAR has done is highlight that the problem never was the game being too fast for the on-field referee, just that they’re incompetent and don’t know (or care for) the rules of the game that they’re officiating.

That, coupled with the mate clause meaning that they’ve set an incredibly high bar for overturning a call (sometimes) just means that they aren’t interested in getting the right call on the pitch. They’re interested in protecting the referee in all instances apart from those where the error is too big to be ignored (apart from when Jota steps into the goalkeeper after fecking his touch up).

 

[Pavl3n]

I wouldn't mind these goals being disallowed, if it was the consistent decision.
We suffered goals from exactly the same scenarios.

Spoiler

 

[TheReligion]

It’s the lack of consistency now which you have to say starts to get you to question the integrity of the officials.

Jota got a penalty against Palace and in the same game Firmino was interfering with play in the first goal and it was given.

Just bizarre

 

[Heinzesight]

Did the linesman raise his flag for offside for the disallowed own goal? It was quite a few seconds after the ball crossed the line so why no VAR review?

 

[Adam-Utd]

I wouldn't mind these goals being disallowed, if it was the consistent decision.
We suffered goals from exactly the same scenarios.

Spoiler

consistency is always my biggest bug bear. You see the same situation given as 2 different outcomes every time. They always come up with a different answer for it too.

The Pogba foul would NEVER be given for us, i'm almost certain of that.

 

[Anustart89]

Did the linesman raise his flag for offside for the disallowed own goal? It was quite a few seconds after the ball crossed the line so why no VAR review?

I think the big chinned cnut took it upon himself to flag for a foul.

 

[GazTheLegend]

All I'll say is, if we had either of those decisions go in our favour from last night or Middlesbrough the media would dine out on it for 2-3 weeks minimum. Since they went against us, it's all forgotten about. Shearer would have ranted for 3 days.

That MUST have a psychological effect on any official. They're only human. Look at the response to all our ---CORRECTLY CALLED-- penalties last season. Then consider what went through the linesman's mind when Rashford was given a clear two handed shove (elbow even???!) when basically through on goal. That's the only way I can rationalise it. Officials that give penalties against us (like Clattenberg) are pretty much celebrated like heroes, it's that bad sometimes.

 

[SuperiorXI]

No, I believe the quality of officiating is on its arse and every team will continue to face disgraceful decisions. We should be talking about the game but instead most of the time it's about shitty decisions.

I find it hard to blame the players for their heads dropping as we should have been rightly 3-0 up, it's then an entirely different game.

 

[Grande]

So that certainly points towards the idea of some kind of inherent bias. If that's true do you think it was because Fergie got MORE than his fair share of calls (i.e. bias in his favour), and that then regressed to normal/fair levels after he left. Or that Fergie got the right amount of bias (none), and then after he left it then regressed to a bias against you?

I wouldn’t be the right person to assess that, with my own biases in place… could it be both even?

As a former ref, I sometimes try and assess during a match how the referee handles the 50/50 situations over the course of a game. It’s possible to notice how some refs tends to for instance compensate after a dubious penalty decision (like Moss), and some tend to double down (like Taylor). These are tendencies, but it shows me that refs are effected by their inner narratives and preconceptions. I think for instance many refs tend towards overly respecting ‘Giants’ at the top of their strength’, yet more easily ‘put in their place’ a’Giant’ in a position of weakness.

 

[Grande]

Spot on mate. We all know the psychological pressure Fergie put refs which is what Klopp is doing to some extent these days.

Then in Ole's first 2 years we were getting decisions because Ole would talk openly about poor decisions post match. I think this was one of the little things he learned from Fergie. It then all changed when Klopp opened his gob.

Beyond that I don't think our players or current manager kick up enough fuss.

It’s a fine line, though, as I think for instance Mourinho while fresh and saucy in England got the rough end of the stick, but as a winner in his second season could influence refs more positively (for him). In his time at United, his overt ways had come to work to his detriment.

 

[Revan]

You know that we have gone full Scouse when the referee makes the correct decision, and we claim conspiracy.

It was clearly a foul while being in an offside position, very close to where the goal happened. There was nothing to debate about it, it wasn’t even a particularly hard decision to make.

 

[House Mkhitaryan]

I can confirm that it is no different across the pond. Any borderline decision in United's favor will be discussed endlessly here by the US soccer media. On the flip side, poor decisions against United barely get a mention. The satellite radio station dedicated 24/7 to footy is the absolute worst here.

 

[TheReligion]

You know that we have gone full Scouse when the referee makes the correct decision, and we claim conspiracy.

It was clearly a foul while being in an offside position, very close to where the goal happened. There was nothing to debate about it, it wasn’t even a particularly hard decision to make.

I’ll repeat myself. The issue is consistency and the lack of. That’s why people are starting to ask questions regarding integrity given officials in England all seem to have different interpretations of how the rules should be enforced.

The disallowed second goal is a prime example last night and it followed one of the most bizarre and blatant handballs against Boro less than a week ago.

 

[Revan]

I’ll repeat myself. The issue is consistency and the lack of. That’s why people are starting to ask questions regarding integrity given officials in England all seem to have different interpretations of how the rules should be enforced.

The disallowed second goal is a prime example last night and it followed one of the most bizarre and blatant handballs against Boro less than a week ago.

In case of Boro, at least how the pundits read the law, the correct decision was made. It is a stupid rule but that is not the job of officials. They are judges, not legislators.

Both goals disallowed last night were correct decisions by Dean. We might cry ABU as much as we want, but both were clear fouls.

Actually, we were fortunate that Maguire was not sent off yesterday.

 

[TheReligion]

In case of Boro, at least how the pundits read the law, the correct decision was made. It is a stupid rule but that is not the job of officials. They are judges, not legislators.

Both goals disallowed last night were correct decisions by Dean. We might cry ABU as much as we want, but both were clear fouls.

Actually, we were fortunate that Maguire was not sent off yesterday.

Again it’s the lack of consistency. You don’t appear concerned by that nor able to understand why people would not only take issue with this but then start to question biases and integrity amongst officials?

 

[Nicolarra90]

We are lacking characters honestly.

Like surrounding the referee for bad decisions or asking for more clarifications before resuming play, even our interim manager doesn’t care or make noise about these decisions.

Someone mentioned smaller teams has advantage, NO its not. Watch liverpool matches and see how smaller teams don’t get any decision on their favour and even clear cut penalties.

And YES i believe there’s some level of conspiracy in these decisions to bring the club down for all the success we enjoyed at the top. The TV pundits doesn’t like to discuss these decisions while even a small foul by united player talked much.

Small team

 

[Revan]

Again it’s the lack of consistency. You don’t appear concerned by that nor able to understand why people would not only take issue with this but then start to question biases and integrity amongst officials?

People have been crybabies in football for as long as football has existed. We used to laugh at them back when we were not crap.

 

[Fitchett]

It all stems from media bias. Give a decision for United, which isn't clear cut, and the media will be all over it, claiming a bias in favour of us. Give a decision against United, even the ones as ridiculous as Friday's "accidental" handball, the two last night, Maguire's disallowed goal at Burnley last year, the non awarding of a penalty when Rashford was elbowed in the back, and it's either ignored, glossed over, or even more incredibly, pundits trying to justify Middlesbrough's "accidental" handball. You don't need to be a genius to work out which way referees will go, when making key decisions. Add in the factor that there is no retribution from the Head of Referees, and that many of them, if not all, grew up as fans of other clubs when United were the dominant team under Fergie. I'm sure there is no organised conspiracy against us, but sadly I've seen far too much evidence over the past ten years to prove my points in this post.

 

[kopviolator]

I've never thought ABU within the ref culture was real. But the last two games make you wonder doesn't it.
Anyway, it's a result of VAR. Decisions now are sometimes borderline philosophical. The law enforcers are given a platform to be clever, and boy they are taking it. Is it making the game better? More just? No, just more stupid.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

It all stems from media bias. Give a decision for United, which isn't clear cut, and the media will be all over it, claiming a bias in favour of us. Give a decision against United, even the ones as ridiculous as Friday's "accidental" handball, the two last night, Maguire's disallowed goal at Burnley last year, the non awarding of a penalty when Rashford was elbowed in the back, and it's either ignored, glossed over, or even more incredibly, pundits trying to justify Middlesbrough's "accidental" handball. You don't need to be a genius to work out which way referees will go, when making key decisions. Add in the factor that there is no retribution from the Head of Referees, and that many of them, if not all, grew up as fans of other clubs when United were the dominant team under Fergie. I'm sure there is no organised conspiracy against us, but sadly I've seen far too much evidence over the past ten years to prove my points in this post.

Yep, I completely agree with all of that.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Some of these posts about bias against us would make sense if the standard of officiating was consistently high in all matches United weren't involved in. But that's not the case. All teams suffer and benefit from poor refereeing decisions, but because you are less emotionally invested in the results of other teams it's either not spotted or it's forgotten about.

 

[TheReligion]

People have been crybabies in football for as long as football has existed. We used to laugh at them back when we were not crap.

So the lack of consistency isn’t an issue for you? Yes or no?

 

[NicolaSacco]

I wouldn’t be the right person to assess that, with my own biases in place… could it be both even?

As a former ref, I sometimes try and assess during a match how the referee handles the 50/50 situations over the course of a game. It’s possible to notice how some refs tends to for instance compensate after a dubious penalty decision (like Moss), and some tend to double down (like Taylor). These are tendencies, but it shows me that refs are effected by their inner narratives and preconceptions. I think for instance many refs tend towards overly respecting ‘Giants’ at the top of their strength’, yet more easily ‘put in their place’ a’Giant’ in a position of weakness.

I 100% agree with the first part of that. It would be naive to think there isn’t an evening up of 50/50 decisions. There have been too many from my memory for it to be pure chance. I’d add red cards to that list. If a ref has given a red and knows it’s a borderline red/yellow, even if they’ve acted as fairly and objectively as they can possibly do in the first instance I’m absolutely certain it affects subsequent incidents.
It’s difficult because when I’m watching a match between a giant and an also-ran, if I’ve got no skin in the game I naturally support the underdog. I guarantee that no genuinely neutral watcher wanted to see Utd go 2-0 up in the first half. It ruins the spectacle. The difficulty is assessing how much referees themselves show that bias. I know that the general view on here is that it doesn’t matter if refs make a mistake, but I’d wager it really does in terms of whether they are selected for the next season. We never see those discussions but I’m sure they happen at some level.

 

[Solius]

I can just about understand the first goal being ruled out, but the second?

Pogba supposedly commits a foul but we've had this allowed against us, and apparently Lindelof is 'weak'.

 

[NicolaSacco]

So the lack of consistency isn’t an issue for you? Yes or no?

could you name a league, here or abroad where there is genuine consistency? Because of you can’t (and you definitely can’t) then all you’re saying is that refereeing is an imperfect art, which we all knew anyway.

 

[cyberman]

In case of Boro, at least how the pundits read the law, the correct decision was made. It is a stupid rule but that is not the job of officials. They are judges, not legislators.

Both goals disallowed last night were correct decisions by Dean. We might cry ABU as much as we want, but both were clear fouls.

Actually, we were fortunate that Maguire was not sent off yesterday.

Pundits don’t get so decided what ruling is correct. The Boro goal decision lays in whether you think it constitutes accidental or not which it clearly wasn’t.

 

[arnie_ni]

I can just about understand the first goal being ruled out, but the second?

Pogba supposedly commits a foul but we've had this allowed against us, and apparently Lindelof is 'weak'.

That decision was bonkers then and even more so now. If that pogba one is a fk you'll find a fk at every set piece.

 

[TheReligion]

could you name a league, here or abroad where there is genuine consistency? Because of you can’t (and you definitely can’t) then all you’re saying is that refereeing is an imperfect art, which we all knew anyway.

Do you feel it’s difficult to get consistency in such instances though when you consider the help from technology and that referees are a professional body?

I don’t personally. There’s clearly issues with how rules are being interpreted and how technology is being applied.

A few weeks ago Liverpool scored v Palace when Firmino was offside and interfering with play. I’m not going to list all the decisions this season but it’s an obvious issue in the PL and the level of decisions being misinterpreted or plain incorrect is rising.

These aren’t part time referees doing the job for a few quid or out of the goodness of their heart. They are professionals who allegedly meet regularly and discuss how to interpret the law and review debatable decisions to ensure consistency across the board.

You can’t just put the obvious down to human error.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

I think this is very true. One of the differences between now and say, the fergie era (or the current Klopp/guardiola eras) is that it is much more likely that in Utd’s case a single 50:50 decision will affect the outcome of a game. I mean, how many times did goals get disallowed under fergie but you still went on to win 3-1? Probably tons of times. But the results and the trophies made those events unimportant in the long run, and way less memorable.

That's what frustrates me up about the whole 'big club bias' argument.

Decisions go against all teams, it's just that when they go against successful big teams in a game it still often doesn't affect the result as often - as they usually go on to win anyway so it doesn't get highlighted.

When it goes against smaller teams in a match against the 'big clubs' it's more likely to affect the result as they 'need' the luck to go there way more. So it gets highlighted more in the media as a big decision that decided the match and the chip on the shoulder, 'big club bias' myth gets further strengthened.

I do think, with us being the most successful club in the PL era, that that big club bias accusation is aimed more at us from the media and the public (social media), and more decisions get highlighted when they go our way and ignored / glossed over when they go against us.

But those bad decisions aren't the reason we're struggling, as we had to deal with that dislike in the Fergie era as well. We just had the competency to do so then and, without him, we haven't.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Do you feel it’s difficult to get consistency in such instances though when you consider the help from technology and that referees are a professional body?

I don’t personally. There’s clearly issues with how rules are being interpreted and how technology is being applied.

A few weeks ago Liverpool scored v Palace when Firmino was offside and interfering with play. I’m not going to list all the decisions this season but it’s an obvious issue in the PL and the level of decisions being misinterpreted or plain incorrect is rising.

These aren’t part time referees doing the job for a few quid or out of the goodness of their heart. They are professionals who allegedly meet regularly and discuss how to interpret the law and review debatable decisions to ensure consistency across the board.

You can’t just put the obvious down to human error.

To answer your question about whether it’s difficult to get consistency. If it wasn’t difficult then you’d be pointing to multiple leagues (take your pick) where that consistency was achieved. The fact that football has been accused of inconsistency across all leagues across decades and decades suggests to me that the thing you don’t consider difficult is, in fact, difficult. Technology helps with offsides for example, but in terms of the more subjective components, such as interference or affecting play, I don’t think you’ll ever find true consistency. The law has attempted to do that for the last thousand years in this country, giving themselves weeks, months, even years to analyse situations, and it’s still inconsistent. The idea that a far far less important area of life, when there are huge time pressures on decision-making would be able to achieve genuine consistency seems naive to me.

 

[TheReligion]

To answer your question about whether it’s difficult to get consistency. If it wasn’t difficult then you’d be pointing to multiple leagues (take your pick) where that consistency was achieved. The fact that football has been accused of inconsistency across all leagues across decades and decades suggests to me that the thing you don’t consider difficult is, in fact, difficult. Technology helps with offsides for example, but in terms of the more subjective components, such as interference or affecting play, I don’t think you’ll ever find true consistency. The law has attempted to do that for the last thousand years in this country, giving themselves weeks, months, even years to analyse situations, and it’s still inconsistent. The idea that a far far less important area of life, when there are huge time pressures on decision-making would be able to achieve genuine consistency seems naive to me.

Sorry but I totally disagree with you.

Consistency in the game is not hard to achieve. Even more so with the implementation of VAR. How, for example, can the Firmino interference be ignored in that instance yet we’ve had countless other decisions ruled out for far less in identical circumstances? The alleged foul last night for United’s third goal and the handball v Boro are two others which highlight inconsistencies and lack of understanding of the how the rules should be delivered. There’s also seemingly no threshold on when decisions should be referred to the referee on field or why they often aren’t.

Other sports such as rugby, cricket and tennis use technology yet you’ll be pushed to find regular disputes over decisions and interpretations of the laws of the game. You also can hear what’s being said by the officials which shows transparency. Another thing lacking within football.

No consistency and no accountability is a recipe for disaster as people will understandably come to the conclusion there’s a lack of integrity, honesty and professionalism from high paid top flight officials

 

[Mr. Ant]

I don't, it's bullshit but the standard of referees is horrible. It's not objective at all. Every referee does things differently. Var was supposed to eliminate those cases where the referees make mistakes or don't see the incident but in every game you have incidents where the Var doesn't overturn bad decisions or they interfere too much.

Yesterday that offside against Maguire was really harsh imo. I get where they are coming from because recently we had one goal against us denied by Var for blocking but in that case our defender was clearly blocked and fouled. Yesterday I think it was Rodriguez who was supposedly blocked and he wasn't even sprinting back to defend his goal, he didn't fall and after the block he wasn't even complaining.

Also that second goal. If it was foul why don't we see more penalties when defenders do that all the time? Every game you have defenders holding attackers, pushing them etc. But when it's the opposite and a attacker touches the defender it's a foul. It's horrible imo.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Personally thought the decisions last night where correct, the Middlesbrough none hand ball decision was a joke though.

 

[Lentwood]

I can just about understand the first goal being ruled out, but the second?

Pogba supposedly commits a foul but we've had this allowed against us, and apparently Lindelof is 'weak'.

Totally agree...and what is the common factor in both games? Away game at a pokey stadium against an "underdog".

Don't forget, we also had a goal ruled out against Burnley at Turf Moor last year, which Dyche said he would have been disappointed had it gone against them.

The small teams bemoan "big teams getting decisions" but they really don't. Far easier to give a decision to the underdog, because when you give WBA or Burnley a decision, 19 sets of fans and pundits agree with you. When you give United a decision, it better bloody be nailed on or you're getting hammered by 19 sets of fans and pundits.

That's just objectively true. It's more popular to give decisions against us than for us