Do you really believe in ABU decisions, officials with agendas against us etc

Sure there is. Well in the sense that their fans complain there is. You can choose to ignore all the fans from those teams who cry about the exact same thing but that's a choice, not an absent of fact.

I've literally never heard it. Stop making false equivalences, bloody boro fans think refs are 'against them.' every fan base is guilty of that. To pretend there is a culture around any club in England that comes vaguely close to the 'abu' obsession that emerged in the 90s is just being dishonest to 'win' an argument.

I've summarised my feelings in posts before, no point going round in circles. Do you want me to just agree with you? Both of your last contradictory points have just been detours
 
I'm talking purely about the response from a media station and people online. It's always going to be bigger because we are one of the biggest clubs in the world. The talking points over a United game for or against, win or lose, controversial or not will always be bigger.


You're not getting what im saying at all. I agree with what you said here. But it's not my point
 
I've literally never heard it. Stop making false equivalences, bloody boro fans think refs are 'against them.' every fan base is guilty of that. To pretend there is a culture around any club in England that comes vaguely close to the 'abu' obsession that emerged in the 90s is just being dishonest to 'win' an argument.

I've summarised my feelings in posts before, no point going round in circles. Do you want me to just agree with you? Both of your last contradictory points have just been detours

You've never heard of a City or Liverpool fan arguing decisions go against them and that there's a bias against them from officials?

We don't have to agree that's not a problem.
 
You're not getting what im saying at all. I agree with what you said here. But it's not my point

Well I suppose what I don't see is the relevance of the part I bolded in that post. It's a given that the fallout would be massive because it obviously would be given the clubs stature. To the ultimate point that the statement doesn't mean anything no matter what side you fall on in response to the question in the thread title. The rest I can understand as you see there is a culture stemming from our past success that has fostered an active bias against us from at least some refs - I don't agree with it mind but I understand the point.
 
You've never heard of a City or Liverpool fan arguing decisions go against them and that there's a bias against them from officials?

We don't have to agree that's not a problem.

EVERY team thinks decisions go against them , but every team does NOT have the ABU factor. Simple as.
Only United fans have the anyone but Liverpool feeling, but the same doesn’t apply to fans of every other team.
 
You've never heard of a City or Liverpool fan arguing decisions go against them and that there's a bias against them from officials?

We don't have to agree that's not a problem.

I didn't say that. Not sure you're even reading posts now. Let's just park it
 
No referees are just bad all across the board. The small teams get an insane number of calls going against them. The other big teams get crap calls as well we just don’t pay attention to them because we don’t focus on them, but my friends who support other teams RT stuff about this and I see it. Referees just aren’t very good in England.
 
I didn't say that. Not sure you're even reading posts now. Let's just park it

I can only assume I've misunderstood your post then. It's nothing intentional.
 
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EVERY team thinks decisions go against them , but every team does NOT have the ABU factor. Simple as.
Only United fans have the anyone but Liverpool feeling, but the same doesn’t apply to fans of every other team.

I can understand the logic there but I'm not convinced referees truly act with that intent. I see incompetence in every single game I watch and would assume it's just that in play across the board.
 
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It's time to bring in VARVAR

I like this idea. You'd have a ref watching a replay of the ref at Stockley Park making his decision for the ref on the pitch. The slow motion looping of a foul they use could be used on the VAR ref to see if we can pinpoint the exact moment a decision was made in his mind.
 
The correct decision was made based on the rule. Edit scrap that... they ignored the standard handball rule because the ball ended up in the net.

The rule is fecking madness though. If the guy scored its no goal, but because the other fella tapped it in its allowed.
 
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I can understand the logic there but I'm not convinced referees truly act with that intent. I see incompetence in every single game I watch and would assume it's just that in play across the board.
I honestly think there’s a higher threshold when a big under dog scores a goal in a scenario like tonight or involving big, last minute goals.
 
I like this idea. You'd have a ref watching a replay of the ref at Stockley Park making his decision for the ref on the pitch. The slow motion looping of a foul they use could be used on the VAR ref to see if we can pinpoint the exact moment a decision was made in his mind.
And if the VARVAR ref still gets it wrong then the final decision should go to Paul the Octopus.
 
I do think there’s some subliminal bias from some of the refs. I guess that’s human nature but I think we have been on the receiving end afew times. The most obvious one for me was Howard Webb who was accused by rivals and ABUs of being a Utd fan. I’m absolutely convinced that from those accusations he decided to take a harder line approach with our decisions. Anthony Taylor also gets similar accusations and to be honest that’s starting to smell abit fishy too, though it may just be sheer incompetence.

Overall I think the cries of bias are mostly silly tribal nonsense but I do think it would be remiss not to at least look at the correlation between huge rival pressure placed on certain refs and the amount of decisions they then give against us.
 
Absolutely not. Always thought it's total nonsense, we never heard the end of it from Liverpool fans back in the day. It's cringeworthy to even resort to it. The common theme is that both sets of fans are frustrated with an unsuccessful team.

The referees are simply not that great. They're also hounded constantly and put under immense scrutiny which makes it hard to do the job. There's a need for accountability (which there should be more of) but then there is constant media fixation which helps create a climate where fans see refs as enemies. Players see refs as enemies or at least someone to con.The culture is all wrong compared to other sports, they have no authority. So that's why we've got refs that don't know whether they're coming or going. Put yourself in a PL refs position... seriously, it's very difficult.
 
No, I believe in wank referee's who are too weak to make sensible decisions, spurred on by a system that encourages them to be cowardly.
 
So are simple mistakes. I think that would be more likely than agendas.

How do you explain mistakes when there is a video referee and you can quite often (such as tonight for example) tell instantly and obviously from the video what the correct decision is?

This is where this argument falls down for me. The whole premise of match fixing or bent officiating being unlikely or ridiculous is based on it not being the most reasonable explanation for an incorrect decision. It is also based on the (factually misplaced) belief that this sort of thing can't possibly happen in high level proffesional sport so should be dismissed as a possibility.

Pre-VAR this was a quite valid line of thought as officials had to make decisions based on live action, many of which without the benefit of a reply were open to interpretation. Now however they have the benefit of endless video replays, yet are making WORSE decisions than the ones they were making pre-VAR. And they are making them every single week. Far far too often to write off as one off freak incidents. They are also routinely getting things wrong where there is little or no room for interpretation.

This leaves you with a choice of explanations that either the referees (somehow) don't know the rules, or they do and are choosing at some level to get them wrong or missinterpret them.

The explanation of it being a "mistake" is no longer the most reasonable, as if you can see the decision you have made was a mistake on a replay and chose to still make it anyway, it is no longer a mistake, it is you deliberately choosing to be wrong. You can therefore only believe it is a mistake if you also believe that someone employed to officiate the rules of football at the highest level, doesn't know the rules of football...and that by some miracle coincidence, nearly every top level official in the country falls into this category, despite the fact that even your average casual football fan can grasp the rules quite easily.

Even if you believe this is happening by accident somehow, nearly every week, you then have to explain why nothing is being done about it when it is very clearly a big problem and damaging the integrity of the game by changing the results of matches...and despite a system being in place in VAR specifically to make it impossible for this to happen. A system which you cannot blame in itself as it is based on video replays. i.e. factual visual evidence. There is no possible way to argue that giving someone access to video replays makes it more likely that they will not correctly see what happened. This is where the idea referees are just cowards becomes weak for me. If that were the case the officiating would have become better with VAR, not worse, as the video evidence would give them more strength of conviction, not encourage them to take the easy option.

Meanwhile, the belief (regardless of VAR) that football at this level can't involve bent officiating is just completely flawed, as we know from testimonies from the likes of Clattenberg, that referees will happily referee a game to suit a narrative. Clattengerg literally told everyone he did this for the infamous Chelsea vs Spurs game where he repeatedly refused to red card Tottenham players despite the fact he could easily have ended up deciding the winners of the entire Premier League by doing so. He literally admitted that he deliberately did not apply the rules correctly for this game...and this is just what someone is happy to publicly admit. This was not an irrelevant incident. If Hazard hadn't scored a worldie in spite of Clattenberg exempting Tottenham form the rules, it could have led directly to Tottenham falsely winning the league. We have one incident currently being investigated for strange betting patterns, where the referee yellow carded a player for time wasting while their team was 4-1 up...just another inexplicably stupid mistake and amazing coincidence? We know of games in the Champions League where it has been proven match fixing took place and involved the officials. Whether anyone likes it or not, it is just a fact that it happens and the only argument is to how often and to what extent it does.

I don't believe there is any anti United agenda as opposed to United being caught up in it the same as most teams are, but I do think at this point to think these things are happening by accident over and over again, despite the frankly unbelievable level of incompetence and layers of incompetence that would require, is borderline lunacy. It is absolutely bent as feck, imo. There is too much money involved and too many ridiculous coincidences for it not to be.
 
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Absolutely not. During Fergie’s last few years, United fans thought that the refs and FA are against us, while rival fans were saying that FA is Fergie’s association cause they do what he wants. Nowadays we think that the referees love Liverpool, while they complained for every penalty we got.

In general, mistakes happen and every club gets some referee’s mistakes in favor and some against them. Fans of that club remember only the mistakes against the club, and claim an agenda. Opposition fans remember only the mistakes that went in favor of that club, and claim an agenda. Obviously, both agendas cannot be true. And considering that it happens for every big club, obviously it is a bit horseshit to think that we are the only one right.

Btw, this can happen within the same game. Take for example the Chelsea victory at OT in 2010 which gave them the title. Drogba scored from an offside position to make it 0-2, a couple minutes later Macheda scored after a handball to make it 1-2. We claim that the referee fecked us over, but never mention that our goal should have been disallowed too.

For even more ridiculousness take Howard Webb. We were always unhappy when we saw that he is gone be a referee cause we thought that he has an anti-United bias. Opposition fans were also unhappy if he refereed a match of us cause they were convinced he is pro-United. Same fecking guy.
 
It’s absolute bollocks. It’s one of those ones where they’ll change the rules again of the back of the controversy over his decision but the damage has already been done for us and has fecked us over. That being said it shouldn’t have even mattered we should’ve been out of sight anyway.
 
Btw, this can happen within the same game. Take for example the Chelsea victory at OT in 2010 which gave them the title. Drogba scored from an offside position to make it 0-2, a couple minutes later Macheda scored after a handball to make it 1-2. We claim that the referee fecked us over, but never mention that our goal should have been disallowed too.

Was this the same game where Jonny Evans jump kicked Drogba in the chest and nothing happened? :lol:

The whole “ABU” thing has always been ridiculous to me.
 
Was this the same game where Jonny Evans jump kicked Drogba in the chest and nothing happened? :lol:

The whole “ABU” thing has always been ridiculous to me.
Possibly, no idea.

I also don’t buy this that the referees are incompetent. It is just so many decisions that they have to make, and some of them are going to be wrong. No one remembers all the correct decisions that the referees make.
 
There’s certainly no agenda BUT there will definitely be some subconscious bias. We were the dominate team for 30 years when all of these referees grew up. Neutrals have always hated us for that. I think that can swing a lot of 50 50 decisions against us.
 
That was an absolutely unbelievable decision. I doubt the FA would be best pleased that one of the big draws is out though.
 
Pretend United scored an equaliser like that and imagine the fallout on itv and online. There is a deep rooted hatred of United, and combined with truly narcissistic referees wanting to show who's boss, who are also football fans, it would be absurd to think there aren't at least a handful that will be actively biased against united.

There's no way to prove it but if that was boro v villa the goal is instantly ruled out by ref, confirmed by var and nobody ever even mentions it again.
I think you are paranoid, I don't think people care much about us.
 
Obviously not. The only thing that I believe though is that a few refs (Dean is the most glaring example) do have a tendency of trying to make themselves a talking point of the game, which sometimes means that they’re making decisions that are contrarian to how a general viewer (and a general viewer of our games would be a United supporter simply because of the sheer amount of us) sees the game. But this is not something that is targeted specifically on United and it’s only the few of the worst refs out there that do that.

And a lot of them are just not very good at their job — which is why the institution of refereeing needs to be more open to changes.
 
The decisions are not specially agenda driven against us. I think there is agenda created by refs purely for entertainment reasons. However the media agenda against United is absolutely crazy. Just this morning the BBC comments section on the United is as toxic as it gets. Usual ‘makes up for all the decisions in their favour’ bollocks that all ABUs come out with anytime a decision goes against United. Social media is just as bad. And to top it off Sky now reporting Elanga received racist abuse online for the penalty miss, portraying it’s regular United fans being racist. In reality it’s loads of Instagram accounts based in India. The social media attention on United created the negatively and perceived bias against United.
 
The only anti-United bias that existed was in punditry, I’d say, where at some point there was a disproportionate amount of scousers. But this has changed now with Neville, Keane, Evra, Cole etc.
 
I don’t think there’s match fixing or anything untoward, I do think there’s a natural bias sometimes by refs who’ve obviously grown up hating United, where a 50/50 is more likely to go against us than for us. Michael Oliver is the main one. Our record with him in charge is abysmal. Jon Moss makes bad decisions for everyone, and Anthony Taylor seems to have been influenced by Klopps comments a few years back. The rest I’ve always seen as fair.

I also think refs struggle to give big decisions against top teams, but seem to love to give decisions against the big teams who are having a bad time of it, which I think we’ve received both sides of the coin on. No idea the psychology behind it, but I’ve noticed it with Arsenal where refs seem to get a pass on their bad decisions in the media and the players/managers get slammed instead.
 
The idea that a referee would prioritise their bias against a club over their careers seems highly ludicrous. This notion can only be arrived at through extreme solipsism of fans projecting themselves onto everything and everyone (which unfortunately is a common theme). Players are fans, referees are fans, journalists are fans, they are all just like me, except they have different names and different jobs. They might be apparently different, but their raison d'etre, just like mine, is to see one club do well, and have another get all the unfettered misery it deserves. These refs, they can't sleep thinking about how much they hate Liverpool, surely, and they'd give their arm up to see United rise to glory again. Except they might be from Leeds, but then it's just more of the same stuff but with different names and kit colours.

The idea that not everyone is invested in football fandom to the same degree or in the same way is completely alien to most fans, which is why they label players who pick clubs based on the best working conditions 'mercenary' and they are constantly baffled that Luke Shaw or Ole Solskjaer could play for United when they are fans of Chelsea and Liverpool respectively. It can't be fathomed that for people who are professionals in an industry, fandom isn't really a thing in quite the same way.

You may have supported a club as a child, and there might be some lingering bias for it in an adult, but that is more a sympathy than a full on affective obsession. Raised a Toffee through and through, but lo and behold, when you need to make a career decision, when it's your livelihood at stake, you do what Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard did, and become a legend somewhere else entirely. These actions are unthinkable to a fan, because they would never do it, because their loyalty is eternal, it is what makes them fans.

Referees aren't fans. Not in the same way as you or me. If they have any lingering biases of the sort that is assumed, they need to be aware of them and effectively purge them, because it can only ever be an extreme hindrance to their career. These people aren't in charge of matches so that they can watch them and be entertained, they are there to earn a living, and to do that they have to be good at it. Of course within a culture that designates them the role of a piñata, it can be a bit of challenge to understand that they aren't trying to make bad decisions on purpose. But of course they are not, and their jobs are highly performance dependant, and there's a ladder you need to climb.

If this banal stuff were understood (and it can be if you only make the slightest of efforts to place yourself in someone else's shoes), we wouldn't be talking about referees having it in for a particular club, and absurd conspiracies such as all but united would not blossom.
 
No. I believe some players have a rep and find it harder to get decisions. Otherwise is just general poor decisions.
 
I'm surprised so much fuss has been made about their goal.

I actually don't think it should be handball as it wasn't intentional and it barely affected the direction it was travelling in.

The problem is that there's no consistency with these types of decisions.

We could have a similar thing happen against us next week and the goal would be ruled out.

Either way VAR wasn't to blame, we should be able to comfortably beat Boro even with VAR decision going against us.