Do we really need a new CB, if so who?

[baanke laal]

Doesn't seem to be any experienced ball playing CB available out there, sadly.

Ball playing capability of CB's is overrated a bit these days. Their first and foremost job is to defend their goalkeeper. If they can make basic passed under pressure, that's good enough for mourinho's system. I would take Pepe for a couple of season if he wants to move.

 

[RMD83]

There's no doubt we need another CB. More than we need to be chasing Pogba. We should be after a ready made world class CB and ship out Jones or Rojo. I would be surprised if Jose felt that Bailly was the answer to our defensive problems. It's a tough position to fill, I always felt Hummels was the man for it (obviously out of the question now). Perhaps Bonnuchi if he was obtainable which I doubt he is. We need another Stam/vidic.

 

[CM]

I think whether we sign another defender is largely dependent on what happens in terms of outgoings. If Rojo and Blind go, or if Mourinho doesn't view the latter as an option in central defence, then I could see us signing one.

Sokratis looked reasonable in the friendly against Dortmund, though Memphis probably made him look better than he actually is and I don't suppose Dortmund would be interested in selling anymore players either. Manolas seems to be the likeliest option if we sign someone else there.

 

[Mark McMaw]

Jose knows we need one but its one thing needing one and another actually going out and getting one there hard to get.

 

[CS@SG]

Kalu-Billi = "Black Cat/Pussy" in Hindi, so i wrote it intentionally as I was feeling lazy to look for the correct spelling of his name. I think we have no chance of signing Bonucci, Bruno Martin Indi is attainable but he is shite.

I would have Pepe for a season or two, having a nutter arsehole in the defence would piss our opponents off in a good way. He has been in great form for the last season. He is a better defender than Ramos.

I can't remember if it is in this thread or another thread, I have read that Jose had a fall out with Pepe.

 

[GlastonSpur]

There's no doubt we need another CB. More than we need to be chasing Pogba. We should be after a ready made world class CB and ship out Jones or Rojo. I would be surprised if Jose felt that Bailly was the answer to our defensive problems. It's a tough position to fill, I always felt Hummels was the man for it (obviously out of the question now). Perhaps Bonnuchi if he was obtainable which I doubt he is. We need another Stam/vidic.

You've just spent over £32m on the guy. So if Mourinho doesn't think he's the answer then I'd say you have yet another problem with your transfer system.

 

[RMD83]

You've just spent over £32m on the guy. So if Mourinho doesn't think he's the answer then I'd say you have yet another problem with your transfer system.

He's young and not the finished article. £32m or not. I don't think Jose will consider Bailly and Smalling (presumably) as the CB pairing that will mount a title challenge this season. I don't see that as a problem with our transfer policy but a sign of modern football. Big clubs will shell out obscene money on a 2nd/3rd choice young player if they see the potential to develop them into a world class talent.

 

[CM]

You've just spent over £32m on the guy. So if Mourinho doesn't think he's the answer then I'd say you have yet another problem with your transfer system.

Nice job exaggerating the fee. What exactly are the existing problems with our transfer system, anyway?

 

[GlastonSpur]

He's young and not the finished article. £32m or not. I don't think Jose will consider Bailly and Smalling (presumably) as the CB pairing that will mount a title challenge this season. I don't see that as a problem with our transfer policy but a sign of modern football. Big clubs will shell out obscene money on a 2nd/3rd choice young player if they see the potential to develop them into a world class talent.

I'm sorry, but if United have allowed Mourinho to spend £32m on a player who he truly sees as only as a 2nd or 3rd choice starter then your club is heading for the rocks. Such a signing would not be a sign of "modern football", but rather a sign of wasting money.

Also, the guy is 22 ... the same age as Stones. He's not some 17 or 18 year-old youth prospect.

 

[SwansonsTache]

I'm sorry, but if United have allowed Mourinho to spend £32m on a player who he truly sees as only as a 2nd or 3rd choice starter then your club is heading for the rocks. Such a signing would not be a sign of "modern football", but rather a sign of wasting money.

Also, the guy is 22 ... the same age as Stones. He's not some 17 or 18 year-old youth prospect.

Spending £30m on a 22 year old 2nd\3rd choice that hopefully will improve to be definite 2nd choice, or perhaps even first choice, for a club with MUFCs economy, is a sign of us heading for the rocks?

United can spend £150-200m in a transfer window, actually in several transfer windows, you need to learn to deal with it.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Nice job exaggerating the fee. What exactly are the existing problems with our transfer system, anyway?

I got the fee from Transfermkt - if they are wrong then what is the fee?

You only have to look at the vast sums of money you've spent on addition to Fergie's title winning squad to see what's wrong with your transfer system.

 

[Devil may care]

I'm sorry, but if United have allowed Mourinho to spend £32m on a player who he truly sees as only as a 2nd or 3rd choice starter then your club is heading for the rocks. Such a signing would not be a sign of "modern football", but rather a sign of wasting money.

Also, the guy is 22 ... the same age as Stones. He's not some 17 or 18 year-old youth prospect.

You've just spent £18M on a bench striker with one good season in a shit league, it's a big squad game these days.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Spending £30m on a 22 year old 2nd\3rd choice that hopefully will improve to be definite 2nd choice, or perhaps even first choice, for a club with MUFCs economy, is a sign of us heading for the rocks?

United can spend £150-200m in a transfer window, actually in several transfer windows, you need to learn to deal with it.

Yep.

Not in net terms you can't ... or not unless you want financial calamity down the road.

 

[SwansonsTache]

Yep.

Not in net terms you can't ... or not unless you want financial calamity down the road.

I won't bother with finding the table, but there is a table somewhere in the darkness of the Pogba thread that shows that comparable to turnover at the time we will spend less on Pogba at £100m than we did for Rio.

Last year United turnover increased by 37%, this is after our barren years with no success whatsoever, and before the new TV deal kicked in. Now imagine if\when the success on the pitch returns, enhancing the marketability even further.

We play in a different commercial league than you or the rest do. Deal with it.

 

[GlastonSpur]

You've just spent £18M on a bench striker with one good season in a shit league, it's a big squad game these days.

£18m is not £32m. And he's not 2nd/3rd choice. He's 2nd choice. And it's an exception since we had no other backup striker, just players who are wing forwards.

 

[SwansonsTache]

£18m is not £32m. And he's not 2nd/3rd choice. He's 2nd choice. And it's an exception since we had no other backup striker, just players who are wing forwards.

I'll give you some homework, Glaston. Take those £18m of yours and figure out how much of your turnover it is in %, then do the same with our £30m for Bailly (yes, it is £30m.)

 

[RMD83]

I'm sorry, but if United have allowed Mourinho to spend £32m on a player who he truly sees as only as a 2nd or 3rd choice starter then your club is heading for the rocks. Such a signing would not be a sign of "modern football", but rather a sign of wasting money.

Also, the guy is 22 ... the same age as Stones. He's not some 17 or 18 year-old youth prospect.

Poor argument. At the age of 22 Jerome Boateng was 3rd/4th choice CB at city. Now at 27 he's regarded as one of the best CB's in world football and probably worth double what we paid for Bailly in the current market.

 

[Devil may care]

£18m is not £32m. And he's not 2nd/3rd choice. He's 2nd choice. And it's an exception since we had no other backup striker, just players who are wing forwards.

It's not £32M, it's £22M with add-ons to reach £30M from what I read, and Bailly would be 2nd choice at the very least, personally I think he'll start. £18M is still £18M for a guy who will only be Kane's cover and is very unproven, surely your great scouting system you love to boast of could have found a gem for a 3rd of that price to sit on the bench?

 

[CLARiiON]

I may have to agree with GlastonSpur here! United is a listed business, you are not like other clubs which doesn't have to care about profit/loss. No investor likes wasting money. If anyone says that you can keep wasting 32m on a 3rd choice defender, that won't sound good to board/management.

 

[SwansonsTache]

MUFC spent about 5% of their annual turnover on a 2nd\3rd choice defender which we clearly see as becoming good enough to become first choice in a pair with someone else.

Quickly, someone call the solicitors, this business is going down the shitter.

 

[Globule]

I'll give you some homework, Glaston. Take those £18m of yours and figure out how much of your turnover it is in %, then do the same with our £30m for Bailly (yes, it is £30m.)

Haha, transfer fees as a percentage of turnover is the new Net Spend

But yeah, Glaston's argument isn't great. We're not buying Bailly purely for the here and now - he's clearly a player we want to develop into our first choice CB over time. Mourinho has essentially said as much. That doesn't mean our defence shouldn't be strengthened further, although I'm one of those that think our defensive record last season was highly deceptive. We never looked as calm and organised as the impressive stats would indicate.

 

[settembrini]

I see zero indication we are looking for another CB. Bailly looks very promising and I expect will be able to establish himself as first choice alongside Smalling fairly quickly.

 

[bucky]

I may have to agree with GlastonSpur here! United is a listed business, you are not like other clubs which doesn't have to care about profit/loss. No investor likes wasting money. If anyone says that you can keep wasting 32m on a 3rd choice defender, that won't sound good to board/management.

He isn't going to be 3rd choice. He'll most likely start.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I won't bother with finding the table, but there is a table somewhere in the darkness of the Pogba thread that shows that comparable to turnover at the time we will spend less on Pogba at £100m than we did for Rio.

Last year United turnover increased by 37%, this is after our barren years with no success whatsoever, and before the new TV deal kicked in. Now imagine if\when the success on the pitch returns, enhancing the marketability even further.

We play in a different commercial league than you or the rest do. Deal with it.

Your last published annual accounts (published 9 months ago) showed a 9% drop in income, so I can only presume that your 37% increase is a projected annual increase (not yet an actual accounted increase) compared to that reduced total income figure.

Citing a turnover percentage figure for a single player (Pogba) cuts no ice. It ignores all the money (vast aggregate sums of it) that you've been spending on other players, with many instalment payments yet to fall due and all mounting up. It ignores wages. It ignore your loss of CL income this season. It ignores the loss of sponsorship money if you don't make the CL next season. It ignores other factors besides.

The notion that United can carry on indefinitely in the way that you are now is a fantasy.

 

[baanke laal]

You've just spent over £32m on the guy. So if Mourinho doesn't think he's the answer then I'd say you have yet another problem with your transfer system.

£32m

 

[Sean_RedDevil]

That was so embarrassing @GlastonSpur

 

[GlastonSpur]

It's not £32M, it's £22M with add-ons to reach £30M from what I read, and Bailly would be 2nd choice at the very least, personally I think he'll start. £18M is still £18M for a guy who will only be Kane's cover and is very unproven, surely your great scouting system you love to boast of could have found a gem for a 3rd of that price to sit on the bench?

Add-ons mostly always get paid eventually, which is why they are normally included in the stated headline fee. And as I've said, Transfermkt say £32m.

You say Bailly is "2nd choice at the very least". The other poster (the one I replied to) said 2nd/3rd choice. You'll have to sort it out between you.

 

[CM]

I got the fee from Transfermkt - if they are wrong then what is the fee?

You only have to look at the vast sums of money you've spent on addition to Fergie's title winning squad to see what's wrong with your transfer system.

The Guardian reported up to £25m whilst the BBC and Sky reported a fee in the region of £30m. Not over £32m, anyway.

There are plenty of clubs who have spent vast sums on their squads since that time, yours included, so I fail to see how that is a criticism exclusive to United.

 

[SwansonsTache]

Add-ons mostly always get paid eventually, which is why they are normally included in the stated headline fee. And as I've said, Transfermkt say £32m.

You say Bailly is "2nd choice at the very least". The other poster (the one I replied to) said 2nd/3rd choice. You'll have to sort it out between you.

Truth is we don't know do we? Going by what Mourinho said he is going to be playing along with Smalling, but most of us assume that he will bring in more experience, meaning he will be first sub for the pairing of Smalling - new cb.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I'll give you some homework, Glaston. Take those £18m of yours and figure out how much of your turnover it is in %, then do the same with our £30m for Bailly (yes, it is £30m.)

Citing a single player is irrelevant, both for the reasons I've already given and because Spurs have not wracked up the vast net spend of United in recent years. But wish away all those future instalment payments if you wish.

 

[Yagami]

Glaston posts more about Uniteds finances than Tottenham. It's a very strange obsession to say the least.

 

[Devil may care]

Add-ons mostly always get paid eventually, which is why they are normally included in the stated headline fee. And as I've said, Transfermkt say £32m.

You say Bailly is "2nd choice at the very least". The other poster (the one I replied to) said 2nd/3rd choice. You'll have to sort it out between you.

Spreading the payments out though make it a lot easier to budget, and I don't know if that is true, for instance several of our Martial add-ons will be unlikely to come to fruition IMO. They can say that but I don't know if it makes it a fact.

I don't see how he would be 3rd choice when we only have 4 CB's for 2 spots and that includes Rojo and Jones.

 

[SwansonsTache]

£18m is not £32m. And he's not 2nd/3rd choice. He's 2nd choice. And it's an exception since we had no other backup striker, just players who are wing forwards.

Citing a single player is irrelevant, both for the reasons I've already given and because Spurs have not wracked up the vast net spend of United in recent years. But wish away all those future instalment payments if you wish.

You specifically talk about a single player there, and when you are claiming that paying 30m for someone that might \ might not be backup then we will have to compare with someone that was brought in for the same role at your club in the same transfer window.

And with £30m I have included all future installments. The cash up front is £22m.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Poor argument. At the age of 22 Jerome Boateng was 3rd/4th choice CB at city. Now at 27 he's regarded as one of the best CB's in world football and probably worth double what we paid for Bailly in the current market.

Boateng cost City £13m, not £32m. In any case, citing an exceptional case does not prove the rule.

 

[GlastonSpur]

The Guardian reported up to £25m whilst the BBC and Sky reported a fee in the region of £30m. Not over £32m, anyway.

There are plenty of clubs who have spent vast sums on their squads since that time, yours included, so I fail to see how that is a criticism exclusive to United.

I'm talking about net spend, which is the only spending figure that matters when it comes to financial accounts. And I'm talking about clubs who are not sugar-daddy funded and can't simply ask daddy for an extra sum from his back pocket.

 

[CM]

I'm talking about net spend, which is the only spending figure that matters when it comes to financial accounts. And I'm talking about clubs who are not sugar-daddy funded and can't simply ask daddy for an extra sum from his back pocket.

Net spend in terms of transfers doesn't mean very much to be honest. The money we've spent in recent windows is reinvestment from income which the club has earned, where that comes from doesn't make a great deal of difference.

As for the latter statement, that doesn't apply to United anymore than it does to Spurs.

 

[GlastonSpur]

MUFC spent about 5% of their annual turnover on a 2nd\3rd choice defender which we clearly see as becoming good enough to become first choice in a pair with someone else.

Quickly, someone call the solicitors, this business is going down the shitter.

It's not just about Bailly - that's just a symptom of the larger problem. And actually it's 8% (not 5%) of the income as given your last annual accounts.

But if 8% doesn't impress you, then try Pogba + wages over 5 years for size ... he alone would soak up over 40% of that same single-year income figure.

 

[devilish]

You've just spent over £32m on the guy. So if Mourinho doesn't think he's the answer then I'd say you have yet another problem with your transfer system.

Excluding the Right back position which I believe we also need a first teamer for that, the first team defense look fine. Bailly is an excellent CB and so is Smalling. Shaw is an excellent LB well. The problem isn't with first teamers but with our lack of quality strength in depth. If any of those defenders get injured we would have to rely on defenders such as Mcnair, Rojo and Jones. Those are simply not good enough.

 

[SwansonsTache]

It's not just about Bailly - that's just a symptom of the larger problem. And actually it's 8% (not 5%) of the income as given your last annual accounts.

But if 8% doesn't impress you, then try Pogba + wages over 5 years for size ... he alone would soak up over 40% of that same single-year income figure.

So you just conveniently take the salary for all five years, and add them as a financial burden for one single year?

Seems legit. You should try out at McKinsey.

 

[RMD83]

Boateng cost City £13m, not £32m. In any case, citing an exceptional case does not prove the rule.

I will concede that Boateng is an exceptional case and the most biased choice to back up my argument but I still don't think that spending £32 on a 22 year old Bailly means that he is expected to be 1st/2nd choice straight out the blocks. Varane is 3rd choice at Real Madrid would they sell him for £32m, £42m, £52m? Not likely, because they have a world class CB for the future. And how old is Varane? 23. Admittedly maybe another "exceptional case" as you put it. Other fans can laugh at us spending £32m on Bailly if he does prove to be back up this season but it wasn't that long ago we spent £18m on De Gea, probably not far off the equivalent of £30m in todays market factoring in the rise of transfers. Did He look like a World Class keeper at first? No, far from it. Everybody laughed at us, they aren't laughing now.